TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: How are you doing? (pause)

CLIENT: I don't know. (pause)

THERAPIST: How about now? (pause)

CLIENT: I keep feeling as though my feelings have been hurt and as though I've been kind of what's the word I'm looking for? [0:01:06] That I'm being ignored or overlooked in situations where that's really not rational. So yesterday at church we had our Vivienneual meeting and officer elections. And...

THERAPIST: I tend to believe feelings. I just put that right out there. Okay, go ahead.

CLIENT: And so the way elections usually work is that throughout November and December, a nominating committee which is kind of appointed in secret and operates in secret interviews people in secret and has discussions in secret and puts together a slate of candidates for the vestry. And there's not a whole lot of transparency or anything going on.

And I'll just say these are the people the nominating committee has prayerfully considered and are nominating. And will accept nominations from the floor. [0:02:01] But the chair will entertain a motion to approve the slate as a whole instead of voting for each individual position. And someone almost always moves the slate as a whole to be voted on. And then that motion is approved and then we vote on the slate. And it is unheard of for anyone to even make a nomination from the floor, much less vote down the slate. And it's all just very smoky smoke filled in the backroom. Even though, in theory, we have a public election.

But anyways, last year and again, this year there were spots that couldn't be filled because the nominating committee because, of course, they only tapped their friends couldn't find anyone who wanted to fill all of the spots. Because all of the nominating committee's friends are pissed off at our rector for her mismanagement and poor leadership. [0:02:59]

So anyway, for the first time ever people were actually nominating from the floor at the meeting. And seven or eight people got nominated and no one nominated me. And my feelings were very hurt because don't people respect me? Don't people think I do good work? I've shredded myself working over the benefit of the parish. And then Dave (ph) pointed out I have made no secret of the fact that I was terribly glad to be off vestry last year when my term expired. And I turned down a re-nomination last year...

THERAPIST: (chuckling)

CLIENT: ...which is why one of the seats wasn't filled when it came time for elections. And I made no secret of the fact that I will not serve on vestry again until Julia (ph) is no longer our priest in charge. So it would have just been a waste of time for someone to nominate me. But...

THERAPIST: For someone to nominate you?

CLIENT: Yea. [0:03:59] And then the Senior Warden was preaching on Sunday on a text from Saint Paul that among other things said, "Each member has different gifts. Some are teachers. Some are healers. Some are prophets. Some are helpers. Some do physical labor. Some do spiritual labor. And all should be valued." And so Vivienne (ph) was going through the list because Paul lists off a dozen different distinct roles and responsibilities.

So Vivienne (ph) was going through and naming names in the parish of people who matched the descriptions that Paul gave. And she didn't name me. And my feelings were a little bit hurt even though Vivienne (ph) hates me. She thinks the anti-racism work I'm doing is actively detrimental to the parish. And is racist in itself for bringing up the question of race and is a waste of time and money in addition to that. And so I didn't I shouldn't have expected her to name check me was what I'm saying. [0:05:03] But it still...

THERAPIST: Of course it does.

CLIENT: It hurts being passed over. And then I found out that a good friend of mine invited a bunch of her friends to go out dancing Saturday night and didn't invite me. And I don't know why.

But anyway, there's just been a lot of feeling rejected and unwanted even though in all of these situations there are good explanations for why I wasn't included. If that makes any senses.

THERAPIST: Yea. Sure.

CLIENT: But...

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: And it's not like I could have gone out Saturday because I was working in the print shop until 2:00 am Saturday night.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: So I was training one of the undergrads on how to use a press. So I couldn't just walk out and leave. [0:06:00] I might have if it had been my job but since it was his training then...

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: ...I couldn't just walk out. (pause) And it looks some others and Julie (ph) did all the planning on Twitter and a bunch of people who happened to be on Twitter when they were planning...

THERAPIST: These are people going out dancing?

CLIENT: Yea. Invited themselves and that was all cool. And had I been online, I could have invited myself. And that would have been cool. But no one reached out to me. And so I don't know. It's a little... (pause)

And I always worry in that particular kind of situation where people are discussing something in the break room or on Twitter or somewhere where there's obviously an expectation that other people will see and read your plans. And it's actually happens quite frequently that people will say, "Oh, that sounds cool. Can I join you?" [0:07:01] If people wanted it to be a private event, they would have taken it to e-mail or something.

I always still feel a little weird inviting myself. And I don't know. I'm always, I guess, paranoid is a good word for it. Paranoid that people don't actually want me around but are too polite to say no. But that's why they're not inviting me. Not because there's a good reason.

THERAPIST: To be on Twitter.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 0:07:29).

CLIENT: But I don't know how to overcome that paranoia. And just enjoy spending time with my friends. Or not be constantly worried that everyone secretly hates and doesn't want me there. But no one has the balls to tell me to go away. (pause) [0:08:01]

THERAPIST: Well, it seems pretty clear that rejection of any kind but there are lots of kinds that can be incredibly painful. And in a way, I guess, you seem to feel like completely and painfully rejected when you haven't exactly been.

CLIENT: Yep. [0:09:02]

THERAPIST: And maybe that explains the paranoia. In that you're desperately trying to protect yourself from a situation in which you might be rejected. Or somebody might say something that would lead you feel rejected, you know?

CLIENT: Yes. But on the other hand, kind of asking my friends to reassure me that they're not constantly rejecting me is a good way to actually make them annoyed at me and not spend time with me, right? So I don't know how to would help me or help find the reassurance that I crave.

THERAPIST: Right. This is very typical in that sense. (pause) [0:10:00] I guess that would be another instance where you worry that by trying to have something that makes you feel better, you're only going to get the thing you're only going to be counterproductive. I sort of imagine you have some fairly profound belief that your friends don't really want you around. (pause) [0:11:01] What comes to mind about it? (pause)

CLIENT: I'm not sure. Except that it's true that I do deep down worry that my friends don't really want me around. But I'm not sure what else there is to say about it. (pause) [0:12:00]

THERAPIST: Let me speculate.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: And be clear that I'm speculating.

CLIENT: So noted.

THERAPIST: I could imagine you feel like you were sort of friends for the purpose of being the best at certain things. [0:13:05] Failed at that mission. And there was never any part of it about sort of making friends, being close to people, making people feel good, enjoying them and having them enjoy you. Maybe there was some part of it to do with competing with them at being better or worse or unsuccessful. And maybe I get the sense of sort of competing (inaudible at 0:13:36). And (pause) you sort of feel like that person a lot. I'm not saying you are that person or I don't perceive you to be that way.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But I could imagine you kind of walk around with that, maybe. [0:14:04]

CLIENT: Maybe. (pause)

THERAPIST: I hope it's clear that I don't really want to be right about that. But I don't know. I think that there is something to be said. (pause) [0:15:05] (pause for 1 minute) What's on your mind? (pause)

CLIENT: This is awfully petty but I'm still irritated about how the elections were done yesterday.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: I don't much like the person who got elected to the senior officer position. (pause) I don't know if my brain is trying to avoid the harder conversation we were having. By bringing that up, I though was just a function of my being tired and randomly word associating right now. [0:17:10]

THERAPIST: Sure. Well, that's fine. Totally, let's go with the random associations.

CLIENT: All right?

THERAPIST: If it emerges that you're trying to avoid something, we'll figure that out at some point. I mean, usually there's some combination of avoidance of one thing sort of pulls towards some aversion of it anyway, right? Anyway...

CLIENT: But yea, this conversation always ends with my talking about the election yesterday. And Justine (ph) who we elected to the senior position she is an obstructionist and wants things to never change. And do things the way we've always done them. [0:18:02]

And she's been on the anti-racism team and has just I don't even know why she agreed to be on the team because he's fought it every step of the way and takes everything personally. So we'll be talking about systemic discrimination in the housing loan market in the U.S. And Justine (ph) would be like, "Are you calling me racist? I can't believe you called me racist. I teach underprivileged black women how to speak English downtown. And I do so much good. How could you call me racist?" Well, you've just totally derailed the conversation and made it all about you and your hurt feelings. And I just she drives me crazy. (pause) Like my term on the vestry overlapped one year with her first term. And it was just she voted no against every new proposal anyone brought. [0:19:04] (pause)

And also she was at the anti-racism committee meeting where we as the committee decided that we would give part of the funding that we got from an outside grant to the vestry. So the vestry could do some of the training we had been doing. And she said not one word against the plan at the anti-racism meeting. But then when it came time for the vestry to vote, she spoke viciously against it and voted against it. And it's just I don't know. She's sleazy. I don't like her and I don't understand how anyone trusted her with the position. (pause) [0:20:00]

And I worry probably without any evidence or basis in reality that my church is going to get steeple-jacked. You're not familiar with the term. I take that from the look on your face.

THERAPIST: Correct. I thought a steeple-jack was the name of one of those guys who was the one who climbs up a steeple to fix things.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 0:20:36).

CLIENT: It's a play on words. It's a play with words on a high jack.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: So there's this movement among ultra-right wing fundamentalists to convert other denominations to their brand of I don't want to say crazy because I don't want to stigmatize mental illness but to their brand of broken and wrong theology. [0:21:06] I'll leave it at that. And so they'll just start attending another denomination's church and mass 20 or 30 at a time. And slowly force votes and change the culture until you have a monoculture in the town or city where they operate.

THERAPIST: It's kind of like a virus.

CLIENT: Yea. And this happened to the chaplaincy that I attended at school.

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: A couple years ago. So the school has something like 20 student-run groups for Christians on campus. And I was like (inaudible at 0:21:47) Campus Crusade for Christ and a bunch more of that ilk that are all lumped in an umbrella organization called the United Christian Organization. And they build themselves to incoming freshman as the way to legitimize Christian religious groups on campus. [0:22:02] And anyone who doesn't belong to UCO is a scary cult and you should stay away. But their statement of faith is hard right. It's explicitly homophobic.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: Explicitly misogynist. Well, they wouldn't call it misogynist. They would call it complementarian. But then...

THERAPIST: But you and I would call it misogynist. (chuckling)

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: And so the Tech Catholic Community doesn't belong. The Lutheran Episcopal Ministry doesn't belong. The Presbyterian Students Community doesn't belong. The Greek Orthodox, the Russian Orthodox...

THERAPIST: The really fringy groups. (chuckling)

CLIENT: Yea. They're totally cults. The Catholics they're a cult. They don't belong. I think the Tech Catholic community actually would belong. Except that the UCO also has a statement in there a statement of faith that you have to sign that says there is absolutely no religious and moral authority except scripture. And the Catholics have their Pope who kind of has some...

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: ...religious and moral authority. [0:23:01] So that's why they don't sign. But LEM didn't sign because the doctrine looks...

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 0:23:09) Lutheran.

CLIENT: Episcopal Ministry.

THERAPIST: Okay. That makes sense.

CLIENT: And that's why.

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: Because the whole thing was just offensive to us.

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: The yea. It was just so for the obvious reason of outright homophobia and misogyny but also it's one of the more inside baseball (ph) doctrinal stuff...

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: ...which was kind of completely contrary to everything we believe with the Episcopalians and the Lutherans. So but about four years ago...

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: ...the then current student leadership decided they want to design that because they got steeple-jacked. There were people who started to (inaudible at 0:23:51) had the attending UCO organizations who eventually got enough votes to win the vote. And so they signed on. And it's not and that was really heartbreaking for me.

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: I wrote a long letter when they invited comment from alumni on the decision. And then they completely ignored it. (chuckling) But anyway, there are 20-something new people at my church who have all started attending within the last six months who are all between the ages of 23 and 27. And yesterday one of the leaders of the 20s and 30s group announced that they would start holding Saturday evening contemporary worship services for people who might come from an evangelical background and be more comfortable with that.

And that just on one hand, I feel very strongly. But the music and liturgy and the outward forms of worship should meet people where they are. [0:25:02] And so if you've got a predominantly Spanish speaking congregation, you should do your service in Spanish. If you've got a bunch of old people who really love the 1928 hymnals, then don't force contemporary music on them. Let them play the organ with their 1928 hymnal.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: And meet people where they are because the theology and the interactions between people are far more important than the dressing. And that's something that I believe very, very strongly. And I'm partly worried that maybe this is just my prejudices against contemporary worship culture because it's all it doesn't speak to me. It doesn't suit my aesthetics and is strongly associated in my mind with churches that were abusive to me. So maybe I'm just reacting badly to the form and this isn't a problem.

But on the other hand, there are these 20 new people. Most of them come from an evangelical background who are kind of running the 20s and 30s show. [0:26:02] Those of us who have been at my church for four or five years, we haven't we even though we're part of the 20s and 30s ministry and go to their events because we've all been at the church long enough to be to have been taught for church wide leadership positions none of us have the bandwidth to do stuff for the 20s and 30s ministry. So it's all falling in the hands of people who are brand new to the church.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And the fact that there's this completely separate worship service, they're not integrating contemporary styles into the main service. Then it's on a different day at a time when the main body of the church isn't going to go. It's just it's very scary to me.

THERAPIST: Sure. Is steeple-jacking something that if it were going on in your church, that this sort of group of people would have sort of all made explicit plans together about beforehand and then gone and done it? Or is this something that just kind of unfolds? [0:27:02] I mean, how much is it a sort of a spontaneous organizing that happens and how much of it is people saying, "OK, let's go steeple-jack that one," and then they kind of...

CLIENT: I mean, it happens both ways in other cities. Like I said, it happened both ways in other churches. The way it happened at LEM, likely was definitely premeditated and pre-organized. It was astroturfed. But in other cases, it does happen organically. But either way, it's not something I want it happen to my home.

THERAPIST: I guess astroturf, like faux grass roots.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: OK.

CLIENT: So yea.

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: It's scary.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: And I feel bad even voicing any of this aloud. Because the first thing I said, I feel very strongly that the trappings and dressings should meet people where they are. And if there are people who are comfortable with the trappings and dressing of Evangelical style contemporary worship that their theology makes them makes that not safe for them, we should definitely be providing that for them. [0:28:03]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Right? But there's no way to tell. There's no way to be sure. And now I'm in the position of the cranky old person who doesn't want things to change from the way they've been done. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Or I was just complaining about that being Justine (ph)...

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: ...five minutes ago. And [0:29:00] (pause)

THERAPIST: So it's like you're worried I'm going to find you hypocritical?

CLIENT: No, I'm worried I am being hypocritical.

THERAPIST: (chuckling) OK. (pause) [0:30:01]

CLIENT: But even more than that, I'm worried that I'm being driven by fear. And right, because most people in church leadership in the country would be thrilled if they had 20 new members who are under the age of 30 in the last eight months. That's...

THERAPIST: Right. You're worried you're being a little paranoid. Yes.

CLIENT: Right. I mean, the just for me, finances and demographic perspective...

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: ...church membership is declining and church is seen as less and less relevant. And having people under 30 joining our church in huge, huge numbers like that, most people would see as an alloyed good, right?

So I don't like that I'm instantly suspicious. I don't like that my reaction is things are changing from the way they were. [0:31:05] And I don't want to be that person. I don't want to be the kind of person who's just sits there being all obstructionist and always voting against anything new and different.

But on the other hand, I don't I am worried that it isn't all in the up and up.

THERAPIST: Yep. (pause) Right, how about given the extent of your knowledge at present it's ambiguous.

CLIENT: Yep.

THERAPIST: And you're concerned that you are sort of projecting a more paranoid view onto that ambiguity.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Although maybe you're just right.

CLIENT: Maybe. I hope not.

THERAPIST: Maybe it's just a steeple-jack.

CLIENT: I don't want to be right. [0:32:01]

THERAPIST: OK. (pause) But it seems to be there's also this quality of helplessness running through a lot of this. [0:33:00] I don't know. The feelings you're talking about the incidents where you felt rejected and also with this stuff. (pause)

I don't know. I have a sense that the feelings (inaudible at 0:33:21) I guess it's just kind of all being done to you. And (pause) even though you don't like being elected, it was kind of like well, it just happened. [0:34:01] That's just what people are going to do. That's who's going to get nomination and that's I'm not saying that's literally true or that you think that it's literally true. But there's something about the feel of how you're talking about all of this. And it relates to the kind of worry or feeling of being a bit paranoid where it's like it's sort of upsetting that these kind of scary things are happening. And you're kind of helpless and happening in a way to you. (pause) [0:35:01]

CLIENT: (cell phone ringing) Oops, I thought I silenced that.

THERAPIST: Don't worry about it. (pause) [0:36:00]

CLIENT: I think not so much about hopelessness as belonging. But I don't really believe I actually belong anywhere. So I'm constantly looking for reassurance that I do belong. [0:37:00]

THERAPIST: Although it seems like, maybe, you're looking for the opposite.

CLIENT: Maybe.

THERAPIST: I mean, either way I think we're on the same page, I think.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Or what you said makes sense of belonging and wanting to belong.

CLIENT: Or fearing that I don't actually belong. (pause) [0:38:00]

THERAPIST: I do take your point that the kind of more of an issue that helplessness of kind of belonging. [0:39:00] (pause)

CLIENT: It's almost like I'm constantly putting out a fleece for the universe. And I'm not being satisfied with the results.

THERAPIST: By putting out a...

CLIENT: A fleece kind of a story about Jacob, maybe? I forget who but someone had a decision to make in the Old Testament. And said, "OK, this is how I'm going to make the decision. I'm going to put this fleece at night," like this sheep's fleece.

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: And in the morning the grass will covered with dew. And if the fleece is dry even though the grass is covered with dew, then that's a sign from God that this is what I'm supposed to do. And if not, then that there's no sign from God and we're going to stay put and not do anything. And he did it and the fleece came up dry. And he said, "OK, just to be sure I'm going to do it a second night.

THERAPIST: (chuckling)

CLIENT: "OK, just to make sure, I'm going to do it a third night." And then the day after the third night, the servant of God shows and burns a bush and sets fire to the house. And there's thunder and lightning in the sky. [0:40:06] And OK, are you going to listen to me now? (pause)

THERAPIST: So there is a sort of like anxious crisis of faith. [0:41:05] (pause for one minute) I guess (pause) [0:42:10] (pause) I see and you're kind of you're worry it sounds like is primarily that because of this sort of thing you're kind of can't trust your perceptions or intuitions about what's going on. [0:43:09] Like that your judgments are kind of going to be off.

CLIENT: Right. Or that there's no level of evidence where I'll feel secure. And I don't know why that is. (pause)

THERAPIST: But I gather pretty deeply troubling. (pause) I could imagine few reasons why. I mean, such as... [0:44:00]

CLIENT: As a speculation again?

THERAPIST: No, no. This is the beginning of a question.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: Such as that it's irrational and also because it means that in a lot of situations where you could you just won't feel secure. Is it both or something else?

CLIENT: I think it might be both but more of the latter. (pause)

THERAPIST: Well, we can stop for now.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 0:44:48).

CLIENT: Oh, I almost forgot.

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: Dave's company sold his division. So our insurance is going to be changing. Instead of Blue Cross Blue Shield, we're going to have United. [0:44:58]

THERAPIST: OK.

CLIENT: So I don't know. Clearly I should bring my insurance card next time.

THERAPIST: OK.

CLIENT: Will you still be able to file the claims? Or will I need to take over that paperwork?

THERAPIST: Let's see. That depends. The way I've been handling that lately just sort of depends on how they are about claims.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: Like for some let me see if I am seeing anybody who's currently on United.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: Because that might clarify it.

CLIENT: Yea. So we're going to be on their Choice Plus PPO.

THERAPIST: OK.

CLIENT: And also because Dave is starting a new company we have another opportunity to set up an HDRA. So if you could let me know how much our my copayments are going to be so I can fill that out and set up the HDRA. [0:46:04]

THERAPIST: OK. What I can tell you is that I mean, I'll charge you 150 minus 50 for the recording. I the last I heard the recording, like the (inaudible at 0:46:18) that was going to continue is ongoing. And so it would be 100 minus...

CLIENT: So it's a matter how much United is. OK.

THERAPIST: Yea, United is going to pay.

CLIENT: And you're not on there now.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: Yea, I'm pretty much on with everybody (inaudible at 0:46:33). Yea.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: Sure. And also I'll look at that and let you know on Thursday.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: Who'd they get sold to?

CLIENT: A startup.

THERAPIST: All right.

CLIENT: All right. Thanks.

THERAPIST: Yea. [0:47:01]

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