TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:
BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:
THERAPIST: Before I forget, I do have a name for you, of someone who's in that work for Blue Cross and very good. Do you want that now?
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Okay. I know she has some time, but I sort of told her a bit about your schedule and she said that she wasn't sure if there would be a fit. It would depend on like she said it kind of like it would be closed, but she wasn't sure. [0:01:15.5]
CLIENT: Okay.
THERAPIST: I think there's a fit between the times she has and the times that would work for you.
CLIENT: What's she like?
THERAPIST: I mean, I think very highly of her, she's very experienced, she's lovely, erudite. She's an analyst and she's very personable, she's very smart, she's very engaged and nice. Yeah. I mean, I know her like she's not somebody that I'm sort of like friendly with outside of the work context, because that's how I know her, but not so much otherwise.
CLIENT: Okay.
THERAPIST: If that doesn't work, the times don't work, or it just isn't right for some reason, let me know and it's not a big deal. [0:02:15.5]
CLIENT: Cool. I'm sort of looking forward to meeting some of these people and starting a new relationship.
THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.
CLIENT: But it's I think I still feel ambivalent about like the concrete, um, (inaudible), the therapy.
THERAPIST: In general. [0:03:19.4]
CLIENT: Yeah, in general.
THERAPIST: Do you mean like you're mixed about whether it helps or not?
CLIENT: I think I'm just really mixed about everything, in like other than therapy too. So it's hard to I guess it's hard to form an opinion at this point. I am a lot more engaged in my work and I'm really enjoying it.
THERAPIST: Great.
CLIENT: And that's um, that's a space in which there's like no there's not really any uncertainty in terms of why am I here, like what am I doing, whereas there used to be a whole lot of that in work and not anywhere else, and now it's almost reversed.
THERAPIST: Right. [0:04:24.6]
CLIENT: Like, it's a pretty neutral space. I have to interact with people, I like a lot of the people. I'm a senior member of the lab, so there's almost just this inherent sense of confidence, plus I've been through quite a bit just in terms of the ups and downs. I'm finding younger students are sort of just asking, you know, on stuff about, what I think about this and that, and yeah, there's not a lot of time. There's not like I'm really comfortable in the space, there aren't a lot of transitions, and the transitions that do exist, like gearing up to do a new thing or deciding to end something, those obviously have been painful but in some sense, when I decided to leave that sort of ambiguous set of experiments and go to the next thing, I was nervous but um... but kind of excited, and there is like a clear motivation. [0:05:51.7]
THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.
CLIENT: Outside of lab, I think because these like little cyclic, nervous, overwhelmed, agitated, anxious periods, do come up regularly. I think I'm like afraid of them. I don't spend that much time thinking about them but or I'm like sort of disappointed that they're there, and I worry that they might be there forever, and that's not how I want my life to be. But when I'm not thinking those thoughts and I am just like doing the things that I enjoy and maintaining a routine, then it's things feel good and sort of in a rhythm. [0:07:13.2]
So, yeah, to say like, like what am I looking for in my next therapy experience, it's hard to... sort of, like I don't know what I'm looking for at all in any experience.
THERAPIST: Well, what are your mixed thoughts and feelings about this therapy experience?
CLIENT: Well, it's hard to imagine myself in this way without it. This therapy coincided pretty much with a lot of other changes that I was noticing, so, um, I don't know, I guess I kind of look forward to it. It is also kind of an interruption. It definitely like breaks momentum and forces me to pause. I think the state of mind I have immediately after therapy is really unique. It's sort of inquisitive and reflective, and also a little bit like judgmental, like the way that I think I am after most interactions, like what did I talk about, what did I say, what did he say? [0:09:27.9]
THERAPIST: I see, yeah.
CLIENT: Was that a good use of the time? You know, sometimes when you said, when you've made specific comments or suggestions, then I think about those. So I think I like it, it's a nice self reflection time. And there's also like this walk back home at the end of the day, and I've always sort of associated it with a transition to the end of the week. And I think it's opened up a lot of it's opened me up to another way of problem solving and understanding things in the world, in my world. I didn't grow up with therapy as anything that anyone did. [0:10:51.1]
THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.
CLIENT: And now, I look at some of my friends or family friends, who are totally like plugged into this world and um, their children are have been seeing therapists since they were teenagers and totally like love it and it's a very critical part of their like sort of family problem solving toolkit. So I imagine that that might be true for me as a result of this experience. But that's all to say, like I don't really know what I came to get out of it and I don't really know what I get out of it at each individual session but overall, I think I've gotten a lot of out but it's hard to it's hard to say what, what actually I'm getting out of it. [0:12:06.8]
THERAPIST: Right. Is this an observational study?
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: As opposed to experimental design.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: And so even though a lot has changed and as I understand it, it must be really sort of good.
CLIENT: Mm-hmm.
THERAPIST: It's not at all clear what was responsible for what.
CLIENT: I think that's okay. I think it was an important question to me when we were deciding whether to make it possible to be in therapy more.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: But now that we've decided to go ahead with that, it's now just like an opportunity to continue reflecting and thinking a little bit in a unique way. I don't imagine that I will be able to do this in quite the same way any other time, or I hope I won't want to. [0:13:17.1]
I was a bit under the weather yesterday and it started the day before, and I had to wake up to get somewhere by 8:00 today, and there was a little bit of a question of like I don't really need to go but it will be good if I went. So those two things um, like it was almost like so immediate, like it bumped me up a couple of notches just in my like sort of nervousness and tension and anxiousness. And I think being sick or getting sick is like a really, really good um, model for like what it's like to feel anxious about fainting. Like oh, I think I'm getting sick, like more time goes by, oh I don't know if I'm getting sick, I guess I'm getting sick. I feel like kind of low energy, I feel kind of like a little bit stuffy, I feel a little bit lightheaded, and it's just like this constant like what do I feel, does it mean I'm sick? What should I do? Are the things that I currently have lined up, like consistent with healing or resting? If not, like should I cancel them, which like this whole, like, um, cascade starts. [0:15:33.7]
THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.
CLIENT: And like I noticed the last two nights I didn't sleep well and I had a lot more of the like waking up with tons of nervous activated energy, and not being able to focus or calm down, and also being really, really sleepy. And it's almost like all I want or all I need to do or want to do this whole time is just like, um, like sit and meditate or do like some kind of yoga practice, but it's really, really hard to pull myself, like out of all of the things. So it's almost like I need someone to like tell me, like okay, put your hand on the ground, like feel what it's like to have all of your fingers and your knuckles pressed into the ground, like the way that they do in a yoga class. Like for a long time, and I haven't really been able to do that. [0:16:49.3]
Also, I didn't sit yesterday because I was sick and I slept, and I didn't sit today because I got in at 8:00 but didn't make time for it.
THERAPIST: Has that affected how you felt yesterday and today?
CLIENT: I don't know.
THERAPIST: Not in an obvious way I guess.
CLIENT: No. Definitely in a is not sitting affecting how I feel, like having those thoughts, but it's not obvious. I don't think my meditation practice is something that like gears me up for the day. I think it's a long-term, over time it has formed some like mental muscles that I can like fall back on, that are really helpful.
THERAPIST: I see, so it works on a longer time scale? [0:17:52.3]
CLIENT: I think so.
THERAPIST: A long acting treatment.
CLIENT: Yeah. Then, that said, it's hard to say. I also didn't so I sat all five days last week and then Monday and Tuesday this week, but not on the weekend. And I didn't really want to. I wanted there to be like some sense that like this is the weekend and we do something different on the weekend.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: So my idea was that I would like go to the center and sit at some other time of day but it didn't happen. I think that's fine with me, but I'm not sure.
[PAUSE: 0:18:36.3 to 0:19:32.1]
THERAPIST: I guess I'm not sure what to make of it. I'm struck by the sort of bodily nature of the things you just mentioned; getting sick, fainting, you know wishing to be more like physically grounded.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: But kind of unable to get yourself there.
CLIENT: Mm-hmm.
THERAPIST: And wishing, relatedly to do like physical practice, like yoga or medication.
CLIENT: It can be a physical practice.
THERAPIST: Yeah.
CLIENT: It can be about noticing contact. [0:20:32.3]
THERAPIST: And it um, makes me wonder whether, in this sort of anxiety or agitation that you're referring to, comes from some quite physical, like embodied, it's a bodily feeling that is precisely kind of what you don't want to be so in touch with, which you know, is probably why you kind of having a longing to do something that's more physical, that would help you feel better in your body, but can't.
CLIENT: Yeah, I don't notice that most people are as observant or clued in to their bodies as I am.
THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [0:21:37.1]
CLIENT: There are then people who have some kind of physical practice of meditation or yoga in their life but even then, still, like I hear people say, like oh, I didn't realize I was so hungry or like oh, I didn't realize I was thirsty or... I don't know, like slouching, like all of these things are things that are just like they're so -
THERAPIST: You think you'd never not notice them.
CLIENT: Yeah, they're so obvious to me about my own sensations. Partially because of the fear of going the fear of what would happen if I were hungry and my blood sugar would drop. Like part of it is like rooted in a specific fear of fainting. [0:22:45.6]
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: But another part of it is just like that's how I interact with myself and the world. But then someone in lab mentioned that they like can't ride the M2 shuttle because it like after 7:30 a.m. and before 8:00 p.m., because they get really carsick. And it occurred to me that and so they were like, "How do you ride the shuttle at like 9:00 a.m. and at 5:00 p.m.?" Like how can you do it, and the answer I had was surprising to me because it indicated like a complete at ease with the physical discomfort of riding the shuttle, and like no anxiety about getting carsick, about being hot, about being close to people, like all these things that they were talking about. But it occurred to me that these people probably have a similar cascade of anxiety around getting carsick on the M2. It's like am I getting carsick? I don't know, I've had that a little bit in times in cars, but yeah, it's just something that doesn't really bother me and it might be because I've been exposed to lots of bumpy, long, car-sicky rides in India and commuted in Los Angeles for a long time, and you just get used to it. So I wonder if some of this is like I need some I just need exposure therapy or something. [0:24:39.1]
THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.
CLIENT: Like going lots of days, like being kind of hungry or being kind of sick or being kind of tired.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: And just dealing with it and seeing that I can get through it.
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: That's the sort of thing that when I say things like that around my mom, she thinks that's like the most ridiculous thing ever and it's like you should always take care of your body as best as you can. And like we have the strength to deal with things when it comes, but we shouldn't try to force that strength when it's not necessary. There is a lot of that. There is a lot of like oh, my children didn't go away to college, like aren't, aren't I afraid that they're not going to be able to like be out in the world on their own, was something that we've talked about. My brother and I both went to Vassar, which is ten minutes away from home, and her response has always been, "Well, maybe they won't learn the things that other students learn but when they have to they will." And I think that's sort of what's happening right now, is like I am being forced, for some reason, to learn all these things that it seems like a lot of people learned when they were 18, like how to be sick without your parents and how to go through rough times without the support of the family. [0:26:40.4]
THERAPIST: I'm smiling because while I appreciate that what you described is her attitude in general, I imagine she was also being kind of lovingly self-interested.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: When it came to things like where you went to college or wanting to make sure you took care of yourself.
CLIENT: Mm. Yeah, I guess she's got an objective.
THERAPIST: I sure hope not, it doesn't sound that way.
CLIENT: No?
THERAPIST: At all. It's kind of like that you miss the hell out of that actually.
CLIENT: Yeah, I do. Yeah I really do. No one else can do it. Well, except like me, I'm like the closest person I know who can do it for other people. Like a lot of times I see myself doing things for Jeremy or having thoughts about him that seem a lot like my mother's thoughts for us, which is nice but and it relieves some of the sadness or missing-ness, but not really. I've noticed that people who come from families that are kind of like really difficult to be in and were bad for them, in the way that they describe it, have a lot of a much, like easier time sort of being single minded about work and I don't know, don't have like as many separation issues or like needing to be nurtured. They have lots of other issues. I'm specifically thinking of Thomas and Joanne. Joanne, whose mom, I don't know what happened to her mom but her dad raised her and her step-mom came into the picture early and she just like wanted to get away from her childhood as fast as possible, and her husband, both of his parents died. [0:29:53.2]
THERAPIST: Oh.
CLIENT: And then Thomas's mom was a severe alcoholic and died a couple of years ago, and he has an okay relationship with his father. But they both strike me as being so fiercely self-reliant and also quite invested in their work, in a way that I don't identify with.
THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.
CLIENT: And just the fact that there are people like that sometimes makes me causes me a lot of tension; one, in the context of do you have to have a bad family to get really invested in your work. Well, I think it's a fair question. I think [0:30:54.3]
THERAPIST: It wasn't a fair question, yeah.
CLIENT: I think, I think you have a limited number of hours in the day and you have to sacrifice. You're always making compromises about how long you spend where and I would never spend like 14 hours a day at my work, unless I really, really had to, and I would do it for like one day, because that would bring me away, take me away from my family life. Or because I just like wanted to go home, to be with my family. Even now, when my lab life is kind of cooking, I still don't enjoy being there for more than whatever. [0:32:00.8]
THERAPIST: I guess like, I mean for one thing, there are different kinds of loving families, you know? Like some where people go off and do their own thing a lot and then come back together.
CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, I guess I -
THERAPIST: Others who work together.
CLIENT: Yeah. So maybe the tension is like I don't really have a model for a different kind of family and it I would like to have that model so that I don't feel like I'm making a big mistake or sacrifice, like liking my work and choosing to do it, choosing to do it in a way that is sort of like going to require a lot of time. I don't know where that comes from. I think it's both of my parents love their jobs and they've both had them for 25 years, but they never brought work home. They made it a point not to travel, and there is a lot of like, at 7:00 we're eating dinner, like and there still is, even without us there. And it's the weekend, like we're doing things together all day, and then on Jeremy's side there was this fierce like, I don't want someone else taking care of my kids, I want to take care of my kids, so Rose stayed home. Tammy, Jeremy's sister, has now made that same vision with her son and chose to stay home after finishing her PhD, and I think that's like all of and then there's like Joanne and Thomas with... And Joanne has a son and like is dying to go home to him, so I don't know why I think that she is like sacrificing her family for her work, but when we talk about it she... it seems like there is a really, really strong emphasis on career for her. [0:34:37.7]
Anyway, so all these things are like probably intersecting with like my biological clock and my like work. Like right now it's sort of like a very special time, where I have sort of anything that I can do, with like pretty much unlimited money and unlimited potential, and so it's just sort of a matter of like how much do I want to work or how much do I want to think about my work.
THERAPIST: I see, like there aren't the kind of constraints there were either, I guess, when you were living at home.
CLIENT: Mm-hmm.
THERAPIST: Or is it there will be when you have one or more children.
CLIENT: Mm-hmm. And yet Jeremy is in this situation where he doesn't really like his work and he doesn't he's not happy with anything that he's done in his whole life related to work, and he loves music but he's not really that focused or productive, that he doesn't know if he's ever going to find a job that he loves, that he can do all the time. So there's a lot of like talk at home about okay, you can have some job and do what you love on the side. [0:36:10.4]
THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.
CLIENT: But then like, but it would still be the best to have the job to have a job that you loved. This is Jeremy speaking. Anyway...
THERAPIST: The thing I was thinking about is that, I mean in a sense, that's not so far from when you're talking about your family, where like the first love was the family and the jobs, not that they weren't loved, but came second.
CLIENT: Yeah, they totally came second. There was a sense of like we all work because we want to like have a fulfilling sort of spend their time in a fulfilling way, we need to make money to support our family and we like the independence, but there was never a sense of like I can't go to your fill in the blank game, because of work, like that never happened. [0:37:17.5]
THERAPIST: Because that's not what happened to you.
CLIENT: That never happened and I see that happening with Kelly all the time. She's like missing in my opinion, she's missing a lot. But then like what if we can't have kids for some reason and what if Jeremy died, or what if I don't know, it seems like kind of a good backup, to have like a career that you're interested in, but it's really hard to make that possible without actually putting your career in a very high priority, maybe not the first. [0:38:18.2]
THERAPIST: From the way you're talking, it sounds like it wouldn't work. I mean, I'm not saying not to love your career as much as possible obviously, but if you guys couldn't have kids or if Jeremy died, it would be devastating. And like sure, in some ways it would be helpful if you loved your career more rather than less, but...
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: It doesn't sound to me like it would really make up anyway, for either of those things.
CLIENT: Mm-hmm.
THERAPIST: It does seem to me that there's this issue of like loss around a lot of the either like fear or the past or something.
CLIENT: Loss? What do you mean? [0:39:19.7]
THERAPIST: To me, like I assume that you sort of felt some kind because we were talking about your mom and the way your family was kind of organized, and you know, now you're talking about this anxiety a little bit, you know, what if Jeremy dies, what if we can't have kids.
CLIENT: I think all the time about what if Jeremy dies or what if my mom died, what if my dad died.
THERAPIST: Yeah. It reminded me of, you said you had some separation anxiety when you were an adolescent maybe.
CLIENT: Well, when I was an infant. Oh, yeah, when I was an adoles yeah, when I when I was like pretty much for my whole, until I was maybe in high school, I would cry and like make tick marks for like a hundred days, counting down to the next time we had Christmas get-together. I was attached to my female cousins, and I probably would have done the same thing if I had to be separated from my parents. [0:40:32.0]
THERAPIST: Right.
CLIENT: Like for summer camp or something, that I didn't.
THERAPIST: And the thing that I'm always waving my arms around about, to do with like the wedding, and feeling a separation after that.
CLIENT: Mm-hmm.
THERAPIST: We need to stop for now, but we'll talk more next week.
CLIENT: Okay. And I actually paid for next week.
THERAPIST: Great. We'll send you a bill this weekend.
CLIENT: Okay. Thanks.
THERAPIST: Sure.
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