TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: How are you?

CLIENT: I guess not too good.

THERAPIST: What’s going on.

CLIENT: I’ve just been really depressed.

THERAPIST: How so? How do you know it?

CLIENT: Crying. Really crying, just really being overwhelmed, being exhausted, even though I’m getting eight hours, just feeling like that all day but not wanting to take a nap, just feeling exhausted and not really caring too much about regular meals or anything like that. I’m just feeling overwhelmed and a bit burned out and instead of going back to that manic phase of getting it done or using that to cope, that’s not happening as much lately.

THERAPIST: You’ve had to sort of be “on” for a long time now and even in the middle of your depression, when push comes to shove about your academics you can rally and get yourself busy; but I wonder if right now without that pressure hanging over you you’re just kind of collapsing into it. [00:01:07] It’s a different phase without school calling you out of the house.

CLIENT: I guess. Tuesday I finally had nowhere to go – no meetings or anything – and I cleaned the entire apartment from top to bottom just immaculate.

THERAPIST: So you did rally.

CLIENT: Yeah. That was all day and I did everything, like I cleaned out the frig, all of it, so I guess it’s a little up and down. Lately in the past couple of days I just can’t even . . . so it’s not so good.

THERAPIST: Is something happening that’s worse or better or changing?

CLIENT: Maybe. I don’t know if you read any of what I sent you, but yeah.

THERAPIST: I read the first part. I didn’t get to read the whole thing yet, but I will. [00:02:00]

CLIENT: It was just that – I don’t know why, but something in me yesterday just kind of snapped. I called my sister because I was getting ready to call my mom for Mother’s Day and I just wanted to know how she was doing before I called her. Mother’s Day is always really tough for her because her mother passed away and she doesn’t always want to talk with us as much. (sighs) She was just telling me they finally figured out her plans for coming in this weekend for graduation and I suggested to her that maybe we should change the plan. My sister made reservations for dinner afterwards, which was really nice of her; a long time ago, actually before my in-laws made their surprise phone call that they were coming. Something in me snapped and I said, “I don’t want to go. I don’t want to do it.” I really especially can’t deal with my in-laws coming and Ivan is still refusing to talk about graduation and still won’t make any plans, even though his parents are coming. [00:03:06] He’s still thinking they’re going to be here on Sunday. Everybody is going to be here on Sunday. He’s completely MIA on what we’re going to do with six people and it’s just been really overwhelming for me and I just wish . . . I don’t know. For whatever reason it wasn’t like “okay, I’m a little bit frustrated with the situation. It will be okay.” I couldn’t work through it like I have been and I just got to the point where I’m like “you know what? They have asked maybe twice in two years how school is going and it’s been a five-minute conversation.” Ivan has done his “it’s so hard for me because I flunked out of grad school” thing and has just not been there, not been supportive. I said, “I know this is horrible, but I really don’t feel like going out with them and spending the rest of the day with them and pretending like that’s not the case.” [00:04:00] I guess I also feel really frustrated because the time before last that I spoke with my in-laws and they flipped out about me getting the dental work, my mother-in-law told me how she didn’t

BREAK IN TAPE FROM [00:04:10 to 00:07:21]

THERAPIST: Again, fill me in because last week you were describing – I’m just trying to think if the week has fallen off again. Last week you said the preceding week that he had made a lot of changes. There were as many days where things were totally different and he had fallen back off the wagon from the work that he was trying to work on, but that there were some days where he had made dinner, he had cleaned up – so did that stop?

CLIENT: That did stop. And something else that I’m ashamed to admit really impacted me more than it should have was Tuesday he was gone most of the day. He had his appointment and he did a couple of other things. I was home alone and I had cleaned the entire apartment top to bottom and I did it all on my own. [00:08:13] Over the weekend I had gotten excited the previous weekend because he made a to-do list, which always gets me excited. Sometimes it’s crazy unrealistic, but the fact that he’s doing it is a step, and on it he wrote “clean apartment” and I was like, “Oh, my gosh. Were you going to do some cleaning this week?” because Ivan usually doesn’t at all unless I ask him something very small and specific; and then that’s a struggle. So it never happened. He never did it. And then Tuesday he came home and I was wearing my gym clothes because I had been cleaning all day and I knew I looked a mess, but I had been cleaning all day. He just didn’t have anything to say about the apartment. I had just gathered all the trash, including a bag of trash from the bathroom, and he was like, “There’s a piece of floss stuck to your foot.” [00:09:01] If it had gone very differently, I might have laughed about it because it was kind of funny, but in the moment I was just like, “You’ve got to be kidding? I have worked my butt off all day and you haven’t even been home. You haven’t helped. You didn’t even do anything over the weekend, and now you have nothing to say about the fact that the apartment is spotless, but you’re going to critique one tiny little . . ?” It was just too much for me and I guess it did trigger in me the classic how many millions of times I’ve cleaned up the house at home and my parents did not say thank you.

THERAPIST: One of the themes that I hear you saying – I don’t think it’s something we’ve quite talked about, at least we haven’t. I don’t know if this has come up with Emily or not, but one of the things you’re saying is that there is one set of things you wish Ivan would do that, actually, you wish he would clean. [ ] (inaudible at 00:09:53) you wish he would have just done it. But another set is that okay, Tuesday comes around and he hasn’t done it. You’re frustrated and you do it. [00:10:01] You would still feel better if he could acknowledge that you did it and say thank you and be appreciative. [00:10:07]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I think that’s, in some ways, what you’re saying to say, “Congratulations. I’m proud of you for finishing school,” appreciating how much work you’ve put in and how hard this has been, what you’ve done to try to get this done. There’s not very much appreciation he shows you for you and what you contribute to the relationship and the family and the household.

CLIENT: I felt bad because, in a way, I maybe set myself up because I didn’t have to clean the entire apartment. I could have sat on my butt all day long. He probably wouldn’t have said anything. He wouldn’t have been like, “Why didn’t you clean the apartment?” I could have done that, so I chose that I wanted it to be done and I was going to do it. So I feel like, in that way, I did set myself up. But at the same time, he later I talked about this a little bit with Dr. Farrow and he was like, “Well, it was hard for me because I felt bad because I didn’t do it, so I had trouble saying thank you.” [00:11:08] I was just like, “This is so old and I get really angry because I appreciate that that’s a real struggle for him, but at the same time, it’s not rocket science. Just say thank you. You don’t have to make a huge fuss.

THERAPIST: This is where I think it might help if you sort of put yourself for a second in his psychological emotional shoes. It’s totally irrational on his part, but if I said to you, “Ramona, it’s not rocket science. Just stop cleaning so much,” you know it’s not as easy as that. There are mental psychological investments in being this way that take time to start to peel back and pull back the layers and figure out. Ivan is the same way, right? [00:12:00] It actually isn’t as easy as just telling someone to just quit it. If it were that easy people wouldn’t go to therapy, right? Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: I guess it’s just hard not to take that personally because I didn’t just do it because I let the apartment go during finals, which I felt a tiny bit good about doing, letting it go. It wasn’t just that, but I guess if I came home and someone had done that for me, what a loving, nice thing to do for someone.

THERAPIST: Yes. But you don’t live in a place of such profound shame around your incapacity to follow through on things. So when he saw you do that it sounds like – I’m not saying this excuses it – but I think there’s a way you think sort of “what an idiot he is that he can’t just say thank you.” That’s what he’s working on to be able to say, “Setting my feelings aside that I wish that I had graduated from a Master’s program also, I still think that is so cool and I’m so happy for you and I’m so proud of you.” [00:13:02] He has a hard time doing that because he feels so ashamed of his own self. He can’t even muster up the words to show appreciation for that. It sounds like the same thing goes for cleaning the house. He probably walked in and felt so mortified and embarrassed and humiliated that you had done it and he hadn’t, that to say “I appreciate you; thank you for doing this” sort of means labeling the thing that he didn’t do for him. Again, it’s not an excuse. It doesn’t mean he has to get away with doing that. That’s something he’s got to work on in his therapy, just as it is something you’ve got to work on – your own self-loathing and the way that you see that as a sign of him not loving you or the profound depression that kicks in. It’s not as easy as just saying “quit doing that” or “quit feeling that way.” That’s what he’s working on, too. [00:13:56]

CLIENT: It’s horrible that I feel exhausted with saying “Okay, I know you’re struggling with it.”

THERAPIST: “Working on it.”

CLIENT: Right. Quite frankly, my entire life my dad’s catch phrase has been “I’m working on it” and I know what that means. It’s not even on the list. It’s not even on his radar and it’s not because he doesn’t love me, but it really, really does suck, quite frankly, to be in a relationship with anyone, whether you choose to or whether it’s a biological one, where they tell you how deeply they love you and all of that; and then they’re just not going to show it and you have to accept it. I can’t accept it. I feel incredibly responsible for it. I feel like it’s my fault that he’s this way. I feel like I’m responsible to fix it.

THERAPIST: So that’s the part we’ve got to work on in you because you’re not responsible for the separate minds of other people.

CLIENT: It’s just really hard to look at it and then take a step back and say, “Oh, okay. He did not say thank you because . . .” It’s just too much to label it that way all the time. [00:15:03] I don’t have the self – whatever – to put that on someone else. I always put it on myself.

THERAPIST: Okay, so just to clarify. I don’t mean you only say, “Oh, he’s working on it so I should expect nothing.” I actually think you should have expectations. I don’t think he’s going to change unless you have certain expectations or a desire to have this change in him. I don’t think you would change in some ways unless he said, “Ramona, this is what’s in you that’s hurting me about the relationship. Let me put it into words. Let me try to communicate what I’m feeling. I feel like you’re critical.” This is where we just talk about what is the alternative pathway besides hammering into him and then feeling like you have to give up, like “there’s nothing I can do here” or “I should just be forgiving and be empathic and let him be this way,” because that’s invalidating to you. Do you know what I mean? [00:15:59] That’s not a solution either to just tell yourself, “Well, I’m just supposed to be more patient and more patient and more patient.” We’re working on this. We’ve always said we work on this for a while and see what happens. If six months go by and there’s no change, you start to get a sense that he really is going to be like your parents and it’s never going to change.

CLIENT: I admit this is a problem and I’m not justifying it, but I really am hung up and I really, to this day, in talking to my parents and thinking about their lifestyle, I still have this overwhelming urge – like if I lived close to them I would go home and I would clean the house and I would coax my dad to come home and take care of his health. And I would coax my mom to not label her staying the house 24-7 as being shy. I feel incredibly responsible. I feel like if they don’t get over those things, I feel like if Ivan doesn’t get over these things, that it’s my fault, that I didn’t do enough. [00:16:59] And when he doesn’t say thank you or he doesn’t pick up after himself or he doesn’t say something nice because I finished grad school, I don’t feel like he’s really struggling with some stuff and I need to be patient, I feel like I’m coaxing him to love me and I’m just becoming more and more convinced that he’s in this relationship because he really needs somebody to take care of him and help him through this phase. And maybe, in fact, once he did gain some of those skills initially – to be a more independent person – maybe he would look at me and say, “No, I appreciate you helping me through it, but I didn’t love you. I needed you and I just . . . “ It does not feel good or loving. It just doesn’t most of the time.

THERAPIST: It sounds like it feels more like a parent/child relationship rather than equal peer partner relationship. [00:17:58]

CLIENT: But that’s something that I keep trying to bring up in couples and it’s like it’s not getting through. It’s like, if anything, we don’t talk about what’s going on with Ivan, we talk about if I’m being less critical, if I’m treating him less like he needs the help. It’s just maddening to me because I don’t feel like the things that I do for him or coax him to do, I don’t feel like I’m doing it just because I’m a control freak, although I have some control issues, I feel like there really is a valid basis for saying “it’s really not happening” – not “it would happen if I could just back off. It would happen anyway.” I don’t think it would because it’s not happening even when I am on his case. It’s literally driving me crazy.

THERAPIST: You sound like you’re in a more stuck place around it this week than last week. Last week you were really making some headway.

CLIENT: I do and I really feel bad about that.

THERAPIST: So that’s what I’m still trying to understand – what happened between last week and this week? Is it that the improvements started not to shine through as much? [00:19:05]

CLIENT: I think it’s that. I think it just came to a turning point where him not making plans and not talking about graduation this week. For whatever reason, it snapped in me and now I really do need to have plans I place and it’s not in the distance – and he’s still MIA. I really . . . I don’t know. It snapped and instead of it being about he won’t make plans for one weekend, it’s about he wouldn’t make plans for two years. It’s about he wasn’t supportive for two years. He just wasn’t there, couldn’t get his crap together – still.

THERAPIST: It sort of snowballed into everything about how he’s failed you.

CLIENT: It is and it’s now this resentment of the expectations for what I had for these two years in him are completely not there. [00:20:01] I don’t like being disappointed. It’s not like I feel like I’m looking for him to fail, but he really, really has been so many things.

THERAPIST: So somehow, Ramona, I just want to observe that rather than it feeling – last week is one sample week – it felt like there was some space inside you to sort of start looking at the relationship from this point forward. And I’m just giving you a description of something; there’s no value judgment here. This week it sounds like your mind has moved back to the last two years and you’re feeling very, very stirred by all of the things there are to be angry and resentful about in the last two years. So something has triggered the looking-back anger. [00:20:59] And, again, I say that this doesn’t mean that you shouldn’t have that anger, but do you see how there’s something different about keeping the forward momentum and trying to see the changes that have happened since you started the couple’s therapy and individual therapies versus looking back at the last two years.

CLIENT: Yeah, but I guess I feel like I’m coming to the end of the two years of my program and at the end of your degree, don’t you not really look back upon it?

THERAPIST: That’s a good point. You’re in a kind of reflective space about the last two years of your life. The turning point of your life means you look back, which may mean new frustrations

BREAK IN TAPE FROM [00:21:43 to 00:26:12]

CLIENT: “Are you looking for new jobs?” or “how is it going? How are you feeling? It’s going to be like it’s a fairy tale and they’re going to be like “Ivan is so supportive of you. Isn’t this wonderful? How lucky you are.” It’s going to be too much and they’re going to be on me about the job because they expect me to earn the money, evidently, and I just can’t do it.

THERAPIST: Okay. Take a deep breath for a second. There is a lot of feeling, even talking about it. So much feeling. You used the expression “cutting off your nose to spite your face.” This is a question I have: If you were to cancel the weekend, would you regret it or would you feel like “that would be much better for me. Even three months later I would feel glad that I did that.” [00:27:00] In other words, is it cutting off your nose to spite your face or isn’t it? What do you think?

CLIENT: I would regret it if I didn’t go at all, obviously.

THERAPIST: Didn’t go out to dinner, you mean.

CLIENT: No, no. I mean if I didn’t go to graduation. I would regret that, but he’s out of it and I’m so ashamed that I said to my sister, “Maybe just you and I could go out with mom and dad Friday night and let that be it.” And then Saturday people can just eat whatever at my apartment. I can cook something ahead and that way I get out of the dinner with my in-laws and everybody all at once and, quite frankly, Ivan. I know this is horrible. I know it’s horrible, but I’m just so mad at him right now and I keep telling myself “just get over it and let it go. Don’t think about it right now.” I can’t. I’m so unbelievably, white-knuckle furious with him. I know that’s not healthy. [00:27:55]

THERAPIST: Actually, to me one of the things that it is, is that it’s honing in on where the biggest part of the problem is because, in a way, once you said that –what if you’d had a week this past week where Ivan was really on the ball, really impressing you with the things he was doing? [00:28:10] You might not quite feel this way, I would guess. Is that right? In other words, a lot of people, when they’re mad at their significant other, get mad at their in-laws even more so. It sort of feels like “why do I even want to have anything to do with this person?” Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: And I definitely – this is wrong, too, probably – but I blame them for his shame because he’s telling me how much they’ve shamed him and the comment thing. I blame them for that. I blame them for him avoiding. I blame them for not acknowledging it right now. I blame them for the times when I’ve called my father-in-law and said, “This is going on with Ivan. I’m so scared,” and he never called me back, didn’t care if I was doing okay. Again, I’m really angry at this, so I’m definitely angry with them because I’m angry with Ivan, but it’s also what they’ve been doing around the issues. I blame them, whether or not that’s right. [00:29:01]

THERAPIST: I think it’s totally, totally right. The problem is – does acting on that anger with them make things better or worse for you? Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: No, I know it’s not productive. I know it’s not healthy. I know it’s not personal. I feel like a horrible Christian. I feel like a horrible person, in general, because, of course, the reality is . . .

THERAPIST: No, no, no. Wait. I want to be clear. I’m not talking about being like “you need to be a kind person to them because that’s what being a good person is.” I’m actually thinking for a second being selfish for you. What is actually in Ramona’s best interest about navigating this weekend? That’s what I’m interested in right now. So in the moment your emotional mind might say it’s really good for you to tell them to go to hell and get away for the weekend or “I’m canceling dinner.” Your rational mind might say actually, Ramona, that’s not good for you because then it makes things even worse after this weekend is over. [00:30:01] It might mean that then there’s even more tension and the next time it’s harder to see them. You might feel better about the whole thing if you can just suck it up and get through it. And that may be wrong. Maybe your rational mind says they’re such horrible people that you don’t ever want to see them again and you have to have the relationship with Ivan, but not them. Do you know what I mean? Is it a time to be politically bite-your-tongue or not? That’s the question.

CLIENT: No, I absolutely have to. My mom has told me . . .

THERAPIST: I’m not saying you have to, just so you know.

CLIENT: No, no. I’m saying that I do.

THERAPIST: I’m only thinking that it might be helpful for you to do that if it is helpful for you to do that. Do you know what I mean? If six months from now you mean that your relationship is in a better place because you kind of got through the weekend without ruffling too many feathers, then I think it’s good for you. If in six months you think that makes you feel even worse about yourself that you didn’t stand up for what you believed in and said “I just can’t do this right now,” then I think you should cancel the weekend. Do you know what I mean? [00:30:59]

CLIENT: Yeah. But the problem is that my mother-in-law wants us both to come to New Orleans two weeks after graduation for a surprise 50th for my father-in-law and Ivan, of course, feels that it’s a family thing and we should both go. We should both go for the whole weekend. Right now we can’t afford it. Things are really, really bad money-wise and I am so sick to death of acknowledging that and dealing with it. I’m like, “Maybe you should go,” and he’s like, “No, that would be coffin nails in in our marriage.” I was like, “Wow, that’s not fair.” I know that this is also horrible, but I’m still holding a grudge about my father-in-law saying how he is deathly afraid of me. (sighs) And that he thinks I’m so judgmental and harsh about his son. I’m like, “Maybe you should just go by yourself,” because that’s what he wants anyway, most likely. Even if he would be happy if I was there, he’ll be fine and we’ll get some space. Whether or not things are going great or lousy, we’ll get some space which – he’s home all the time because he works until noon or 1:00 three days a week and then just in the evening on Saturday. [00:32:08] So he’s home all the time and I’m not getting any space, especially now that school is done and I’m just dying to get a job. (chuckles) Maybe all of it all together is too much, but still at the end of the day I’m left with “we need to figure out what to do with your parents on Sunday.” (sighs)

THERAPIST: Would it help if you did one meal with your family and one meal with his, sort of divided it up?

CLIENT: It would, but there’s no way there is a polite . . . because I wish I could just afterwards maybe go to dinner with my parents and Ivan can go out and do something with his parents; but there’s no polite way to do that.

THERAPIST: I mean Friday night versus Saturday night, doing dinner with one versus the other. You’d just rather do both with your family, you’re saying?

CLIENT: No, I’m just saying there’s no way to do anything Saturday evening without my in-laws, evidently. [00:33:01] It doesn’t feel like after graduation I can say, “Go to dinner on your own with Ivan.” (sighs) It shouldn’t be this . . . I don’t know why, but I just got so incredibly upset and unbelievably angry with Ivan. And it wasn’t anything that he was doing; it was more like I just felt like he was still absent and I don’t know why.

THERAPIST: I really wonder if something got very triggered about your childhood. It’s not that Ivan is not doing things, but there’s something that sounds like it just pushed your rage through the roof, perhaps after this conversation with your mother on Mother’s Day.

CLIENT: Last night when I got home – I was volunteering at the hospital – and I got home (sighs) and I was still upset from earlier because I really told Ivan that I was hurt and he just never responded. He still hasn’t responded to it, really. [00:33:58] Eventually he said something like, “Yeah, I’m sorry about earlier;” and that’s like as much as he can do. It was too much for me and I acted like it was somewhat okay. He went to bed because he has to get up really early and I just sat in the living room and sobbed and sobbed and sobbed. He came out and was like, “What can I do?” He just has a really straight . . . He’s doing the stone face, and I’m like, “Nothing. Just go back to bed. I just need some space.” Then the third time he comes out and he wants to sit on the couch by me and I’m just like, ‘No, just leave it.” He was like, “What can I do?” He really had no clue. I just know he sees that I am sobbing. He sees that I am devastated and, for whatever reason, he just wasn’t able to show any compassion. It was just too much for me, like the other times in the week where he’s just gotten to a point where he can’t talk and he just doesn’t even say like “I need a few minutes before we talk;” he just doesn’t talk. [00:35:00] And I just feel ultimately so rejected and so pathetic because, here I am, almost two years into my marriage, and I’m begging my spouse to talk to me, to look at me, to show me compassion when I am sobbing uncontrollably. It feels like crap. Whether or not that’s reflective of things that he’s struggling with, it still feels like crap.

THERAPIST: I’ve been hesitant today to talk about the Dearman skills because, even though that was our agenda, I haven’t had that ready to do; but there’s so much feeling about much bigger, deeper issues right now that it’s sort of not like a calmer place to walk through a new skill. But I do wonder, Ramona, how much this set ways of thinking about things could be helpful to you and Ivan, even navigating this weekend. I wonder, for example, if there is a way that you and he could talk about what you are asking for from him that would help you when you’re in a place like that. [00:36:06] Rather than saying, “I just need you to be . . .” or “just . . .” or “you do . . .” – the anger state. Dearman is a skill that allows people . . . Basically it’s interpersonal effective guidelines for getting what you want. So it’s thinking about if there’s something I need to go ask someone for, how do I speak to them in a way that will increase the likelihood that I will actually get what I want. So with Ivan I might say, for example, what do you need from him this week? We can’t affect the long term, but this week in anticipation of this weekend, if you were to think about one thing that would help you get through the weekend . . . One thing that I wonder about, for example, is getting back a little bit on the same page for a week. This is a stressful week for you. I wonder if he knows even how stressful this is for you. Does he appreciate that? [00:37:05]

CLIENT: I don’t think he has a clue.

THERAPIST: Yeah. So I wonder if, as a starting point, you might be able to think “what is my goal?” – something small, something realistic, something manageable – not huge “I want him to plan the whole weekend and fix everything having to do with our relationship.” That’s not going to happen; but if there were something small that he could do that would make you feel a little bit better – like if it ticks your rage down from ten down to eight or from nine down to eight – what is that one thing that he could do that you could say, “Ivan, can I talk to you?” And then you sit down and you walk through the Dearman skills. Dearman is an acronym for Describe, Express, Assert, Reinforce, stay Mindful, Appear confident, and Negotiate. You have that skill sheet that I gave you. It’s a way of being mindful throughout the entire conversation to keep your affect quiet and calm inside. And then you describe what the situation is. You express what your feelings are about the situation and then you assert what you want and you reinforce to him – where are you going? You’re disappearing? [00:38:14]

CLIENT: I’m sorry.

THERAPIST: No, no. It’s okay. I’m just wondering. I lost you. It looks like I’m losing you.

CLIENT: No. I’m paying attention. I’m sorry.

THERAPIST: No, it’s okay if you’re not. I’m interested in where you went.

CLIENT: (crying)

THERAPIST: You’re overwhelmed.

CLIENT: I’m overwhelmed and I got really, really, really depressed last night and I really thought quite a lot about killing myself. I’m not proud of it and I’m ashamed to even say it. I’m having trouble escaping and I even feel like it’s my fault for graduating this weekend because if I wasn’t, I wouldn’t be creating all these problems and it consistently feels like the only way I can escape all of these problems is if I just disappear somehow because Ivan would be happy. Ivan wouldn’t have all these issues as his parents . . . [00:39:02] I mean, his parents kind of tell me it’s my fault he’s depressed or his dad has alluded to it. And I think of my parents telling me that they stayed together for us and I feel like it’s my fault that they don’t get along and I feel like it’s all my fault and all my responsibility and I just feel like I can’t do anything right. It’s stupid. It’s just a dinner. It’s just two days. It’s so stupid and, yet, I just feel like I can’t handle it and I feel like I’m really not okay and I can’t tell anyone in my family that I’m not okay so I feel alone in that. (crying) I don’t know what to do because, like I said, I was just really crying and Ivan was . . . I mean at one point he just pointed his finger at me and said, “You need to calm down,” and he was angry at me and he was like, “Well, this is your depression. You need to . . .” It’s just like . . . I just . . . (voice breaking) I feel hopeless and I feel like asking Ivan for an expectation for this weekend, my best bet is to have no expectations for him this weekend because I cannot handle getting upset or resentful about one more thing that falls through.

THERAPIST: Does he tell you that he loves you?

CLIENT: (sniggers) As he goes out the door sometimes. I don’t think he . . .

THERAPIST: Means it?

CLIENT: I don’t feel it. I just don’t understand how you can watch someone sob and sob and just not . . .

THERAPIST: He freezes up. The thing is though, Ramona, I think he’d be out of there if he were unattached to you. It would have been easy to make this relationship break off long ago for both of you if you weren’t attached to each other.

CLIENT: Yes, but no matter who I was, I don’t think Ivan would ever have the self-esteem to leave. He is attached. He’s very dependent. That’s what worries me. I don’t know that he’s here because he actually cares anything about me, but because he’s very dependent. [00:40:58]

THERAPIST: And are you feeling the same thing about your own attachment to him?

CLIENT: I sometimes wonder if I had a higher self-esteem or if I felt like I deserved more that I would leave him; but even then I don’t know if I could because I still have the hope that things could be better. Sometimes things are a little bit better or maybe I am seeing it through a lens where I feel like he doesn’t love me because he’s struggling with these things and really it’s not me and really he can get through it. I have no clue what to think or what to blame it on or pinpoint what the cause of it is.

THERAPIST: There’s a way, as you talk about this, it’s almost as though your level of your responsibility is as though you feel you’re like God. I don’t mean to be facetious, but the level of what you think is your fault and your responsibility in other people, it is as though you’re describing a god somehow, that you’re the cause of everything, in a way. [00:42:12] I think it would be freeing to you one day to realize these things are not your fault and have nothing to do with your being good or bad. But I also think it will feel very anxiety provoking because, in a way, this fantasy that you are the cause and that your badness is the cause, keeps you feeling in control. Do you remember us talking about that in the past couple of weeks? It’s a fantasy that you grew as a child and that your parents played into in a horribly abusive way by telling you “we’re staying together just for you.” That’s a horrible thing to say to a child. It does make them feel responsible for everything that’s going on in their parents’ psychic lives and in the parents’ marriage. It’s not your fault. Your parents’ deteriorating marriage and your parents’ psychological problems are not your fault, Ramona. [00:43:08]

CLIENT: I feel like that’s true ultimately, but at the same time I feel like telling someone you’re not responsible for the things they didn’t do – or telling me I’m not responsible for the things Ivan doesn’t do. It’s like crap, quite frankly. It’s an illusion.

THERAPIST: It’s an illusion that you’re not responsible?

CLIENT: Right. It’s not your problem; it’s their problem?

THERAPIST: No, no, no. It does become your problem. I’m not saying that. It absolutely affects you that Ivan can’t do these things, but it doesn’t feel you’re responsible. It was your problem as a child in that it affected you terrible, dramatically. It affected your entire life that they couldn’t do what they couldn’t do and didn’t do what they didn’t do, but it doesn’t mean that it was your fault. [00:44:06] That is the difference. Those two things have become fused in your mind; that they are one and the same. If it affects you, therefore there must be something you could do differently, right? That’s not true and I think that fusion of those two things, you thinking of those as identical, is what causes you to feel the most depression in your life and the most suicidal. That’s the kind of thing that’s getting triggered this week, this state of frenzy that “there has to be something I can do to change this weekend so that it doesn’t affect me negatively.” And if there’s not something you can do, then you’re a horrible person. It’s not true.

This weekend is going to affect you. No matter how it goes this weekend it’s going to affect you and you’re problem going to be coming in here Monday saying “it was awful and let me tell you how it was awful,” right? [00:45:03] I am expecting it’s going to affect you, no matter what. Even if you decide to cancel the whole thing, then you’ll feel sad. It’s going to affect you, but it’s not your responsibility. The conduct of your parents, the conduct of your in-laws, the conduct of Ivan, is not your responsibility – it’s theirs.

CLIENT: It doesn’t make it feel any better.

THERAPIST: I think it will over time if we can start to pull those two apart. It could actually – this is where when I say it’s freeing – there could be ways it could make parts of it feel better because it’s at last free. You don’t have to feel so responsible. There could be parts of it that feel worse because then you start to say, “Oh, my God. It’s just that my parents are incompetent people,” or “It’s just that they are really this depressed and could not set themselves aside to take care of their own children.” That’s in some ways a more depressing and sad realization about who they are as people than if you blame yourself. “If only I had done something differently,” then all the fault is yours and you don’t really have to ever get so upset and angry and disappointed in them. [00:46:11]

CLIENT: No, it feels better to turn it inwards and hate myself than it does to hate them. I can’t hate them.

THERAPIST: As a child you couldn’t. You’re totally right. As a child, you needed to turn it in on yourself in order to survive in your family.

CLIENT: I feel like I have to turn it in on myself to survive with Ivan.

THERAPIST: So that’s what we’re working on because I don’t actually think that’s good for you or Ivan and I don’t think that’s the reality of the relationship with him. There’s some headway that’s happening, I think, in the couple’s therapy or moments where I think you’re actually holding him accountable in an adult way that’s not holding your parents accountable, that he rises, then, to the challenge. It’s not always. It’s not across the board because this takes work and effort to try to find a way that you say “I deserve better,” right? You have to feel that you deserve better in order to say, “Ivan, this is more of what I need,” not from a “THIS IS WHAT,” you know? [00:47:05] That’s different. That’s your childhood place yelling at your parents. The adult place, for example, this week if he were here I would say, “Ivan, this is what Ramona needs – just to come over and be on her page for one weekend. She’s going through a really stressful time and no matter what the two of you are going through, is there a way you could give her a few extra hugs and tell her you love her? Hold her hand, give her a squeeze every now and then through getting through these two dinners?” Just something as little as that. I bet if he were asked that, not in a “could you do this” way, but “I need you right now. I love you and I need you. Could you do this with me? Kind of just come over here with me a little bit to help me get through this weekend?” He might be relieved that you’re saying you need him. “There’s something you imagine I could give you that would help you? I would love to do that for you in this way. And it’s something as little as being supportive and loving? I would love to do that because I can do that. That’s not a lot to ask.” [00:48:04] (pause)

We’ve got to stop. This fits in with today, if you have a second to sit down, develop some challenges to some of the automatic thoughts. I think a lot of these fit what you’re describing even today.

CLIENT: Okay. Thank you.

THERAPIST: Ramona, good luck this weekend. I want you to know that I know this is a huge, huge weekend that is not going to be easy, no matter what you decide to do. I think there are ways that we’re going to keep working on helping you step outside some and know that it’s just a weekend and you’re an adult now and you can actually develop a different kind of resilience where it’s not your fault anymore how they act [at this table.] (ph?)

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