TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: I got your e-mail. I don't know if you got my response back this morning.

CLIENT: No, I probably already left.

THERAPIST: I did have a few extra minutes so I got to read over your records. I won't always have that Monday morning.

CLIENT: That's OK.

THERAPIST: Just something happened at 11:00 to do that. A few more days would give me time but no problem even that's when it is. It just might take me till the next session. Another time so I'm pretty full this morning but let's see if there's anything we have in common. What's your schedule like this week? Are you flexible?

CLIENT: I think mostly it could be afternoons. (pause) What times do you have?

THERAPIST: Unless I get a cancelation, the... I think the only opening I have is Wednesday at 12:10.

CLIENT: OK. I volunteer at 1:00...

THERAPIST: At 1:00.

CLIENT: ...at the HQ so unfortunately it won't but...

THERAPIST: Why don't you tell me your... what does Tuesday look like? [00:01:02] I'm just going to write it down, those things.

CLIENT: Tomorrow I don't have anything.

THERAPIST: Tuesday is pretty open. OK, Wednesday at 1:00.

CLIENT: Wednesday I'm busy from noon to 6:00 so that won't work.

THERAPIST: Noon to 6:00. Thursday?

CLIENT: Thursday I'm busy. At 12:30 I have to leave by 11:30 until the rest of the evening.

THERAPIST: 11:30?

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: Till the rest of the day?

CLIENT: Well, I have to be like at the HQ by 12:30 so...

THERAPIST: And how about Friday?

CLIENT: We have a 1:00 with Dr. Farrow. That's all have right now but... (pause)

THERAPIST: So I will call you if anything opens up any other time.

CLIENT: No, I mean, it was a small... but I just thought I'd ask.

THERAPIST: I know. I still appreciate your asking. Now that I know I have it on my radar screen. If we wanted to pencil it in for like a following week even?

CLIENT: That would be...

THERAPIST: Do you want to do that? Because usually what will happen if I have openings, they'll fill a week in advance. [00:02:08] But I wonder about that then. So the 30th I have a 9:40. The 1st, I have 8:20 open. (pause) And the 31st Wednesday the 31st I can do 1:50 but you work at 1:00. And so Wednesday doesn't work.

CLIENT: Next week is also a little weird because my sister is moving and I'm helping. So it's like we're likely to be moving her evening and then a good chunk of one of the days. [00:03:03] So I can get back to you maybe about Tuesday.

THERAPIST: Tuesday 9:40 or Thursday 8:20.

CLIENT: Yea. Let me... yea.

THERAPIST: If anything else opens, I'll tell you.

CLIENT: Thank you. (pause)

THERAPIST: So I'd read through your couples session. It felt like it went horribly.

CLIENT: Yea, it did.

THERAPIST: In addition to before that just kind of where things have been. Ivan (sp?) that you said fighting once a week. Some of it is better but that there's... I mean, the sense I get, Ramona (sp?), is that there's a lot of understandable feeling you have about things that have happened in your relationship that have been his responsibility his lying, his not being accountable for things to you. [00:04:02]

And you're looking for some space to allow those feelings to be get known and process and understood. (pause) And how do you allow space for that alongside taking in that in the present, you could sort of erase the past? Things are slowly changing. You're trying to sort of take in the reality of that. But it sounds like you're really feeling like no one is allowing you space either Ivan (sp?) in the relationship or even in the couples therapy to have feelings about what's happened in the past.

CLIENT: Yea, so it kind of feels like we spend a lot of time in couples therapy talking about me being less critical and me being... not asking him to do things even. And I feel like in some ways that was good. But then I'm starting to realize fairly consistently that although Ivan (sp?) is making progress, a lot of weeks I'm finding myself kind of now I've been sort of turned into a bit of a doormat sometimes. [00:05:10]

Because pretty much every week like the trash will be piled high, the laundry will be piled high. And according to Dr. Farrow, I shouldn't criticize. I shouldn't ask him to do it. I should... and I understand where that comes from. But then I feel kind of angry because I'm like sitting back and I'm thinking wait a minute. So this is going to happen every week and I'm not allowed to say a word about it. And it's, we're not allowed to... I'm not even supposed to ask him to do it or even say like... and then if I do it and I feel a little resentful which I broke down and did some laundry this past weekend. Because we needed some clothes, then that's on me if I feel frustrated about that. That's my own fault for doing it. And it doesn't... that doesn't seem productive. I don't want to go back to being critical but that's not helpful.

THERAPIST: So I have a question actually about that. [00:06:01] If we were to try to separate out for a second the past, sort of knowing that that's what one beast sort of the whole history of feelings that is really important. That's... we can't erase the past, right? That's not reality. You do have a lot of feelings, a lot of resentment. This can be what gets in the way of intimacy, for example. People just... I just don't trust you. All this stuff happening but even if things are better today, I can't get over this for a while. Or how do I get over?

So separate that for a second from even what's happening in the present. Like this week in couples therapy. A lot of the work you're seeing has been focusing on helping you to try to, in some ways, keep your mouth shut and let's see what Ivan (sp?) does all on his own and holding you accountable to being less critical. Is he being also held accountable in the present? I'm not talking about the past, for... OK, a week goes by, he didn't do his jobs. Does that get taken up and he's held accountable for the fact that he's like, just as much as you, could get held accountable for being too critical? [00:07:09] Does he get held accountable for not doing enough?

CLIENT: I don't feel that that's the case and I can't even bring that up in couples therapy because that's critical. So I can't walk in and say, "Well, you know what? This is like..." I'm letting it go but the reality is every weekend the trash can is piled high and the laundry is like... and I'm cleaning the apartment by myself. And this is getting old. I can't walk in and say that. Nor can I walk in and say, "He's really avoiding all these topics and we haven't talked about them in months. I can't even say that because that's...

And part of Ivan's (sp?) thing is not bringing up like... he would not initiate that conversation and say... and I... so it just feels like on the one hand, I didn't like myself being critical and nagging him and mommy him. But now I don't know if I really like this passive role where I am not allowed to say anything and he's allowed to do... I'm not saying it's the end of the world. [00:08:07] But it's more about...

THERAPIST: If that's what it is, it is a big deal. If literally... for example, so if Dr. Farrow has a very strong bias against you and...

CLIENT: I don't know that that's the case at all but...

THERAPIST: ...that would be a problem, right? So I don't want to say like, well, no that's fine. That's not fine if that's what's actually happening.

CLIENT: I'm saying like the fact that the trash is gross, like I clean the kitchen and it still smells because the trash is piled. That's not the actually problem. It's more that I feel... I don't feel respected. I don't feel appreciated. I don't understand why it's my job to clean the apartment without him helping. I don't understand why I do the dishes twice a day and he would only need to do the laundry maybe once every couple days, same with the trash.

And it's not... again the point isn't that he's not... it's not as much about the fact that the laundry is... or the whatever or his chores are out of control. It's more... (pause) I don't know. [00:09:08] I guess I felt like were working on that type of thing because it is a problem. But also just more out of respect, mutual respect, for shared space and mutual appreciation for each one chipping in and doing their own part and responsibility. And I'm sure it sets off bigger things in me. (pause)

So we had spent a session talking about physical intimacy and Ivan (sp?)... I mean, Ivan (sp?) has voiced his complaints, concerns, whatever. We don't really and Dr. Farrow... we spent the entire session on it. And I felt very uncomfortable. But she wanted me to talk about it with you. And last week I didn't because I hadn't seen you in two weeks and I just... but I... it's not fair. And I don't want to say that Dr. Farrow did anything wrong by taking a session to talk about that. [00:10:03]

But I felt kind of... I don't know. I took it personally which is on me. But I felt offended because we don't talk about the elephants in the room. We can't... I can't even talk about, hey, he's not holding up his end of the deal sometimes. We can't talk about a lot of that stuff but then it's... it feels like, well, why don't you trust him? Why don't you want to be closer to him? Why wouldn't you want more intimacy in your relationship even though we can't talk about these huge betrayals of trust? And it just is like... I don't know. I guess I felt offended. (pause)

THERAPIST: Offended that sort of... I'm just trying to make sense of the word "offended." Like...

CLIENT: It's like we're not going to talk about Ivan (sp?) being dishonest. We're not even going to suggest that he needs to be honest just as you need to not be so critical. That's not even something that's ever been said. And but we are going to talk about like, "Why aren't you more vulnerable with him? And why aren't you willing like... why don't you trust him more? Why don't want to be as close as possible so that you can get hurt even more?" [00:11:10] It just felt like why would that be the priority right now?

THERAPIST: It sounds almost like you end up feeling unseen in a way. You don't exist. It's not getting known that you're not, for one reason, wanting to have sex with him because you're very mad and don't trust him. And that that foundation has to be there before that intimacy feels like a natural evolution but that that sort of is getting ignored.

CLIENT: Yea. And that...

THERAPIST: In a way like as though you're just withholding or something. What's wrong with you?

CLIENT: It feels... I told her that I thought that... for me, I thought that emotional intimacy and trust and like all the... that those things were more basic to me. And it was almost like a hierarchy for me. Why... and in our relationship in general, why would I be worried about something that I would assume in any couple's life is a relatively small component? (chuckling) [00:12:08]

When we haven't covered the basics and we're still not... it feels like... I don't know. And she's told me that that was my opinion and that that's not... that physical intimacy to some people is just as reaffirming and comforting and important as emotional intimacy is to other people. And I don't understand that. (pause)

THERAPIST: I wonder if what she's trying to say is that often... for example, sometimes when couples are in... really in it and having a hard time with each other that sometimes they can find having a kind of reconnection can blossom over trying to be physically intimate even if you don't want to sometimes. Kind of forcing that a little bit and sometimes that can bring you closer together and actually facilitate an emotional conversation that would not have been able to take place had the physical contact not happen. [00:13:10]

In other words, I think it can happen both ways. But I don't think that means it doesn't matter that, for you, there has to be a certain foundation of connectedness and trust to feel like that's something you want to entertain. So backing up a second, what... I wonder, Ramona (sp?), if you were to describe to me what you would like to have happen in the couples therapy. What... when you say, "We're not talking about the elephants in the room," what would that look like? What would feel like that your need is getting met rather than ignored? What are you envisioning if it went the way you were hoping it would go or needed to go right now?

CLIENT: I guess I don't have a clear vision of how couples therapy should go or even the way that kind of bigger pieces get broken down along with more everyday like sustainable skills. [00:14:08] Because I feel like she's done... like we've done a lot of that. A lot of communication skills, a lot of like...

THERAPIST: And it sounds like you've gotten something out of that.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: That's been helpful.

CLIENT: No, it's been very, very helpful and I don't mean to diminish that.

THERAPIST: And...

CLIENT: Yea, I don't mean to diminish that in any way, shape or form. However months and months ago we spent 20 minutes each session for like three sessions which is a total of an hour talking about like kind of the grad school thing. And we talked about it once at home. And that's all that ever happened. And I'm just saying for me to get over my husband lying to me for a couple of years about a really huge thing that has a lot more to do with... like it has much bigger implications than just, I don't have this diploma. I'm going to need a little more than an hour spread out over the course of three weeks. And I'm not saying it to be bitter or to hold a grudge or like I don't think I'm just refusing to let it go. [00:15:02]

But we can't like not talk about it for months and then say, "Well, it's been months. Why aren't you over it?" I don't want to talk about it probably as much as he doesn't want to talk about it at this point. It's not pleasant. But it doesn't seem fair, I guess, to keep going and keep... like how long do we go until we finally got back to it? It already feels like sort of stunted because I didn't have the chance to deal with it when it actually happened because I didn't know. And now we're just getting so far apart. I don't want to deal with this in two years. I want to like deal with it. Move on. And it doesn't feel like there's an opportunity for that. It doesn't feel like anyone... maybe you, but it doesn't feel like anyone in my life sees it as a real problem. His parents sure as heck don't. It's totally under the rug and it's just frustrating because even in couples therapy I really felt like I was... like they were just indulging me. [00:16:03]

"Well, you brought it up so we can talk about it a little bit." And I just thought like why am I in the wrong? Why am I the only one who thinks... is it really not a problem? Am I really making a mountain out of a molehill? And we stopped because Ivan (sp?), of course, he got upset. He started crying. He really withdrew. And Dr. Farrow said, "Well, this is really upsetting for Ivan (sp?). We need to stop." And I just thought like I appreciate that but it always feels like... it's not fair. It comes out of anger but it feels a lot like Ivan (sp?) does some of this stuff and then he talks about how difficult it is for him and how painful it is for him to talk about. And I know it is. But on the other hand I'm over here and I'm saying, "Wait a minute. You had the choice and you did it and you did it to me even if that wasn't the intent. It's not fair. That's not fair." [00:17:00]

So I don't know what that would look like but I just want to process it and deal with it and ultimately forgive it and... I don't know. I want us to both work through it together. And I'd also like for there to be some kind... it doesn't feel like there is but it would be nice if there would be some kind of way for me to have some kind of voice because it doesn't... without criticizing Ivan (sp?) which I don't want to go back to that always being my approach. I don't... like I said, I'm the one sitting there and just looking at what isn't done and I'm not allowed to say a word.

THERAPIST: So I wonder what would happen maybe he'll say, "Oh, I did this," and you'll tell me exactly what happened if you said to Dr. Farrow what... almost what you just said to me now. In essence acknowledging how helpful the work on communication has been to you and that you really value that that's actually been in some ways you can understand making that a priority for a while just to get both you in the room together talking with each other again. [00:18:18]

What if you were to say, "But Dr. Farrow, I'm trying to figure out what to do. I still have all this feeling about the past and kind of deep resentments and mistrust. Even as things are changing, I'm not quite sure how we, as a couple, can address the past. Do you have suggestions for about how we might do that in here?" Like what she would say to that if you ask for her help and her suggestions about... because I can't imagine she won't understand that you would have all this feeling. I don't know what she would say to that. Like if she could say, "Well, we've done enough work. Now is the time." Or do you know what I mean? [00:19:01]

So you're asking for her help about acknowledging there's a lot of this feeling and you say, "Even that could be something that's getting in the way of our being physically intimate because there's just all this feeling I have." Just what would she recommend about how to bring that in or how do you approach that together? I'd be curious what she'd say if you ask that kind of question in that way.

CLIENT: I approached it pretty poorly. I more just told her that I felt so frustrated that we weren't talking about it and why was physical intimacy a priority? But we weren't allowed to talk about Ramona (sp?) might not want to have sex with Ivan (sp?) because... you know? And it's like nobody else can see that. And I tried to explain to her that that's even... like it's even more important to have it in couples therapy because none of our friends, none of our families, there's just nobody else and it's so frustrating. (pause)

THERAPIST: So maybe taking out like what would happen if you took out the word frustrating or I'm frustrated with this process. I'm frustrated with you. And said... shared what your concerns are about what remains through all this feeling. [00:20:13]

And I think even... again, this is sort of practicing your interpersonal effectiveness skills even with Dr. Farrow. (chuckling) Where maybe you'd wish you didn't have to practice interpersonal effectiveness skills. But I wonder if she'd hear you differently if you said, "What are your suggestions about how we might approach these feelings I have about our history that I feel like are still getting in the way?"

CLIENT: Oh, I can see that. I just felt like if I left... I left feeling like I never wanted to go back again. It was just like... because it felt like she didn't think it was a problem. It felt like, "Ramona (sp?) just can't let this go. We've been talking about it for weeks and weeks." And we haven't. We haven't talked about it in months. Not at home, not in therapy. No one the Earth has been acknowledging that this is an issue. And so I don't think it's fair to say, "You should be over it by now," when we haven't ever really gotten into it. [00:21:05] And she... I was... this is bad but I just felt so angry because she said, "Well, you couldn't even sit... you could barely sit on the couch together." We couldn't talk about it then.

THERAPIST: Yea, (inaudible at 00:21:16) that made you angry. I don't quite understand what was so upsetting about that. Help me understand that.

CLIENT: It just felt like I guess I feel judged enough in that situation and I already feel like... and to say, "You couldn't even sit on the couch together." It felt like, "It's not a problem that he lied to you. We're not going to talk about it. I'm not going to ask him to be honest to you. And on top of which you couldn't even sit on the couch together so how could we talk about what you think is a problem?" And that's not what she's saying but it just felt rude and it just felt really unhelpful. And I guess it felt a lot less than sympathetic to the situation that like it might be hard for two people to interact together when there is like a really big shift in trust. [00:22:07]

And I just... it's so frustrating because I don't enjoy talking about it. I don't enjoy feeling upset about it. I don't enjoy that this happened at all but I can't just not talk about it because it's upsetting to Ivan (sp?). It's upsetting like Dr. Farrow doesn't think it's a problem. None of our friends even know about it. He refuses to talk to any of his friends. He won't tell anyone what happened. His parents refuse to acknowledge what's going on. It's...

THERAPIST: And I... if Dr. Farrow doesn't think it's a problem, she would be crazy. I can't... I don't think she thinks it's not a problem. Even from the backlog e-mail communication. I gained the sense more that she totally gets that it's a problem. And yet it's in some ways had to get tabled for the time being in order to even be able to start to have a conversation with each other. [00:23:09]

So I don't think she means it as judgmentally as maybe it felt. Lots of couples come into therapy unable to even tolerate being in the same room together. That's usually what happens when people start couples therapy or not usually. People come in for different reasons. Some, they come in simply just to have help breaking up. It widely varies. But it's not uncommon to have that experience. And so processing the deepest hurts from the past sometimes gets put tabled for a little bit so that you can work on communication skills so that you can go back and talk about some of this stuff.

CLIENT: No, I really understand that. I do. I just... like I said, this is...

THERAPIST: But you feel like that's not happening. Or maybe you're ready to...

CLIENT: No, I just feel like if we can spend an entire session talking about sex, and that to me would not... and evidently that's just my opinion that that's not as important as like some of these baseline things. [00:24:01] Why can't we spend a whole session talking about those baseline things?

I just... and I guess I just keep feeling more frustrated because like I said, I like that I've... I feel like I've come a long way in being less critical of Ivan (sp?). And I stopped asking him completely to apply to jobs or to do the laundry or to take out the trash. Just stopped asking but then I'm realizing we're doing all this work in couples therapy. We're spending all this money and all this time and at the end of the week I'm just sitting and keeping my mouth shut. And it's not happening. This is frustrating.

THERAPIST: So he hasn't been doing more changing (inaudible at 00:24:39).

CLIENT: That's the thing. We tried the whole... it was actually your idea originally. We tried the whole like I don't say anything for a week. Ivan (sp?) does it on his own. He feels empowered. I trust him. It's great. And he realized after the first few days of that that I really don't say anything. And so if he doesn't do it, nobody says anything. And so he's taken advantage of that. [00:25:00] And I don't... like again, it's not intentional like he plotted. Now you can't say anything. I never have to do my chores. But that's what happened.

THERAPIST: So he's just not doing them?

CLIENT: He's not doing them until like the trash is overflowing. The laundry is more than overflowing out of the basket. And by the time... like I hint like...

THERAPIST: So not... like is there a schedule that... what schedule are we going to do, once a week?

CLIENT: We tried that. We tried a schedule. He said the schedule is hard for him. Then he said, "Oh, I don't want to have just two days a week to take out the trash because I should be taking it out every time it's over... every time it's full, I don't want to have an excuse not to take it out." And then because he didn't have days that were assigned to take it, he didn't take it out.

THERAPIST: He needs a schedule.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: That would be even for his individual work scheduling in general.

CLIENT: Yea, we tried that. It's just like and so it really... somehow in couples therapy that still makes me the bad person because I'm still the one who can't get over the stupid chores. [00:26:02] But it really sucks to clean the apartment every week and to have him come home and maybe notice and maybe say thank you. But he doesn't have to help and it just does not help with the whole like respect thing and...

THERAPIST: I guess one of the things I end up wondering then about what's happened in the couples work is if... you've heard me say this before, Ramona (sp?), that it feels like in you guys as a couple more often or not you're the one holding and expressing the effect of frustration. And Ivan (sp?) is the one who's holding and expressing the effect of shame and, "I'm so guilty I can't even talk about it. And what's wrong with me?" and self-criticism.

People often end up... this is just what happens. You feel empathy for the person who's in the kind of beating themselves up shame mode. [00:27:10] And you want to help them feel less ashamed. You feel less empathy for the person who's constantly in critical mode and that's just kind of how people work. Like if criticism and frustration and resentment and anger breeds people feeling a little bit defensive.

So I... this is where I just wonder... again this is almost a skill. Sort of trying to figure out how to communicate what you are feeling in a slightly different way even in a couples therapy. Because I wonder if Dr. Farrow is feeling... ends up gravitating and feeling more empathy for Ivan (sp?) when she's not quite getting maybe that what there is to be empathic within you. That's why I say that rather than the, "I'm feeling frustrated by this conversation," leading more with feelings of sad, lonely, scared. [00:28:04] This range of things where people's hearts naturally want to go and help that person and sort of your heart breaks for that person.

Your heart doesn't break for the person who's angry, right? We all get drawn into feeling kind of flight or fight defensive mode when people get angry at us. So I wonder what it would be like to just lead more with that side of things. Expressing how helpful the work has been so far. Saying you feel like now you are sitting on the couch together. And you are able to communicate what your concerns about all this feeling that still remains that makes you feel distanced and you want to be closer to Ivan (sp?). Do you see what... do you see the positive? Like it's you felt very hurt instead of angry, right? There's a big difference in people. When people hear somebody is hurt, they want to help. When people hear somebody is angry, they want to move away.

Owning more the hurt feelings that you like some space to process and how would she suggest that you guys go about that is there a way to create space for that in the room now or at some point in the near future? [00:29:11] Or what would she think would have to happen in order to for the space to get created there? I'm just wondering if you'd get a different response.

CLIENT: Maybe. I'm sure reframing it would... I'm sure it would elicit a different response. I just feel like Ivan's (sp?)... Ivan (sp?) tends to withdraw when he feels in couples therapy. I mean, he tends to withdraw in general around these conversations and I hear that it's part of the shame and part of the depression and part of the guilt. But it's really hard to... I guess it feels really hard to even bring up that type of topic sometimes because he really is like cowering. He really is mumbling. He won't make eye contact. He will barely say a word. He will not... every week, like she asks us to like, "Do you want to follow up about last week? Anything we want to cover?" [00:30:03]

And I always have to start. It's just... it's more and more like... and I... so I know this is wrong but... and he does it at home, too. I know it's wrong but when Ivan (sp?) mumbles... and Ivan (sp?) is a big guy and he like makes himself physically small and he like... and he won't make eye contact. And he's just staring at the floor and he... it's like I physically beaten him up. It's like I've just beaten him up even if I'm saying like, "I really want to talk about this." And so there's no way for me... it feels like there's no way for me to not come off as the bully even though in reality what Ivan (sp?) did was pretty crappy. And I didn't actually do anything to deserve it. So I come off as like...

THERAPIST: And feeling... it's kind of you have to work extra hard to take care of those feelings. That's... and it's annoying and it's unfair.

CLIENT: No, it's horrible but I lately find like I feel very frustrated because Ivan (sp?) has all this shame and all this guilt. [00:31:00] And I'm finding sometimes I have more capacity more than other times to feel sympathetic about that or feel compassionate about it because it's hard to say like, "You did this. It hurt me." I should like, "That's really difficult for you. That's so difficult for you to talk about that. That's so shameful for you." And there's no discussion about...

THERAPIST: Yea. So maybe particularly your question for Dr. Farrow and even maybe for Ivan (sp?) is to say, "I'm really hoping we can find a way of talking about this that doesn't lead you to feel so ashamed that we can't speak to each other about it." You're trying to express your desire for him. That like, "Ivan (sp?), I love you. I want to be closer to you and these feelings about the past feel like they still haunt me. And we haven't talked about them much in here. We've talked about them for three sessions for 20 minutes each and there's a lot of feelings still to be had. And I've been struggling. I've been tackling my individual work about how do I honor my feelings and allow them to be known in this relationship but in a way that doesn't immediately lead you to recoil in shame because that doesn't get us anywhere." [00:32:19]

Do you know what I mean? "So Ivan (sp?), do you have suggestions about how we might talk about this with each other so we could make some movement on it? I feel like when we talk and what we've talked about the past a few times, you immediately recoil into shameful tears and I don't want to do that to you. That's not my intention but I also don't want to dishonor my feelings just to take care of yours, right?"

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: Do you hear the language? (pause) This... what we're talking about right now, this language in here, this is the kind of in between. When I've said we have to somehow find a way of honoring your experience as valid and really important to be talked about without it either being rageful expression or undoing and disappearance of Ramona's (sp?) needs and feelings. [00:33:07] Because that's just as bad as the opposite that can come across as just attacking.

How do you have your experience be really valid and his experience be valid in that you're saying, "I totally get this is where you go the minute I bring this up. And I don't want to do that to you because that doesn't even help me. That's not my intention. I don't want to just be here and beat you over the head with this. But I'd like some space to talk about it and I don't know how to do that. Can you help me come up with suggestions? I need your help, Ivan (sp?). I need your help, Dr. Farrow." Positively eliciting their brainstorming with you about how to kind of make this speakable in your relationship.

CLIENT: It was interesting because in the session she stopped us after like ten minutes. Because Ivan (sp?) was upset and she said, "I see how difficult it is for him." And I said, "What makes you think this isn't difficult for me?" which... so anyway, like... but then we got home. [00:34:06] And Ivan (sp?) said, "I don't want to talk about it anymore because I don't want to hurt you. Because I make you think about it and you deal with it and I don't want to hurt you." And so I don't...

THERAPIST: So interesting.

CLIENT: It is.

THERAPIST: That logic.

CLIENT: It is. And I told... of course it sucks to talk about it. It's not high on my... but also avoiding it indefinitely, we're just prolonging dealing with it. And I'd rather deal with it and move on and continue to make the progress. (pause)

THERAPIST: So again, showing more of your vulnerability rather than your rage, I think will get... is going to get you far in there. Like if you say... if you lead the conversation with, "This is so hard for me to talk about. One of the reasons it's hard for me is because I feel like it feels like I'm beating you, Ivan (sp?). And that's not my intention. I'm actually scared to bring this us because I'm scared you're both going to attack me." [00:35:09] That's, in essence, what you're saying. You're actually afraid of them making you disappear in one way or another.

CLIENT: It's almost to the point where I rather let it go than bring it up because it's just like... (pause)

THERAPIST: Have you ever written out... if you're going to have a hard conversation write out what you want to say. Have you ever practice that as a skill just to... because that might be something. I'm giving you a lot of language right now that's trying to sort of frame this as, "I want to feel closer to you, Ivan (sp?). This is not..." So instead of, "I'm so mad and I can't get over the past," it's just a totally different message. "I really would like to feel closer. One of the things that feels like a major obstacle in needs, this past stuff, and I want to see if there's any way we can bring this up and a way we can talk about it. And actually have a conversation rather than it feeling like I just push you into... back into your corner." [00:36:07]

CLIENT: No, I'm sure... like that's a much better... and I understand that you can sort of be sending the same message but use very different language and get a very different response. It's just really hard in that moment.

THERAPIST: It's really hard.

CLIENT: It's really hard to say I feel like nobody is acknowledging that this is a problem. I feel even our couples therapist isn't really acknowledging that it's a problem. My husband is avoiding it. He did this to me. I am so freaking angry that he lied to me for like... and I can't... it feels like I can't tell anyone. I can't complain about it. I can't criticize it. I can't even bring it up. And it's really hard in that moment to not say that I'm... it's hard to feel like there should be no place for that anger. Like that that's misplaced or that that's inappropriate. (pause)

THERAPIST: How about those feelings? So forget about there. What about here with me? Like what... I have a feeling we have not talked very much about that. [00:37:05] Literally, we could say we'd spent a few sessions for part of the session on it. Not much.

CLIENT: I've talked about it... with you, I've talked about it more than anyone. And...

THERAPIST: And even still this isn't... it's been a very, very, very minor piece here. Where do you go with it right now? What...

CLIENT: I don't think about it. I pretend like it didn't happen. I try to focus on...

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Right. I mean, there's no point in thinking about... like I try not... and it's kind of easy to not go there very much thought-wise because I don't know much about what happened. I know that he slept 15 hours a day. That's pretty much all I know. That's all I know of what happened in those years. So when he sleeps until noon like he did yesterday and I feel frustrated about it and I know I can't say anything because that would be criticizing, I feel scared. Because I grew up watching my mom sleep in and stay in bed all day and like wear her pj's all day long and just never... and I know that Ivan (sp?) did that for a long time without me knowing. [00:38:08]

And it's just like... but I can't say anything and I don't do anything with it. So I can't mentally obsess over it even. Like what happened during that time very much because all I know is that he was sleeping a lot. And that he was coming to see me on weekends and saying that he was getting his reading done ahead of time. That's pretty much like what I know.

THERAPIST: So a piece of what must be preoccupying is that how little you actually know even. Like you don't even... you haven't even been filled in yet about the storyline about what happened, why it happened, where he was, what happened next.

CLIENT: I was a little surprised though because I said something in couples therapy about it not being about the fact that he hadn't actually finished the program or that he didn't actually have a master's. And Ivan (sp?) said, "It is a little bit about that." [00:39:00]

And I just thought yea, it is. And I never gave that credit because I didn't want to admit that or I thought I couldn't admit that. But the fact that Ivan (sp?) picked up on it without me saying it felt a little OK. And I also felt a little OK having that out there that actually it is disappointing or like actually it would be nice if you had finished that or like... so that felt a little OK.

THERAPIST: Right. How... like what an ordinary, understandable feeling.

CLIENT: So that was a little good. I will say sometimes when I find myself lately feeling like frustrated about like he didn't do something around the apartment or whatever, I feel somewhat responsible. But I don't know if I want to say it's a good thing. But sometimes I feel like it almost is a tiny bit good when I look at it and say he didn't do this. I'm mad at him. This is frustrating or I still don't have that skirt to wear. [00:40:02]

It feels a little bit good because it feels like I can acknowledge that's Ivan (sp?) responsibility. He's not doing it. It's not my fault that he's not doing it. I'm not making him not do it. I don't have to go do it because he didn't even if like... so it may be bad that it goes more into the anger category. But it feels a little bit good to place that anger not on me.

THERAPIST: Yes. And I don't... this is... again when you say it goes into the anger category, Ramona (sp?), I think what you're describing these little examples you're saying to me now is a new kind of anger. It's something in that middle space that is at... it's like more reality anger instead of so much of your criticism when it comes out early on.

Remember how I've always said it really feels like it's sort of what's just underlying that criticism of the other is your criticism of yourself, right? In other words, you're feeling so upset about how this looks for you. Like what it means about yourself that he didn't do that. [00:41:08] Like what you should've done. And then you get angry sort of as a secondary response to your own anger at yourself. That's very different anger than he didn't do what he was supposed to do. Totally not my responsibility and I'm pissed off.

It's more just... it's a linear he didn't do it. I'm disappointed. I'm annoyed. Instead of he didn't do this thing. Oh my God, why didn't I remind him more? What's wrong with me that I didn't do it instead? Oh my God, what's wrong with me that I'm now being critical of him? And then it just boils out as rage, right? Do you see how there's a... one is just you're annoyed. You didn't keep up with his responsibilities, nothing to do with you.

It does affect you. It does affect you that you don't have your (inaudible at 00:41:51). So that seems good to me. That's like that middle ground place. That's the middle ground where I think there will be room to communicate that anger over time in a way that elicits more and more empathy because it's actually coming from a more straightforward place inside you. So that's big. (pause)

CLIENT: Is there something I should... I guess it feels like sharing that anger in couples therapy is very unproductive. Or it does not elicit a helpful response especially given Ivan's (sp?) tendency to withdraw. What should I do with that? Like I've said before in here that I didn't think it would be helpful to get to that point because what do you do with that? Do you just sit around being angry that the laundry is not done? It's still not done and what do you do with that?

THERAPIST: (pause) So a starting point is how to have this conversation in couples therapy for example about saying from the place of your own anxiety and vulnerability and hurt and... because at the heart of the matter is you don't want Ivan (sp?) to be someone you're disappointed in constantly. [00:43:04] You would like a partner. You're not so angry that you want to get divorced today. You actually really would like to feel closer to him and one of the ways you could feel closer is if he kept up his end of the bargain a little bit more.

So how you start to bring that into the room is not from a place of rage but from a place of hope for more contact and connection. Like this could be... you could say, talking about being intimate for example. That it feels like you want to have a little more trust in him and feel proud of him and that that will flow out of that. What happens when you say that? (pause) That's a way of bringing in what your needs are. Not from a rage perspective but the same as, "This is kind of what would work for me in a relationship." You're not even saying that that's the right answer anymore. Do you know what I mean? [00:44:00] See how that's also a difference.

But I think the old rage, it would be 100% this is the right way of doing it and he's not doing it. Like I bet you there might be someone who wouldn't be very bothered by Ivan (sp?) letting... waiting till the garbage is overflowing who wouldn't be an obstacle to them sleeping with him. Do you know what I mean? Like it just... it doesn't hit the same buttons inside.

CLIENT: That's not why. It's more like there was this hugs... like Ivan (sp?) actually did lie about the pretty significant chunk of his life for a very long time. Including like multiple discussions where I ask him very directly if he felt that he could take on more responsibility. If it was really a good time to get married. We had a lot of conversations. We went through premarital counseling like... and very directly. He had countless opportunities to come clean and never did. And I understand at that point if you've been lying over and over and over, like how do you at one point just... and he finally did which like you said, was probably a lot of progress. [00:45:01]

But I guess what I'm saying is when that happens and someone is having a totally different life from the one they lead you to believe they are for the five out of seven days of the week that you don't see them whatever. To just drop that and then have an hour conversation total. Why do I want to be closer to you? Like why should I trust you more? Like that's really the...

THERAPIST: Well, why would you even want to open your heart up to trying to? I mean, you...

CLIENT: It doesn't seem like an appropriate thing to do at the moment. It just doesn't even feel like the most important... so there's a tiny bit that I feel disrespected or feel unappreciated when he doesn't pull his weight or step up. But it's more like this big underlying... this has happened with Ivan (sp?). It's happened to me a ton in the past with my parents. When am I going to learn? (pause)

THERAPIST: I don't think I even know yet the... as you just rattled it off really quickly just now. [00:46:02] But it just feels like there's so much talk about even in that moment by moment what you just said about that you gave him... like you actually had direct conversations with each other.

CLIENT: I was... yea. No, I was concerned even because I knew he left, lived home with his parents, worked full-time at a pet shop down the road. This is not the same track that we... even if he really left because... and I felt some concern and my parents made known that they were concerned, my sister. That we were young, we were making a lot of big changes all at once. And maybe waiting a year or two wasn't a terrible idea. And we had this discussion over and over and because I was concerned about it and...

THERAPIST: Remind me, Ramona (sp?), where were... so you... where were you at the time that these conversations are happening? You moved home for a little bit.

CLIENT: No, I was at college.

THERAPIST: OK. So you're both there seeing each other all the time.

CLIENT: He would come...

THERAPIST: You didn't have any time long distance time.

CLIENT: No, we did. He lived in Texas where his seminary was and I lived in Louisiana where college was.

THERAPIST: That's what I thought. [00:47:03]

CLIENT: So he would come to visit on the weekends. And then after he dropped out he moved home to New Orleans and so I would visit him there. He would visit me sometimes and that's pretty much where those sessions happened.

THERAPIST: How long were you doing the long distance then?

CLIENT: Well, it was six months.

THERAPIST: Six months.

CLIENT: Well, six months New Orleans, college. And then it was a year and a half that he was in Texas.

THERAPIST: While you were in college.

CLIENT: Yea, pretty much. I mean, if you don't include that summer. (pause)

THERAPIST: So we're out of our time.

CLIENT: No, I know.

THERAPIST: I'm going to stop. Can we come back...

CLIENT: No, I would appreciate that.

THERAPIST: ...with this story from the very beginning? And I know... I feel like I know pieces of it but there's just a lot more to get to know about it and understand the unfolding. So let's come back here. I will... so 9:40 Tuesday, 8:15 Thursday. Let me know about either of those. [00:48:07] If anything else opens up either next week or this week that fits in with what you've described of your schedule, I will let you know and for sure we'll meet Monday.

CLIENT: Yea, yea. So nothing this week but potentially next week.

THERAPIST: Yea. I mean, this week the only thing I have is Wednesday at 12:10.

CLIENT: OK, great.

THERAPIST: Hard for you unless I get a cancellation. But they do happen. It's summer so I will let you know as soon as I know (inaudible at 00:48:33).

CLIENT: Thank you.

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