TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: The lantern?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: No. No, I I may have had it up in the -

CLIENT: Oh, ok.

THERAPIST: other window before.

CLIENT: Where is it from?

THERAPIST: Originally from India.

CLIENT: All right.

CLIENT: Hmm. Ok. So last yesterday I got really overwhelmed and it was more more than I like knew that the feelings that I was feeling were feelings of being overwhelmed that I didn't know I was overwhelmed by. I think I have kind of a crunch time at in lab. I'm giving this big talk at the beginning of January and signed myself up to give a lab meeting next Thursday. And -

THERAPIST: To like a group of -

CLIENT: To just my lab -

THERAPIST: talk?

CLIENT: Yeah, or just to get feedback on what I've done so far.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And so I'm doing a bunch of stuff in prepar like a little bit faster than I normally would, which is part of why I schedule the lab meeting. So it's some of that involves going to Shrewsbury and helping a collaborator do an experiment more quickly. So of it involves trouble-shooting this high tech sequencer thing that I sort of took over in the summer.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And like getting it to work, and some of it just involves working more.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And some of it also involves like learning programming, like lots and lots of stuff every day. So it's a lot of stuff that's not quite in my control, but that's a little bit in my control. But that's been really fun and productive, and makes me feel good. But there's I guess there's a little bit of time pressure. And there was this holiday party yesterday at which I like it was like really lavish. There was free like 30 different kinds of beer on tap. And a bunch of free food. And it was a party that I had never been to, but could have gone every year. So this year was my first year and I was planning to stay awhile and take advantage of it, but I was conflicted about yesterday was also the first day without jazz. Jazz ended, we had our concert last weekend -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: which was fun and -

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: Uh-huh. I'm pretty happy to have a break, to have the emotional break.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But but it was good. So I wanted to go to boxing yesterday because I never get to go to boxing on Wednesdays. So anyway I I there's a lot of like discomfort around not being in a good physical state for me. So it was like, ‘Boxing's at 6:00 and if I drink a beer at 3:00, is that going to work?' Like, ‘What percent alcohol should the beer be?' And then I did drink a beer and sort of had to rush to get to boxing, and it was really hard and great, but I came home completely exhausted and I always feel a bit more anxious -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: after boxing and before dinner. Like when Jeremy was making dinner, which was delicious and amazing and I had asked him to have it ready sort of around the time boxing was over. And it was ready like a half hour later, which is very good for him.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But still I don't know. I I could just sense myself getting really anxious and feeling really physically sort of tired and drained, and almost like I was getting sick. And just felt like I was losing control.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I don't know. I I guess I had a little bit of control because I I was able to identify, ‘Eating dinner will feel really good. And we are going to eat dinner and it is going to be tasty, and I just have to wait until it's ready.' Which is really hard when there's all this there's sort of this anxiety around that being the thing you need to do right now.

THERAPIST: Eat?

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: Ok.

CLIENT: Any way, I think I am getting sick and I developed a bad sore throat, so I I think it was a combination of being under the weather, being tired from boxing, and being hungry. And feeling a little bit overwhelmed at work. So I sort of just like floated and floated through the evening. I got into bed pretty earlier and just like -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: sort of stayed there, which is fine. We had to go grocery shopping in the (inaudible). (pause) I dreamt about Matthew (sp) again last night. (pause) The dream was he was leaving to go to his new lab and I was dropping him off, and he was about to walk into a meeting where he was giving a presentation on his first day. And I like waved down the hall and said, ‘Bye Matthew, I'm going to miss you.' And then I started crying.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And I think I've been feeling pretty sad that he's leaving. He leaves the day I give that talk officially.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: It's kind of nice, because I'm talking mostly about his work and how it's motivated the work that I'm working on but don't really have much to much data yet.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: So the data -

THERAPIST: He will be there?

CLIENT: He will not be there.

THERAPIST: Oh?

CLIENT: Yeah, he's leaving that day. Like that's his first day in his new lab.

THERAPIST: Ah, ok. That's not his last day in -

CLIENT: No. So that's pretty soon, that's like next week, and then the first week of January.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And he is going to be around because I think he ultimately wants to come back, and he has two papers that he's working on, and just sort of loves it. So I have a hard time imagining him staying away. And he's going to MIT, which means -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: that he is closer to me and my home, and it will be easier to see him in some respect, but I don't know it's so easy to develop a relationship with somebody when they're in your work place, especially when it's the sort of work place like a research lab.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I think I'm just happier when he's around. He's a pretty phenomenal person.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: He he's so generous with his time and so passionate about the work.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And has sort of pioneered a lot of stuff that's going on. I mean, he's going to have five first author papers when he graduates or he has graduated. When he by the time he's done with the work at -

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: MIT.

THERAPIST: That's pretty good.

CLIENT: It's a lot.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And he's not competitive or -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: you know, he's just a pretty likeable guy, as I said before.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I think he's scared a little bit about moving on.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Some of it this is an opportunity for me to be more of a leader.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Yeah, I which I imagine is (inaudible), not necessarily with the being the leader part, but my impression is that it's a bit reassuring to have three and or four other people around.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) The four other people?

THERAPIST: There was a another guy -

CLIENT: Oh, Kurt. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Kurt no, Thomas is has been in the lab since I joined the lab. So he's always been around. Kurt just joined like one month ago or something. Or two months -

THERAPIST: I am getting other people confused? I thought there was somebody else.

CLIENT: Well, there's Joanne (sp).

THERAPIST: No, this was the guy that you had an erotic dream about.

CLIENT: Thomas. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Oh, that's Thomas?

CLIENT: Yeah, that's Thomas.

THERAPIST: Ok. I thought there were two guys like that.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: No? Ok.

CLIENT: It's just Thomas.

THERAPIST: My goodness. I am just off my -

CLIENT: That's ok. (pause) Yeah, and I guess it's just it's kind of hard to know what to do with feelings that kind of are like just inside of you. (pause) Like I think part of me wants to tell him, but I think that's the part of me that wants to know what he thinks about me.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And there's another part of me that is just at peace with how what the feelings are and there's no need to explore them or justify them or -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: do anything. And I imagine that out of sight, out of mind -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: will a little bit come into play.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I guess there's always something about feeling involving there like wanting or (inaudible) like to be expressed.

CLIENT: Yeah, but these aren't really appropriate feelings to to share.

THERAPIST: Yeah, sure. I didn't mean like I'm not trying to encourage you to talk about them. I'm just saying -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: like I view something inherent to what feelings are like -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: that they want out.

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: And yeah, which is yeah. And there are other things, but like a reason not to express them, but -

CLIENT: Well, I don't know. I think Jeremy and I exist in a world which is sort of ok with the fact that people are complicated and there -

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: there are feelings that come up and then you know -

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean you said already you told him. That's what -

CLIENT: Yeah, I have. Yeah, yeah. I told him all about the dream and -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: he sort he knows that I'm sort of attached to Thomas.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah. So Joanne is going to leave is going to move to physical spaces kind of soon, too, in a couple of months after Thomas leaves. And those are my two like anchor family points in the lab.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I think the lab has become a very, very important part of adjusting to like being on my own -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: in terms of like my relationships and the way that I feel in lab, which is very predictable and neutral.

THERAPIST: And I follow what you say, like, the lab has become an important place to adjust to being on your own.

CLIENT: I guess to adjust like having this be my home -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: not with my parents or Jeremy.

THERAPIST: Right, the lab itself is kind of one of your anchors?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I feel so like there's so little uncertainty there about how to feel.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Like all the times I feel overwhelmed, or agitated, or anxious, it's always like on the way to something, or at home. A lot of times it's at home.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Or like when I'm by myself.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But it never it's almost as if keeping busy in lab is like a defense or a maybe it's just really healthy. I mean, it feels really healthy.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But I'm uncomfortable with that, because I don't really identify with home being the workplace, I think.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: It would be really nice to have that feeling at home.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Like neutral like a neutral space, just predictable, I -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I can always find like my -

THERAPIST: Yeah, you remember how it was growing up.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: Where home was totally home base.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I can always find a rhythm.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: And sort of I guess there are people around, there there's not going to be a long time without an interaction. And the interactions are like pretty simple to me.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. I guess I had the (inaudible) there's some way as sort of close and supportive, as it sounds to me like you and Jeremy are with each other, that there's some kind of stability or structure, or a whole like quality that isn't there at least yet -

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: at home. And I don't whether it's something like what you would say the (inaudible) or you know, having sort of, I don't know, older siblings there or something.

CLIENT: Yeah. Like a sort of range of siblings?

THERAPIST: Yeah, as well as the (inaudible) -

CLIENT: And the objectives and the goals and sort of the tasks are so they're kind of simple and there there's a lot of unity in that, in all the people.

THERAPIST: So you think it's like a kind collectiveness together, having a group of people around?

CLIENT: Yeah, with like a couple of anchor points.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I mean, there's a ton of people around and I'm quite friendly with all of them.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Like maybe 15 or 20 regular people who I see everyday.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And their undergraduates, graduates, young graduate student, old graduate students, post-doc, and faculty members and custodians and -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: the cafeteria people and the security guards, and all of these people I know by name and I don't know. There's something nice about having been somewhere for four years.

THERAPIST: Yeah, sure.

CLIENT: And almost it's almost like Jeremy and I have really not been together in in this way for for that long.

THERAPIST: Ok.

CLIENT: And Jeremy is totally figuring stuff out, too. So there's a lot of in insecurity, not necessarily in feelings or personal insecurity, but just there's not a lot of security in either of our like more nuanced, harder parts of life. Like I am still challenged by the way that I feel sometimes, and I'm still challenged by meeting or want having a need to move to really anchor myself here. And Jeremy is still challenged by his sense of progress and productivity in life, and sort of needing a sense of having a career, but not knowing where to start.

THERAPIST: Yeah, there are ways you guys, I suppose, aren't as settled into quite like you will be, and probably will be before too long.

CLIENT: I think there's a lot of like I don't know. Every couple has their own personality. I don't want to use the word ‘clash' but I will. Because I don't think it's necessarily a negative thing all the time, but -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: like I can't really go a weekend right now without seeing other people. Jeremy often complains that we do too much and he's overwhelmed, socially. Just like structure around dinner time and me at me needing more communication, and my needing to get a Christmas tree and put presents under it, my needing to get a bird feeder. And like those are only like a few things on the list of things that I would like to have in our home -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: like like before getting a dog, which is our ultimate -

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: dream, and fantasy, and goal.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: So like I'm always thinking, ‘Maybe we should get fish. That would be that would feel really cozy to come home to fish.'

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And we should invite these people and I don't know. It's just that we have different ways of sort of settling in and Jeremy's way is very much like setting up his music studio.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Like he talks every day, all the time about which new Mac powerful Mac computer he should get. And like my desk has like six plants on it and his desk has like $10,000 worth of equipment on it. I mean, those are our different homes, but it's -sometimes it any way, sometimes it clashes.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I I just keep thinking about how different this must feel for you as where you're calling home?

CLIENT: Yeah. It's really different.

THERAPIST: That must be, among other things, some some kind of block that's so unsettling.

CLIENT: Yeah, it is. I don't know that aspects of it are different.

THERAPIST: I'm very sure that there are certain ways in which Jeremy takes care of you pretty well, but other ways in which he doesn't.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And which and in which you were well taken care of for (inaudible).

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And and in (inaudible).

CLIENT: But -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Jeremy could take care of me in those ways but probably it would be best if he didn't. I don't know if I can think of those ways for like -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: the specific ways right now.

THERAPIST: I sort of get this sense in the lab and at home that you kind of the other way there are generally sort of backstops -

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: when and in the ways that you need them. So that's not always true with Jeremy.

CLIENT: Yeah. He's kind of hard to get to sometimes.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: He's tough we talked a little bit when you brought up the word ‘misanthropic.'

THERAPIST: Oh, when -

CLIENT: Two weeks ago.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: And -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I asked Jeremy, ‘Do you do you know of any misanthropic qualities that I have that'he it was nice that he said the same thing that I said, which is, ‘You're really hard on fat people.'

THERAPIST: Oh, really?

CLIENT: Which is what I said here, is like ‘Maybe I have a little bit of anger and frustration with obesity and overweight people, obese people and overweight people.' But anyway, Jeremy was like pretty much, ‘No,' and then he asked me, ‘Do you think I have misanthropic qualities?' And I said, ‘Yeah,' and he said, ‘Yeah.' And we had a good laugh about it, but I think actually that's it's kind of hard to be a partner to someone who's need for people is or even like for people is so different. (pause) And he doesn't sugar coat a lot of stuff and I think most people in the world -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: do, especially like my mom.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: She doesn't she has her own special sugar, which is like mom sugar, where she's being totally honest and has the best my best in mind. But somehow like she just has this -

THERAPIST: Way of putting things?

CLIENT: yeah, this sweet, caring, positive, sort of coating on everything she does, which is her personality, coupled with our relationship. But people in the lab know me and I think like me a lot and there's this sense of people really people who really work with me to to help me and -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: to make me feel better and to do stuff for me, and I I do the same.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And at home and I think this will just come with time and with communication that this is something that I need. Jeremy does very little in the way of I don't know, like saying stuff for the sake of being kind of comforting and nice.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: If he's really if he's feeling that way then it it'll come out really clearly, but if he's not, then it's almost like, ‘Hello, hello?'

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Yeah. (inaudible)

CLIENT: My mom said to me that that it isn't one of our that's going to be one of our challenges.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Pretty early on -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: in Jeremy's and mine's relationship.

THERAPIST: Do you have any thoughts about stopping here or -

CLIENT: Right, so like all these things are stopping at once.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And I thought a lot about how you were stopping and like what would it be good to talk about. And I thought a lot about what you were feeling and -

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: what it must be like for you, and whether you have like, in your training, a some kind of closure, ending thing that you do. And Jeremy really made fun of me a lot yesterday, and started saying lots of things like I was saying, ‘Well, I I just don't know. I'm thinking more than usual about what to talk about.' And Jeremy was like, ‘Well, you could talk about how you're thinking more than usual about what to talk about. You could talk about how like,' um, I think I'm kind of sad to be stopping.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But I'm also I think I'm ok with it.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I it's going to be strange for me to not be able to have a sense of who you are.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Like and not really have any more chances to -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: to figure that out. Jeremy asked me why I was so curious about you, and I think it's I don't really go more than a half hour with a person without really trying to dig in dig a little bit.

THERAPIST: Are there particular things that you're curious about? I mean, I you know, if I'm likely, I would speak to them to assuage your curiousity. I don't mean to (inaudible) and disappoint, but I I I just wonder (inaudible)?

CLIENT: I think I'm just curious about like stuff that you would that I would ask -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: a person that I've had some intention of getting to know.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Like as I've said before, ‘Do you have children?' I think that's the main for some reason, marriage and children I guess not for some reason.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: For many predictable reasons, marriage and children seem to be a pretty important like commonality point.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And I think I noticed like in the first 10 seconds that you had a wedding ring on.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. I do.

CLIENT: Ok. Do you have children? Do you have pets? What is your meditation practice like?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. (pause) What about my meditation practice?

CLIENT: Like all sorts of things, like it's it's useful, because I don't really know a lot of people who have a meditation practice that I talk to. So some of it is just like what do other people in the world do?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And then some of it is like you, in particular, like when do you sit, where do you sit, do you sit, do you do other things, what what are the sorts of thoughts and feelings that come in to your mind and how do you address them? And do you think psychology as a do you think that a practice substitutes or augments or takes a similar form to therapy in your own opinion, both as a therapist and as a meditator?

THERAPIST: I'm happy to give my two-cents, any way, on that last part.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: I mean in my experience, so let's see well, I guess I can tell you a little about myself (inaudible). So I mean one thing is I'm in psycholytic training and almost done. And that requires sort of (inaudible) training to be in analysis for a long time -

CLIENT: Huh.

THERAPIST: like which means four times a week, I'm on the couch, and usually for five to ten years, something like that. And -

CLIENT: Wait, the training requires you -

THERAPIST: to have your own analysis -

CLIENT: to have your own analysis?

THERAPIST: in addition to seeing people in your -

CLIENT: that's crazy.

THERAPIST: in your own analysis, yeah.

CLIENT: Whoa.

THERAPIST: And I did a fair amount, I would say, I mean like usually a few times a day, when (inaudible) the day has compared to. And I guess for me I found like analysis for my sitting practice. (phone rings)

CLIENT: Sorry. My (inaudible). No. (inaudible) doesn't know. Ok.

THERAPIST: Uh, let's see.

CLIENT: Analysis is helpful for -

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean in the same way that one's issues like one's issues come up pretty directly in one sitting, I think.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, you always they come up in work at work or in a relationship, but in a in a little different in that you kind of have time to feel and think about them when you're sitting there, you know. Whereas at work, you're also trying to work in addition to dealing with whatever things are there. And so like treatment I think helps to, you know, sort out, assuage, hopefully address some of the issues, which then you're not confronted or plagued with as you're sitting. And and certainly sitting seems to have some of the benefit to have and to do things treatment doesn't do. It seems to me like you know, like it depends a lot, I guess, on what kind of practice you do, but it can have a (inaudible) on you, you yourself, what your feelings are going to be like and -

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: the one you will be with and have (inaudible) I guess. It seems to me there's kind of an existential level of things that are pretty aggressive through therapy. Therapy can help with existential issues, but it doesn't necessarily address ones that are existential (inaudible).

CLIENT: I think I think the practice of being still, for me, without the option of stopping or going to something else -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: is somehow like the most calming or clarifying thing I've ever done.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I get some of that sense when I'm like very, very immersed in something like -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: either because I know that it's going to end soon, or because it's genuinely very captivating.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But most things in my life are not that.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I think I'm pretty comfortable and almost have a deep need or impulse, or maybe an anxiety for requiring me to sort of be always weighing different things and movement. And I hadn't noticed a lot of that until recently.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Which is just being and just walking, and talking, and doing pretty much anything there there are like four or five other cogs always going.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And it's not always just multi-tasking, some of it is like really weighing whether there's there's other stuff that's better.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: So I have been sitting has helped a little bit with that, but mostly so far, I mean, I haven't so far it's just made the contrast clear.

THERAPIST: Right. We should stop for now, having said it all. Hmm.

CLIENT: Thanks.

THERAPIST: You're very welcome. It's been a pleasure for me.

CLIENT: Good. It's been a pleasure for me.

THERAPIST: That's good.

CLIENT: I will let you know either way if (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Going to be (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Yeah, give me (inaudible).

CLIENT: See ya.

END TRANSCRIPT