TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: So there's a lot going on.

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: A lot we were going to talk about anyway...

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: ...you wanted to talk about. How are you?

CLIENT: I guess feeling kind of low. Kind of powerless a little bit. (pause) Yea. (pause)

THERAPIST: Emily Farrow gave me a quick synopsis. She just sent an e-mail to both me and to Dr. Bourd so we had a heads up. I think Dr. Bourd (inaudible at 00:00:43) Ivan (sp?) to see if he wanted to talk.

CLIENT: Yea. I don't know. (pause)

THERAPIST: It'd be helpful for me to hear and I don't know if this is what you're wanting to talk about, by the way. I assumed yes because it's front and center. But if you want to table this and come back to it another time, we can do that, too.

CLIENT: No, I feel like (inaudible at 00:01:02).

THERAPIST: Yea. What happened from your perspective? Can you share it with me?

CLIENT: Yea. It's really humiliating. I haven't told anyone. Even Dr. Farrow, Ivan (sp?) actually brought it up.

THERAPIST: Oh, he did.

CLIENT: He did.

THERAPIST: I didn't know that. I didn't realize that.

CLIENT: I mean, I think he knew that if he didn't, I probably... I would have because it actually happened the night before. So it was definitely in front of my mind. I mean, there's not a lot to tell. I was sleeping and I woke up to that happening. And Ivan (sp?) pretended to be asleep. And I said, "I know you're awake." And then pretty much we both got up and I talked. [00:02:09] And his like first response was, "I hate myself for being so attracted to you," which is not an apology. It's almost more of a self-pitying like... yea. (pause)

THERAPIST: Ramona (sp?), just to pause for a second and go back. Do you mind my asking a little more specifically what happened?

CLIENT: Yea. No, it's just...

THERAPIST: I know it's hard to say but...

CLIENT: It's so... I don't know. Maybe I shouldn't be the one who feels so embarrassed but it's very embarrassing. So I usually wear like long... like some kind of pj pants, a t-shirt, underwear to sleep. It's just what I wear. And I woke up and his hand was in my underwear. And I'm not totally sure...

THERAPIST: In on your vagina?

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: And inside the (inaudible at 00:03:02).

CLIENT: I'm not totally sure because I evidentially slept through part of it. And this was not the first time.

THERAPIST: When you woke up, was his hand just sitting there? Was it like...

CLIENT: No, it was... there was some kind of movement. I'm not entirely... like I said, I was waking up so I'm not totally clear on everything that happened before then. Or like what was really the intent or what was really... but...

THERAPIST: And when you say he pretended to be asleep, like it's presumably when he took his hand out and then pretended to be asleep?

CLIENT: Yea. No, he had his eyes closed and I think he was hoping that I would just fall back to sleep and not be sure what was going on which is disgusting. And this has happened. He admits that it happened once before. And I told him there have been a couple of times when I've woken and I'm not quite sure what's happening. And I couldn't... I mean, I'm a deep sleeper, very, and he knows that and clearly took advantage of that. [00:04:05]

He says sometimes he's just put his hand on my hip or whatever around my waist while I'm sleeping and so I can't be sure if like the times that I... because now I really of course wonder how many times it really has happened. But he's saying at least once before. And maybe something that's exceptionally disturbing to me is that he pretended to be asleep which to me I guess I assume he had no intention of coming clean of like this... I don't know how long this would've gone on. So I talked, he withdrew. And...

THERAPIST: And what did you say?

CLIENT: (pause) I told him I didn't understand. I asked him if this had happened before. I explained that there had been a number of nights where I wasn't quite sure what was going on and that I wasn't conscious for very long but that I could tell that his hand was somewhere. [00:05:03] But I hadn't wanted to say anything because I wasn't sure. And because I'm such a deep sleeper I really wasn't and that's not an OK thing to just throw about an accusation. This time it was crystal clear.

And I sort of said this is why I feel so frustrated when like whatever type of physical contact we have, it's never... it feels like it's never enough. That particular night he had brought up like, "Oh, maybe in a month or two I want to start looking for programs," which led into a conversation in which I basically said like, "But you..."

THERAPIST: Programs, graduate programs you mean?

CLIENT: Yea. No, he has no idea what in, no idea what for, no idea what job he wants, no idea what... and that resulted for me... like he came home from work and I had just said like, "You feel good about how things are going? Do you want to... are you feeling like you want to stay there? [00:06:11] Your six months is coming up in another month. What are you thinking?" And that's where he went from that and he just like... so that had been kind of a mess but we had talked through it to some extent and I was still upset about it because for obvious reasons, I guess I would think.

But before we went to bed, I had hugged him. (pause) And we were talking in bed for a little while. He had put his hand on my waist. Just on my hip and I guess that was OK. But I had kind of rolled over and kind of like I was going to sleep. I was tired which should be OK. And I... so I guess I sort of brought to his attention that even if we do have something I feel like it's never enough. There's never like a point at which I cannot be criticized for not doing as much or... and that it... I sort of accused him of not asking me or asking for consent or anything like that. [00:07:12] Because he didn't want to be rejected and why bother. I told him...

THERAPIST: But for violating you, Ramona (sp?). I just want to be, so you know I'm 100% clear, this is a violation. It does not matter if you're married.

CLIENT: No, I...

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:07:35) going in and taking something without asking you.

CLIENT: So...

THERAPIST: Violating your body and your wishes.

CLIENT: That's what I think I need to maybe hear something maybe from you or from Dr. Farrow because I don't really know how to... I told Dr. Farrow I didn't want to overreact and she said I wasn't. But I really...

THERAPIST: She was very clear in her e-mail to me just so you know where she is also. You may want to hear it from her as well but she was horrified by his behavior, absolutely horrified for you. [00:08:04]

CLIENT: I don't know what to do. I don't know what to think. I spent part of the weekend trying to think of ways to sweep it under the rug and the fact that it happens. I even thought about... so that night I asked him to sleep on the couch. And I... in that moment, I hesitated but then I ultimately did. And he didn't say much. And he went and he slept on the couch and he slept on the couch the past... like since then.

The other night I thought about, well, maybe he could sleep in the bed. He knows that people are upset at... he knows I'm upset about it and Dr. Farrow knows about it. He wouldn't do that again but I guess I don't feel... I don't know if safe is the right word but clearly I'm such a deep sleeper that I can't help it. (chuckling) I've always been that way. I can't help it. (pause)

THERAPIST: You're saying you'd hope he wouldn't do it again but you're not totally convinced it sounds like that...

CLIENT: No. [00:09:03]

THERAPIST: ...you can't trust that he won't.

CLIENT: No, I think Ivan (sp?) has violated so many aspects of trust in different ways and this is obviously a very different way than telling a lie or hiding a lot of things. Like this is a very different type of violation. I just don't... I'm really looking for someone to sort of tell me how to respond because I guess I don't know if in some marriages if that would be considered OK or if that would be considered like an initiation of something. I mean, clearly he wasn't try... his intent was not to wake. That was... that's abundantly clear. So I think that was not his intent. (pause) Yea, I'm looking for someone to show me how to react to him. Also, I guess trying to express that I am heavily relying I guess on you and Dr. Farrow to direct me in how to react because I haven't been able to tell anyone. [00:10:03]

I can't tell anyone. I am so, so, so, so embarrassed, humiliated. And it's the type of thing that you can't just... I don't know. There's no way to tell someone like that without it changing the way they would see him. I even like... I was so upset in the moment I even suggested that he... if that was what he was prioritizing which quite frankly if he's able to talk about things, he's not able to look at me all the time, like he's not able to pick up his end and really put in the effort at home, it feels a lot of the time. But he's interested in that. I suggested like we could go our separate ways and he could understand that he could have that type of relationship with someone most likely. Someone who would not ask him to do household chores or talk with them about their day or like... and I know that's kind of a harsh thing I'm sure to say. [00:11:01] But...

THERAPIST: I don't think so.

CLIENT: ...it really felt like if this is what you want, I'm not interested. Go find someone who is. And I hear that that's not a polite way to... but I just like...

THERAPIST: That's your judgment of you.

CLIENT: Maybe but I... like I said, "Why would this be your solution? Why wouldn't you have an affair? Why wouldn't you leave me to go like have that type of..." It's just... in fact I asked him that and he said, "Well, because I don't really want to be with anyone but you." And I felt like but you don't actually want to be with me. You don't want my consent. You don't want like the full relationship with like commitment to more than just... (pause)

THERAPIST: Yea, I mean, so many things to say, I'm thinking, talk about in this. Ramona (sp?), I first want to ask you because I hear you saying I'm looking for someone and I need you and Dr. Farrow to tell me what to think and feel. [00:12:07] And I hear that very powerfully like in some ways like the help you need that you do need help with this.

But what I also hear is that you're not trusting your own reaction so much that you would need us to tell you what you should be feeling. So I'm first curious like, what are you feeling? What... that if you find your experience... you're very calm talking about this for example. So I have no... I don't know what... like where did you take this inside yourself if you knew you could have... like feel whatever you wanted to feel and that was OK, what are you feeling?

CLIENT: I guess I'm not totally sure. Part of me thought like that I just wanted to be done. Like I almost wished he would do something that I could talk about, something that horrible that I could talk about that I could be done. [00:13:07]

Part of me wants to, like I said, totally sweep it under the rug and keep holding on to Ivan (sp?) from long ago that I felt comfortable with and happy with. Like wanting to spend time with, wanting to like... I know this is irrational and I know this is... you know this about me. But I've already thought ten steps ahead and if Ivan (sp?) and I split up, I can... like I feel like I could never date again and I could never remarry. I could never have children. I could never so many things. That's my... and I know that's a lot of black and white. I know it's fortune telling and I know it's all those depressive... I'm aware of that. (chuckling) But it's still happening in my thought process.

I'm already thinking like I would need to buy a bed for myself. I would need to like find my own little apartment. [00:14:01] I just... and what... and I would have to like not see my friends anymore because I couldn't explain to them what happened ever. So I know that's unhealthy. But that's the thought process I've gone through.

THERAPIST: No, it's just so helpful for me to hear what your internal process is like right now. Because one of the things you're describing, Ramona (sp?), is that this thing that's happened is like in some ways it's pretty horrible and it's in line. In some ways this kind of fits Ivan (sp?) not being above ground and doing the work to like really get to somewhere where you could have a physical intimacy that both were enjoying but finding this back channel that's violating of you. Like that's... he's done that in other ways with the taking the easy secret path because it's too much work for him to bring it above ground and address it directly front and center. Put in the work to get it there. [00:15:06]

So it's like here it is again. And in some ways in the most violating way of all is your physical body that's at stake in this sense. And I think you're furious but I also think what you're saying is immediately you get very scared, too. Like it opens up all the fantasying about just wishing maybe this is it. Maybe this is the thing you were waiting for where you finally get to say, "This is not OK and I really believe myself that this is not OK." But then what comes into mind? That you're scared. How on earth would you be by yourself? Would you ever find someone and marry again? Would you ever be about to have kids again? How would you even be able to tell people you weren't with Ivan (sp?)?

CLIENT: That's the thing when it comes down the logistics of being by myself. I don't feel too... I mean, like it would be an adjustment and I've clearly not had my own apartment. [00:16:04] And it's like I would have to probably have roommates or like a really tiny place. I'd have to go through all of that. That's one thing. As soon as I get a job, I think I could handle that. And I know that Emma (sp?) would help and then my parents would help me figure stuff out. But I guess it's more... this is going to sound really stupid, really stupid.

THERAPIST: It's OK.

CLIENT: But when I think... I cringe inside. I just like completely cringe inside when I think back to our wedding because we had this huge, beautiful, expensive wedding just over two years ago. And how could I ever face any of those people? (pause) How could I ever face any of them? (crying) How could ever explain what happened? How could I ever justify that? How could I look in the mirror and say, "I'm divorced and I'm 25?" [00:16:59]

Like what is the matter with me? Like clearly I can't... what I really would want would be like I was hoping things would work out with Ivan (sp?) and that we could make a lot of progress. And that it might be slow but that it'd be worthwhile. And I feel like I'm exhausted because I have put in a ton of work. A ton of freaking work and spent hours of expensive couples therapy. And I'm really pissed off because it feels like it's not being reciprocated. It feels like... it feels... I don't know. Like that's the whole... it feels like it's the class. It's a dramatic thing to say that people say when they're really angry, I guess, that it feels like I don't even know him because I don't... I still don't understand what was going through his mind. I still don't understand him being capable of that.

And then there's this other part of me that thinks like maybe I'm overreacting. [00:18:01] We're married. If things were fine or whatever like... and if I had been awake and agreeing to it, like that's not what he did. And in itself wouldn't have been... there wouldn't have been something horrific about that. Like if we were agreeing to it.

THERAPIST: But there's a big difference between being awake and agreeing to it and being asleep and not agreeing to it, right?

CLIENT: (crying) Yea.

THERAPIST: It's like the difference between rape and consensual sex. There's a big difference.

CLIENT: So I think something that I'm not liking myself for but what I'm thinking is if he had raped me, that would probably... like that would be enough to say like I don't know if we could recover from that. I don't... but I can't put that label on this. This is certainly not the same thing. I think I'm looking for you or for Dr. Farrow to tell me like you need to have more self-respect and not put up with this type of thing. So like whatever that would look like or I don't know what the alternative would be. [00:19:02] I'm really trying to find a way to gauge a response because I'm not... I guess I feel like I don't want to just throw away all that work and that like I really was in this for keeps. It wasn't like we'll try it for a few years and see how it goes. (pause) I... sorry.

THERAPIST: No, no. It's OK. What were you going to say?

CLIENT: I'm just... I think that when you framed it in me being scared, I think the biggest thing I'm afraid of what everyone is going to say and the judgment and the... I actually suggested that his parents have been like on our case about coming for a visit even though we were just here. And it was already like a difficult subject and now I'm saying like, "Why don't you go for a few days because I really... like first of all, there's no way I'm going to visit your family right now. And second of all, like I could use some space from you."

And I actually said to him which is kind of a harsh thing to say that I said, "Don't lie to them about why I'm not there. [00:20:01] Like if they really want to know, then you can tell them." And that's... I felt bad about saying that and I almost like don't want him to tell them because I'm so... like it's just... I don't want anyone to see Ivan (sp?) that way. I don't want Ivan (sp?) to be that way. I don't want to be seen as like the over-reactor who would consider divorcing her husband because he touched her inappropriately while she was sleeping. Maybe that... I don't know if that's an overreaction. I don't... he didn't beat me. (pause)

THERAPIST: It's hard to trust your gut sense about what you feel and that it's valid to feel that. One of the things I said (inaudible at 00:20:45) Dr. Farrow in my response is that I'm horrified it happened obviously. But I'm particularly saddened and frustrated for you that it happened exactly right now because you were already working on trying to find ways of coming into the couples therapy to talk about needing to have your experience in being mad of all the things that you're mad but were going to talk about. That you feel like have not been able to be part of the process in a way that's allowed movement around the menu for you to move forward. To really get those feelings out, to be mad at Ivan (sp?), to have that be legitimate. And now this thing happens that it's sort of like an even louder example of that and you're doing the same thing. Do I get to have my experience or not?

So I think everything you're feeling, Ramona (sp?), is valid. I think you're furious at him for violating you and I think that fury is very, very valid. Had he done this, just to give you some context, let's say your relationship was really good. Was happy, things were going well, you're both respecting and trusting each other and he'd done this in the middle of the night, it might not feel as big a deal because you love him. [00:22:08] And even if you didn't want to do it, you'd wake up and say, "Hey, what are doing? Get off me." It wouldn't be a big deal because it wasn't symptomatic of the entire relationship.

Had he done something against your will, you never knew and you didn't want it to happen, it's still a huge deal in a way because he knows that you don't want that to happen right now. It's very, very clear. It's not ambiguous. Or if the relationship were good, maybe he would, right? Maybe he would be sort of trying and experimenting with something. So you're in a relationship right now that is really not going very well. You're very mad at him most of the time. He's disappointing. He's not keeping up his end of the bargain in a lot of different ways. And you've been very clear with him that sexual intimacy just feels off the table right now. It's not even that you haven't had that conversation. [00:23:01] You've had that conversation.

CLIENT: But it almost... anyways, it's stupid and if anyone ever told me this, I would say, "Why would you ever think that?" But it feels like it's almost my fault in a way because we haven't had... like we don't... like sex isn't a part of our relationship right now. And I think that would be understandable but it's not and that's my doing I feel because if I like even if Ivan (sp?) did nothing and I told him how angry I was about it that day. If I agreed to sex that night, I'm sure like that would be fine with him. But that hasn't been the case. And so it's almost like if I had been agreeing to it, this wouldn't have happened.

THERAPIST: So this is a history with your parents and what you've had to do to tell yourself everything was your fault.

CLIENT: But how can... like I guess I just feel so... I feel like I work really, really hard out of couples therapy to not be the critical complainer, to not be the person nagging and mommying and asking. And I got to the point where I'm not asking. [00:24:03] I'm like I'm totally silenced and Ivan (sp?) can do whatever the heck he wants. And that's exactly what felt like happened in this scenario. And so I never yelled at him. I never like... and it's not... it's how it feels for me. It's not I'm sure the way it really is but Dr. Farrow at no point during the session said like you can't... like, "Ivan (sp?), you need to be respectful." And I'm not like...

THERAPIST: She didn't?

CLIENT: No. She said... like she made it very clear that in the session we had about sex, that she was in no way advocating this and she wanted to be clear that nobody like misunderstood her. So I mean, she acknowledged that it was wrong like of course and she told me I was not overreacting. But it just feels like it's always like, "Ramona (sp?), don't criticize." And then it's not, "Ivan (sp?), you need to be honest with her." Like it just feels... I'm sure that's my perception but it just...

THERAPIST: I know I don't... I mean I'm trusting your perception. There may be a piece that you have that's transference. [00:25:03] But I'm sure you're picking up on something that's real, too. You... so do you feel like this session ended up being about you shouldn't criticize him doing this?

CLIENT: No, I told... Dr. Farrow asked how I felt and I said disrespected. And she said, "Well, it seems like it's really difficult for you to talk about it." And I said, "No. I can talk about it. I just don't know how because it's going to be critical and I'm going to be blamed and this is not going like..."

THERAPIST: You said that?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Good for you.

CLIENT: And she said, "Well, there have been some times when you criticized and it's not been appropriate. But this is appropriate." And I know that should've felt good, I guess. But it actually... I'm not proud but it felt crappy because I thought like I feel like the things that I'm... I'm not making up stuff. Like if he's not holding up his end in other ways but like how is this... like this is just different because it's just like a really extreme... the nature of it. The physical nature of it I think is what makes it so extreme. [00:25:59]

So it just... I don't know. So I was allowed to criticize and say that this was not OK. But she suggested several times that we not meet for a while. And I kept saying like, "I think this actually would warrant more attention." And she said, "Oh, so you don't want to meet?" I said, "No, this would warrant more... like I don't know what to do here."

So it actually felt like... because at one point I told her that the process of me not criticizing and then Ivan (sp?) being kind of left to his own or that being the result at home like me being quiet and Ivan (sp?) doing whatever wasn't working. That that process wasn't working. And she said, "Well, it's not being... if this isn't helpful, then maybe we shouldn't meet." And I just felt stuck because it felt like if I had kept my mouth shut and said, "This is great." That wouldn't have been the case. So I don't know what to do. (pause) It feels like if I criticize, I don't get what I want. If I keep my mouth shut, I don't get what I want. [00:27:01]

It's not working and I really don't know how to react to what he just did and yet again, I feel very isolated because I can't tell anyone. I know that's my own imposition. Like I know I'm doing that to myself. But I don't feel like I can tell anyone. (pause)

THERAPIST: Maybe that's a piece of what we want to take up in here too because the way you started to walk through what your greatest fear is, is other people's judgments. I think, Ramona (sp?), the person you're most afraid of judging you is you. (pause) I'd be hard pressed to imagine if all the people who come into mind who were at your wedding would be as judgmental as you are of yourself. You're incredibly, incredibly critical and judgmental of yourself. I think it would be hard to find someone who would be as judgmental of you as you are of yourself if I'm being really honest. [00:28:01]

Now that's also not to say there won't be people who think all sorts of different things about any one thing any one of us come to, right? People... there are people are going to think what they want to think about any part of you. You can't control what everybody is going to say. There could be people thinking, "Oh, she's staying together with him?" that kind of thing about being with him.

CLIENT: But no one would think that because they don't have a clue what's going on.

THERAPIST: But if they did, for example, they might judge you if you stayed as much as there'd be people who judged if you didn't stay.

CLIENT: I just can't like imagine. Like this incident alone I can't... like I can't... if I told people, like first of all, I don't think there would be any turning back. And I just... this is dumb. [00:29:02] But I don't want them to see him as that. I don't want to see him as that. I don't want him to be that. (pause) I feel like his parents wouldn't believe it. They would somehow still say, "Oh, she was so critical of him. He just never... he never had a chance. He was so down on himself because she was so demanding." And I just... I feel like a fool. I feel like a total fool and he's just taken advantage of me in so many ways.

THERAPIST: That's the only place that I would say something a little bit different about it. I don't think he is consciously, even unconsciously, trying to take advantage of you. I think this is the way Ivan (sp?) conducts himself in not just in the bedroom but everywhere right now there and in some ways his undoing then. [00:29:59]

If he has so many deficits about addressing something front and center with words, with relating, with facing his feelings, facing his shame, tolerating his guilt, talking it through, trying to make some movement, he finds quiet little secret avenues that stay underground. That's what he's done a lot. What I said to Emily about this visit, I in some ways think that this becomes... if there's... if I'm talking to you from a perspective of hoping for you guys that this could be something productive.

That moves the system a little bit, is that I've... by the way, I had e-mailed her before any of this happened also just to give her... just share a little bit about what you and I have been talking about. About your feeling cornered some in the couples work. I mean, I said it in a very light way but that you're wondering about what you should, how you should be addressing the things that Ivan (sp?) isn't getting done that you need to get done like laundry. If he doesn't do it and you're also not allowed to criticize or remind him or do it yourself, if what then, that that might be useful in the couples work to start to brainstorm around. [00:31:12] What kind of responsiveness allows you to be empowered and not enable him and not criticize him. What... how do you do that? So I had said all of that. This to me feels like it's bringing into the room something that is Ivan (sp?).

CLIENT: But what if that like... what if that's just part of who he is right now? What if that's going to be part of his behavior?

THERAPIST: So that's more what I mean is I think what if it's like it's a significant deficit such that he's trying to sneak things on the side to get what he wants. What if it's a kind of... I mean, William Bourd responded with an idea or a theory as we all know well back in the 50s talking about what if this is a kind of... he used the word sociopathic tendency. [0:32:07] And I mean that very, very... he didn't mean it in a rigid character logical way but kind of what if Ivan (sp?) gets things in secret or does things in secret in a way in order to get a need met? Because it's too scary or too shameful or too frightening or too much work to bring in above ground. And what if this is the thing that he sort of knew would get him labeled finally at last as being really, really bad, right?

In some ways, his badness has got to be brought into the room. It's time, right? The things he's actually screwing up and not doing well have to be brought into the room. And I'm glad if we're talking about what could allow some the hidden stuff that this brings it into the couples therapy now. It has to get addressed in this very loud example. But I think this is... it's not... this is not just an anomaly, right? This has been consistent with the whole of what you're talking about is inside him. [00:33:04]

I don't think he's taking advantage of you in a way that like he married you on purpose so you would take care of him. I don't think it's that thoughtful. But what if it is just that he has this many deficits? That he's not capable right now of addressing things on the surface in a way that you are or that the way you're wanting to at least work on with him? That's more what you're up again is, what if that's part of who he is and what if it takes five years to start to chip away at that? Are you willing to hang tight for five years or not?

CLIENT: That's... I told Ivan (sp?) like I wondered if this... it felt to me like a common thread in all of it. It was just a lot of disrespect and that this is not how you treat someone you love. Like maybe that's oversimplifying it but that's how it feels to me. And I said that gets at the foundation of things and I don't know if you can repair that. Like you marry someone and you don't respect them, I don't know if you can... and just change that. [00:34:07]

And it's just I have this other like sort of selfish thought but it's that if Ivan (sp?) is going to take five years to pull it together and... I don't know. I don't know how else you would summarize that. I don't want to spend the rest of my 20s taking care of him, putting up with his crap, being the one who supports him in secret, in private, because he's too whatever to tell everyone else. I just don't have any interest in doing it. I don't want to take care of him. I don't. Like I... maybe that's horribly selfish but I did not sign up for taking... like doing this amount of like really extreme heavy lifting in the marriage. I just did not. And I haven't... I certainly haven't asked it of him for me. [00:35:01] That sounds kind of not nice but...

THERAPIST: No, no.

CLIENT: ...I shouldn't...

THERAPIST: I think it's accurate. I think it's accurate.

CLIENT: ...spend... Ivan (sp?) and I started dating I guess before I was... before I turned 21. I don't want to spend all of my 20s with this person who can do something like that and still hasn't really apologized. Still hasn't shown... still hasn't. Not a tear, not any remorse, not any like...

THERAPIST: What did he say about this in the session? What did he say to you about it, about his behavior?

CLIENT: He introduced it to Dr. Farrow and I, at the time, rolled my eyes because I thought the word was inappropriate but it's not. He just said, "Last night I molested Ramona (sp?)." That's how he put it.

THERAPIST: So he is interested in being labeled bad. I mean, that's...

CLIENT: I asked him. [00:36:01] I said... I mentioned that like when the thing happened with his loans, like he didn't open his mail for like, what was it, six months whatever and I ended up paying a huge amount of his interest with my loans. And you had said like, this is really extreme. Do you think he's just trying to like get you to leave?" I raised that thought with him. I said, "This is really extreme. Are you just trying to end the relationship?" Why would I do that? I don't...

THERAPIST: Yea. I mean, I'm... right now it doesn't feel like he wants you to leave but that may not be his conscious intention. But there's something about... it feels like he wants to be spanked or something. Like he's coming up and saying, "I've done wrong. I did this really bad deed. I need my punishment." In some ways is though the thing gets created in order to get punished. Do you know what I mean? [00:37:00] I know it sounds kind of crazy but...

CLIENT: But why? What would be the purpose of create... like Ivan (sp?) is not a... like I don't mean this in a crazy way but he's not the perfect husband. So why would he need to create something so like be portrayed as less than a perfect husband?

THERAPIST: That's kind of how he operates, right? He does these things that then get him in trouble. And in some ways I remember when like the first and only session I had this image of him as having we talked about this like the idea of self-chastising and repentance and self-punishment, really physical self-punishment for one's sins. And in some ways that kind of... you could become invested in the punishment like that it's comfortable to get punished over a time. Do you know what I mean? So you screw up in order to get punished.

CLIENT: So it's...

THERAPIST: Because that's where he lives, that's where he feels most comfortable. It would be changing his ways to start to say, "OK, I'm going to bring it above ground. I'm going to try to do my best and we'll talk about it." [00:38:04] He doesn't not know to do that very well. That's all new territory for him. What he knows is how to be repentant and self-punishing and extremely self-critical. I mean, you know something about that, right, to be so hard on yourself that there... like no one else can do wrong. It just it sounds like he's sort of gravitated loudly to this place where he gets to get punished again.

CLIENT: But he... but that's the...

THERAPIST: But he doesn't really. And that's... I totally hear you. This is what ends up feeling stuck in the couples work is that, well, but now if you're critical you're just feeding him being so hard on himself. If feels kind of crazy making.

CLIENT: It does.

THERAPIST: How do you have real anger at him?

CLIENT: But the other part like if he's really this self-critical person who's so like stuck in repentance and punishing himself, why isn't he the accountable person? Because that's the crazy... like that's been the most frustrating thing. I always feel like... I always have the picture of a mother with a small child...

THERAPIST: True. (inaudible at 00:39:07).

CLIENT: ...that says, "Now, what do you say? You say thank you. Oh, do you need to say sorry to your friend? Like do you want to say please? What's the magic word?"

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I have this vision of me with him all the time. Because when the laundry is piled high, it's not Ivan (sp?) saying, "Wow, I really... I'm so behind. I'm going to throw in a load." That's never what happens, never, never, never. So I do not see him as this self-critical punishing... like I don't get it. And if I say it, it's like whoa. Like you're so...

THERAPIST: In some ways...

CLIENT: I don't get it.

THERAPIST: ...what's secret under him is the aggression behind it. It's aggressive to not do the laundry and wait until you boil over, right? Or it's what he did to you was aggressive, Ramona (sp?).

CLIENT: I don't understand it, though. He said like, "I just... I have urges and I didn't control them." And I hate myself because I really am saying like, "But so then why didn't you just have an affair? Or why didn't you just like tell me you wanted to be done so that you can have this type of relationship with someone else?"

THERAPIST: Why do you hate yourself for that?

CLIENT: Because that's a really...

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:40:06).

CLIENT: ...nasty thing to say to your spouse.

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Why don't you have... like, why wouldn't you just have an affair? Why wouldn't you just see someone?

THERAPIST: See, I think that's a legitimate question you're asking him. You're saying to him, "I don't get it, Ivan (sp?). If that's what you want, let's talk about it and arrange things so that you go do that. This is... you're sneaking something that I said no to and violating your own wife's body. I don't get it. What is happening with you?" I think those are really important questions you're asking him.

Yes, they're coming out. There may be something that's... you're also pissed. But you're not the first or last person who would not... would be very, very, very angry in that situation. He violated your body. To me, I think you sound unclear about what you want to keep doing or not doing with him. But to be very clear that he cannot do that to your body again. That's not acceptable conduct in a marriage. (pause) That is the sort of starting guidepost. [00:41:09]

Now what you want to do, how you're going to... can you work this through? I don't know. That's the question. It becomes another thing like graduate school that you're going to have feelings about. Now it's in the present.

CLIENT: That's the thing. I told him I don't know how to like deal with that stuff and move on and get over it and make progress when this type of thing keeps happening. And that's the other... I don't see Ivan (sp?) as this self-critical, self-punishing, self... like clearly, he doesn't like himself, clearly. But this isn't the first time he did it. And it's not like after the first time he had an attack of conscious and said, "Ramona (sp?), I have a really difficult conversation to have with you. We need to..." It never happens. I don't think it would've. Like the second time, I don't think it would've happened. He pretended to be asleep for Pete's sake. He had no intention of coming clean. Being caught in the act like it's just... I really don't know how to react. [00:42:03] I really don't know how to respond. I don't know.

THERAPIST: That's how you're reacting and that's important. You're disgusted by him. You're starting to know in yourself which I think has hardened the fact is you haven't even brought this to me that it's happened before.

CLIENT: I didn't know.

THERAPIST: Because it's so hard to talk about.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Oh, you didn't know.

CLIENT: No, that's my point. I really am a deep sleeper. I really did sleep through it and I really am very clear that there were several nights where I woke up and felt like his hand was somewhere. And I wasn't sure what was going on and I was like back to sleep pretty quickly. And I remember thinking about it and wondering like what was going on exactly but I never accused him because I didn't actually... you don't just throw out an accusation like that. (pause)

THERAPIST: Your experience of this, your feelings of this, are really important to me. [00:43:03] And they're really important to me to help you either with the things I can say to Dr. Farrow or the things we talk about that you can go say to try to bring into that work if you want to continue that work. It sounds like you do. It is... it would be a little crazy of you not to be really furious right now on what to do. I'd be more concerned if you weren't very angry. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: But I haven't yelled at him. I haven't like told him he needs to go stay somewhere else. Like I've said, like the harshest thing I've done is say like go visit your parents right now. I feel like I can't even get that at home. Like I can't even get that worked up about it. He won't talk to me. He won't look at me. I said, "Why do you get to not talk to me?"

THERAPIST: I think what you've done seems reasonable saying... Ramona (sp?), even just letting... giving yourself some time to take in what this means for you. You don't have to have the answer today. [00:44:01] You do need to have space to feel safe enough to process what's happening inside yourself and saying sleep on the couch for a while because I'm really upset and you don't feel safe you're telling me. You're not sure you feel safe at night even. Can you trust he won't do this again? Has he truly apologized and said, "I promise I won't ever do it again? I'm so..."

CLIENT: No, he never did.

THERAPIST: He didn't say that?

CLIENT: No. (pause)

THERAPIST: Yea, that's not acceptable level of response. It's just not acceptable. I mean, I'm feeling protective of you at this point that this is a kind of thing. It's a very concrete example. But he's not saying to you the things you need to hear in order to feel safe again.

CLIENT: But I told him that. I'm like, "Why aren't you apologizing? Where is the remorse? Where is the... like you haven't said, 'I'm sorry.'" He doesn't...

THERAPIST: What does he say?

CLIENT: He... the... I tried to say to him last night. I said like, "This is not..." And he said, "I don't know how." And he closed the door and walked away. [00:45:03] He just like... I don't know if it's the shame, the like... I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yea, but you also reach a point of, Ramona (sp?)... I mean he's got to get over it. None of us get to get away with being so ashamed that we never say sorry to anyone. Do you know what I mean? That's not acceptable adult behavior. Or do you saying, "I hate myself so much for being attracted to you." That has nothing to do with it.

CLIENT: I am so furious that he said that. I told him that that was like the most like disgusting... that's not an apology. It's not a...

THERAPIST: Has nothing to do with it.

CLIENT: It's like a self-pitying like...

THERAPIST: It's being coward. It's being a coward. (pause)

CLIENT: I don't...

THERAPIST: Making everyone feel sorry for him.

CLIENT: I don't know what to do. I really don't know what to do.

THERAPIST: I'm glad you're coming here Friday. Friday doesn't even feel like it's soon enough right now.

CLIENT: We're supposed to see Dr. Farrow on Wednesday and Thursday. [00:46:01]

THERAPIST: The way you're talking to me right now Ramona (sp?) about your anger, I have to say to you it also feels very different than when I first met you and you would sound critical. I actually think right now you have room to be even more critical even with me. Like I know you're not even in the room with Dr. Farrow and Ivan (sp?). You don't... I hear you when you let it come in. You express that you're furious but you're doing it with words in a clear kind of way that doesn't feel like... it just feels different than the kind of vengeful pressured criticism that was driven by your self-hatred. Do you know what I mean? This feels like it's a kind of anger that he needs to hear. It's not the self-hatred driven criticism that he's never going to take in. He may not take this in either. But this feels different to me. This doesn't feel like just constantly being critical. [00:47:01]

This is something really, really important that happened that is not OK and I want to be 100% clear with you that his behavior is not OK. (pause) And you need to be first and foremost safe in a relationship. This is now about trust into the level of physicality. The fact that he hasn't apologized, I mean, a lot has to happen in order for this to even remotely start to drift into a realm that you work with it.

And I think that's part of what you want to go in and do is say there are certain things here just are not feeling safe. They're feeling triply, quadruply now unsafe. You haven't apologized yet. I've given you every opportunity. And just having your experience and having that be real regardless of what Dr. Farrow thinks or not even thinks. When you embody having confidence, from a confident place, feeling critical as opposed to feeling self-critical because you're so hard on your own self. [00:48:04] That's a very different kind of anger.

So I really hope... I don't even think the couples work can continue unless there's a way for your being angry about this to be brought into the room and known by both of them. I've said as much. Just so you know you have my back to that end with Dr. Farrow, she knows that I said that I'm in strong support of your allowing this voice even before this happened. Maybe this is what allows it finally to come forward in a real way. But we'll also take it one day at a time right now. We'll keep talking and figuring out what your experience is and what you want to do with all of this.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: All right. I'll see you Friday. If you want to touch base before then, call me.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: I'm around. [00:49:04]

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