TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: So I take in (inaudible) from Dr. Farrow (ph) also. She just, she sometimes sends a summary of the session, just bullet points. (client affirms) She sent them. She always sends (inaudible). Sounds like it's a rough... very rough place you guys are in (client affirms), (inaudible) of saying more than "Where are you, how are you?"

CLIENT: Um... (sighs) It's been a really bad week. This has been a really, really crappy week.

THERAPIST: Your mom, too...?

CLIENT: I mean, that's this like, it's the same, but her response has shifted lately, which I understand she's scared. I completely underst like, of course, anyone would be terrified. It's just difficult, maybe especially in the midst of everything that's going on with me that she... that I don't want her to know about. I feel like she's got enough on her plate. It's just hard to hear things like... "I think your dad is... planning how to get my stuff out of the house." Like, it's just... I can't... [00:01:19]

I mean, I feel proud, I guess, a little bit, because in the past, I would have gotten like, explosively upset and said like, "How can you say that?" Like, "Don't drag me into it," or like, "Of course, you're not going to die." Like, I would have really gotten really... And I did get very upset, but not to her. So, I felt good about that in a way. Like, I... (sighs) didn't allow myself to be provoked by that or the like... I asked if I could be awake, which she like... (chuckles) It's not a real question.

Or the, "Well, I guess, ah, he said I can't drive myself home the next day." She knew she couldn't like... She knew that we were planning to come home, she know that like, my dad wouldn't have let... Like, she knew that. It's more like a... (sighs) So I'm trying not to respond to those types of things, not letting it get me upset, at least not on the phone.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. And also, maybe knowing that it hasn't gone anywhere that helps the situation. (client affirms) Right? It's not like... anger that gets communicated or frustration or upset or hurt that then improves the situation. [00:02:31]

CLIENT: Right, because...

THERAPIST: In some ways, it just gets worse.

CLIENT: No, I mean, these comments aren't isolated to... to this situation. Like, this has been a long running...

THERAPIST: It's global!

CLIENT: Yeah! So... you know, clearly in the past, my saying like, "Don't put me in the middle," or "I really wish you wouldn't make those comments," or upset, like it hasn't...

THERAPIST: It's happened!

CLIENT: And now is certainly not the time to like... so... But I feel good, because I'm able to... I don't want to say, "Put that on her," because clearly she's, you know, struggling. But I'm able to say like, "She's making those comments; I'm not responsible for them." (therapist affirms) Like, no one is actually saying, "Why can't you stay awake for the surgery?" Or "Why can't you drive your ," like, no one is saying that to her. So I'm not going to validate it by... So, it's horrible, because I really want... Like, it's hard to find an appropriate way like, to be really supportive or like, to really go into a conversation with her, when it's filled with those types of comments. (sighs) (therapist affirms) It is what it is, I guess. [00:03:33]

THERAPIST: But I think it's so really important about what you're saying and what you're doing a little differently. It's so funny, because in a strange way, saying to her, "Please don't put me in the middle; I'm getting really upset about it," is in some ways, given who she is, still playing out the part of being in the middle. Do you know what I mean? (client affirms) And to sort of let what you're doing was just so sad. This isn't like, I'm not saying this is easy or like, "Oh, how great this is!" It's horrible, you know like, you have to do this. But it's kind of letting some of what she's saying now go in one ear and out the other. It's just, if this is how she is in the world like, in some ways, to not even have to step into fix her, to get through to her means relinquishing some of the feeling of responsibility you had. [00:04:27]

CLIENT: It's just hard, because in like, on a more global scale, I feel like those comments are made... I don't know if it's always conscious, but to like, get the reaction...

THERAPIST: (emphatically) Sure they are!

CLIENT: ...of like (chuckles)...

THERAPIST: Sure!

CLIENT: "You're right! My dad like, he's never home. Oh, he's such like..." I know that! (chuckles) I know that! Like, it's, and I feel like it is. By not giving her that reaction, the comments might continue, but it... And I might hang up the phone and burst into tears, like I did. But it's much better than going through like, trying to confront her and her like, hanging up on me, and not talking to me for days or something like, that's been it. So, it's really hard. I decided like, I'm not even going to tell my sister that that's going on with her. Like, she's probably, now, chances are good that she's making those comments to her, too. It's just... It's not a...

THERAPIST: (whispers) It's really sad! [00:05:24]

CLIENT: It's hard to, it's just hard to react like, it's hard to know how to... I just kept telling her like, "I'm sure it will go well, he's very like..." She was telling me how many years her surgeon's been doing this, and he does this procedure, I guess like, twice a week. Like, he's very... just trying to remind her of that and that (sighs)... It's just hard. (pause) It feels unfair that she uses it as a way to like, bring in the conflict between her and my dad. (sighs) It's just... I'm, I guess, feeling a little anxiety about going home, but... It's kind of been actually the least of what's been on my immediate plate, as horrible as that sounds.

THERAPIST: Right. So the more immediate plate. (pause) Tell me, I'm curious just to hear from your words like, more about what happened. [00:06:23]

CLIENT: (sighs) I've been... thinking about... Dr. Farrow had said like, she didn't feel that either of us, when Ivan (sp) said, "Oh, she should just go. She should just like, she doesn't have to suffer any more like..." (therapist affirms) I've been thinking about how she, I felt relieved when she said neither of us would be in a place to make a decision. But I've actually had some thoughts about... playing it out in my head, if I do, about what it would like to end a marriage, what it would look like to try to stay in it. I feel horrible, and I wouldn't say this... not, well, no one else knows anyway. But (chuckles), I had some... slightly positive thoughts about ending the marriage, which is not to say that that's what I want to do, but thoughts of... It wouldn't be the end of the world. And...

So, I had a couple of those, and I had a couple of, "It wouldn't be the end of the world if I tried to work on this." But, I will say, in a critical tone, that I have felt this week like Ivan's nowhere near in a place to work on it. We had our couples session on Wednesday and I was pretty upset. At the end of the session, he was talking about how he doesn't want to be forgiven, it was absurd to be forgiven like, the whole thing. I'm like... (sighs) It's really frustrating. And Dr. Farrow said like, that's different from saying you want to work on the marriage like, by saying... so it's like, that's different. (therapist affirms) So, by the time he, in the car ride, from him, you know, from us leaving there to him dropping me off at the hospital for my volunteer stuff, I ended up comforting him, finding out if he was okay, feeling very concerned about leaving him alone, sitting with him in the parking lot during what might have been some time to get some food like... [00:08:19]

THERAPIST: This was after your second session?

CLIENT: No, after the first one. (therapist affirms) And urging him to call Dr. Farrow, because I couldn't tell if he was okay or not. I've like, had these feelings lately like, he's not okay to be left alone (sighs), asking him to text me every like, couple of hours if he could, just so that I could see, at the end of my shift that, you know, things have been okay. And it's just... (sighs)

THERAPIST: (inaudible) Mad with him, furious with him, but also worried about him.

CLIENT: But there is... So we had plans that night to... a friend that I've actually been dog sitting for, he said, "Why don't' you guys come over. We can get a pizza, I can invite a couple of other of our friends." These are my friends from school, and... So we were going to do that, and then I said, "Oh, well, you know, I'll tell Kevin you're not up to it and we can, you know, maybe another time." So I cancelled that plan.

My sister had called me. She doesn't know what's going on, because I still can't tell anyone (but that's my choice; I understand that's a matter of truth). She's just been concerned and she said, "Why don't we like, you know, go get a sandwich or something. Sounds like you could use some time out of the apartment if things aren't going well and if he's difficult in some way." So we tried that and like, we actually couldn't find a place, so we ended up coming back to the apartment. [00:09:39]

I had asked Ivan, I mean, if that was okay, if I, you know, was out of the apartment for a while longer than I had plans to be, if he was fine. He said, "Yes, but just to let him know when I was coming home." So I texted him when I was coming home. We come home, and Ivan's like, "What are you doing? Is Emma with you?" He's like, for whatever reason, is sitting in boxers and undershirt in the chair, watching TV, eating some kind of snack, which is not...

This has never happened before! I'm not sure why he was snacking in his underwear. He said later that he was just really warm. I don't know why he didn't just change out of long pants and long sleeves into... (chuckles) It's not, that's not the issue! So he like, got dressed quickly and went and hid on our patio. Emma felt like it was, you know, not a comfortable thing. So I said, you know, "Why don't you just go? Like, that's fine. I will... I'm sorry like..." So, second plan of dinner got changed. [00:10:35]

THERAPIST: So he went and hid, because like, he was just in his...

CLIENT: He was embarrassed.

THERAPIST: Embarrassed because of being in his underwear or...?

CLIENT: I mean, she didn't see him. She didn't like, nothing... I just, you know, opened, started to open the door and... (therapist affirms) there he is! So, I said, you know, "It's not a big deal, like... no one... like, it's not a huge deal."

THERAPIST: It doesn't have to be, I mean...It's not the same as...

CLIENT: I mean, it could be a little embarrassing, but it's not a reason to like... (therapist affirms) He's in his own apartment, you know like (chuckles)...

THERAPIST: That's what I'm trying to understand. Was he, did you get the sense it was because of that, or because he was just not in the mood, he was not in a place anyway to be seeing anyone.

CLIENT: So that's what became problematic for me, because then, after she went home, I spent some time in the bedroom. I cried for a while, because just everything is just, for whatever reason this week, I am just really, really low and just... The phrase I'm thinking, it's just overwhelmingly sad, just overwhelmingly, just... like, I can't do it anymore.

THERAPIST: Tell me about the sadness you feel. What's the feeling? [00:11:32]

CLIENT: It's just... crying, it's just feeling really... really sad. It's feeling like, I don't have a job, it's feeling like, my husband molests me and I end up sympa like, being sympathetic with him and taking care of him. It's my mom has cancer and I don't know what to do, because we can't have a conversation about it without it being about how mad she is at my dad. I can't deal with that right now. It's I can't tell my sister it's going, like... the closest person I have. Like, I can't tell her what's going on, because it like, she would be so heart-broken and it's just...

I can't even like, get out and see my friends, because like, he can't handle like... It's just... It feels like everything, it feels like when it rains, it pours. It just feels like right now, I'm just not... it's not... It's, I'm so overwhelmed. In the evenings I'm not motivated to cook dinner, so I've just not been eating dinner. I really don't feel well every single evening, and then I'm not applying to jobs in the evening, because I really feel awful, both emotionally and physically. (therapist affirms) I know like, that's my choice, I guess, but it's just... It doesn't feel like one, right now. It feels overwhelming and... [00:12:40]

THERAPIST: Do you cry by yourself?

CLIENT: Of course!

THERAPIST: Real tears?

CLIENT: Yes! Very, very real, very... yes! A lot, a lot of tears.

THERAPIST: You don't here. (client affirms) I wonder why?

CLIENT: I guess that doesn't feel productive. It doesn't feel... At home it, I'm not sure if it's productive, but it feels, not therapeutic, but like, at least I get a little bit of an out, even if in private. Like, I'm able to like... let it out as opposed to just, you know, sitting quietly, watching something or like, trying not to... I don't know.

THERAPIST: I wonder, I have to wonder, and I know I'm interjecting this in the middle of the story, if we could pause for a second. Actually having one's feelings in front of another person, just having them, I think is another, it's a deeper step into trusting. It can seem, safety, not feeling safe, you know, but I wonder, Ramona (sp) if... [00:13:45]

You often come here and like, you have it all together, in a way, you know what I mean? You're, there is a productive conversation, and there are the bullet points, and there is the story, and there is what are we going to do with this, and... But, I mean, there is so much going on for you right now. I feel heart-broken for you. I feel so sad. I feel it. Like, it almost brings tears to my eyes, from where you are right now. Just recognizing how much you're still like, even here, in your therapy, dealing with it alone, in a way.

CLIENT: But it feels... I know like, this is my own... It feels like the only option at home like... Ivan didn't ever notice that I went in the bedroom and cried for a half hour.

THERAPIST: Really? [00:14:36]

CLIENT: He didn't ever notice that, you know, my mascara is like... He didn't ever like, he never noticed. In fact, while I was crying, I heard this thudding on the patio. Ivan had retreated back to the patio and (sighs) and I said, you know, "What's going on?" He made a motion that he was knocking against the table. We have a tiny table out there, and he was knocking against it with his fist. I said, "Why are you doing that? Okay, you need to come inside. Like, I don't know what's going on here."

(sighs) He comes inside, he has this really long face, he's moping, he's mumbling, he's looking at the floor, he's his typical... I mean, that's critical, but like, this is the mode he goes into. He's like, "Oh, I've lied to you again. I was hitting myself in the head with my fist. I was doing the..." I'm like, "Why are you doing this? Like, what is going...?" Like, after, he just got off the phone with Dr. Farrow and said, "No, I don't' want to hurt myself." [00:15:28]

He was annoyed because her questions were the routine, "Do you want to hurt yourself or others?" He felt like... I don't' know... insulted by that or like, it was too basic or... I don't know! Too rote for him. He said, "Well, I just, I feel so horrible, I'm such a horrible person. Here I am, when you came home, I'm wasting electricity, I have the air on and I'm just sitting here, you know, eating and watching TV, and I should be taking care of something in the apartment, I should..."

I said, "Have I ever criticized you for eating something at dinnertime? Like, have I ever said, 'There is something wrong with that' or that 'You can't have the air on when it's 80-some degrees outside?' Like, has anyone ever in your life ever told you that you're a horrible person for that?" So, he kept making these comments and I kept saying like, "No, like, no one's ever... Like, nobody thought there was anything wrong with like... It's not even a horrib-like, it's a little odd, it's not like, horrible to be sitting in your, you know, under... under everything! (chuckles) Having a snack like, in front of the TV; like, that's not... anything terrible. [00:16:32]

I just found it, I felt like he was making the comments to illicit the sympathy and hear how he's not a horrible person. I asked about the call with Dr. Farrow. I asked about when Dr. Bourd (ph) was getting back. Then he was the doing okay, and then for whatever reason, out of the blue comes... "My sister wanted to know when we're visiting."

I said, "Wait a minute! (chuckles) Wait a minute!" I'm like, "Do you even...?" I'm like, "I... This is too much." I know this is... probably wrong, but I felt like he was manipulating me. I felt like... he kind of ruined (chuckles) both of my dinners, because I had some dinner plans. I never got any dinner, I felt like I came home and took care of him. I felt like I was really upset from all the stuff going on like, that he did, that's going on with like in general.

He doesn't even notice. I felt like he was throwing himself a very large pity party, because he had the air conditioning... like, it was just like, just wallowing overwhelmingly like, just... I just felt like, here I am, taking care of him and being sympathetic to him by making sure that he's safe, by making sure that he's taken care of. Then, out of the blue, conveniently, it's like, "So when, what about visiting my family?" [00:17:52]

I said, "No!" Like, "No! (chuckles) Do you have any understanding what's been going on? Like, that you molested me, that I have been, you know... We haven't really made any progress with that. You haven't been really working toward like, haven't been very apologetic, haven't been responding to it. I'm dealing with this thing with my mom, you don't even ask about it at all. (chuckles) I'm dealing with, you know, trying to get a job and doing interviews.

I had an interview yesterday over the phone. They wanted to start with a phone interview and he like, he totally forgot about it, never even asked. Just like... totally... I know that's horr , like, I feel like a jerk for saying it, but it's like, "The Ivan Show." It's like, a lot of self-pity and self-loathing and it is exhausting to hear that from someone who did something pretty horrible to you and you're... Emma said...

THERAPIST: Yeah, go ahead. [00:18:45]

CLIENT: No. She... she doesn't know what's going on, but she said she felt that I was robbed of being able to respond in a healthy way of being upset, of being hurt, of being angry, of... I, that I was completely robbed of having those feelings every time, because Ivan responds in this really intensely self-pitying, like self-loathing, self like... and there is no space. So Ivan gets taken care of, ironically, and then, by the time that washes over like, it's been a while since it happened, and it never... it never re-surfaces. I never...

THERAPIST: Yeah. It's... In there, there is actually a paper I love called the "Grandiosity of Self-Loathing." It describes this in a way that, it's a kind of, he hates himself in narcissistic ways. In other words, it's all about Ivan! It can't even be that he's apologetic and recognizing of what he's doing to you. It's... beating you to the punch, and it becomes all about his self-hatred again: how bad he is, whipping himself. But it's still... ironically, all about him. It can look like it's being about you, but it's not. You're not given any space to say, "This hurt me. I'm so mad at you." [00:20:11]

CLIENT: It feels like, in the wake of what he did, it's been... There has never been like this, I mean, he said, "I'm sorry," and that was his apology. And it's like, where is, where is the remorse? Where is the like, "Please forgive me. Let's talk about this. I like..." There is just no effort. It's really been, "I'm a horrible person, you don't have to suffer anymore. The marriage shouldn't continue."

I said, "Why are, like, you put all this energy, all this energy into things like, 'I'm a horrible person for having the air conditioning on,' instead of any energy into 'What I did was like, that actually was horrible. And I really want to make amends and work on it and...'" It's just like... it's bizarre. On the other hand, he's done the laundry like every day this week, and that's been like a form of, like self-punishment or self-I don't know, but that's been... And I haven't said a word, so it's been... It's just... [00:21:10]

THERAPIST: (pause) It's an incredibly sadomasochistic relationship.

CLIENT: I don't' know what that fully means.

THERAPIST: Um... it's like, the two of you are tied together by mas ... do you know what masochism is?

CLIENT: It's when you enjoy hurting yourself?

THERAPIST: Right. There is a kind of repetition and some kind of unconscious pleasure in the being punished. Do you know what I mean? You're, I think you're both used to being punished in ways, in varieties of ways, that sort of never getting your needs met. There is also this hidden sadism. It's even more hidden in him. The sadism is the opposite like, the hurting of the other person, right? One is the hurting of self, the other is hurting of the other person.

CLIENT: You enjoy hurting someone else? [00:22:11]

THERAPIST: In a way, as a kind of... It's a defense system. Like, it's a mastering of the way one was hurt as a child, right? So, what he's doing with you, in my mind, in my experience of it, is actually quite aggressive, even though it doesn't look that way.

CLIENT: It doesn't look aggressive at all.

THERAPIST: Right. You can look, it can look like, "Oh, Ivan is so ashamed. He's being so self-critical." And yet, the effect on it, on you, is that it's taking up all the space and takes away from your actually having room to be a person. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: It feels that way, but it often... I don't' know. My sister is clearly not unbiased, but she has said, it looks and sounds pretty manipulative sometimes. I know that's a word I'm not supposed to use, but it feels a lot of times like, he says and does things like that to get the sympathy, to get the, "Of course, you're not a horrible person, Ivan." Like, "Are you okay? Can I take care of you? Are you calling Dr. Farrow? Are you...? Like, when is your next appoint ..." (therapist affirms) I know that I'm doing that like, no one is forcing me to do that. But... [00:23:23]

THERAPIST: That's your masochistic role, that you get pulled into, you know what I mean?

CLIENT: But what kind of... (chuckles) What kind of jerk would sit there like, while they're spouse, I mean...

THERAPIST: If it means extreme (ph), there is nothing different many people would do, Ramona. I mean, you're dealing with some things that are very extreme right now, that at less extreme moments might be something as subtle as "Ivan, I don't buy it. I'm not going to feel sorry for you right now. You hurt me. When you're ready to have a conversation, take ownership of that, I'd love to talk to you," you know? It doesn't even have to get angry, right? (client affirms) Again, if he's saying, "I'm going to kill myself," that's a different thing. Like, you obviously (blocked) (inaudible)

CLIENT: He's not. Like, he's saying, "Oh, I don't want to hurt..." Like, "I'm fine, I don't want to..." He was upset with Dr. Farrow for intimating that he could hurt anyone else. But, you know, then he sat on the patio, hitting himself in the head. Like, I don't get this behavior. I don't understand it. I think he should be angry with himself for what he did, but I don't understand the whole drama of... (sighs) "Oh, I'm just such a terrible person! I have the air on and I'm eating at dinnertime!" I'm like, I really wanted to be like, "Really?!" I caught myself buying into it and saying like, "I've never been upset with you for that, I don't..." Like, apologizing! (chuckles) [00:24:37]

I got... and then when it shifted to like, they want to know when we're coming for a visit, that's when I said, like, "Have you been paying attention? Like, do you even begin to understand what's been going on? Like, I have a lot on my plate and a lot of it is what, you know, what you did." Yesterday, he said, like, he has been selfish and, you know, wallowing in a lot of self-pity and he's like, "I know a lot of what you're going through isn't related to me." I said, "Actually (chuckles), no, that is most of it right now, for me. Like, of course I'm upset about like, the other things, but, this is huge."

THERAPIST: What if... Dr. Farrow mentioned, we talked a little bit about this, too. What if it isn't that Ivan is consciously being manipulative or even, for example, the things just that came up when she said she was trying to use some space and make a lot of room for your experience, which you were saying that he was, you were taking all this as him wanting to end the marriage. [00:25:38]

CLIENT: Which he said to me, I was, you know, it's not appropriate for a spouse to psychoanalyze another spouse and that she was setting clear bound ... and I understand.

THERAPIST: Did she say it like that? (client affirms) Not appropriate?

CLIENT: I don't know if "appropriate" was the word she used, but she said, yeah, she was setting a clear, a firm boundary, and that you can't, like, one spouse can't psychoanalyze another. And I said, "But this is something that came up with Dr. Henderson (ph), a concern and I felt like couples therapy would be the place to raise that, since it's about the coupleship." So, no, that did not go...

She essentially then said, "Well, Ivan, are you trying to end the relationship?"

To which he said, "No."

When I said like, "Ivan says a lot of like, when he's throwing a pity party about something like the air being on, I feel like that ends up being... (sighs) like, it elicits a certain response."

Ivan said, "I'm not being manipulative."

Well, she's like, "There we go! We've clarified it!" [00:26:33]

I'm like, "I'm sorry. I know this is, like inappropriate, I know this is inappropriate of me to say, but I don't think asking someone if they're trying to end the marriage, if they're not aware of... (therapist affirms) is productive. Nor do I think, if they are throwing a pity party like, to get a certain response, if asking them if that's why they're doing it is going to get like..."

THERAPIST: Especially if it's unconscious.

CLIENT: (sighs) "Are you, were you manipulat ? Oh, you weren't. Well, we've cleared it up!" Like, it just doesn't feel... (therapist affirms) I feel like I'm transferring my anger towards him at her, but I'm just like... Ivan does not have a history of being able to... kind of be honest about what's going with himself, even to himself. Like...

THERAPIST: Yeah, (inaudible). I totally agree with you. I don't know like... (pause) She may be coming at it from the angle of wanting to just speak to your feelings, which is very common like, in couples therapy. The therapist might say, "Let's..." This, the healthiest thing that couples can do when they're talking to each other is not to say "You" statements, it's not to say "I think this going on with you," to say "This is what is going on with me, this is what my feelings are about it, using "I" statements, you know. I'm sure you've worked on this (client affirms) and talked about this. That may be sort of what she was trying to encourage. [00:28:00]

I totally agree with you, though. It's not a face value question, where you get to ask somebody, "Are you doing this or not?" And their answer is the answer, right? For any of us! We all have things going on unconsciously, that we're not aware of. But what if, for example, what if even in that, what if he's not trying to end the marriage? Like, what if that isn't even his unconscious focus? What if he's tied to you, and he would be terrified without you! This is like, this, he's just in this groove of, this is what plays out for him in relationships. Like, I wonder if, maybe there is a way, and when you're saying that to him, there is a little projection going on. Do you know the word, you know the word projection? Like to project your feelings onto another person. You were having the fantasy of ending the marriage.

CLIENT: Right. But I don't feel like I've done anything to try to end it. I feel like I've actually put a ton of work in to try to make it work.

THERAPIST: Absolutely. I'm not saying doing anything. I don't mean you're enacting or your acting out in a way to end the marriage. You may have just been thinking, "This makes me have a fantasy of wanting to end this. I've been working hard at it, but like, I have to draw a line somewhere. This..." [00:29:13]

CLIENT: That's that...

THERAPIST: Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Yeah, so that's the problem. And I wonder... so, not to change, I'm not changing gears, but...

THERAPIST: Go for it, I'm following you!

CLIENT: That data, do you remember that data coordinator job like, one of the first ones that I interviewed for? I thought it was going to be great. Turned out to be data entry, and you, Farrow like, after I told you I wasn't so great or whatever, that I wasn't as interested, you said, you were worried that I would just take it, because I didn't know my value or worth. I'm not sure which of those words you used, but...

I have this secret thought, "What if that's me with Ivan? (therapist affirms) What if Ivan is the data entry?" And I know that's like... (chuckles) that's like a monstrous thing to, but it felt like a parallel to me. (therapist affirms) What if, what if, after a year of working with you or what like, I don't know, what if I developed a lot of self-esteem or self-respect or like, I found my worth, even if, you know like, hopefully I have a job, but found it outside of measures like that. What if I found myself saying, "That's what I needed to find, and now this relationship can be over, because I'm not... because I have more respect, more self-respect to say like, "No, I'm not going to put up with being treated like that. I'm out the door." [00:30:29]

It occurred to me also, because I felt very firm in, if Ivan and I were, even if we were living together and dating, if we were anything not married (chuckles), I'd say, "I'm done. See you later, like...," (chuckles) at least a very long-term break. I know the point of being married is that there is no like, every time you have a fight, it's not, "Well we could just break up, you know like..." It is to keep putting in effort, when things don't go smoothly. (sighs) I don't want to be that person who, in two years, it wasn't, you know, perfect and gave up, and quit. But I wonder where the line should be.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I think it's really moving, Ramona, that you could start to imagine, even to have the fantasy of "What if I felt better about myself? What if I started to believe that I was worth something and I don't want to be treated like this anymore, I don't want to be insulted (inaudible)?" [00:31:31]

CLIENT: So, that's the... that's the thing, though, is what I keep trying to... I don't know if minimize is the right word, or normalize, but I try to diminish what he did, in a way. I feel like it's already being diminished to some extent, because as I said, like I don't, I don't feel like there is, there is no space at home, certainly, and there is very little in couples therapy for me to be like... "What's going on, why did you do this, like, we're going to talk about it and I'm going to be angry and you're like... I'm waiting for you to apologize and work like it..." There is no space for that. (therapist affirms) But, where (sighs)... like, how do I know if it... You said that if we were in like, a really healthy place or like, that something like that might have been like, framed very differently and might not have been actually what this was. I wonder how big is that difference? [00:32:24]

THERAPIST: Huge! Absolutely huge! This is black and white. I mean, we're not often about black in white, but this is very black and white. In other words, you guys are here, and the possibility of that being a healthy, sexy thing is over here (client affirms) on the spectrum, right? It could be that that's kind of like, that happens for you. If you're in a loving relationship and your husband comes on to you or you come on to your husband in the middle of the night. You're both into it and it's this loving thing that's mutual, and it's happening when you had a good relationship during the day (client affirms), different story. That is not where you are.

CLIENT: But what if Ivan doesn't know that difference? What if he's trying to behave...

THERAPIST: Then he's crazy!

CLIENT: ...like that...

THERAPIST: He's crazy! He's denying reality.

CLIENT: Yeah, but that's kind of... (therapist affirms) Not to be a total jerk, but Ivan like, with the whole seminary thing, he really did believe like...

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. I think that's not okay. That's not okay. It's not okay.

CLIENT: So he told his dad. [00:33:23]

THERAPIST: He did?

CLIENT: He told his dad, which I was like, scared. Like, I felt like asham like, I didn't want him to...

THERAPIST: Wow!

CLIENT: His dad, I mean, his dad is a pastor and in that role, and being more like his friend, as opposed to like, an authority figure in Ivan's... I mean, he is, but taking more of a friend role than a dad role a lot of times. They're just very, very close. I felt bad for him, almost, that he confessed it to his dad, because that, of all the people in his life to tell, that would be like, the hardest. I'm sure it like, his dad, he told me his dad said that, you know, it was disgusting and it was horrible and that he needed to talk to Dr. Bourd, and he needed to talk to a pastor, and he needed to talk to... you know, pretty much (chuckles) every one under the sun and get help and get... And of course, his dad, you know, did not call me and say like, "Are you okay? Just want to like, I don't want to get in the middle, but are you like..." I'm sure he's horrified and now like, hiding in his own like... shame denial thing. [00:34:21]

THERAPIST: That's not a healthy response for any (inaudible).

CLIENT: (sighs) It's not, and I like, I appreciate that he wants Ivan to like... I don't know, get help with the situation or like, deal with it, because it's not okay. But it just, I don't know that either of them know the boundary between like, that and the deep like, shaming that Ivan is already so susceptible to. So that was...

THERAPIST: Even... I know this may sound a little bit strange, from what you might imagine I would say, but even to tell his dad, I... it's a little, I'm not sure that's the best place to bring it for anybody, do you know what I mean? It's so intimate and personal to the two of you. (pause) It, again, if they had a different relationship, maybe. But it sounds like Ivan might have told him to try to get his lashings from his dad.

CLIENT: But why... I don't understand why would someone like, want to be labeled as that, want to say things like, "You shouldn't have to suffer; just leave. Like the..." Why would you do that, but not respond in the like, "I'm really sorry. Let's work on this." Like, I don't understand! They're totally like... [00:35:30]

THERAPIST: Yes, I know. I know. It feels like it should be the same thing, but I think this is what I'm trying to explain, when I say the "Grandiosity of Self-Loathing." "I hate myself," like, let's say I did something that was, that hurt you and I said something that really hurt your feelings. I realized, deep down inside, "Oh, I shouldn't have said that," right? I could sit here and say to you, "I'm so horrible! I'm such a horrible therapist! I can't believe like, Oh, my God, I'm so bad, I'm so..." That's not an apology! Right? That's me beating myself up!

CLIENT: But why... But if you believe that, why doesn't it become an, like why doesn't it translate to an apology?

THERAPIST: It is still not... taking in mind the actual mind of the other person. It is not taking ownership with another person. So it's not, it, I think it's actually harder to walk up to a person and say, "I am sorry. I hurt you. I did something wrong." That requires swallowing your ego, for all of us, right? Apologies for all people are hard work! They take like, their shame, there is... "I screwed up!" It's not easy to say I'm sorry. Even kids need to work on it like, you know, you have to work with little kids for a long time to get this right. "You have to say it!" You have to say it's important to acknowledge it to the face of another person. [00:36:48]

It's much easier to say, "I'm so bad, I'm so bad, I'm so bad." That's not really apologizing. So, and I get this is foreign for you, because you are used to so taking responsibility for other people in some ways. Like, that would have been the response for you. But there are ways, even self-hatred is not... It's not in reality of actually taking accountability for what is yours, right? It's very different than coming out and saying, "This was mine. And this is yours. And I take ownership for my part."

CLIENT: So you're saying the reason that accountability part doesn't happen is because it's... difficult?

THERAPIST: It's hard! I think it's hard for him. I think it's much... I know it sounds crazy, but it's much easier to say, "I'm bad" than "I'm acknowledging to you that you and I both know that I did something that was bad."

CLIENT: But that's so... it doesn't get like, it feels really unproductive. It feels really... [00:37:46]

THERAPIST: Oh, it's really unhealthy in a couple. It's so unhealthy! It's not... that's hopefully what he's working on with Dr. Bourd, is kind of taking ownership more of things. This is, I mean, should I give you an example in you that I think you might be able to identify with? What you might do, instead of the way it plays out with Ivan, is if you might say... blame yourself for everything. I did everything wrong, right? Ivan didn't do this, so it's my fault. If only I'd done that. That's another form of like, not being in the reality of actually, Ramona, it has nothing to do with you. That's his problem.

You might really take it too much on. He doesn't enough, even though on the surface, it looked like he does, right? Even in your taking it too much on yourself, it's not in the reality of what's your responsibility really; what's his responsibility really. It gets really extreme in both of you, and I think you less and less and less so. You've been really working on this. [00:38:53]

This is what you've been bringing in like, "I'm starting to see like, this is him. That's not... it makes me sad, it makes me hurt, it makes me angry, but it's not me." That's you coming more into the reality of what isn't your responsibility, what you're taking too much accountability for! Do you do know what I mean? (client affirms) I think what gets so tricky in the couples therapy is... you, on the surface, look like you're being critical and not taking accountability, when deep down, I think you're taking all of the accountability.

CLIENT: But if I were... If I let the dish , like, for example, if I'm away during the day, I'll let Ivan know like, "I'll take care of the dishes tonight. That's my job. I will do that." I feel like if I, when I mess up, I feel like, I say I'm sorry and I, I don't know. I mean, sometimes, I feel pretty bad about myself, but I think I still...

THERAPIST: This is what I'm saying.

CLIENT: So why...

THERAPIST: You've also, I think, are further along in this than he is. Do you know what I mean? Like, the split that is very dramatic in him I think might have been once more dramatic in you, but it's getting softer and softer and softer. And his is, too, but he's behind. Do you know what I mean? [00:40:05]

CLIENT: Kind of, but does that mean we're the same?

THERAPIST: No. You're different people! You're very different people, the way your defenses work, for example. But there are layers. It's sort of like the opposite layer is hidden in each of you. Do you know what I mean? He's actually... not taking ownership of anything by, on the surface, hating himself for everything. Do you see what I mean?

CLIENT: Yeah. I just don't understand it. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like, so complicated. And it's why, I think that couples therapy is so much hard work right now, to kind of get all of these pieces out on the table. (pause) Coming back to one thing that I think is really important for your future work, if you want to keep working on this with him.

I can't change him, right? So, we're going to work on, with you, because that's what we're here to do. When we work on you, it doesn't mean that I'm telling you, "You are the problem," or "It's all you," or the vast majority is. Even when the majority is in the other person, all we have is you here, right? So that's kind of, that's where I'm coming from in this. [00:41:21]

I think, Ramona, back to when I said like, "Where are your feelings right now with me?" Like, you get a, I feel like you get a suit of armor on, when you talk about some of these things and like, that's what you've had to do your whole life, in so many ways. Like, protect it, guard it inside, because your vulnerability is not safe. I think there may even be ways that that still plays out with Ivan, that might get you stuck and that would even, in another relationship... Let's say you did get divorced, and you married someone who seemed healthier. Your insecurity and vulnerability about having your whole self and your vulnerabilities more on the surface, might play out there too, in some way. So this is where I'm saying... complicated, and (inaudible).

When people discover what you said that is so important about, what if I felt more self-worth? How amazing that would feel to say, "I don't want to be treated this way anymore!" Sometimes, people decide this relationship will never be one that feels, allows me to feel good about myself and do get divorced. Sometimes, people then, like, what would happen if you brought those feelings more and more into the marriage, where you are clear about what's him and what's you, and what you know, what is not okay with you anymore, and that you know that there will be a limit, if it doesn't change, you leave. That's the one part, I think, we still don't know, because you're still working on knowing what you deserve, right? There is a part of you, your own investment in, "Nope, this is what I deserve, this is a lot worse." Do you know what I mean? [00:43:08]

CLIENT: It does, but at the same time, even if I can look at Ivan and say like, "Nobody deserves, you know like, what he did, nobody deserves that (therapist affirms)," what if... (sighs) I'm still, you know, I'm still committed to this person, I'm still married to this person. What if I still have to, not put up with it, but... and how we may have to work on it and I have to give you time to think... I don't know how you... If Ivan, if he had done something more extreme, unfortunately like, then I feel... it could be more cut and dried.

I know this is horrible, I know this is me and this is part of my problem, but if it was something extreme enough that I could talk about it with someone like, I could tell people, if it was something "speakable," that would feel different. If everybody said like, "The vow is already been like, your vows have been broken by him doing something like that. You did the right thing." This is, maybe, it's not a gray area, like it's wrong, but I'm like, too ashamed to tell anyone. Even if I did, I don't know if they'd say like, "Wow! That happened twice? And all this other stuff? And..." I don't know if, you know like, "You've got your work cut out for you," or "Wow, you really don't deserve that like..." It's just... I am really relying on other people and it's hard, because nobody knows, so I (chuckles) feel like I'm just relying on you and Dr. Farrow to tell me like... [00:44:32]

THERAPIST: No one should be being assaulted by their significant other, ever. That's very, this is where I want to be clear, this is black and white. What is not black and white to me, as much, is what you want to do around this with him. The place that I think, Ramona like, even in the couples therapy hour, there could be more room for you... to say to Ivan... I'm going to give you small example. I think, and believe that I think you want the marriage to be over, I actually think invalidates your experience. You're still speaking about his experience, and your conjectures about his experience, or your anger about his experience. It's very different than saying, "Ivan..." It's funny, because you know, when you can imagine what you're going to say, you're going to say it angry, right, get very angry. But I think you are also scared.

CLIENT: I realized I am scared to stay and I'm scared to leave. [00:45:32]

THERAPIST: (pause) Even to say, "Ivan, I'm real scared of you! It's scary now to think, I've been violated by you. I'm hurt. I am sad." Like, actually taking some of your armor off. I think you could go into couples therapy, because you come in here (chuckles) where you're allowed to be as vulnerable as you want, you know! It's hard to actually let like, to have like, be crying with me or something, you know, or... to have, to feel like you get to be, you can feel confident enough in your own experience to have your feelings and to have all, even the most vulnerable ones, and to say to him, more along the lines of your vulnerability. Not the anger, but the vulnerable feelings. I'm hurt, I'm scared, I'm sad. And to have that, because then that becomes... it will start to break down a dynamic which plays out right now, is you're angry, he's ashamed and hurt and this is so critical. If you start saying, "I'm hurt and scared," there is a like, you're both vulnerable then. He might step towards his vulnerable feelings a little bit more. Do you know what I mean? [00:46:49]

CLIENT: It feels, though, like I'm always stuck in this like, either the critical... the critical like, have to, you know, "address these problems" person or the like, really sympathetic, "are you sure you're okay, text me every hour like..." I feel like I get stuck in either one of those, because he's always in tears and always moping and always withdrawing and like, "Oh, I am such a horrible person for this thing that no one has ever like, complained about." (therapist affirms) Like, there is no space for me to say like, "Stop crying! What you did was horrible and I'm really hurt by it. This is like..." It just feels like there is no space.

THERAPIST: I totally, I totally get it. What it feels like is the dynamic you both get drawn into is, he's doing that, so you get angry; who wouldn't? It's extremely frustrating, that he's over there, you know, a pile of self-pity, when he's the one who did it wrong!

CLIENT: It's almost like this cute little puppy, who just made an accident (ph) like, you want to be like, "This is unacceptable!" And they're just like, whimpering, cute and defenseless and you can't... That's how it feels! [00:47:52]

THERAPIST: And it's a tricky defense like, you can watch kids do that like, the kid who hits another kid and then realizing then, and then starts to cry and say, "I'm such a bad person." So they actually, never actually saying, "Oh, I did something wrong." And you're saying, "No! You don't get away with this, just by saying, 'Oh, I'm such a bad person.' You have to say you're sorry to this person! Like, that's not, that's not an apology, right?" It's kind of childish, in a way, what he's doing. It's very young, it's like a, you know, a three-year-old.

(pause) So, part of the work in you, to the degree that you're wanting to keep working on this, and I... This is not a prescription that you should be either, Ramona. I'm here, not knowing what the right answer is. I don't think it's ever my position to tell someone they should be getting divorced or staying married. It's, you're the, your experience of it is what matters, and you're the guidepost in here for us. I can take a position on aspects of reality like, if he is doing something to you that is destructive to you or harmful, I'm going to be very clear with you, that that is not okay. If it continues in the marriage, I'll be clear that that is repeatedly not okay, and that you've been seeing a lot of things that are not okay, you know. [00:49:10]

We're trying to figure this out together, about what, because it's a huge, huge decision. It's not a, you know, it's not as simple as a recommendation one way or the other for anyone. But I think the part that is, I think if you keep working on bringing vulnerability and not... (inaudible) like, what if it happened in the session, say, "You know what, I don't want it." You could say what you just said to me. I think that's brilliant. If you could say that to him, and to Dr. Farrow. I feel like we get pulled into these two different points, where either I'm angry or I'm feeling sorry for him. I'm working on trying to find my vulnerable feelings, and to make space for my tears and my sadness, because I'm hurting, too. I know, Ivan, you're hurting. We hear all the time about how you're hurting. I'm in a lot of pain right now. This is really hard for me. And trying to find a different place, besides anger or feeling sorry for him, taking care of Ivan. Do you know what I mean? (client affirms) [00:50:12]

(pause) We'll meet Monday. You're not, are you seeing Dr. Farrow, before then?

CLIENT: Um, no. We're scheduled for Thursday right now, so...

THERAPIST: Okay. All right. I'll see you then.

CLIENT: Thank you. (pause) Um, if you, do you have a second time? I would be interested in another time, if you have one. I don't need to know now.

THERAPIST: Yes, so... Okay. I'll shoot you an e-mail, as soon as I know.

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