TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: After he is gone?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Not so much. I have more been thinking, "I wonder what his parents had to say. I wonder what he had to say. I wonder." I am trying to put myself in the mindset of The last time he did this in February, which was not long after he told me about (inaudible 00:00:22) I guess, I had this sort of expectation that he was going to go home and think about it and ruminate and do a little bit of work, as it were, on himself and come back really prepared to dig in.

And instead he didn't want to talk to me while he was away. He totally avoided it. Was going out to dinners with his family. Going out to the movies. Going to see all of his different family that lives around there. And I had expectations of one thing and something else happened and I So this time I am trying not to have, like it wouldn't make sense for him to go home and find that for a place of accountability when it really hasn't been and it is really hard for his parents to So I am trying to have that mindset.

THERAPIST: It is not a place where he is going to go home and something is going to change, in other words.

CLIENT: Right. Right.

THERAPIST: It is more like just a reprieve for you.

CLIENT: Which is something. Yes.

THERAPIST: It is something.

CLIENT: And I really need it. [00:01:23]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I admit this, although I feel like it is wrong or I feel like it is foolish, or I don't know what the right word would be. But he says his Dad told his Mom so now both of his parents know what happened and no one else knows. I would assume they haven't told anyone and that they just told him, "This is unacceptable. We love you but this is so disappointing and so "

And like I said, I don't know what the right word is to express how I feel about it, but neither of his parents have anything towards me. In fact he went home this past weekend, it was his Mom's birthday. And as per usual, I did the card, I did the majority of the gift, like I took care of sending that along and everything. And he said his Mom told him to send along her thanks.

And I just like It shouldn't, like none of it should really bother me I guess. But I thought, "Are they somehow mad at me?" Because in the past I felt like they have blamed me even for the seminary ordeal and stuff. [00:02:27]

THERAPIST: They have blamed you?

CLIENT: Well his Dad was pretty direct, they were both pretty direct in some instances, that they thought I contributed to Ivan's depression. Pretty much that if I -

THERAPIST: How? (laughs)

CLIENT: Pretty much that if I wasn't so critical and if I didn't voice any, if I hadn't been voicing any concerns or about my feelings about the whole periods of not looking for jobs, periods of, you know, like not opening his loan mail. Things like, you know, for six months and almost defaulted. Like all those scenarios, if I hadn't been hard on him he wouldn't have felt so down, which I don't buy.

THERAPIST: But how does that even blame you for what happened in seminary? I don't get it.

CLIENT: I think more for the reaction to seminary, not actually -

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: But at this time when he left his Dad was really upset with me because I Under the pretense of "It is not my fit," I had said, "But you only have one. Like you have less than one semester left. Maybe it is worth it even if it is not your dream. You are really close to having something that could get you a better job." And his Dad was really upset with me about that and I guess more my response to it. [00:03:38]

THERAPIST: What would it be like to talk about that time more today? I don't know if your mind is somewhere else.

CLIENT: It is kind of somewhere else.

THERAPIST: It is. Okay.

CLIENT: It is bizarre for me because the whole seminary fiasco and so many of these situations, they have been huge. And now with this it feels like this is huge.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And it feels like that is not such a big deal in comparison. But something I have been thinking about is, pretty much just back and forth, I could see myself Could I leave? Could I stay? And in a lot of ways staying feels easier. (laughs) It just does.

THERAPIST: Say more. What are you picturing? What are you thinking about? What are you feeling about these options?

CLIENT: I feel like, I am making it less personal, but I feel like if something happens in a marriage and it is agreed that it is, you know, unacceptable or it is, you know, it shouldn't have happened. Like things happen in marriage. People make mistakes. Hopefully, this is different than just an ordinary mistake maybe. [00:04:50]

But not everybody leaves when something goes wrong. I guess it is easier in some ways to stay and hope that things get better because you have invested so much time and so much energy and so much of your life and your family's life. You have invested an incredible amount, especially after you are married. You don't have to tell everyone you know and worry if they are going to judge you or not judge you. And I wouldn't have to come up with a sentence to explain what he did without explaining what he did.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And I wouldn't have to worry if people validated that as like, "My gosh, you should never." Like, "I am so glad you got out of that." Or if they said, my one friend, actually my really close friend from grad school, Helen. She had told me how We were having a discussion and it was more about one of her family members, that she was saying how she just wished people worked harder on their marriages or whatever and how disappointing it was that so many people got divorced. [00:06:00]

And she was so afraid to marry her boyfriend of five or six years because, you know, they have been together longer than some of the people who have gotten married. And I just I also feel that if I didn't have religious beliefs, or at least the ones that I have, it could be very different. But it wasn't just a legal agreement for me. So if it was, no issue. (laughs) Like there would be no issue of course. It is just feeling impossible. And I don't even know if that is the right thing to do.

THERAPIST: In a way, as you begin to imagine these possibilities, it sounds like what you would be facing feeling is much harder in not being together. [00:07:07]

CLIENT: And it is less hard to stay, especially with what is going on, because no one knows what is going on. And so so many of the other issues, it feels like it is really just my issue. And so if I keep my mouth shut is there really a problem? Because no one else is bringing it into the room. So if Ivan is not going to hold himself accountable and I am the only one in his life that is doing that, if I look the other way or I decide that it won't happen again, it is not an issue. And when I hear myself say that I hear -

THERAPIST: Except you have this other person in your life now who knows what is happening.

CLIENT: It is just it is really hard to think about investing all of that. And I know how silly and irrational this sounds, but I keep thinking back to our wedding. And I think about all the money that was spent and I think about the year and half of planning that went into it. And I think about every guest and every gift and every, like all of those people who came to validate and acknowledge. [00:08:20]

And I just can't bear I can't bear facing all those people and facing all those memories. And even our wedding album, I can't deal with. Like I just can't. I don't know how to do that. And I don't know if I should.

THERAPIST: What is the feeling coming up?

CLIENT: I think guilt and shame. And I think it is a lot of I feel like a bad Christian. (crying)

THERAPIST: [Oh, of course.] (ph)

CLIENT: I mean that is I am not articulating it very well but it is just that when you make a commitment like that and if you have religious beliefs attached to it it is different than I mean not that people who, you know, get married at the courthouse have any less of a firm commitment but this one is attached to something that [00:09:28]

THERAPIST: It is a core part of your identity and your sense of meaning in the world.

CLIENT: Making a promise in front of God and everyone you love and all your family members and believing that that is a sacred type of promise is very different.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And when you view it that way it feels like breaking that would be letting down not just all those people who came to the wedding but it feels like I would be a failure. It feels like starting over would mean moving somewhere where no one knew me. It feels like I would be labeled as "divorced" (crying) at 25 which is so bizarre.

It feels like I would be admitting that I was young and dumb and, you know, couldn't figure out who I was marrying, couldn't see through a bunch of lies. And I just don't think anyone would I worry so much about what people would think and what they would say and how they would treat me. But I think more how I would see myself.

THERAPIST: Yourself, yeah.

CLIENT: If I could accept that about myself and move on. [00:10:38]

THERAPIST: You are your biggest critic, Ramona, I think.

CLIENT: And just when I think I could start to wrap my head around even a small part of that I think of a memory I have with him that was so great or so nice or so different. So that is the best word. So different from this type of behavior. And I think, "Why?" Maybe there is more to this. Then maybe that is not fair. You know? But what I can't understand is why he would do something like this. I really, really, really honest to goodness don't understand it. (pause)

THERAPIST: And you feel very, very betrayed and confused.

CLIENT: I do. And I feel like it was, you know, one huge thing to wrap my head around. Like erasing a lot of the expectations I had about Ivan in terms of job and education. And this is getting more to the core. [00:11:40]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And this is such a horrible, horrible thing but I think that what Ivan did was a violation but I don't know if it justifies ending the marriage. Whereas, if he had violated me to greater extent then I think I could. And it really, you know, if it is the same thing just to different degrees maybe that shouldn't matter. But that is how it feels.

THERAPIST: Ramona, you are such a critic of yourself. I mean the number of times You just said, "This is a horrible, horrible thing," (inaudible at 00:12:20).

CLIENT: But to think something like, "If my husband had raped me I could leave him," but all he did was touch me inappropriately a couple of times while I slept. Not that that is a minimal, but that is different. That is very different.

THERAPIST: You are having thoughts and feelings and I think you get really critical, even where your fantasy goes or your feelings go and your thoughts go. I am interested in every thought and feeling and fantasy you are having. And I think that is how we get to know ourselves to figure out ultimately what you want to do in your life whether in your marriage, in a job or whatever.

It is getting to know what all of the feelings are including the loving feelings and the loving history. That is part of the picture too. Including even a wish that he had done something, he had raped you or some thing to that extreme.

CLIENT: I don't. It is just that it feels like the things that Ivan, like these big things that I feel like I can't tell anyone about, it feels like they are really not okay. And you described it as him taking sort of the back door to get what he wants in all these different situations. And that feels like a really not okay pattern. But I can't tell everyone I am leaving my husband because he doesn't roll up his sleeves to get what he wants. That is not a reason to end a marriage. [00:13:51]

But what if it is? What if there is a very fine line between, you know, assaulting your spouse and raping them? And what if the only reason he didn't was because it would have woken me up. It is monstrous. And I don't know. I don't know the answer to any of these questions. And he has shown zero interest in talking about it.

I guess I felt a little good because before he left I told him pretty much what you had said which was that I felt that there was a difference between him saying that he was a horrible person and that he felt he didn't deserve me given the whole saga. And taking ownership and really apologizing and really wanting to talk about it and work on it. And that that still hasn't happened.

THERAPIST: You said that.

CLIENT: I did.

THERAPIST: Wow. Could he hear it?

CLIENT: He said he thought that was true.

THERAPIST: So he heard you a little bit for a second. [00:14:54]

CLIENT: (sigh) So last night he called at close to ten o'clock and his family was, you know, still doing stuff or whatever. And he wanted to ask about my day, he wanted to know what I had done in my day. And I said I really didn't want to share about my day. I said that I couldn't pretend like nothing was going on and that I just wasn't interested in having that type of a conversation. And that pretty much when he wanted to have a real conversation about what was going on then I was interested in talking. (sigh) So I guess that is all a little good.

THEARAPIST: Yeah. It is like that is a new kind of self-protection and self-validation that is neither enraged fury or stuffing this all down and doing whatever it is he wants. It is really different. You are being clearer about what you are thinking and feeling and saying what you, your experience is. Saying what your thoughts are about him. And being a little more vulnerable even, it sounds like. [00:16:07]

CLIENT: It felt firm. It felt assertive. It felt like I was taking a little bit of dignity back after what he did. (pause) Why do I am assuming that this thing can happen in marriages and that I am not the only one that has experienced this, unfortunately. Why does something like that happen?

THERAPIST: Like what he did physically?

CLIENT: Right. I (sigh) Like what are reasons? Because I have been trying to I hear him saying that he is frustrated and that he really wants physical intimacy, but I can't think that what he did achieved that for him. And I can't think that even if it had he would feel good about it or that it would be really be what So I don't get the point.

THERAPIST: Yeah. When you say "frustrated" are you referring to sexually frustrated?

CLIENT: I am assuming that that is part of it. It is certainly something that he has complained about. I don't get it. Like I really don't get the point in doing that. [00:17:18]

THERAPIST: It is a really complicated behavior. It is unusual just as raping someone is unusual. It is not typical but it is of the nature, along the lines of what we talked about where something is too hard to do emotionally and gets sidestepped in favor of the physical.

And so it could even be, like a couple could jointly do this where they have sex when they haven't even had a conversation or don't know anything about each other's days. Or, you know, they aren't talking about what is really happening in the relationship at all. And they could both do that at the same time. Meanwhile there is this other undercurrent of all this stuff that is getting buried under the rug. Right? [00:18:23]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: That is not the way you are responding but that is the way he is responding. Where it steps it up a notch to me beyond it is not just avoiding the feelings, is that there is something The fact that it is a violation of you, you know? It is a violence against you. So there is something very aggressive in it also.

CLIENT: But that is what I really don't understand. He keeps saying Like him refusing to, you know, do his part of the apartment stuff is aggressive. That something like this is aggressive. And I think I understand No. I understand it not at all because I have in my mind the typical aggression of yelling or hitting or -

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: And I know that that is not the only form of aggression but I was wondering if you could explain how this is aggressive.

THERAPIST: Yes. I am trying to think of an analogy. So you know, you have heard the term "passive aggression." [00:19:27]

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: So I think of it along those lines. Like "My nagging wife always tells me to take the trash out and I am so annoyed that she is constantly in my ear." Right? I am not even saying that this is you but right? This is, "da, da, da, da, da, da, da."

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: "And it is all I hear is nag, nag, nag, nag, nag." And it makes then the man, the husband, dig in his heels and "I am not going to take it out." So it becomes a battle of wits. "So she is nagging me and the way I get back at her is I don't do it and I see what she thinks about that." Right? It is a kind of pushing the envelope a little bit. It is its own kind of quiet aggression back.

I am not saying it is only that with Ivan. It fact it might not even the majority of the motivation. The majority of the motivation could be deficit. It could be that it is trouble organizing. But there may be woven in layers of this is the way he expresses or asserts some part of himself very, very, very quietly. And it is a very maladaptive expression. [00:20:38]

He would be much better off taking out the garbage and talking to you about how he is mad. Right? Just talking about his feelings. Using "I" statements himself. Not in action. There is a lot coming out in him in action that I think this is what is so complicated. It is fused with deficits too. Right? It is fused with that he does have trouble organizing himself and appropriately asserting himself.

He does avoid out of shame a lot of things. But there may be a layer And I think this is I introduce the aggressive layer when what he is doing to you is It becomes undeniable because of the level of the action that there is something aggressive about it. That if you don't know that there is, he is not in reality.

To fondle someone in their sleep is a violent act. It is an abusive, violating act on another person. Right? I don't think you could take anyone and say that that wasn't the case. It is not a matter of an opinion. [00:21:54]

CLIENT: But I don't think he sees that as violent or abusive. And I think I have been having trouble understanding how that is aggressive in the term that I understand aggression to be. I guess I just don't even know what that is. I don't even know where that comes from.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I get if your partner doesn't want to have sex and you really do, I get that you would try to circumvent that if you felt pushed to that. I get that, not that that is right, but I get that that could happen. I just don't understand how what he did achieved any of what he really wanted.

THERAPIST: It didn't.

CLIENT: So why would you Like I don't understand.

THERAPIST: Why would he do that?

CLIENT: I don't understand that.

THERAPIST: This is where I think of it along the lines of even just impulse control. Like in the heat of the moment maybe it did feel good to him. Maybe it was erotic. Maybe it was sexual. It is like someone who drinks. In the heat of the moment an alcoholic getting drunk that night feels really good. And the impulse of it feels really good right then. [00:23:02]

The next day it is horrible what you have done. So the long terms consequences of having engaged in the behavior that in the heat of the moment feels enticing. Sexuality is enticing for people. Right? When not repressed it is a basic drive. It feels good. It is pleasure. It is bodily pleasure. It is woven into the fabric of people, of humankind, of animals, of every person that having that experience feels good.

So in the heat of the moment maybe there was something in the very short run in those, however long it was, it felt good. But in the long run it is horribly destructive to your relationship. You know? It could have been he just couldn't help himself. He couldn't resist the urge. Like to drink or any number of addictive behaviors somebody could engage in. That it may have been impulsive.

CLIENT: That is why I don't If he was able to do it twice at least that he is admitting to, and that to me I don't know. That sets off some kind of alarm like this is different from a mistake that you really regret and want to I don't know. Clearly, I have made mistakes that I regretted more than once. I just don't know. [00:24:15]

Like I have been telling you, I don't know how to react to this. I don't know if I should minimize it. I don't know if I should really draw attention to it. I don't know if I should leave him and just that like, "No one is ever doing that to me. I am not putting up with it." Or if I should say, "This is a horrible thing. It is unacceptable. We are going to have to work on it long and hard before I can ever trust you again."

THERAPIST: You don't trust your own experience.

CLIENT: No. No. Absolutely not. And the only thing I think I do know at this age is that you shouldn't make a decision about the fate of your marriage when you are really upset at your spouse. Something, when I have turned the tables a little bit, I have thought about it in terms of if we were dating. Absolutely, I would be out the door and it would feel so good.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, it would feel so good to get away from all of the crap, quite frankly. Like it would feel so good. Not that I would not still have issues, like things to work on and my own flaws. But it would feel so good not to deal with any of that any more. And the drama of like "It is so hard for him to do these things," versus "It would feel really good to get away from it and never look back." [00:25:27]

And I have also thought about it in terms of, "Would I marry Ivan today?" And of course the answer is "no." Which doesn't feel good to admit. Something else I have been concerned about is, do I feel less satisfied in my marriage because of relative comparison.

So now that I live in a city where a lot of people are young, professional, well educated, driven, like a lot of opportunities around them, do I see Ivan as less. Do I feel less satisfied with him than I did when we lived in a very, very small town where we went to college and the population was not very large on campus.

Is that the reason? Because that doesn't sound like a good reason to leave someone. At the same token, do I just feel more attached to him because I am committed to him, attached to him, because you feel more attached or more endeared to something once you have ownership of it. If that is the case, that is not a good reason. [00:26:41]

THERAPIST: And familiarity is comfortable for people. Right? Not just you, people. We grow attached. People just attach to the people they are around. That is kind of the way human attachment works, right? You know? Ducks imprinting. Attachment, right?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It is a system that means who you are there with you grow attached to. I also think, so you are saying that I mean, what you are doing right now is really, really important I think as the next steps is trying all of these different ideas on for size inside you. Seeing what they feel like. Seeing what it would feel like, for example, to end your marriage tomorrow. Right? You might have feelings about that that descend if you were to sort of say, "What would look like? What would that feel like?" [00:27:44]

You get to know yourself more as you let your mind have these fantasies. I think it will get clearer and clearer for you what you are wanting to do. Even if what that means is what you are wanting to do is, you do want to stay in the marriage tomorrow. You are not ready to end the marriage tomorrow. But what you would need in order for the marriage to work for you to feel like you want to stay.

I mean that is the piece that, if there is room in this marriage, what would happen as you feel what you are feeling more and more of now about your wanting support. What you were able to say to him about, "No, that is actually not an apology and I am not going to get drawn into the self-loathing cycle that means that it is all about you." That is not an apology.

What happens as that starts to come more in to the couples work. You know? Where you are just that. You are in that mental place that is appropriately self-protective and firm and clear. Right? Where you can say, "You cannot ever do that to me again because that will end the marriage." [00:28:55]

CLIENT: But I feel like I have tried to set limits before and it hasn't worked because I haven't ever had a point where I have said, "I am done if this happens. I am done if this is still going on by this date." It hasn't happened because I just It is really hard. And at some point Ivan always makes some kind of apology.

And in this case it has literally just been, "I am sorry," the end. Like literally. And mostly just all about how horrible he feels. And I feel compelled to forgive him. I feel like that is the right thing to do. But I don't know if part of that forgiveness should be staying with him.

THERAPIST: Forgive is a tricky psychic experience to me. You I don't think have had even enough room to have your experience of what happened. I don't think forgiving can happen before -

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: what happened gets acknowledged and owned and felt. Your experience understood. Your "I" statements understood. Your sadness, your hurt, your fear even of him. [00:30:12]

CLIENT: But I don't want to end the marriage ultimately because it is an easy way out. I don't want to be a quitter. I don't want to be a failure. I don't want to say, "It would be too hard to try to forgive this. It would be too hard to ever trust you again. It would be ." That is how I feel right now.

THERAPIST: You have also been articulating to me, Ramona, that you actually think the easy way out is staying.

CLIENT: I know. (laughs) I know. Both of them can feel like the easy way out depending on when I am thinking about it or what I am trying to do. I can create arguments for either side. I lay awake at night going back and forth and back and forth. Yes, I can put myself in that mindset. I could leave. I could start over. No, I couldn't do that. I couldn't throw away five years. It feels horrible.

THERAPIST: What would you say to your daughter if she were in this exact situation with her husband.

CLIENT: I can't even imagine.

THERAPIST: What do you imagine [you would be] (ph) feeling and saying? [00:31:16]

CLIENT: I think (pause) No one has to put up with that. (pause) And that clearly anyone would deserve better than that. No matter who you are you deserve better than that.

THERAPIST: What if she said to you, "Mom. I am not sure I want to stay in the marriage any more but we poured all this money into this wedding."

CLIENT: I would say I support her either way, obviously. And money is no reason to stay in a marriage. I know my parents would say that. I know that. (pause) I mean that is one thing my Dad has been good at. He is not good at the emotional stuff but he has always been at the taking care of us in financial ways because he wasn't home. [00:32:26]

So when I totaled the car (laughs) in senior year of high school and normally that would have been something like, "Here is the next car." I mean it wasn't crazy expensive of anything but it was a nice car. And he just said, "I don't care." And I know that is what he would (crying) say in this situation. It is just I am sorry. (crying) This is not like me.

It is just like I don't know what to I wish I could get more people's opinions or more I feel like I would be shaped by the way, by testing it almost. By testing out the waters and seeing how people thought. How people felt about the way things had gone. But I just don't think I could tell anyone. My sister has been very worried about me and very taking on her traditional mother role.

THERAPIST: Does she know everything? No. You haven't told her.

CLIENT: She doesn't know anything about it. And she keeps saying, "I won't push you to tell me but I really want you to It is okay if we are on the phone and I can tell something is wrong, you can tell me you don't want to talk about it. But please just acknowledge that something is wrong. I am really worried about you." Really. She has been very [00:33:40]

And I came close the other day. I almost just want to blurt it out and just get it over with. But then I thought we couldn't have gone on to enjoy the day. She couldn't have let it go and forget that I had mentioned it. And she would have been so hurt. And if I decided to stay with Ivan I don't know how long it would take her to I don't know.

And that is a horrible This is something I don't like about what I am doing but I am protecting him because in what he did I shouldn't feel any shame, but I do. And I don't want people to see him that way, especially because that might mean that I have to start seeing him that way.

THERAPIST: I think that is what is scary is telling other people means that it becomes more real, that it actually happened. Even to you.

CLIENT: And then there is no denying it. There is no having a good day with him and then pretending like nothing ever happened. [00:34:43]

THERAPIST: That is my greatest fear for you, Ramona, is that you are quietly entering into the repetition of your childhood where no one is in reality with you. It is not getting recognized what is actually happening and named that it is a problem and it is not your fault.

CLIENT: Do you think it would be helpful for me to tell someone?

THERAPIST: I think it would be helpful for you to tell your sister. And that is one opinion. I am not saying I know that that is the right answer. With everything you say about your relationship with her, she has been a positive support to you.

CLIENT: Always.

THERAPIST: I think you could even say to her, "Here are my anxieties about telling you. I don't want this to become the sum total of what you think of him. It is really important that this be part of him that you know and part of him that I know. And I want to also be able to set this aside with you some so that we can go have a day together." You know, so that it doesn't run the show but also isn't forgotten. [00:35:44]

CLIENT: I thought about it is the type of thing I felt like I could maybe bring myself to tell my mother because I could trust her more than I mean she would probably be so upset she would probably tell my Dad. But I feel like it is that level of personal even though Colleen takes on the role of my mother. But I can't. I just can't.

She is so I mean she is having surgery at the end of the month. Like she just cannot handle And that wouldn't be fair. And that is what I worry about with Colleen. I think that she would get very upset and it would occupy her thoughts and it would hurt her.

THERAPIST: So you protect her too. And at what cost? I mean there is a lot of protecting everybody else you do, Ramona. And at the cost of you. [00:36:46]

CLIENT: So if I told my sister, how could I explain it?

THERAPIST: I don't think you have to explain it. I think you could say, "Here is what happened and I am having a lot of feelings about it. They are all different mixed feelings. I don't know what to make of it yet. I am working on it in therapy. I feel angry, I feel hurt, I feel betrayed. I feel ashamed of even talking about this with you." But it does feel important for me to name what is actually happening and not being so afraid of being in reality.

I actually think having this be real is going to allow you, even if you wanted to stay in the marriage for the time being and work on this, I think it will allow you to work on it in a different way so that you start to know inside yourself, Ramona, that this really happened and that it is really, really not okay and it cannot happen again. [00:37:47]

There is a way that by not having anybody know you can even pretend to yourself that it wasn't so bad or maybe it is not the biggest deal. Or maybe we can sit and watch this movie and I don't have to know that that happened.

CLIENT: But I mean his parents know.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And they haven't so much as, "Are you okay?"

THERAPIST: You can't count on them for that. We both know that about them. They don't live in reality and they never have with him. I mean it is horrible. It is horrible for him and for you that they are not in reality. That is, I guess, my concern too is you take then as, "Oh, it must not be that bad if they didn't ask if I am okay."

CLIENT: I just don't I don't understand that. I mean I understand they must feel horrible. They must feel ashamed. And they would probably feel embarrassed to call because they would have to acknowledge it. But it still feels wrong. I literally don't know the words to use if I was going to tell my sister. If I use the word "assault" that could mean he is hitting me and I really don't [00:39:08]

THERAPIST: Molested is the closest. Violated. Violated you sexually.

CLIENT: I am so embarrassed to explain that to her.

THERAPIST: Your embarrassment is a signal, Ramona, that something bad actually did happen. Do you know what I mean? The embarrassment, though, what is problematic about that is that you take it as some reflection of you. That is the old stuff for you. As though you did something wrong.

CLIENT: No, I know that but I also Like my sister and I would never talk about sex. We never have.

THERAPIST: Oh. So even just that level.

CLIENT: We never have. Like that is just not something that was ever. So that is, I don't know.

THERAPIST: So it is new territory in your relationship with her. Even if it were something positive you wanted to talk about sexually. (laughs) I know you are cringing. It is an ordinary part of human life together. I actually think it is healthier for people if there are some words around it so it doesn't become this frightening horrid unspeakable thing. [00:40:29]

It actually can be part of a relationship that is very loving and feels good and it is very sad that it is coming out right now in a way that feels horrible. It is not supposed to feel that way. It is not a loving thing that happened. It is a very violating thing that happened that he did to you. (pause) So, you know, this is new stuff even to talk with me about it. (pause)

Ramona, I think at some level the silver lining of this is that this puts loudly and clearly, even in a couples therapy, a dynamic in Ivan that has not been being held accountable, I think, even there. At least from what you relate to me about it. That maybe even at some level Ivan knew about some part of him wasn't get named. Do you know what I mean? [00:41:36]

Like we are working on Ramona's criticism but what about Ivan's accountability? What about his back door stuff? Why isn't that getting more brought into the work? This is a way that it is loudly there.

CLIENT: But I am still This is maybe too big of a question for the time we have left, but I think you used the term Dr. Bourd (ph) had raised: "sociopathic tendency." I don't want to put the wrong label or put words in your mouth. What?

THERAPIST: It's not The way it came up in that conversation was not thinking Ivan is a sociopath. You know what that kind of means?

CLIENT: I do.

THERAPIST: Nobody thinks that. It is more the idea of getting a part of oneself that was alive as a child. Getting that more known, out in the open. It is like a secret delinquency that happens on the side that for him proves his badness. Do you know what I mean? Like it is serving some function. Even had you never found about it my guess is at some level he is feeling deeply ashamed and what a bad, what a sinner he is. [00:42:57]

You know, he could have done it and then felt like this, "Okay. I am a bad person. I am a bad husband. Why did I?" You know? And then do it again. And part of the function is to be whipping himself into the state of being the total bad sinner. That is kind of where he operates to an extreme degree.

I remember seeing him here. The session we had in here it was there was almost no getting through to a real person. He is not able to even enter into the space of having a dialogue because he is so preoccupied with whipping himself. He is not in the (inaudible at 00:43:45) with you talking about what has happened. He is just in a conversation with himself about how bad he is.

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Do you know what I mean? So it is that kind of That is what I mean like the kind of recreating that self that is bad. "I'm bad. I'm bad. I'm bad." And I don't know his history well enough to know where that would have come from. That is what hopefully Dr. Bourd (ph) going to help him.

Actually, this is what is strange about it. Start to feel not so bad about himself. I think if he felt less bad about himself he wouldn't do things like that anymore. You know the kid who gets, for example, gets in trouble in school all the time, maybe who has a learning disability and keeps being told he is stupid, he is stupid, he is stupid by the teachers in the old days.

That kid starts to act out after a while. Because you say, "Well if you are going to treat me this way, I am going to make this " Like it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy.

CLIENT: It is a label?

THERAPIST: I might as well play out the role. It is a label. Right? So you start acting in the way that everybody is saying you are. And then they get to say it all the more. "See you are like this." But I think if he felt, like not felt so horribly about himself he would start to not have to do these things that then recreated that feeling for him.

That doesn't mean you have to put up with it. Right? That is a whole thing, a process he will be in with Dr. Bourd (ph) if it is going well. It could take ten years for him to get to the end of that. That has nothing to do with, "Okay. Therefore, Ramona, you need to be understanding and be patient." [00:44:55]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: That is who he is and that is what he is struggling with right now. And you are having to sort of be trying on, "Can I tolerate who he is right now for a long period right now." We have got to stop. It is a lot.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: A lot. Should we do Thursday. Would that work?

CLIENT: If it is okay.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I will put through a few as soon as I can. Maybe even this afternoon so we will know right away.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I think we should just do and we will figure something else out if there is no insurance. I also saw your insurance ends August 23rd.

CLIENT: Correct.

THERAPIST: So I have that number in my You will get on your parents insurance?

CLIENT: Yes. I guess that would be my next plan if I don't have something.

THERAPIST: Okay. Alright. Talk to you Thursday at noon.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Thank you.

END TRANSCRIPT