TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: It doesn't make sense for you to stop because of this. You got to figure out how to make it work.

How are you? Where are things? I got an update from Emily...

CLIENT: You did?

THERAPIST: ...yeah...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...about the last session. You have one I'm sure you had a couple with her since you've seen me?

CLIENT: One.

THERAPIST: Just the one, yeah. So tell me your I'm just curious your perspective on it and what happened, where are you? How are things?

CLIENT: Really, really bad. Really, really, really bad. Probably worse than ever. It's bad.

THERAPIST: "It's bad," meaning your relationship? "It's bad," meaning your depression? "It's bad," your anxiety?

CLIENT: All of the above. [laughs] The session was pretty much her saying, "You need to separate. It was not helpful. [00:01:00] I guess that was helpful, in and of itself, but there was no-that was pretty much it.

And since then, Ivan's not talking to me, avoiding me. If I try to talk with him, he's really mean. He's really angry. He's really, really, really angry, and it's all coming out at me, and I don't understand. And even if I try to... I don't know, tell him how sad I am about it, or how hurt I am, or how much I don't understand why we still haven't talked, really, about any of that, it's just anger. It's sarcasm. It's cruel and I don't understand it at all.

And he's looking for a place to stay, I guess, to sublet. Yesterday, he told me that he doesn't think we should renew the lease. [00:02:00] It's up for renewal October 26th, which means today is our last day-two months in advance is the last day to tell him you're moving out without paying a penalty, a whole month's rent.

Originally, in the session, he said, "Ramona, you can keep the apartment. I will find a place to stay. And then we'll keep the apartment. And then if, at the end of whatever period, I could move back in, we could keep the apartment." But now he said, "I don't think we should renew. I think even if things work out that we should have a fresh start and a fresh place to live." And I said, "Why are you skipping over talking about what happened, working through this operation? Why are you skipping over all those steps to that?"

And he really [laughs] switched gears and said something to the effect of maybe he wasn't being clear but he said that he didn't think it was affordable for me to stay there, in addition to him staying in another place. [00:03:06] That's a very different rationale. [laughs]

And I know I don't have a job yet. And I know he doesn't make much working at Subway. I suggested he could stay in New Orleans for free. He has so much family, and there are lots of Subway. He doesn't want to do that, so he's not doing that.

THERAPIST: So he's looking for a place with roommates, then, when you say, "Sublet"?

CLIENT: That's what he says.

THERAPIST: Like Craig's List or something like that, yeah.

I can't quite tell what you're feeling, Ramona. You're so (inaudible at 00:03:52)

CLIENT: I've been crying a lot.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:03:53) a lot, on top of all of this.

CLIENT: I can't sleep through the night. I can't stop crying. [00:04:00] Thursday, I thought I was [laughs] never going to stop crying. Wake up in the night, I start crying and start thinking about it. Every spare thought is consumed with thinking about it. I'm so sad and so hurt. I keep trying to coax him to make this big apology, or this big explanation, or this big plan, even for, I don't know, a way to turn it around or a way-I don't know. Anything, anything at all.

And he stays out until midnight. He won't, he won't...

THERAPIST: It sounds like the part of you is hoping maybe he would come around, if you're both pushed right up close to the flame of separation. Would that be enough for him to say, "I'm sorry and I want to work on this and make it better"? [00:05:03]

CLIENT: At bare minimum, I guess I don't understand why he's not looking for a way to, if we do separate for one to three months, at bare minimum, have some kind of, "This is what we should do during this time," or, "This is what I want to do."

Won't even talk about it. I asked him when he's moving out and he said, "As soon as possible."

THERAPIST: He's really angry.

CLIENT: But I don't understand why he's angry at me. I asked him, I saild, "Why are you speaking to me like this? Why are you angry at me? What did I do?" When I try to ask him questions like that, he keeps repeating something that he's already said that has nothing to do with it, like, "I'll be home at 3:30," or, "I've been dog-sitting for my friends, because they're on vacation." [00:06:01] Or he'll say, "I'll take her out when I decide to come home." He would keep saying that, over and-he won't. He won't actually respond to what I'm saying.

He hasn't ever broken down and cried and really been apologetic. He said he told his parents that he's moving out and that they're very supportive of both of us. Emma knows, but I haven't told anyone. I can't. It's too much, and I'm spending all my time crying and being really upset about it.

Emma has been really, really good about-Thursday, she came over after work. She made dinner with me and spent some time with me and was really there for me. [00:07:05] Saturday and Sunday, she did the same thing. She came over, she brought over some ingredients with a plan for dinner and it's really supportive. I was able to work on some job stuff because she was there, and I wasn't able to sit and cry.

THERAPIST: Ramona, this is one of the hardest things people ever go through in their life.

CLIENT: It shouldn't...

THERAPIST: I just want to sort of let you know how normal and ordinary it is that this is one of the most stressful events in people's lives breaking up, moving, having a child. Sometimes these things are good things. Even at the end of the road, there are things that are heading in a good direction but they're an unbelievable amount of stress and pain. [00:08:00]

I hear you just wishing Ivan would be a partner and talking to you about this, even if it's to plan together right now and process that you're going (inaudible at 00:08:10) trying to do this, and talking more about what you hope this did or your fears or sharing your sadnesses together. But it sounds like, once again, he can't, he just can't be there with you.

Which in some ways I mean, I get that's it's surprising, because you wish of all times he would be there now but it's sort of what he's always done. That's the thing you've been having a problem with in him all along.

CLIENT: I'm in so much disbelief. He still hasn't ever asked about my mom. He still hasn't asked-that's not been unusual, but he still hasn't asked, I'm still struggling to find a job. No questions at all. If I ask him why he's not asking or-especially with my mom, I think, no matter even if I had done to him what he did to me, I would still think he would call. [00:09:08] It's such an extreme and he says, "I didn't know when you were going. I didn't..." It happened on Tuesday and he was in New Orleans and not talking to me. I tried to call him on Wednesday and he was with his parents, going out or whatever, he didn't want to talk to me.

He's telling me, "That's the reason," or I gave him short answers when he did decide to text, so that's why he didn't call. I didn't want him to talk to me. He thought it was being monitored. He still has never asked. I really, really, really don't get that. That seems to be a fundamental-no matter what Ivan is dealing with or whatever issue, that seems above and beyond. [00:10:03]

I don't get it. And part of me feels like I'm waiting for him to, I don't know...

THERAPIST: To what?

CLIENT: To be like the person I remember dating? That sounds harsh or it sounds dramatic, but to soften and I guess I would expect him to break down and cry and apologize and explain and talk about it and ask me to forgive him and voice some kind of desire, at least, for a plan or anything.

It almost feels like he's not talking, he's not anything, because it feels like he wants me to keep going down this road. He really said, in couples' therapy, "You wanted this. You wanted to be separated. [00:11:00] You've told me you couldn't put up with this." I can't ever begin to express how hurtful and how unfair I feel that is, because I didn't want him to do these things. I don't want to feel the way I feel. I don't want to be going through a separation. I don't want any of this, but you can't treat someone however you want and then say, "Well, you want to be separated."

He told me he's hurt.

THERAPIST: That's true.

What Dr. Farrow (ph) reports with his experience, and Dr. Bourd (sp) says is that he feels like he can never get it right by you. And I say that not to say, "Okay, so you have to come (inaudible at 00:11:53) with him," but to share how far apart you guys are right now in your understanding of what's happening, do you know what I mean? [00:12:03]

You're waiting for him to apologize for the things he's done, and he feels like he's bent over backwards, trying to do what you need him to do, and that it's never good enough.

He's in a place, it sounds like, where to apologize one more time or to say, yet again, how bad he is and again, I'm not saying this as fact but that's where he is in his mind right now. He's tired of trying to constantly do better and constantly be not-enough in your eyes.

How do you get around that? Because he isn't enough, in your eyes, in a way, right? I mean, it's not okay, what he did. And that's not just in your eyes, it's not okay. But he's in a place where he's feeling like it's yet another person telling him how much he's not okay. He can't find his way through, it sounds like, to take ownership of his part. [00:13:04]

And then maybe you'd meet and say, "Well, I'm sorry about," if there's any part that's yours, to talk about that part and come closer together. It really sounds like you're back in opposite corners, again.

I hear you, Ramona, that this is almost unbelievable. How did we get here?

CLIENT: No, it's completely unbelievable. I don't even know how to respond to what you just said. I told Dr. Farrow, I feel like some things in our relationship-it's absolutely a two-way street and we both play a part.

But then there are some things that Ivan has done that have totally-that I didn't even know that he was doing. And I really don't think it's my fault that he did some of-I really hate saying, in couples' therapy, and being almost reprimanded. I don't have anything to apologize for in that situation. [00:14:00]

THERAPIST: I agree with you.

CLIENT: But it doesn't... Then I feel responsible, when he says things like, "Well, you wanted to separate." When I realized if I had been agreeing to have sex with him, regardless of what he was doing, that he wouldn't have assaulted me. He wouldn't be nasty to me now. He wouldn't be moving out...

THERAPIST: Ramona. Ramona. You're actually sounding like an abused child right now. That's your own trauma talking (crosstalk at 00:14:28)

CLIENT: But it's true.

THERAPIST: That's your own trauma talking. It's actually not true. (crosstalk at 00:14:32)

CLIENT: If that had been happening, he wouldn't have done this. I'm not saying that what he did was excusable.

THERAPIST: It's as though you could somehow change what's inside him, if only you were different. And that's a fantasy. That's the fantasy you had even as a little girl in your family. "If only I were different, I could change my mother's depression," or, "I could change why my father never comes home to the house." You are not responsible for what Ivan did to you. [00:15:03] For the lying, for assaulting you.

He is responsible for saying, "Well, this is what you want." He's doing that. He's withdrawing actively from the marriage, maybe even more so than you are, at this point. Yes, you've thought about it. Yes, there's a part of you that's wished for this. There's another part of you that's been terrified of this and wants to keep working on it.

He's putting it all inside you, and then taking no ownership of it. That's not true. He's doing that. He's the one backing away. He's the one that's (inaudible at 00:15:35) right now.

CLIENT: But I don't think it's fair to do something like this, and then have the attitude of, "Nothing I do is good enough."

THERAPIST: I agree.

CLIENT: It's the biggest, most-cowardly response I think there could be.

THERAPIST: I agree.

CLIENT: I'm not saying that nothing is good enough, but you can't misrepresent yourself and give your partner reason to have all these expectations, and then say, "Just kidding!" over a year into the marriage. [00:16:01] "Just kidding, none of that's true. That's not who I am," and think that it's all going to be okay.

I think back on these two years and all the issues he's had and all the stuff. I don't want to fall into the all-or-nothing thinking, but I'm thinking I'm not getting what I want out of this relationship.

THERAPIST: You've been very unhappy for a very long time, Ramona.

CLIENT: But is it my fault for being so critical and nothing's ever good enough? I don't know.

THERAPIST: You've been working on that. You've been working on that. You have worked on that. You've done things like decide not to be critical, exactly as you were prescribed to do from work (ph): keep your mouth shut, see what he does. You've repeatedly said to me, "He doesn't do it. He might do it for a week and then he stops doing it." So then you're left with a pile of dirty laundry on Sunday night and no clothes to wear. [00:17:00]

You've worked on this. Then when I say, "Have you tried this? Have you tried this?" You keep saying and I've said to you repeatedly, "Yeah, we've done that. We tried that. We talked about that in couples' therapy." You've worked a lot on your communication in couples' therapy. You have kept your mouth shut about a number of things, right? It hasn't changed the things that are hurting you.

CLIENT: I don't know what to do. I really need some help. I don't know what to do at all. There are some days when I think I can find a way to deal with this, if this is how this is going to end and if he's going to continue to treat me like this. Then there are other days when I really desperately... my thinking can change so quickly and I desperately want him to apologize. I almost literally have this thought of sitting on the couch with him and being comforted by him and him... I don't know. [00:18:02] Or just forgetting that it all happened.

(pause)

THERAPIST: The terror of not being together, of being alone, of facing what that means, makes you also then want to just get him back and (inaudible at 00:18:19) comfort of sitting just (inaudible at 00:18:21) sitting on the couch and being back on the same page.

Here's the (inaudible at 00:18:26), Ramona: it doesn't sound like he's going to apologize any time soon.

CLIENT: He's like, "I have apologized."

THERAPIST: Right, and not in a way even if he said the words, "Well, sorry," right? not in a way that you feel is sufficient, right?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: It doesn't sound like he's working up the guts to start having that kind of conversation with you anytime soon, at least. I'm not saying (inaudible at 00:18:54) year down the line, he will have done his own work and realized and come to a place where he realizes this. [00:19:00]

Am I wrong? Do you feel like that's coming, or you're waiting on a fantasy?

CLIENT: I don't know. [crying] I'm sorry. I really don't know what's going on, and I really don't want to stay with him, because the wrong reasons; nor do I want to leave for the wrong reasons. I want to make sure that whatever I do, that I can be at peace with it.

THERAPIST: Yeah, that makes sense.

CLIENT: I'm going to have to live with this decision for a long time. This sounds horrible, but I don't want to stay with him and go through the separation and try to get back together, and have something like this happen again and the same type of stuff keep happening and go through this (inaudible at 00:19:45), I can't. I can't keep doing this.

THERAPIST: It's been a long time you have been doing this.

CLIENT: He's not a horrible person. Literally, just over two months ago, we had our anniversary. [00:20:02] He took me to dinner. We couldn't afford to go to dinner, we went to dinner anyway. And he did some really nice things for me. It was really, really nice.

That month was also my birthday. Past couple years, he hasn't done anything. This year, he really did and he planned way in advance. He did something so nice and (inaudible at 00:20:29)... I don't know what happened. I don't understand how he can give me a ticket, with my sister, to go see a concert, and then two months later, he's doing this and saying he'll move out as soon as he can.

I can't believe how mean-this is not... I don't get it.

THERAPIST: Where, in the session with Dr. Farrow, where did the idea come from that you really need to separate? [00:21:05] Was he leading that? Were you leading that? Was she leading that?

CLIENT: I think she was. Ivan doesn't ever initiate talking in the session, so I always do. She asked where things were, what was going on, and I said things have been really difficult and I was trying to figure out what to do or where we should go from here. I left the conversation open.

She said a couple times we really needed to separate. She said two people can't live together when they're both in so much pain, it's really toxic. I wasn't able to really be receptive to that, because I feel like she's very sympathetic towards him and not so much towards me.

Again, I didn't feel like we were coming into couples' session the way a typical session might be, where we each talk about-or what I would imagine a normal couples' session would be, where two people talk about their parts of what's going on. [00:22:03]

I don't know. I wasn't able to hear, "This is so painful for Ivan," because I feel like that's what he always tells me, so difficult for them. So, then don't assault your wife! I'm sorry, I know that's not helpful. [crying]

THERAPIST: She also said that you (inaudible at 00:22:27) she didn't ever say that what he did was wrong or bad. She feels like she said that to you over and over again. I'm trying to-also, she said she's very clear this is horrible that he did this. And that she says she's said it.

So there's some discrepancy, too, about what you're experiencing from her and what she thinks-I don't even know what the answer is, because I'm not there. And then that that would only be my perception, but I wonder-maybe you haven't heard it enough or didn't feel so definitive, what she said? [00:23:00]

CLIENT: I don't know if it even matters anymore, but I heard her say several times that when she had spent a whole session talking about physical intimacy, that she wasn't advocating anything like this.

She kept saying that, and I interpreted that as she wanted to make sure that she was clear that she wasn't at-fault for this, nor did she cause it or anything like that.

That felt different to me, from saying to Ivan, "You can't do this to her." Even the other things, I feel like she has said so many times that I need to not be critical, I need to not ask him to do stuff and all this. Why can't she say this is petty, maybe, but why can't she say to Ivan, "You can't do that to your wife?" or, "You need to be honest with your wife. You need to be respectful." Why can't that be just as valid as, "You need to stop criticizing your husband."

I do so much of the talking and Ivan sure as heck doesn't bring up his own stuff in the session, usually. [00:24:06] I don't know. I feel like I'm being held accountable, and I don't feel like anyone's holding him.

THERAPIST: When she first described what happened to Dr. Bourd and me in this e-mail, she called it an assault and said that Ivan assaulted you. "Horrible session. Guess what happened. He assaulted his wife." She was very clear. She said, "I assessed (ph) for safety and was worried about whether she even felt safe in the home anymore."

It sounds like even maybe if that's being given some lip service or some other element you've been picking up, it feels like she just feels these things through Ivan's eyes than yours. It's not in the middle. Her job is to be in the middle, right? I get to hear through your eyes. Dr. Bourd gets to hear from his eyes. But her job is to be in the middle. It sounds like you don't feel like she's been in the middle.

CLIENT: I guess I have a problem with that not being said. [00:25:01] And I have problem with... I know it's not fair. I'm sure that Ivan is in pain, but I really had a problem with, "You're both in so much pain. This is so difficult for both of you." I was not in a place where I could hear that. I don't think I am, even still. I'm sure it's painful for him, but-

THERAPIST: You mean, then, after that incident, or now, about the, "You're both in pain in the marriage"? You mean, after he assaulted you?

CLIENT: Yeah! She said this last session, "This is so painful for both of you."

THERAPIST: Yeah. It didn't feel like it honored that you were the victim.

CLIENT: I'm sure it is painful for him, but I really don't-this is what he does, this is so typical. He takes this attitude of it's so horrible, so difficult for him.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. I get it, I get it. It's not that that you're both in pain isn't true a lot of the time, it maybe has a place. But in the incident where he actually did something is that absolutely his fault, it's not the time and the place to be saying that, right? It's not on (inaudible at 00:25:59) being in reality, then, but he did this.

No matter what was going inside you around sexuality, sexual behavior, sexual intimacy, this is not okay that this was done. It's an assault. You needed to hear that and didn't hear it with clarity. He didn't hear it with clarity. My guess is he needed to hear that, too. He was wanting to hear that. He, himself, called it molesting. He was prepared to hear where the line is that he shouldn't have crossed and have someone hold him accountable. His parents never held him accountable.

CLIENT: But then, if he wants that, why doesn't he want to have a discussion and why doesn't he want to be apologetic? The only form of apology has been now, he's been taking out the trash and doing the laundry without me saying a word. That's the only thing.

He's unbelievable when he's talking to me. I don't understand. [00:27:00]

THERAPIST: Ramona, this is one of those sessions that's going to end in seven minutes and I know you're going to feel frustrated and there's not... If only there was something I could say to you to make this less painful right now, or less confusing. I wonder what it is you want to do today. Where are you and what feels right and protective of you today?

CLIENT: I don't know. [crying] I feel really... He's moving out and I don't know how to feel or deal with that.

THERAPIST: He is definitely moving out?

CLIENT: That what he says. Who knows what that means? But I told him that he can't continue to stay and talk to me like that. So I think, to him, that means he needs to leave soon. I don't think...

THERAPIST: This is what's so horrible, I think, for you, is you hoped and expected, even if you said something like that and laid down an ultimatum, that he would then stop talking to you like that, instead of saying, "Okay, well then, I'm moving out." [00:28:07]

CLIENT: I asked him if he's refusing to talk to me, because I tried to talk to him yesterday, he's silent. Then he's like, "Yes, I am."

THERAPIST: "Yes, I am-"?

CLIENT: "Refusing to talk to you!"

THERAPIST: Okay. Why?

CLIENT: He said he needs time to process. Which is what he usually says after one of these big... It's been almost a month since he last did it not since the first time, even! I'm sorry, you can't do something like that and then say, "I can't talk about it." Maybe I need to process. This is so difficult for me.

THERAPIST: And then shut you up. I mean, it's cruel. It's cruel.

CLIENT: And dealing with that, and dealing with insurance. I'm trying to apply to jobs. I have an interview this week. I have a bunch of volunteer stuff today. [00:29:01] I'm [putting off for] (ph) a leasing agent, because I can't renew the lease right now. I have no clue what I'm... It sounds like Ivan is more or less saying I need to find my own place.

It's a lot all at once.

THERAPIST: Do you feel like it's too fast? Do you wish you could say to him, "Ivan, I don't want you to move out. I would like to keep talking this through together and actually have some more conversation around (inaudible at 00:29:33) then shutting me out." Is that were you are?

CLIENT: I've said that. I've said, "We need to talk about this, we need to talk."

THERAPIST: And what does he do?

CLIENT: He stays out until midnight. He won't.

THERAPIST: What if you say, "I want to talk to you and I don't want you to move out." Instead of, "We need to." One's a command and demand, and one is, "I really miss you and I want to talk to you." One's an invitation. Do you know what I mean? [00:30:00]

CLIENT: I do.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:30:00) do the same thing?

CLIENT: I don't know. He's sleeping in the living-the living room has become his room. I don't even-

THERAPIST: That's a really (inaudible at 00:30:10). You've never even gone through with processing it, assault.

CLIENT: No!

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: He still hasn't even asked how I feel about it. There's no basic respect. I don't know what to do. I have no clue.

THERAPIST: How would you feel if you separated?

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: Is there relief?

CLIENT: Maybe, in part.

THERAPIST: Yeah, but there's also terror.

CLIENT: It feels devastating.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

(pause)

[00:31:00]

THERAPIST: One thing to know, as you're thinking about this and feeling your way through what you want to do, Ramona, is that separation is not permanent. It's totally undoable, and you wouldn't be the first or last married couple who separated for a time to try to (inaudible at 00:31:46) some things out separately who then got divorced, or who then got back together and actually had a better marriage together after the period of separation. It's quite common. [00:32:00]

CLIENT: I guess it doesn't feel like he's anywhere close to wanting to even talk about it, let alone make any effort.

THERAPIST: Which might mean something. I mean, that's what I think is devastating, that he's not where you wanted him to be. He's not rising to the challenge of trying to push through the hurt and talk to you about this. He's just not showing up in the marriage.

CLIENT: He said, at the end of the separation, if we discover that we can't live without each other that then we should get back together, and he hopes that's what happens.

(pause)

THERAPIST: You're shaking your head like, "Oof. We can't get there unless we start talking" (crosstalk at 00:32:53)

CLIENT: You can't do what you did and then say, "Oh, if we can't live without-" Of course, I could live without Ivan. [00:33:00]

I don't know. It feels really unfair to force someone into that situation and abandon them to deal with it.

(pause)

THERAPIST: I worry for you. The feeling this way in the marriage, day after day after day after day. It's been a long time of your being in a tremendous amount of pain, Ramona. [00:34:02] Something is not (inaudible at 00:34:06) working.

And I get to hear your side, so it's hard for me not to have an opinion about the things he's been doing to you. And it feels like-I mean, I'm listening constantly for where you might be misunderstanding something, do you know what I mean? It doesn't read that way along certain of these incidents and episodes where he's not taking accountability and not rising to the challenge. He's just not there yet in his own work.

And you've been waiting a long time. There have been some improvements with some of the work. I think he's not exactly where he was. There are some things that start to change, but (inaudible at 00:34:57) if they've been enough, quick enough (inaudible at 00:35:01).

And the way he's reacting now to all of this, that's sort of a time where you hoped he would be taking even more accountability, right? (inaudible at 00:35:10) would his progress would start to take off even more. It's more like it sounds like he's regressing back into old ways.

CLIENT: I'm so confused. He was making progress, and maybe it wasn't enough. Because, quite frankly, it wasn't what he led me to believe he was at two years ago. But it's one thing to not be making progress, or not enough, or not enough fast enough, but it's another to do what he did. I don't even know.

THERAPIST: It's very disturbing, (inaudible at 00:35:49), Ramona. It's unusual behavior. It's an assault.

CLIENT: I don't understand. I really, really, really, really don't understand. And I don't want to overreact and I don't want to... I really don't understand. [00:36:03] I don't know if he's abusive, I don't know...

THERAPIST: It's very disturbing behavior, and it is an episode of abusing you. It's not okay, what he did. It's not typical behavior. It is not what should be done in any realm of healthy relationship if you're not having sex.

I see a lot of (inaudible at 00:36:31) couples who haven't had sex for a year. They're in the middle of trying to figure out what to (inaudible at 00:36:36), they're not assaulting each other sexually.

CLIENT: Why, then?

THERAPIST: I don't know, exactly. But I can come up with theories about it. Even if I was sitting with him, we could come up with theories trying to understand. And some of them would probably be true and some of them probably not true. I think that's for him to figure out, over time, what this was in him that came out in this way, that was so destructive to you and so destructive to the two of you as a couple. [00:37:00]

I just want you to know that I am very, very clear in my mind that this was really, really not okay, what he did. It really is an abusive thing. And it doesn't mean all of what's happening in the relationship is all his fault, I don't think that's true at all. There are pieces that are yours, there are pieces that are his, and then there are things that he's done that are very, very clearly wrong and destructive behaviors. It's not a he-said/she-said issue about it, do you know what I mean? It's very clear. This is not okay.

And it's a big deal. It would take a lot of processing and working through for the two of you, emotional understanding each other to figure your way through (inaudible at 00:37:46) that happened and for you to feel safe again, so that it doesn't keep happening.

I think that's what's so disturbing about where you are. He did that and you're getting less (inaudible at 00:37:57) rather than more. It doesn't make you feel very hopeful right now. [00:38:01]

As one outsider, I can't tell you what to do, Ramona. You're the one living (inaudible at 00:38:10) the marriage. What I can tell you is what I observe in you and witness that with you and witness what's actually happening. Witness that you've been very unhappy for a very long time in this marriage. Witness that I can understand a break might give you both some breathing room. And who knows what work he does in the next year? Maybe you have contact and you get your old Ivan back. And then we know what you need to hear in order for you to feel safe and like the relationship is worth something to you. And if you don't see it, you don't see it. It's not for you.

I do feel protective of you, clawing tooth and nail trying to get yourself back into a relationship that's going to destroy you if it doesn't turn out to be something different. [00:39:02] Do you know what I mean?

I think what's really hard about today is this decision about your place, (inaudible at 00:39:14) tough.

But nothing's permanent today, that's one thing you want to know. Even if he's not processing with you, I'm here. And we will keep processing how you're feeling, how every step of the way, what it feels like if you give up the lease today and you decide you're going to live somewhere else. It doesn't mean you can't live together in the future, right? Couples go over to each other's houses. If you started to get back together, you could get a place in a year. If you kept the place today, you might need some financial help. I don't know if that would mean talking to your parents and seeing if they could help pitch in on the rent. This is going to be your call.

But it's not permanent. Whatever it is, it's not permanent until you're actually filing a legal document in a court. And even then, it's not permanent. [00:40:00]

Give yourself time to feel what it is you're feeling and trust what's inside. And I'm here, okay?

I am probably going to have an opening Friday. I don't know for sure, but I'm almost positive I (inaudible at 00:40:20) something Friday mid-morning. Is there any chance you'd want to do that? It seems like a good idea to me.

CLIENT: [laughs] (inaudible at 00:40:28)

THERAPIST: So I will drop you an e-mail as soon as I know exactly what the time it's (inaudible at 00:40:32). It's possible it's something either [9:00, 10:00-ish, or 10:00] (ph). Later would be better?

CLIENT: No, I mean it doesn't matter. I'm assuming Labor Day, you're not here.

THERAPIST: Labor Day, I'm not here. So all the more...

CLIENT: So there's nothing next week, is that...?

THERAPIST: Let's find something else. We'll find something else.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Okay? I'll e-mail that (inaudible at 00:40:53) to you.

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