TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: So yes, there's something settled with the insurance (crosstalk at 00:00:07).

CLIENT: Yeah, completely.

THERAPIST: That we'll work on year round.

CLIENT: We'll start on September 1.

THERAPIST: All right.

CLIENT: He told me he couldn't tell me.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's very common.

CLIENT: But I told him the other insurance had been able to, and he told me that they had actually joined earlier in the year, so he would try again.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But I think at this point, since I have a policy, I can call customer service soon.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's what I've done before.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And if even if it's the minimum of what-the least that I know about out there right now, we'll still make that work, so I think we're in the clear.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. Let's hope!

THERAPIST: I'd hate to keep-

CLIENT: $90 plus. I would hope it would pay at least $100.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So...

THERAPIST: Yeah. The insurance was able to pay $72 right now.

CLIENT: [Oh, wow] (ph).

THERAPIST: So they pay 80% of $93 or something like that. So if we're assuming at the least it's that, we'll be good, so you don't need to worry about keeping (inaudible at 00:01:03) about that. [00:01:05]

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: [Take that] (ph) off your list.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: We'll just-

CLIENT: I was really (crosstalk at 00:01:08).

THERAPIST: Something off your list, at least, right now.

CLIENT: [laughs] Yes, yes!

THERAPIST: So where are you? How are you? What's on your mind?

CLIENT: [sighs] Well, I did the-you said write down your feelings in the context, so I did that.

THERAPIST: Yes. Okay, great.

CLIENT: And [I've done] (ph) some journaling, too.

THERAPIST: Great.

CLIENT: So...

THERAPIST: Do you want to start with-

CLIENT: It's totally up to you.

THERAPIST: What's the (inaudible at 00:01:33) for you? Where are you?

CLIENT: The reason I was looking for something else is because things were overwhelmingly really, really bad. I can't be sobbing every day. So that's been the case, but...

See, yesterday, I guess I felt like things-yesterday I had an okay day. Some things came together. [00:02:00] My insurance plan; my leasing agent, she got back to me and said, "That's fine, we can have that conversation whenever you're ready," about renewal or not.

THERAPIST: In other words, that you have some more (crosstalk at 00:02:12) don't have to tell her.

CLIENT: I have some more time. I mean, I'll still pay a month's rent if I have to leave, but... So that was taken care of, and I (crosstalk at 00:02:21).

THERAPIST: She's going to let you do month by month, you mean?

CLIENT: She said we could put off the renewal discussion.

THERAPIST: For a month.

CLIENT: For a while.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Because October 26th is the deadline for renewal.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But the deadline is passed for letting her know that I'm not renewing, so if I have to make that decision, I'll have to pay a penalty.

THERAPIST: Got it. Pay a month.

CLIENT: But if I had, I would have to pay the penalty, anyway, so at least I have a little more time. And I could go on a month to month basis, if I had to, so that's something off.

THERAPIST: Very helpful, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: And I had two job interviews this week, so I felt like that was something.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: And someone that I was setting [an informational] (ph) up with me next week got back to me and said, "Actually, now I've heard of this study coordinator job. [00:03:04] Let's talk about that next week," and we set up a meeting, so that's (crosstalk at 00:03:07).

THERAPIST: Wow, still some possibilities!

CLIENT: No, I mean, [laughs] there should be! I've done a lot of applications, but... So I'll hear about second interviews I guess next week.

And there's another contact who is-he was pretty interested in me taking the study coordinator position, but he was waiting on funding for his study.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So that's been out of his hands, but he's like, "Get back to me the beginning of September," so next week hopefully we can talk again.

So some movement on the jobs; I'm continuing my job workshop every week. She was on vacation for a bit, but now that's happening again, so that's been helpful.

THERAPIST: Yeah. So getting a few things, feeling a little better, I'm sure just totally helps the overall picture (crosstalk at 00:03:57).

CLIENT: Even that tiny, tiny-I mean, that's nothing concrete, but that tiny bit was a big... [00:04:01]

THERAPIST: It's like having hope again.

CLIENT: Yeah, it is. So that's something. And I talked to the Assistant Dean who does the workshops, I talked to her. I said, "I need to be making money. I feel like I'm at that point." She thinks that I'm close to getting a job with the number of outpatients (ph) I've done, the interviews... Because I have a pretty good ratio, interviews to applications.

THERAPIST: Sounds like it.

CLIENT: Because in the scheme of things, I haven't done that many.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So it's been a good ratio, so she thinks I should be fairly close to getting something. But I told her it could be a week, it could be another few weeks, I have no way-so we talked about a temp agency, a staffing agency...

THERAPIST: Uh-huh!

CLIENT: ...that I could go to. [sighs] So that was something.

THERAPIST: And those, you can pick up one-week jobs, even, (crosstalk at 00:04:53).

CLIENT: Right, and they know I'm leaving, so...

THERAPIST: Even a day job! Yeah, yeah, you can decide if you want to take something or not take something, but [they do] (ph) really short-term stuff. [00:05:02]

CLIENT: Yeah, and I think I could...

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:05:04) income.

CLIENT: ...just do days a time, which is good, since I have volunteer days. So, yeah, it's a little bit... Little bit of something.

THERAPIST: Some movement. And also some space to keep-not to feel like you're under the gun about insurance, not to be under the gun about your apartment.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's a little-yeah.

THERAPIST: Just to have some time more to be figuring out what you want to do, yeah.

Does what you wrote down, then, feel less relevant now, because it was-no, it doesn't. Okay. [laughs] Do you want to go there, then?

CLIENT: I need something that's related to the jobs, which I mean... But most of it's not.

THERAPIST: Let's get into it, then.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: So the feelings I came up with were disbelief like an overwhelming sadness or hopelessness; shame or ambivalence; desperation; denial; [laughs] anxiety; and confusion. [00:06:02] And I didn't include it, but agitation goes with maybe some of the sadness, feeling really agitated.

THERAPIST: And are these feelings sort of pervasive throughout a day right now, for you like they're always with you?

CLIENT: They weren't yesterday, which I guess is part of what-I don't know, I had some space, but...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Maybe they're more situational...

THERAPIST: Yeah, okay.

CLIENT: ...to some extent? But there are times when I'm not able to sleep through the night, and I start crying, and I... So it's not always in the midst of something.

THERAPIST: So what's the context? Let's go into the context of where these feelings are really strong. I mean, one of the things I could imagine is that they could be simmering at a two or a three or [build up] (ph) to five and four as your day's going on, but that there might be a [context or situation] (ph) where all of the sudden they're back up to an eight or a nine. [00:07:04]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And that's the kind of unlivable place where you get really overwhelmed and we want to figure out what's happening that gets them there.

CLIENT: I think that's pretty accurate.

So, disbelief that we still haven't had that conversation. Ivan recently told me that this is a mutual thing, that we both have things to work on. And he pointed out that my stress levels and anxiety were unhealthy. So I guess I felt disbelief in that.

Sadness: thinking about positive memories with Ivan, he [sic] wrote, "Especially our wedding." Hearing anger or defensiveness from Ivan, like the opposite of an apologetic tone, I feel really sad when I feel like I'm hearing that. Thinking about the violation, thinking about what he did, I feel really sad. [00:08:05]

Thinking about how hard I-I mean, it's in my perception and I own that, but thinking how hard I think I've been working not just on the marriage, but in the past couple years. I've done a lot and worked really hard. And how far this has set us back, even if it felt we were making-I felt like I was doing a lot, but I felt like we were making some progress as a couple. Now I feel like the grad school thing is [laughs] that's not even an issue! I know it's relative, but it feels like it's set us so far, far back. Feeling really fundamentally disrespected, I feel really sad about that.

Thinking I had to the end of November, she had suggested that-at least a month Dr. Farrow (sp?) at least a month, up to maybe three months, and that would put us at the end of November. And I know it's silly, and I don't know why some of these little things or these little memories make it so, I don't know, so emotional. [00:09:08] But that's right after Thanksgiving and that's usually when we would get a Christmas tree.

I know that's silly. You don't get upset because you're separating and because (inaudible at 00:09:18) Christmas tree, but I guess it's representative of so much more to me. So I get that that's not a rational [laughs]...

THERAPIST: Ramona, there's that (inaudible at 00:09:28) again! It seems so understandable to have something symbolic. That Christmas for people or whatever it is the holiday people celebrate, especially Christmas in Christianity it is this incredibly loving, connected memory for a lot of people, where you share tradition together and come together in a giving and-I mean, why would that not bring up a lot of feeling for you?

CLIENT: I think it's more that it's Ivan and I never lived together, so since we got married, we had our own tree in our own little apartment for the first time. [00:10:04] And it's, I don't know, it's always tradition with my family and now it's our own and I don't know.

So anyway! [laughs]

Shame: I'm thinking about it and not telling my friends, I feel kind of ashamed. One of my friends has a birthday today, and so we were all going to get together at a friend's apartment to celebrate. And I am saying that Ivan is working today. And he is working today, but he gets off in time that he could go. I haven't told any of my friends here anything about what's going on, so it feels like I'm lying. And it feels like... [sighs] I feel ashamed of what happened, because I feel like I couldn't tell them. Or what if they wouldn't understand? Or what if... So that's some shame and some ambivalence, I guess.

Desperation: I feel like there's been a lot of coaxing him to talk; coaxing him to apologize; coaxing him to take accountability; waiting for some kind of big, grand, last ditch effort, almost something to turn it around. [00:11:10] And I've definitely been coaxing a lot for that, and I know I need to stop doing that. That's not healthy and it's not helpful.

And even trying to force interactions, Ivan has been staying out really late, not talking, not looking at me, trying to-I guess I don't know what he's trying to do, but it seems that he's avoiding me, pretty clearly. And I'll try to, "When are you getting back?" Or I'll try to initiate conversation. I feel desperate.

Denial: yesterday, he went to look at an apartment, and I knew we were talking about this, I knew this is going to happen, but it was-I felt, almost inside me, like, "Why are you going to look at an apartment?" This is so bizarre. It's so surreal. [00:12:00] Especially, maybe, since there isn't discussion around it. So I ended up asking him last night about it, but I don't think he would have said anything so some denial.

And I think I'm almost trying to deny what happened, the whole actual situation. I don't want to talk about. It's now been a month, it's been over a month, and we still haven't had that big conversation. And now it's getting to the point where it has, with some other things, are we going to have that anymore? Or do I need to move on? Part of me wants to move on.

THERAPIST: Yeah. But there's another part of you that wishes he would somehow come through with having a conversation, (inaudible at 00:12:50) to, even that some days, the hope's getting smaller and smaller and smaller, that he'll show you some things or come through in the end that makes you feel like, "Okay, we could stay and keep working on this right now." [00:13:02]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. And I still have-I know it's very bizarre, but I still have this fantasy of him almost being the one to comfort me, almost like a-I've heard of a rescue fantasy, almost. It's weird that I'm sleeping in the bedroom and he's still out on the couch. And sometimes I feel bad. And I want to say, "You can sleep in the bed," even though I don't particularly feel comfortable with that. But I want to push it.

THERAPIST: You want to pretend this didn't happen (crosstalk at 00:13:37).

CLIENT: Because if we're not going to deal with it, how am I supposed to...? So there's some denial! [laughs]

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:13:43), yeah. And also, Ramona, I think you're terrified of losing him. As much as there are all these other things, that part of you that's terrified of what this means on so many different levels, it's scrambling right now. "Maybe if I just pretend none of this ever happened, we can go back to how things were." [00:14:01]

That feels like the child part. That's kind of what you did. That's what you had to do, was sort of cover up for your parents foibles (ph) as best you can. Cover up for all the things, their deficits, to try to pretend it wasn't really happening, to make it be in a way like the fantasy [of yet] (ph) you were getting something that you weren't getting.

And I'm worried for you, with that strategy. Because I think that you will know inside yourself what happened. You can't get it away fully for good. And I think it will come back inside and haunt you. I think you know too much, now.

That's not to say I think you and Ivan are going to have to separate and get divorced. I don't know what's going to happen with that. But I don't know that getting back together is going happen through pretending none of this happened.

CLIENT: I'm worried it won't happen through...

THERAPIST: Any other way. You are worried about that.

CLIENT: I am. And I am also trying to reach a point, and it's a constant-I can convince myself one way just as easily as the other that... [00:15:10] There's the, "How can we work on this, what ways would be helpful or healthy?" or, "What can we do?" And then there's the, "Should we?" "Should we be working on this?"

And I think that's a really tough question, because the answer in my mind has always been, "Yes." But I wonder if there is a point at which that's actually-I don't know. I wish it was black and white.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Is your gut telling you something about that question, "Should we?" (inaudible at 00:15:44)

CLIENT: Part of me thinks that we shouldn't. Part of me looks back on these past two years and sees more than even the really big things, sees more than that, and a lot of struggles. [sighs]

I was struck last session, you said I'd been unhappy in my marriage for a really long time. [00:16:05] And you wouldn't think, given what I've been saying in these sessions and given what I've been, that that would be-

THERAPIST: Surprising (crosstalk at 00:16:11).

CLIENT: Right! You would think I'd be the one saying that. But it was. And yesterday, I went to journal and I looked back at some of my old entries months old a lot of the same stuff. Very unhappy very critical, but also very unhappy, and I wonder if this isn't just-it's not an isolated thing. So I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. If it were only this incident but things were otherwise going along okay, that would be a different story. Things have not been okay and not been okay. And you're working on it. You guys have been working-I think he's been working as hard as he can, too. But it hasn't brought you together enough to feel like it's more okay than not, these days. [0:17:06] And then this happens.

Not to mention that you already haven't been feeling safe or trusting after everything with his schooling, and that that never got explored; it's sort of just layer upon layer upon layer upon layer upon layer right now.

Your gut sounds like it knows something. It's feeling something about this. But it's also really [scary in] (ph) what it's feeling. And I think a lot of-in some ways, to summarize, all of these different thoughts, they all converge on trying to take [him in] (ph) a reality where things are-that this is really happening. [00:18:03] And that they might really be that you've been unhappy for a very long time; I think that's even hard to take. You just [sort of] (ph) know that it's hard. You almost don't want that to be tree.

CLIENT: I don't, but I also don't know if it's valid. I do think it's okay to say you're not unhappy, but what if that's been just as much my fault?

THERAPIST: So it's a really important question. What if one of the reasons you've been unhappy, what if one of the primary reasons is because you're going to be unhappy with just about any person you'd [be with] (ph), are you going to be critical, angry at that person?

That's a kind of question that I think the reason why separation might be valuable for both of you is then you get to know a little more, when you're apart, what-if you start to look at someone else, then, and say, "What would I feel towards this person?" [00:19:02] Could you walk yourself through, imagining you're in a relationship, imagining you're living together, and he doesn't clean the house the way you want him to clean it, either even though he has a better job or more ambition in a certain way.

As you start to try on things for size, it could be that you say, "Oh, this would come up anywhere for me. This is somewhat my stuff." That might allow you to then go back to the relationship, even more working through and owning your own part.

My hope would be for Ivan, the same thing would happen to him. Like, "Oh, wow, if I go date somebody else, that person's going to be validly critical of I'm working at Starbucks," and, "Do I want to do anything else with my life?" And that, "I don't talk to them about anything." And that, "I avoid every time there's a problem." Or, "That person's going to be critical if I assault that person in the middle of the night." But (ph) that's him. [00:20:01] There are things he's doing that are actually problematic and will be problematic for him in a future relationship.

CLIENT: And what if it's both?

THERAPIST: My guess is, Ramona, that it's some of both. And I say that not just because of-in your particular situation. It always is both, when couples are trying to negotiate, "Is this the right relationship for me or not?"

So I would anticipate for you that you will have some-you will feel critical of any partner you're with. And that's more of us to understand what's underlying the criticism.

I think, for example, you're incredibly critical of yourself. That is the starting point. And I think as we help you become less critical of yourself and more accepting of yourself as good enough, that a partner could have-you could feel the same towards a partner. As a human being, who has strengths and weaknesses and differences. [00:21:01]

What we don't know is how much Ivan is sort of the worst case scenario for you. Even though you might not be the worst case scenario for somebody else, but does it-would you feel better, less critical, for the real reasons? That someone else who had goal directedness through a higher degree or something right now, who didn't lie to you about things, would that feel like, "Okay. Now I start to know. I feel less critical. And now when I know I'm getting, that must be my stuff." So that they are born and [working in place] (ph) with each other.

This is the central question that people are considering, if they're being really thoughtful about the idea of breaking up, separating, getting divorced. It's dangerous when you have a fantasy that, "Oh, this would never happen with someone else. I would never feel these feelings." That's a fantasy for every person. Not just you because you're critical. [00:22:00] Every single person, the thing they're irritated with in their current partner guess what. They would feel that towards somebody else, too, because half of that is something going on inside themselves.

But there are partners who really draw that out in us, and there are partners who draw it out a little bit. And that, I think, is what you're trying to figure out with Ivan.

There may also be ways that the things that you loved about him when you first got married, that you appreciated, that balanced you out. You might start missing those things. And you could even date someone else and say, "It's not the same. It's that I actually really like what Ivan provided me in this department," so that the loving feelings towards him would start to grow again. Again, same for him with somebody else or even just imagining somebody else!

Sometimes separation allows us to find why we wound the person to begin with, and start appreciating that in a different way that then allows you both to come back in (inaudible at 00:23:00).

The reason I keep saying "separation" is I think it's been hard for you guys to find that, doing the work together. Sometimes, it doesn't take separating to find that. You can really work through. But you've had enough setbacks and this one, of all. It's, ugh, after all this work you've been doing, he goes and does this? It's a setback. It's a pretty major setback. I think having some space might be the way to (inaudible at 00:23:40) realize whether they want to be together or not.

CLIENT: I don't know if I knew it was real (ph). It was necessary, before our last session with Dr. Farrow. But in this past week, it was absolutely necessary. In fact, there was a point, which I was like, "Do you think you could stay at a friend's tonight?" like another coworker. [00:24:00]

It's like I can't do this anymore, because I felt like he was-I don't know why, but for him, this is turning into so much anger so much anger. Really (inaudible at 00:24:12) anger.

That wouldn't make sense to me. You would think if anyone was mean (ph), [laughs] you would think it would be me, given the situation. But he's been incredibly angry, incredibly not apologetic.

Up until the other night, he came back to the apartment crying, pretty much. And it was for a number of reasons, but it still wasn't, "I really want to work on this." It was more-I texted and said, "When do you think you're going to be back home?" And the fact that I used the word "home," that made him sad.

He got a notice from the library that one of the marriage books that Dr. Farrow recommended was-that we had placed-we put on reserve, was finally available. [00:25:01]

I guess the fact that he set up this appointment to go see the apartment-but, again, I guess I wonder... People would be upset about that. But is he upset about that because that's upsetting, or is he upset about that because it's indicative of the marriage ending?

And he told me how he was clinging to he used the word "clinging," which I hate to the hope that we would get back together after this trial. That he wants to do couples' sessions during the separation, even though Dr. Farrow said, "No." It felt like desperation from him.

He did say, "I know this is my doing and I'm really sorry for what you're feeling." But I said, "Ivan, that's not the same as," maybe this is me being too critical and too harsh, or maybe it's a mix, but I said, "That's the not the same as-we still haven't had that conversation where you say, 'I am sorry for,' and really talk about what you did and offer an explanation and offer some kind of place to go with it. [00:26:09] Some kind of plan, a way to deal with it; that's not the same as saying, 'I'm sorry we're separating, I'm sorry you're feeling this.'"

THERAPIST: You feel, still, that the way he says it is kind of like, "Woe is me. I'm the cause of all of this"? Or was it a little more related?

CLIENT: I think it's both, and I think it was a little bit more related, but it's still not-

THERAPIST: Maybe not enough.

CLIENT: I don't think that accountability [is still] (ph) happen and I swear, if I [laughs] use the word "accountability" one more time, I think I'm going to scream.

But it still hasn't happened, and I think I let it go with some other big things. We eventually stopped talking for months! about the whole grad school thing, and the loan thing, and the... This one, I think-it might be unhealthy, but I think I need to hold on to that happening, because this is too big. [00:27:03]

THERAPIST: I also just wanted to say that I think him getting-all of the sudden, him getting angry-and you, in a way, have felt more vulnerable. You're the one, now that this is out there, that maybe you're going to do this separation, you're finding and sharing your vulnerable feelings: "When are you going to come home?" "What are we going to do from this point?" "Can we talk about it?" "Can we have a conversation?"

He's angry. He's been angry and critical and rageful [sic] all along.

CLIENT: No one has ever-he's the first to say. He will say he's frustrated. He will never, ever, ever say that he's angry. I don't get it.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And I think that that would maybe-again, I can't be there. I can't be a fly on the wall. But one of the things that I think got tricky in the couples' therapy is I don't know if his rage was getting named in the way. [00:28:04] The self-chastising, that there's really rage at you underneath that. It's actually really aggressive.

That never came out. Just as underneath your criticism, there's this incredible vulnerability and traumatized littler girl, who's just terrified. The critical exterior, the armor it's just the armor. Just as his, "It's all my fault, it's all my fault, it's all my fault," "I'm so ashamed," is his armor. It's a form of armor. And there are things he's feeling underneath that I think never got to come out. There may even be ways that that's-he knew they were there and doing what he did do you makes it louder that they're there. It had to get known that this is there.

CLIENT: It's not helpful, but I still really, really, really don't get what happened. [00:29:01] And I don't feel like I've ever really mentally processed it, really wrapped my head around it. I don't understand why, I don't-through what happened with my dad and his affairs, someone a counselor presented to me that there are reasons why people have affairs. At the time, I was furious with her because that was the last thing that I wanted to hear.

But it has occurred to me that-not that they're right or that it validates it or legitimizes it, but there are reasons why people do things like that.

THERAPIST: There are.

CLIENT: They're not just horrible people who do horrible things for no reason. It happens for a reason. And I want to know that reason.

THERAPIST: What does it do to know the reason?

CLIENT: I guess I feel entitled to it. Whether or not I should be, I feel entitled. I feel that for me to deal with it and move on and have peace with it whether or not we get divorced, stay together, whatever. I need to have some kind of conclusion, closing, whatever you would call it. [00:30:07] Which is especially hard without that conversation, but I at least want to know why it happened.

Although I come back [laughs] to what my sister said, which is: maybe it doesn't matter.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I think maybe one of the differences is that so [where she's true] (ph) and wanting to know what the reason is can also be valid that maybe it doesn't matter for what you do with it. That she saying, "Look, this is bad enough that there isn't a reason we could come up with that would make it feel okay that it happened." Like, "Oh, he did it for that! So then I'm going to stay right now," or, "I'm going to stay even if he doesn't explain it to me."

And yet, as part of the-we call it even post-mortem, when something has occurred that really changes a system (ph). Understanding why and understanding what happened and looking back, I think is important for people to put it in perspective. [00:31:07] I think that's a part of mourning it. I think that's a part of what will really allow you to move on. I think that's a part of what you, then, look out for in the future so that it doesn't happen again whether with Ivan or with someone else. No matter where that goes for you, I think that makes sense to [that you want to know] (ph).

That's something I think we'll continue to understand over time, and can talk about front and center when you really want to. I can't tell you exactly why, as his actual statement...

CLIENT: No, I know.

THERAPIST: ...because I don't know his mind nearly as mind as you do, even for one. And certainly, I don't-I'm not here [to be talking to him] (ph) every day.

I do know that Dr. Bourd (sp?) had some similar ideas that I shared with you. He and I were saying similar things about our guesses about some of the reasons why he did this, even though they're guesses. [00:32:02]

He said that Ivan-he just couldn't go there, in thinking about the reasons. [It's not like] (ph) he said, "Oh, I get it, that's why." He sort of heard them but couldn't take it up too much. So it's not like we've heard this confirmation from Ivan through Dr. Bourd, that he knows exactly why he did this.

I think the reasons why he did it are unconscious. I mean, it's going to take him time to figure that out and to come to terms with what it was in him that's very deep. And that came out in this very disturbed and disruptive way [to you] (ph).

CLIENT: Even in talking about it for a month, I feel like I'm overreacting. I feel like I'm creating a bigger problem than there is. I'm tired of continuing to say, "I don't know why it happened, I'm so upset about..." [00:33:01] I'm tired of it.

But I guess part of me feels, I don't know, I think it's healthy to let things go and not hold a grudge. But part of me feels like there is something in me that it's important to hold onto this until that conversation happens, or we decide to end the relationship. I just can't... I don't know.

THERAPIST: I think that's hell for you, Ramona. I mean, "Not holding a grudge," is an interesting expression. It sort of puts a grudge as a negative thing, (inaudible at 00:33:36) grudges. I think there's something in the middle between not holding a grudge and forgetting it ever happened. Honoring that this occurred and this was not okay.

CLIENT: I don't want to, in another month, still be sitting here and saying, "Aw, it's so difficult. Aw, I still can't (inaudible at 00:33:56)." I don't want to be stuck. Even if he's stuck and not able to talk about it and we can't move forward with it in any way as a couple, I don't want to stay stuck in this forever. [00:34:07] I need to, I don't know, find a way to deal with the feelings but I don't want to not move on.

THERAPIST: Yeah. That's why I say to you I think we'll get to the, "Why?" continuously over time. Some people, even in therapy, talking about their parents and childhood, you could be talking about it for years, trying to understand why from back then.

CLIENT: Oh gosh. [laughs]

THERAPIST: But that's different than, I think, what you're saying your goal is right now, is really getting a new frame that you feel comfortable with around this relationship, with what you're going to be doing with the relationship. That feels good enough. That you trust enough is the right thing to do for right now.

Again, I (ph) saying separation is not permanent. There are-

CLIENT: We need it.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's a...

CLIENT: I just-

THERAPIST: You're clearer.

CLIENT: I'm very clear. I'm very clear on this. I don't know if I'm ready to tell my friends, but I'm so clear that this has to happen. [00:35:01] I am desperate for it, at this point.

THERAPIST: Okay. (crosstalk at 00:35:04)

CLIENT: It's going to be really-I'm sure I'm going to fall to pieces again when he leaves, and it's not going to... But we need it.

Something that I would like to rely on you for is making sure that along the road of it being difficult, or having positive memories come up and all these different, confusing emotions, that I don't look the other way. Or that he doesn't come back to me because I am the person who's taking care of him or been there for him. And I don't go back to him because I couldn't forgive myself. I guess I don't want to continue for the reasons, that's this.

THERAPIST: You don't want to be allowed to slide back in to something that continues to destroy you, just because you're feeling too guilty or too scared. That's not worth destroying your life. And I absolutely hear you on that, that's kind of where I was thinking, anyway. But it's helpful to me to hear that know that. [00:36:01] It feels clear enough right now, but yet you know it could get a little foggy in the months to come...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...and that you need help being reminded about why you're doing this and what you need in order for the relationship to feel like something you want to pursue again.

And I think you're doing a great job, Ramona. The way you described saying to him, "Ivan, I hear you and that's helpful that you're some... But it's still not the same as actually apologizing for what really happened and talking to me about it in a thoughtful and a thorough way."

That's your voice, right now, saying, "I'm taking in some of what you're trying to do. And I'm not going to lose myself just because you're doing just a little bit." It's keeping the boundary around yourself and not letting so much of him permeate you that you lose yourself.

You could also lose yourself over fear and shame, and that's the other work we have ahead is why, help you understand, or why it's so hard to tell your friends, for example. [00:37:03] I could imagine you really using their support right now. As scary as it is, it may be that once you say this out loud to people, it actually might feel better. It becomes more real, and it is. You can get support. Do you know what with friends is the most frightening or the most embarrassing? What's the...?

CLIENT: It's a shameful, embarrassing thing, to me. How do I describe what happened? I could use the word "abusive," but that-I think for most people for me, anyway I picture Ivan punching me. I don't want to depict him as that not that what he did is better or worse. But I don't know how to describe it. And I also know that even with really close friends, I think there's-for their sake, there's an appropriate barrier into what you share. [00:38:01] And it could be for a positive thing in the bedroom, but you don't share-I don't know. I was brought up in a very-we don't talk about those types of things at all.

So I don't know how to explain what's going on, and I also don't want to be that friend who is so down and who doesn't have a job, and her husband's living somewhere else, and he was abusive, and she-oh, and her mom... [laughs] I think, at some point, that can be exhausting for friends or it can be uncomfortable. I don't want to lose the positive time I have with my friends, because I'm so down or they think that I'm so down, or they don't want to talk about it, they do want to talk about it. I don't want to make them uncomfortable, I think.

THERAPIST: I also struck that, in a way, it has to be in your mind that he was abusive in order for you to be separating. [00:39:00] I think that (inaudible at 00:39:01). People separate all the time because they really are not getting along and not because one or the other was abusive. And I think it somehow doesn't feel like that's enough for you.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Your parents stayed together and it-had a horrible relationship, to this day.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's not a connected, loving relationship. It's incredibly antagonistic and avoidant and daggers thrown all the time. I don't think it was good for you or your sister that they stayed married in that way.

You might have actually felt better and healthier had they separated. And happier people maybe your father would have come home more, then. Maybe part of what he was avoiding was your mom.

CLIENT: I feel a tiny bit of maybe it's progress that divorce is unthinkable to me. And so much of it associated with that and how horrible that is than breaking a promise. [00:40:00] But then, thinking about their situation or maybe even mine is that better? Is that more loving and more honoring to a promise? I don't know.

THERAPIST: Right. You can start to see it even when kids are involved, when you draw the line that this staying together ethic and morality actually starts to lose it being the most moral and ethical thing to do. When you're destroying each other, when kids get hurt by the level of aggression, anger, frustration; is that better, in terms of taking care of what is the most loving thing to do?

I think it's a complicated question. But it sounds like there's some room for you to say, start to consider that maybe it isn't-people can stay together aggressively, as a way to destroy each other. Sometimes, the most loving thing you can do for another person is separate from them. [laughs] And for yourself.

Again, it's not that that's the prescription here, either. [00:41:00] But I think just-you're saying it's loosening some, but what is love? And what kinds of commitments are worthwhile? And which ones are destructive commitments? There's (ph) a question now (ph).

With friends, Ramona, I imagine there's a lot more room to talk about things than you know. On the one hand, because of your upbringing, there's so much you're not used to being able to share about daily troubles and foibles. You didn't have parents who said-talked about these kinds of things with you in a way that made it feel safe and loving and knowing.

And yet I also understand you might feel safer having something clear in your mind that you want to say, and not say more until you want to. [00:42:00] Until maybe you're having a heart to heart with someone and more comes out, so that you really get more into the details.

And so what is that thing that you're going to say when you first say it that feels like it feels like a good things to say? That you'll be able to say, "I feel good and honest and safe having said what I just said, that that was a way of explaining it that makes me feel better."

CLIENT: I also really don't want anyone to pity me. I don't want someone that's like, "Aw, the victim," or, "Oh, the jobless." [laughs] I don't want people to look at me and think that.

So tonight, I can go over to my friend's apartment and we can talk about-we can talk about I'm looking for a job. Some of my friends still are, too. We can talk about that type of stuff. But we will laugh. We'll have a good time. Nobody will be thinking, in the back of their head, "He's not here because..."

It's an easy out, I guess. But I don't know. The only thing I can think I could potentially tell a couple of my really close girlfriends, maybe? [00:43:05] I could never tell any of my guy friends. I think that would be way too-I don't know why, but...

THERAPIST: You also should feel free to do it when it feels comfortable for you. You don't have to tell anyone tonight if you're not ready. You (crosstalk at 00:43:21).

CLIENT: No, there's no [laughs] (inaudible at 00:43:22) I am tonight.

THERAPIST: You have an out. You're still coming to terms with this. We can't start telling people until we've had some time to process it inside ourselves, whatever it is. "I have cancer," whatever is the thing that you're-you have to kind of have it inside in a place that feels good enough to start telling people. And I think you're still working on inside. So it makes a lot of sense. But you might one day feel like you could say something.

Ramona, I don't think you're only leaving him because he assaulted you in bed. I think, if I were telling your friends, I might say something like, from your perspective, you did not feel like you and Ivan were on the same page, repeatedly. [00:44:12] That you felt like he avoided things all the time and you couldn't talk to him after a while about just about anything. There were a number of things he did that maybe you don't want to get into right now, but that were pretty significant lies or acts or led you really, really not to trust him. And that your trust is feeling broken right now. And that you need some time apart to think about what steps you're going to take next.

So that keeps it-it doesn't mean you have to say that, but I'm just giving you an example of some of the language that validates some very significant things happening that made you feel like you just can't-this is not enough to stay, right now. [00:45:02] Without having to get into the details of "what," if you don't want to. And then you can pick and choose, as you feel like. Actually talking about school. Actually talking about having been sexually assaulted.

CLIENT: That's the thing. It's hard to go from zero to a hundred. Because, with my friends, I've mostly shared the positives. And a lot of my friends in relationships, they mostly share-I'm sure Helen and Kevin, as much as they look really awesome and they're wonderful people, I'm sure that it's not the perfect relationship. I'm sure they have fights and have issues that they don't share, and that's fine. It's hard to go from that to, "Ivan's looking at apartments."

THERAPIST: I totally get it. "By the way, I'm separating."

CLIENT: Yeah! [laughs]

THERAPIST: So it might be that you plant a seed first. Maybe tonight, you said, "Things are not good with us and I don't really want to talk about it," if you don't want to get into it. But, "We're just having a really hard time." That could be all you say, as a starting point, that even just gives you exposure to sharing vulnerable things with other people. [00:46:05]

It might lead someone else-you're not alone, Ramona. Someone else might say, "Oh, I've been having a hard time with my boyfriend, too." People who aren't saying that to some degree are all lying to some degree. [laughs] Everybody's fighting, everybody has insecurities, everybody has stuff. You're not alone.

And you might start to feel like, okay, just-it's like dipping your toe in the water, about what it's like to start to share a little bit of this. And then you could eventually let in people more. You're doing that here, too.

[I'm going to stop] (ph). What are we doing next week?

CLIENT: We don't have anything yet.

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:46:44) because of Monday.

CLIENT: I know that you said you had something on Thursday, but it's at the same time as...

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: ...it's from 12:30 to 2:00. And I feel like it's pretty important.

THERAPIST: Yep. Sounds really important. [00:47:00]

(pause)

What time is your-12:30 to 2:00. I was going to say I think I could also do 1:40, or maybe that was the time I told you about.

CLIENT: I think that is.

THERAPIST: That is the time I told you about.

CLIENT: It's in Hartford, [that's the other thing] (ph). If that's truly the only time you can meet, I can try to meet with her individually instead of going to the workshop, if that [is the only thing] (ph).

THERAPIST: No, I'm going to see if there's something else I have to take care of.

(pause)

What about 12:00-12:10 on Wednesday?

CLIENT: 12:10 on Wednesday...

THERAPIST: It's not a time I usually see people, so that's why I... But given where things are... No? [00:48:00]

CLIENT: So I'm supposed to volunteer at 1:00 and then take a break at 3:00 to have that meeting and then go back to volunteering until 5:30, so that's all in Hartford.

THERAPIST: So that's not [a go] (ph).

CLIENT: No, no really.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I mean, I could try to see if I could-that's my only day to volunteer next week, because of Labor Day...

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: ...but I could try to see if I could... I would have to be there by 3:00. I have nothing on Thursday other than the workshop, I think. I know that might not be helpful.

THERAPIST: I'm totally booked up besides that appointment time.

CLIENT: Okay. Okay.

THERAPIST: Do you want to-cancellations come up, so I will let you know if something happens in the next couple days.

CLIENT: Yeah! Yeah!

THERAPIST: If nothing does, do you want to check on the Wednesday?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah. That absolutely has to happen. He said he was free 2:00 to 5:00 and we said 3:00, but I'm sure I could move it to 4:00. [00:49:03] And then that would be fine, if I could call off the volunteering or even go in for a little bit after my meeting.

THERAPIST: 12:10, you wouldn't get there by 3:00, in time. Or you're saying (crosstalk at 00:49:13).

CLIENT: 12:10...

THERAPIST: On Wednesday.

CLIENT: Oh, 12:10. That'll be fine.

THERAPIST: That'll work?

CLIENT: Yeah. I need to (crosstalk at 00:49:21).

THERAPIST: [laughs] Did I say something else?

CLIENT: I was thinking 1:10, I don't know why I was thinking 1:10. Yeah.

So I can talk to my supervisor about volunteering.

THERAPIST: So I'll put that in with a question mark. If anything else comes up...

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: ...I will let you know anyway.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Do you want to just confirm with me?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Okay. And I'll anticipate for the other copay. I can give them a call, but I'll anticipate that, because that's what they said.

THERAPIST: Okay. Okay.

CLIENT: Okay. Okay. Thanks. [00:50:00]

THERAPIST: Oh, you have help with that?

CLIENT: I have (crosstalk at 00:50:07).

THERAPIST: I mean, that's a lot for you.

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