TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: I'll show you a few rides (ph). It's a trek for you to get here.

CLIENT: It should have, even including the walk, I should have been here before noon, but (inaudible at 00:00:12).

THERAPIST: Are you sick?

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm getting over it.

THERAPIST: On your way to volunteering today?

CLIENT: I have an interview meeting this afternoon. It's for a job I haven't applied to, just someone I was going to meet with for an informational e-mailed me preemptively and said actually he knew of a coordinator position. Wanted to talk about that with me. But I might (crosstalk at 00:00:43) after that, yeah. Yeah. [sighs]

THERAPIST: [Poor you] (ph). I did get your journal entries; I actually had a second to read them, (crosstalk at 00:00:55).

CLIENT: Oh, I wasn't expecting that, but okay.

THERAPIST: I'm brought up-to-date some. How are things? [00:01:01] How are you? Where are things with Ivan?

CLIENT: He's not moved out. So I'm not sure what to do with that.

THERAPIST: His plan is to.

CLIENT: Yep. Supposed to be. Dr. Bourd (sp?) evidently told him, "You know, it's not a separation if you're sleeping on the couch. You need to set a date by which you're going to move out." That date was the 2nd. So I guess they picked it out together as the 2nd and he still doesn't have a place.

THERAPIST: Where are you right now? What are you wanting? How are you doing? This is so much tumultuous change.

CLIENT: It is. I guess the best answer is I'm not it's a terrible answer but I'm not sure where I'm at, because I really cannot do this anymore. And Ivan, in my perception which is clearly biased I don't receive that he's making efforts. [00:02:05]

There are a lot of days that he's not speaking to me, even from the start of the morning. This morning, I'm like, "Are you not speaking to me again?" And he says, "Well, my mouth isn't moving, so clearly I'm not speaking to you."

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't even know where it comes from. Not that I'm trying to analyze him, but I would guess that all the anger is maybe a bit at himself, but I'm getting it. I don't know. I don't know.

But most days are like that. Or if I try to initiate conversation which I need to stop doing but I really tried, because I really want... Five days feels like a really long time to just not talk about it and not deal with it. [00:03:03] And we're not making progress, but we're not saying, talking about steps further than him potentially moving out. We're not going either way, I feel.

And he's really mean, really cruel. He told me he's exasperated the way that I have dealt with him molesting me. And I, "How are you exasperated with my response?"

THERAPIST: Why does he say that? I'm curious even what his if I'm hearing his experience, what is he exasperated with?

CLIENT: That's what I asked. And he just said he's exasperated with the way I've responded. And that's all he'll say. I don't understand.

So I feel like I spent a lot of time begging him, essentially, to apologize, to be different, to make efforts, to talk to me. He won't look at me, even. [00:04:01] He's doing the moping, just staring at the floor, folding his arms. Won't say anything, it's just totally shut down.

It feels like it's not okay. But there's this bizarre... There's a part of me that says, "I can't tolerate this. You have to move out." What he did was really unhealthy and the aftermath has been almost I don't want say worse than what he did, but it's really compounded it, I think for me, for my experience.

But then there's part of me that's taking care of him. And so when he doesn't bother to call and it gets late into the night and I know he was out with his bike, I worry about where he is. And he doesn't answer his phone. [00:05:00]

So I guess I was wondering, you had started to explain, I think you called it a sadistic or masochistic I don't know if you used the word "pattern" or "cycle" but part of me felt like, "Why am I doing this? Why am I chasing after him, wondering if he's okay? Why don't I say, 'The heck with it, he's a grown man.'?" That type of a, "Why am I doing this?"

THERAPIST: That's a great question. In other words, starting to look at what you're-what is your unconscious, psychological investment in continuing to chase after him? He's sort of beat you down with, "No." He beat you down again. He's ignoring you. He's keeping his head down. He literally says to you, "My mouth isn't moving so I guess I'm not talking." That's so immature sort of laughable, almost, its level of immaturity. And obnoxious and rude. [00:06:00]

But you persist. So I wonder what you think about that. What is in it for you to keep trying and keep trying and keep trying?

CLIENT: It doesn't feel very helpful in this space, but to me, I feel so confused and so terrified. And I keep thinking of this kind of analogy of if you fall into the pool and you want to get to the top but you open your eyes and you're disoriented and you don't know which way is up. And if you could just see which way was up, you would be fine. That's how I feel in this situation, in this marriage, right now.

One minute, I'm convincing myself, "We can work through this. (inaudible at 00:06:48) a lot of effort, but..." And then next minute, I'm saying, "Look at all of these really extreme things. This has been really unhealthy. We've been in couples' counseling for half of our marriage." [00:07:01] Which I know, too, that's different when it's only two years that you've been married, but it's like...

So I keep going back and forth and back and forth, and the only thing I can figure out is that it would maybe be natural to care about him still, regardless of what he did you can't just turn that off because someone abuses you or hurts you.

THERAPIST: No, you can't.

CLIENT: But I'm also is it coming more from the I don't know what a good... the drive to have... Not the perfectionist thing that I do, maybe, but the not failing, not giving up. It has to work. And that's not a good reason for anyone to stay together. But I can't figure out what it is or what's going on exactly. [00:08:01] There's something wrong with that.

And yesterday, in the morning, he's telling me how exasperated he is with me for the way I've responded. And I really kind of wanted to, I don't know if I was ever angry enough to, I don't know, hurt someone, I felt angry enough. Clearly, I did not.

THERAPIST: The fantasy (inaudible at 00:08:24).

CLIENT: Not helpful, but it feels like that.

THERAPIST: It's ordinary, actually, Ramona. You have urges to hit, punch the urge to (ph) is a normal thing that comes along with an intense feeling. It's very different if you do it, that's not helpful. But the urge, the fantasy, the feeling, these are ordinary feelings.

CLIENT: It definitely came out, then. So the bewilderment and the disbelief really highlighted. But then, last night, he... [sighs] I called him around 9:30, because he should have been back by then. [00:09:01] And I was, like, I'm not going-the past two nights, I spent chasing after him, finding out if he was okay or what he was doing. It's like, I'm not doing that again.

THERAPIST: Are you chasing after him literally, you mean?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: Like, driving around, looking for him?

CLIENT: Yeah. Like I described in the journal.

THERAPIST: Oh, I think I must not have gotten to that part, then. I must have read half of it.

CLIENT: I'm not doing that again. And he actually called me and I thought, "Fine. He's going to tell me what his (ph) night is, whatever, and then I don't have to deal with it." And actually, he's like, "I have a migraine. I wouldn't ask, but can you come pick me up? I rode my bike and I can't ride my bike back."

So of course I did. And then, it's like, "Oh, I'm sorry I was rude earlier." I was just like...

So I don't know. I guess I feel I'm not supposed to use the word "manipulated," but I feel kind of jerked-around. [00:10:00] And I feel like it's very, very, very aggressive both refusing to speak and look at me, that feels very passive-aggressive, and being so full of rage and saying things like that. I don't even know where it's coming from.

THERAPIST: I wonder what you need to hear from him right now that would feel like he's getting it right. What would make a difference? Is there anything that would make a difference that he could?

CLIENT: Yeah, and I think I've been very, very, very crystal clear with him. I've actually said it many times, "We need to have that conversation." He needs to initiate it. It needs to come from him. And it needs to really happen. I've said it at least a half a dozen times, and what he says is, "Oh, I've said I'm sorry."

But the other day, I said, "You know, Ivan, saying, 'I'm sorry you feel that way,'" which is what he's said to me, pretty much, "is very different from, 'I'm sorry that I...'" actually going into it, actually trying to explain it. [00:11:08]

THERAPIST: Taking ownership of it, (crosstalk at 00:11:13).

CLIENT: Yes. I've the used the "accountability" so many-I've used that word so many times I never want to hear it again. I've told him he really needs to do that and explain it and actually talk about it. And I would expect if someone actually felt remorse for something that big that it would be accompanied with some kind of form of a plan. Like, "I want to work on this," and, "These are steps I can take," or, I don't know. Something like that has needed to happen. I've been very, very clear about that.

I've been begging-I mean, that's what I feel like me initiating all these conversations, when he's refusing to speak to me, it's pathetic. It's pathetic to chase after someone who did that to you, is treating you like this in the aftermath, and to say, "Please apologize, I want to take you back." [00:12:04]

THERAPIST: Well, it's a very powerful repetition of your childhood where you would beg your mother beg, like literally be begging her for forgiveness sometimes, to clean the house, to come out of her room, to speak to you again. You know what that feels like, that desperate, pleading with someone you love to come closer to you.

And that's the part that if you're talking about something sadomasochistic that you're involved in is that you get pulled right back into that childhood place of begging him to be someone else or do something different.

And I don't think it's ever going to come from you begging.

CLIENT: No. On an intellectual level, I know that if someone wants to change something, they have to want to. You can't force them to. Something that I learned on an intellectual level, growing up or from that experience. [00:13:05]

For whatever reason, it's still ingrained in me, to a large extent. I guess a lot of people, you could be a fly on the wall, you'd look at the situation and say, "Why does she keep pursuing? Why does she keep pushing? All of his signals say, 'No relationship, no conversation,' they say, 'No,' to all of that."

THERAPIST: See, I don't think that's true. I actually don't think all his signals are saying, "No." All his signals saying, "No," would be that he had already moved out. And he said, "I'm done with this relationship. I am so sick of this. I'm tired. I'm out of here." That's very clear. It would actually be pretty easy for all your signals to say, "No."

I think he's sending you some mixed signals. And I think if his signals were totally clear, you wouldn't even be begging anymore. It would just be happening. But I think there's a dance you're playing together, where he withdraws and you chase. [0:14:00] And you both are in that. He's invested in your chasing him right now, I think. I think you're invested in chasing. But it also doesn't get you either of you to where I think you want to be.

I think also it's not only that people change when they're ready to change. Certainly, that's a piece of it that helps. But the middle ground of begging between begging and just waiting for somebody to change is to have limits where you say, "If this doesn't happen, I'm not going to tolerate it anymore." That sometimes does get people to change quite a bit.

There's a limit. It's a sense (inaudible at 00:14:42) sounds like all this is sort of floating around without a limit right now. He tried to come up with a limit with Dr. Bourd, who even said to him, "You guys need a limit," or at least, "You need the limit, Ivan. The limit came and went September 2nd."

CLIENT: I don't know what I'm supposed to do about that, because he literally didn't send this person an e-mail, so he lost the apartment. [00:15:02] Of course he lost the apartment. I think the only reason he's staying is because he doesn't have another place to go, it's not because...

THERAPIST: Yeah. But do you think he lost the apartment by accident or on purpose, unconsciously, do you know what I mean? Just because of...

CLIENT: I don't know. Yeah, I don't know.

THERAPIST: ...being careless, or is it motivated by something. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: I have no clue. I mean, it sounds like typical Ivan. Not returning an e-mail, that's typical. But I have no idea if-I guess what I'm saying, if he's staying because he's not quite ready to leave, what the heck is he doing? Because there's been no form of apology. Why? Unless he's still feeling dependent and he's scared to live on his own.

THERAPIST: He sounds scared. You're scared. [00:16:00] You're not so ready to leave that you've put down an ultimatum or have left, yourself. I think you both sound scared.

Ramona, what's the side of you that's saying, right now-you started off as saying, "On the one hand, sometimes I feel like we should keep working on this, we can keep working on this, we'll work it out. On the other hand, sometimes I feel like I'm just done, we need some space, we need a break and we're sending each other all the signals that say we need a break."

The first side of you, where is the information, the data coming from when you say, "Sometimes, I feel like we could keep working on this"?

CLIENT: I don't know if that's realistic anymore, but I guess I have... [sighs] I guess I've wondered if married people who go through this type of thing I'm assuming that Ivan and I aren't the only couple out there who one of them has done this if they are able to go on to repair and work on it and eventually come to terms with it and move on. [00:17:09] If they're not willing to throw the relationship away completely over that.

THERAPIST: I don't think that's why you guys are thinking about breaking up, though.

CLIENT: No, that's not it. That's not the whole thing, but (crosstalk at 00:17:22).

THERAPIST: There's like the straw that broke the camel's back. Maybe it's a branch, because it's a pretty big one. It's not, like, a little straw. But there were lots and lots of other straws.

CLIENT: Yes. But this one's different, if that makes sense.

THERAPIST: It is different. And yet, I think if it's the only one that happens, I don't think you'd be where you are right now.

CLIENT: No. No, agreed.

THERAPIST: You'd be totally confused and angry, but there would be a platform to talk it out.

CLIENT: Agreed.

THERAPIST: I think you're fed up with not just that he did that but that he's not willing to engage with you in a mutual back-and-forth conversation where he's taking ownership of his stuff and you're taking ownership of your stuff. [00:18:04]

Over and over and over again that he moved back to, "I'm the worst person in the world, woe is me, you are too good for me, you shouldn't be married to me." You can't have a conversation with that. It doesn't go anywhere.

CLIENT: No. No, we're not going anywhere.

THERAPIST: To me, that's actually-this is what I said last week, when you were asking me, when we were talking a little bit about what would you say to a friend, even about why. I think that is the largest why right now, of anything. You're not happy in the day-to-day interaction and working-through of problems with him, period, before this happened.

CLIENT: I did feel like we were making some progress, though, before. Clearly, I was wrong, because there was stuff going on with him.

THERAPIST: No, I think you were right. You were picking up on lots of little things that were starting to happen. They weren't happening all the time, necessarily, or consistently, but they were happening. [00:19:03]

CLIENT: Yeah, but I was under the impression that things were going better and we were making progress around and during the first time he did this, because I didn't know it happened. He must have had some clarity that things weren't quite like-I don't know. We weren't on the same page, that's for sure.

So it feels, I don't know. In that, it felt like there was some progress. It's really hard, because right now, I'm thinking this is horrible, but when I think about it, okay, I admit that I'm very confused when I admit to this, it's not articulate or well-formed or anything like that. But I just think to myself, "I never want to have children with Ivan. I never want to have a house with Ivan. Maybe I don't want a future with him. Two years may be one thing. I don't want to spend the rest of my life with someone who is molesting me in my sleep and freaking not apologizing." [00:20:02]

I'm sorry, but there's just no excuse for five weeks to go by and that conversation hasn't happened. On top of which, he's really not talking to me. Not that it would be excusable, but you would think if one of us was not going to talk to the other, it would be me. And that's not happening. He's actually the one who's angry and saying really cruel things.

And he's framed this separation as, "Well, we both have our own stuff to work on." Which is true, but around him molesting me in my sleep? Not my fault. Zero accountability in my hand. But he really told me, he's like, "I did it because I was so tired of being rejected." And I said, "Ivan, we weren't-Dr. Farrow said there have to be conversations before there's physical intimacy. You have to verbalize, talk about what you want to do, and then decide if you both agree to part of it or all of it or none of it. [00:21:08] That that needs to be happening." And he wasn't doing that. And I said, "You weren't hearing, 'No,' over and over. You weren't." [sighs]

I felt like he very much expressed-any time we did have any type of physical intimacy, he would complain, very personal. He would complain. It would usually be something along the lines of, "It's been so long since," or, "Wow, that hasn't happened in a long," or, "That wasn't even fill-in-the-blank." I don't know if Ivan has ever appreciated that that's probably the most personal way you can criticize someone, and that I didn't think that that was fair to be on the table, really, when he's not telling me the truth, not talking with me. We didn't have emotional intimacy. [00:22:01] Which I felt like it needed to come first. [sighs]

THERAPIST: Well, what if, Ramona, what if he does think that that for him, that could be on the table while you're still working on it and you don't? What if that...

CLIENT: Then he needed to say that.

THERAPIST: ...works for him and it doesn't work for you? In other words, I think there are ways even of talking about this without there being-there are places where it's very clear that something wrong has been done. Ivan molesting you is crystal clear. There may be roots that have to do with both of you, but it's crystal clear that was 100% his responsibility for that action. It's not acceptable behavior. It's abusive behavior and he has to take ownership for that.

There may be other things, like how you navigate whether or not you have a sexual life while you're trying to work on the relationship and feeling upset with each other. Different couples do that differently. There are some people who would feel like, well, you kind of keep working on that alongside the other stuff. [00:23:00] There are some people who would feel like, "No, I have to reach a certain level of this kind of safety before that can be anything I'm remotely interested in."

So it doesn't even have to be right and wrong, but you could be feeling very differently about something. And that your feelings matter. They're not just feelings to be overridden by him. His feelings matter. His disappointment that that can't be part of the relationship right now matters, but that doesn't mean yours is wrong. Both of your feelings matter.

CLIENT: But what I've never understood, he's expressed a dissatisfaction with that. He's been very crystal clear on that very, very, very clear from the very beginning. But he hasn't been saying, ever, I haven't heard him, "I wish we were closer. I wish we talked more. I wish you could trust me more. I wish I could work on..."

Which, to me, would be the fundamental... I don't know, because you're not always going to have-[00:24:00]

THERAPIST: The basic stuff...

CLIENT: Yes!

THERAPIST: ...in a relationship, he's not saying he wants that, or, "I want to work on that."

CLIENT: I don't get it. Because I guess in my-it's just opinion, and Dr. Farrow was clear that different people have different opinions about it, but I guess I feel like even if you have a healthy marriage and that's a part of it, that's a really small part of your day, a really small part of your week, and a really small part of your life, compared to the rest of the 24 hours, the rest of the year.

And it's not always going to be a component of your relationship. At some point, you grow old together, and that's not the... Things change. So I guess if there's nothing, there's no substance... [sighs] I guess, for me, physical intimacy needs to come from a very different place. And it can't just be physical. It has to be supported by trusting someone, feeling comfortable being vulnerable with them.

THERAPIST: And that's how you feel. And that's really important. And you're not feeling trusting of your own husband. [00:25:01]

CLIENT: No, and maybe it doesn't matter. Maybe it sounds silly, but for me and I mean, Ivan had this perspective too but waiting until marriage to have sex, even when you had boyfriends and just decided that that was your personal value system. I guess for me, it was even more of a... I don't know, like I respected... I don't know how to describe it, but the relationship with sex, for me, is... If it was just something to do because it feels good or because that's a natural thing to do or because you can have those desires, I would have given in to those desires before I got married. But for me, it had a bigger meaning than just that. And I just feel like he's robbed me of, I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. In your value system, maybe even in particular. [00:26:02] It's that much more that it grow out of a bedrock of a committed, loving, trusting relationship, including marriage. I mean, that's a way that is very clear that that was so important to you. And it feels like that's somehow is being told to you that that shouldn't be that important.

CLIENT: I told Ivan I thought that he was very disrespectful, which I think is a kind [laughs] like a slap on the wrist, it was a comment to say to someone after he did what he did and the way he's been speaking to me, and he just says, "Do you respect me?" That has been his immediate comment. I've said this a couple times. I don't even know where...

THERAPIST: So maybe he doesn't feel respected. [00:27:01] And maybe there are ways you aren't-I don't know, but maybe your communicating let's say, for a second, you are that you think he's lesser-than because he works at Subway or something. He needs to communicate that with words. That's what couples do when you're being an ordinary, healthy (inaudible at 00:27:21), is you say, "I feel like you don't respect me. I feel like you treat me like I'm the scum under your shoe, and I don't like it. It makes me feel bad about myself."

You talk about it! You don't violate someone sexually in their sleep as a way of getting back at them. There's a big difference.

CLIENT: I don't know if he does feel that way. I don't know if he feels like I've treated him like he's less than me or like I...

THERAPIST: My point being, whether he does or doesn't, that's the thing he says back to you, "Do you respect me?" That doesn't mean anything! What is he trying to say? [00:28:00] As though, if you don't respect him, that then he's entitled to do that? No! Even if you didn't let's say you didn't respect him, let's say you consciously, overtly had that feeling of, "I don't respect this man."

That happens in couples. That's not a horrible thing to feel, to not respect your partner. They're doing something you really disapprove of or makes you not think highly or feel in love with them and you stop respecting them. That happens. People come into couples' therapy to work through feelings of not respecting each other. That's not a justification for assaulting you.

CLIENT: Part of me does feel bad, because after some of the bigger things that he's done, I guess I feel like I don't have the same respect for him that I did. And the other day, he said, "I want to be loved for who I am, not who want me to be, not who you dream or whatever your expectations are for me." And I felt horrible, because I think that's it's not fair, but, because when you misrepresent yourself to someone and you work incredibly hard to do that and then they're disappointed that you're not who you said you were, it's not fair to say, "Why are you disappointed?" [00:29:13]

But I think, to some extent, that is what's happening. I don't know. I'm so, so, so, so confused, because this is...

THERAPIST: It is, in a way, how you talk about him. And I say that with a kind of-that doesn't mean you're doing something wrong or bad, Ramona. It's important if that's one of the things you are feeling.

Different people have different thresholds for what would make them not respect someone else. There's nothing wrong with where your threshold is.

If you said it were at one extreme, like, "He has to be President, or else I don't respect him"? [00:30:02] Then we're working more on something in you, because that's really unrealistic and you'd never respect any partner you've had, then.

But you're not asking for sort of pie in the sky, dreaming ideals about a person. You're asking for him to be honest with himself and with you. You might feel you'd respect him more if he worked at something that required more of his education than working at Subway.

CLIENT: It's not so much that as it is Ivan had, I don't know, he expressed dreams and ambition and motivation and purpose in his expectations (crosstalk at 00:30:39).

THERAPIST: So if he were following his dreams and ambition, you'd respect him even if it were to be a Subway owner.

CLIENT: He doesn't seem to have any of that anymore. He doesn't even talk about potential-there's just nothing. He could work at Subway for the next ten years, I don't know, because he's expressed nothing. I just don't know what to do with that, and it feels like such a small piece, right now. [00:31:01]

THERAPIST: His statement, "I just want to be loved for who I am," is also an extreme. So in other words, this is going to follow him. Let's say he gets into another relationship. That person's going to be disappointed in him if they catch him lying for a year about something. In other words, that's not you being, "Oh, you're just being crazy and overly demanding." When people get lied to or when people get physically and sexually assaulted, they have very strong feelings about it.

So he's going to get hurt himself, again. It's not going to work if his expectation is, "I should get to assault people and lie and it shouldn't matter that I have any ambition whatsoever to do anything. And I should be loved for that." In a way, that is what his parents did. All of the things that were problems got shoved under the rug, and (inaudible at 00:32:03) was glorified and idealized. That's so not loving! There's not a sort of naming. "Do you need help with this? You're struggling with this part, let's get this known."

Kids who start to lie about things. Starting to lie is such an ordinary experience, but the parents hopefully catch it and help them-the importance of honesty. And it's so much better to face your feelings. You'll feel better about yourself in the long run. Or getting educated about being an honest person with one's self, even.

His parents participated and enabled him to grow this fantasy that what love is, is that you're allowed to lie, cheat, assault, and the person would love you no matter what.

CLIENT: I guess part of it felt like, I don't know. I felt bad, of course, when he said that. But part of me also felt like it was a copout. You can't molest me in my sleep and then treat me like this for five weeks and then you're supposed to be moving out but you're not and then say, "Well, I want to be loved for who I am." [00:33:06]

You can't do whatever you want and still think that the relationship, that my feelings for you are going to stay the same.

THERAPIST: Do you feel like you know what you want yet, Ramona, or are you still-[I mean] (ph), this is so much to process.

CLIENT: I don't know. I've asked a lot, I think, for him to apologize. And it's still not happening. And I think... I don't know. A part of me feels like it's over. Part of me feels like, "Ramona, this is so unhealthy. This is not okay." And this most recent thing, it's not the only significant issues that he's brought to the table. [00:34:00] Not that I haven't. I know that I've brought things into the marriage and I've done things and said things that weren't okay, and I've had stuff to work on.

And I don't want to be easy on myself, but I guess I would view it workable, some of my things, I would view them workable. But if you use them as part of what you might expect, you both need to work on and it's a process. But I wonder if some of these big things are just above and beyond.

(pause)

I feel like I just need him to get out right now, because I can't bear one more day of him not speaking to me and acting like I don't live here.

THERAPIST: It sounds like you might actually feel relieved to have some space.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yes. It's really hard, because he's putting his stuff in a plastic bag. [00:35:02] We have suitcases. We have bags. But he's being dramatic. He's feeling sorry for himself. There are moments when he's saying horrible things to me, and then before I left today, he's like, "Well, have a good day." I was like, "Are you serious?" It's like this Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde act, kind of.

THERAPIST: Are you to a point where you could say to him, "I think it's time for you to leave" (crosstalk at 00:35:40).

CLIENT: I have said it.

THERAPIST: You've said that?

CLIENT: I've been clear. It's all been clear.

THERAPIST: Have you both agreed that he needs to leave?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. And he's onboard with that, it's not like he thinks, "Oh, well, why am I the one to leave? Shouldn't you leave?" or something like that?

CLIENT: He hasn't said anything.

THERAPIST: Okay. [00:36:00] What if another month passes and he forgets again? I guess I'm asking, this is a logistical question, would you reach a point where you would say, "Well, then, I'm leaving"?

CLIENT: Once I get a job, things might change. But right now, I'm living on loan money and that's crazy. That's crazy.

THERAPIST: Would you live with roommates? (inaudible at 00:36:24)

CLIENT: I would have to, I'm sure.

THERAPIST: Okay. It might be cheaper than what you're paying now.

CLIENT: Oh my gosh, yes.

THERAPIST: So I guess that's what I'm saying, practically speaking, like if you found a place for next month yourself. Are you thinking you're going to move out anyway? Let's say he moves out. Your rent (inaudible at 00:36:42) and it's pretty high for you to pay by yourself.

CLIENT: Yes. Even once I get a job, I could technically afford it, but that'll be a lot of money. The lease expires October 26th, so that's time to renew, and I don't know what to do. [00:37:01]

THERAPIST: What if you were to start to look for a place for November 1st? For example, for yourself. Regardless of what Ivan gets together or doesn't get together, if you don't renew your part of the lease and you start looking for a place with roommates even if it's October 1st and say, "I'm moving out." Has that come into mind, to sort of start pursuing your own place, too? Or does that start to feel scary right now?

CLIENT: It's scary. And it's also the, I don't know, Dr. Farrow said separate at least a month. She laid no ground rules. I don't even know what you do or don't do during a separation. I have no clue. None. But she said at least a month, up to three months, and that would put us at the end of November. So some type (ph) of decision has to be made, but I guess if I thought it was a trial and I pictured Ivan reacting kind of the opposite of the way he's been. And assuming that we come back, we have our apartment again, we go back. [00:38:00]

THERAPIST: So maybe you're thinking, in some ways, if you both find new places, that feels like you're actually giving up right now, as opposed to thinking about it as if it's a trial one to three months, you might stay put for those one to three months. And you see what happens during that time. And ideally, he's moved out at that point.

CLIENT: Yeah. It also maybe feels a little crazy or unrealistic to we both move out, we both get new places, we have a lease, oh, then we'll get a new place together. Probably can't deal with that on top of everything else right now.

THERAPIST: I totally get it. I get it. I get it. Yeah. So he needs a new place. ASAP.

(pause)

We have to stop.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: You sound clear, though, Ramona, about what you want to do for the next month, at least, (inaudible at 00:38:58), and I think that's really important.

Doesn't mean you have to be clear about six months from now or three months from now, even. But you sound like you know what you need right now.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's not an option anymore.

THERAPIST: I think the more you can pull away from the role of begging, begging, begging, begging for an apology, I actually think that will help you even in the trial separation. Even think of starting the separation now. You're not separated if you're still begging, begging, begging. You're starting to say, "Okay, I have to let go. And I'm not going to get that this way." And see what happens then. Then you actually get to see what he will or will not do on his own.

CLIENT: He's not going to talk to me or look at-am I supposed to talk to him later?

THERAPIST: I think to the degree that you talk to him about the practicalities of what the next steps are, that seems reasonable for you. But if you're begging him for an apology, I'd try to start taking that out of that vocabulary. [00:40:00] Write it down, if you need to. Journal about it.

I actually think it's the thing that would have the most likelihood of him apologizing. If anything's going to happen, I think it's if you let it go and it has to really come from him. I'm not sure that it's going to, but I don't think begging's going to get you there. Talking about the practicalities, though, is important and it's realistic for both you to have to do. Okay?

So even if it means you e-mail saying, "We have to talk about what's next. We have to get you a place. When do you want to talk about it?" or, "Is there anything I can do to help you find a place?" Okay?

I'll see you Monday.

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