Client "RY", Session 30: September 09, 2013: Client discusses the new job she just accepted. Client discusses her husband finally moving out of their apartment and how she feels about the separation. trial
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CLIENT: ...on the train, so it was like...
THERAPIST: Like, you were on the train on the way there?
CLIENT: Right. So I was on the train and I could have gotten off at Amherst to see you or I could have gotten off at Bentley to see them. So it worked out that I was able to turn around come back. But I'm just really sorry. If it was a temp agency, I wouldn't have been as concerned, but this is an actual job, so...
THERAPIST: Oh, it is. That's what (crosstalk at 00:00:24).
CLIENT: But it doesn't matter.
THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 0 0:00:24) to understand.
CLIENT: If that was the only time they could see me then that just had to work.
THERAPIST: Totally get it.
CLIENT: It was just very, very last-minute. I got the offer on Friday and then the last thing before they left the office, HR e-mailed me and said, "Just be here at 10:30." They were supposed to arrange availability with me but they didn't. Sorry.
THERAPIST: It's a lot to expect (inaudible at 00:00:51) to say to you, "You have to be here." Who knows what you have going on Monday morning?
CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I literally applied to the job on Tuesday, so it wasn't like... This was completely booked before then. [00:01:03] So, anyway. Very sorry, but...
THERAPIST: Yeah. No, I understand. So this is a temporary job but in a real (crosstalk at 00:01:11).
CLIENT: It's a real job. It doesn't matter.
THERAPIST: It's not like admin.
CLIENT: No. The study ends at the end of December, so that's just the nature of the research.
THERAPIST: So you'd want it?
CLIENT: Oh, I took it. (inaudible at 00:01:29), yet...
THERAPIST: Oh, you took it?
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: Oh, you got the job!
CLIENT: That's why I'm going to HR.
THERAPIST: Okay!
CLIENT: I wouldn't be going to HR-
THERAPIST: I thought you were going in to interview or something like that.
CLIENT: No, I already interviewed. I already interviewed. I already was offered. HR just needs me to set up payroll and stuff like that. That's why I couldn't blow them off, because I can't accept the job on Friday and then say, "By the way, I'm not coming."
So I know it's not good to cancel you or to cancel them, but...
THERAPIST: I totally get the context.
CLIENT: Anyway, so.
THERAPIST: So this a job job, through at least December. [00:02:01]
CLIENT: Yes, it's a job job. It can be full-time, she said in September it might be more part-time, with training and stuff. The good thing is it's crazy-not crazy, but it's kind of weird shifts. It's like noon to 10:00. And weekends are a good-they want people to work weekends.
I still have other interviews coming up. I have a phone one today, actually. Anyway. So I could probably take on a more-permanent full-time job and keep this and try to do it all.
THERAPIST: Really?
CLIENT: We'll see.
THERAPIST: Wow.
CLIENT: I guess that's kind of the goal, to see.
THERAPIST: So you still could interview, possibly take a temp job (crosstalk at 00:02:47).
CLIENT: I am.
THERAPIST: Okay.
CLIENT: I am interviewing. I have two this week. I had two last week. Two the week before. And I'm going to keep going. So that's the goal, so that I have something once this job is over in December. [00:03:01]
THERAPIST: And this is at least income, also then, in your field, building...
CLIENT: Yes.
THERAPIST: ...experience...
CLIENT: No, it's a fairly good job.
THERAPIST: ...building your r�sum�. What's the job? What are you (crosstalk at 00:03:09)?
CLIENT: It's Amherst Group Hospitals. They're doing... Evidently, I guess last year, Connecticut passed another health reform law that not many people know about including me. And the state, as a part of that law, requires the state to do research. So the state is funding this research study in emergency rooms to find out what people know about insurance and what options are available to them, duration and gaps of coverage versus duration of actual healthcare, things like that.
So it's interviews with patients in the ER, which I think...
THERAPIST: Interesting. How do you feel about it?
CLIENT: It's not my dream job, and that's fine. And it's not great money and there are no benefits. [00:04:01]
THERAPIST: There aren't?
CLIENT: Nope. [laughs] Absolutely none, not even travel. But it's money. Not very much, only $18 an hour, but it's money so I'm going to take it, especially because I could do another job and keep it on.
And it's probably good to learn about healthcare reform, that's an important piece that a lot of researchers just (ph) don't get.
THERAPIST: Yeah. And it's experience.
CLIENT: Yep! It's actually valuable experience, it's not just a job.
THERAPIST: It could help you get your next job, yeah, absolutely.
CLIENT: It's something. And I'm working with doctors, so they know other doctors and they will be supportive of me...
THERAPIST: Networking, connections.
CLIENT: ...getting a job.
THERAPIST: Well, congratulations!
CLIENT: It's not a big...
THERAPIST: I know it's not your dream job, but...
CLIENT: It's not a big deal. It's just some money.
THERAPIST: It's something.
CLIENT: Yeah.
THERAPIST: It's (inaudible at 00:04:53) not nothing.
CLIENT: It's not nothing, I guess.
THERAPIST: So we have limited time...
CLIENT: Yep! That's fine. [00:05:01]
THERAPIST: ...where are you? What do you need help with?
CLIENT: I think I feel like I need help but I'm not sure that there is anything.
Ivan moved out.
THERAPIST: He did?
CLIENT: Yeah, but I don't know if he really moved out. Wednesday, he wasn't talking to me again, whatever. And then Wednesday night, he texts me and he's not home and he tells me that his parents are coming to Hartford the next day and that it's not an option and that they are just coming. And that they wanted to be supportive of us. [sighs]
So basically what happened was the next day, he left for work in the morning and took a duffel bag of stuff and said that his parents were going to pick him up after work and I guess take him to dinner, take him to a hotel. I guess he stayed at a hotel with them. For all know, they're still here. [00:06:00] I think they were supposed to leave over the weekend, but I don't know. I guess the goal was to try to help him find a place.
I haven't heard a word.
THERAPIST: So you didn't see them?
CLIENT: No.
THERAPIST: You didn't interact (crosstalk at 00:06:17).
CLIENT: No. They haven't spoken to me since any of this happened. They haven't shown any concern or anything. I don't know if they wanted to see me or if they wanted to-they didn't say anything to me, he didn't say anything about that to me. I just said I didn't think it was really appropriate for them to come hang out at our apartment when he's supposed to be moving out, especially given the context that they're not speaking to me. I didn't feel like I needed to...
He was a little sharp. He's like, "I think I should be able to keep keys as long as my name's on the lease," and I said, "No. I think if you want to come over at this point, you need to text me, e-mail me, and set up a time when I will be here to let you in and you can get whatever you need." [00:07:04]
THERAPIST: How's that feeling?
CLIENT: Pretty confusing, I think is the best word. Never heard a word. He yelled, "Bye!" through the bathroom door, I was in the shower when he left. That's what I got. He was banging on the door, he's like, "I need to get my toothbrush," or whatever. I was like, "I'm in the shower. You can't come in. You know, you could have gotten it earlier in the morning. You can wait until I'm out, but no." And so he's angry about that. He just yelled, "Bye!" and left and I haven't heard a word from him. I never heard a word from his parents.
I have no clue what's going on with him. I'm assuming that he's fine, because his parents clearly took him out to eat and took him to a hotel and stayed with him for at least a couple days, so I'm assuming they wouldn't have just left him [sighs] with no place to stay. [00:08:07]
So I'm guessing he's okay. But I don't know if he took a towel, I don't know if he's living in a hotel, I don't know if they found him a place to stay, I have no clue and I really kind of wanted to... Part of me wanted to call him and make sure he's okay and to find out what was going on. Then I felt like that was just more of me chasing after him.
THERAPIST: It's hard, though. There's not such a basic consideration of saying, "I just want to let you know I'm okay. I'm at this hotel. I'm getting a new place," just so that you're communicating with each other. He's not communicating with you at all.
CLIENT: But I think that's part of the reason we're separating. I mean, it's not a...
THERAPIST: It's not a surprise, that he's not communicating. [00:09:00]
CLIENT: I guess I can only assume he's okay. And I asked my sister, "Should I find out if he's okay? I'm kind of worried." I mean, he took a bag full of stuff but I don't know if he's... He didn't take that much.
THERAPIST: He didn't take all his stuff (crosstalk at 00:09:17).
CLIENT: No! No, and he didn't even take all his clothes. And he didn't even take all of his bathroom stuff, I don't think. I guess I feel like he should be coming back at some point. And I'm guessing he's okay, because I mean, at least, I'm assuming he's talking to his parents. If they showed up and scooped him up, I'm assuming somewhat they would at least be in his business and making sure that he's cared for.
THERAPIST: Yeah. In some ways, at least, you know they came and they're in some ways responsible for him right now. If they're here, they probably are going to help him find a place. [00:10:00]
CLIENT: I think that was the goal. He told me that they said they're coming up to support us. But I think they're just getting him a place and (crosstalk at 00:10:08).
THERAPIST: He used the word "us," which is interesting.
CLIENT: I'm sorry. It makes me furious. It really makes me furious. They couldn't bother to even ask if I was okay over a month ago and now they're coming up uninvited and supporting... I know that's not helpful, but I'm just really angry at them.
And I feel... I guess I want to ask you why I feel this way, but sometimes I wake up in the morning and I'm scared. And not lonely, but I just... I have feelings of missing him.
Not at all the way he was. When I actually think about the way he was, of course I would never miss that. And the things he was doing, I would never miss that, the way he's speaking to me, not speaking to me, I would never miss any of that. [00:11:01]
But I guess I miss what I... The positive memories I do have of him, or the expectations I did have. I don't know if I should use the word "fantasy," but... [sighs] What I wanted it to be, I miss that.
THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:11:20) that early on, of what you thought your life would look like together.
CLIENT: And even some of what did, in the beginning even with the construction job, whatever. Two years wasn't completely, non-stop horrible. Which, I would assume, no marriage even if there is abuse, even if there is lying, it's not completely horrible all the time.
THERAPIST: No marriage is.
CLIENT: No. And so that's really hard to let go of those positive things. [00:12:01] And it's not fair, I think, even if you end your marriage to make yourself feel better by saying it was all terrible.
THERAPIST: No, that's right (ph). Ramona, (crosstalk at 00:12:11).
CLIENT: That's not fair to just throw the baby out with the bathwater.
THERAPIST: It's not fair, yeah, to you or to him, to [either one of us] (ph), it's actually not grounded in reality. And it will make you regret things later, then.
I mean, I'm struck by your saying that part of you wants to ask me why you're feeling these things. But I can't imagine you not feeling these things, to be honest. It's more dangerous when people can't remember the good. Do you know what I mean?
CLIENT: I guess I think maybe if I wasn't you talk about this masochistic/sadistic cycle, I still don't really understand that. I'm trying, but I really want to understand that. We've talked about if I had, I don't know, more respect for myself or if I liked myself more or if I had, I don't know, I don't know how to... [00:13:05]
But I guess I would think maybe part of me would be he needed to leave. I'm glad he's gone. You can't treat me like that. This is a relief. And part of me has felt relieved. I've gone days days, now! without crying at home, without getting worked-up.
But I can't go back to sleep. I can't stop thinking about it. I feel like...
THERAPIST: I guess I hear one of the questions you're asking better than this is, is that you being masochistic? Is your remembering the positive and sort of longing for that or missing that part of being drawn back into it?
It's a very complicated question. I don't think most of it has to be that, though. In other words, Ramona, if you were leaving right now and saying, "Good riddance. [00:14:03] I'm so happy. What a relief," that the only thing you feel's relief? I would actually be more concerned about that, because it's not true.
In other words, when people decide to get married, it's because they have loving feelings for each other. It means that they care about each other. It may mean other things. There may be other complicated layers. But you have loved Ivan. You've cared about him very deeply. He's been very, very important to you. He is very important to you whether you like it or not right now, he is. He's your husband.
We don't just turn off positive feelings. You can't just say, "Okay, well, he's done a few mean or inappropriate things or he even has these incredible deficits, so therefore, I don't love him anymore." The loving feelings are there alongside the things that are making you really frustrated and really feel like this isn't going to work for you. [00:15:01] Of course they're there.
CLIENT: Then how do you figure out which is-whether you should keep working on it or whether you should say, "I need better and different."
THERAPIST: This is the process that people go through in (inaudible at 00:15:21). They weigh all of the feelings that are there and continue to weigh them and continue to weigh them. And it's why of course you're not sleeping right now. If this were easy, there would be something you were oversimplifying. Do you know what I mean? Does that make sense?
CLIENT: Yes.
THERAPIST: So how people decide is if-sometimes people go through, "We're going to separate. No, we're not, we're going to get back together. No, we're going to separate, we're going to get back together." They can go through that ten times. Sometimes people even separate and then get back together, and then separate and then get back together over a long period of time because one of the things they're trying to do is say, "Okay, but when we're separate, I miss and I love him," or, "I miss and I love her a lot and I realize what we have that is important to me and I want that back." [00:16:14] And then they get back together. And then you're reminded of the things you don't like.
I think that's what you're doing in your mind right now, Ramona, is sort of weighing what you have and what you don't have with Ivan. And if what you have starts to feel like it's worth what you don't have, that that's when people decide to stay in marriages. And I think even this is not-marriage is like this. People are not perfect together. Everybody has difficulties. Marriages go through really big things and people are constantly thinking, "What do I have and what do I not have?" And if you're deciding at the end of every day that what you have is not worth giving up on, that it's not worth the bad that comes with it, that that's when people are staying together. [00:17:02]
And I think that's one of the things, you've been on that line of feeling like, "What I have and what I don't have, they kind of go back and forth." But ever since this thing where Ivan assaults you, that scale, then, tipped in the direction of what you don't have, I think. Does that make sense?
CLIENT: Yes.
THERAPIST: Now, that's not to say. Another couple even if that happened, let's say there's something else they had that was so, so important and good. And that they both decide, "Even though this happened, this is so worth it, to stick with this."
That's what I think you're trying to look at in your mind, is where's the balance?
CLIENT: But how do you determine whether it's worth it to stick with it or you're just sticking with it because you feel dependent, you don't want to be alone, you're scared. [00:18:06] It's really difficult to face that, even if it's the right thing to do.
THERAPIST: Right. You could stick to it for the wrong reasons, too. You could say, "Oh, well, we're going to work on it," because you're really just scared, even though deep-down you know that you're really unhappy.
CLIENT: I don't know if being really unhappy is justification for getting a divorce.
THERAPIST: I hear you wanting, if I could just give you the right answer.
CLIENT: I'm not asking for an answer. I guess I'm trying to get some clarity in my thoughts to figure out why I'm thinking some of these things, because I guess I think about... For women who are actually in marriages with intimate partner violence, which I don't know if what Ivan did, I don't know if that would even be an act of intimate partner violence. [00:19:06] But it takes them an average of seven to ten times that they leave before they actually leave the marriage.
And it gets frustrating for people who work with them, because how do you-you never blame that person and you feel compassion for them and you support them, regardless, but it's hard to watch them... You want to tell them to snap out of it, that they deserve better, they have to get out of there.
There's a difference, there, between-their marriages aren't all bad. There's a difference. But even though they aren't and can't...
THERAPIST: In fact, their marriages are never all bad, and that's why they go back. In other words, there's love. It could be someone they fell in love with who then beats them once a month or once every couple weeks, but the apologizes and says, "I'll never do it again," and, "I love you so much," and so you remember all the positive feelings that are there, too. [00:20:06]
CLIENT: But I don't know if it's always remembering positive feelings. What if you do go back to someone because it's scary to be alone? That's not the same as going back because you really want to build on the foundation that was good.
THERAPIST: Yeah. Even by the way even when I say remembering positive feelings, if we're trying to draw a line, Ramona, about what isn't acceptable? If you're being beaten it doesn't matter, even if you're in love and there are positive feelings on some days, if you're being beaten on the other days, it's not okay.
CLIENT: Okay, well, I'm not being beaten. I wish what Ivan had done was more clear. But when is the point of no return?
THERAPIST: So it's different for all people. And this is what's hard, is you're trying to look inside and figure out where are you and what matters to you. What is your value? [00:21:00] You know, you ask the question I would ask you. Is that enough? What if you're not happy most of the time? Is it the ethical thing and the right thing to stay in that marriage or not?
CLIENT: I think, for me, it feels like Ivan has no respect for me. I have no clue why he did that. I still don't understand why he did that. I wish to God someone would tell me why, because he just says, "There was no sex," so he needed to be close to me.
And I guess I could never go back to sleeping in the same bed with someone who, if they even thought they might be rejected if they had the conversation, that would be enough for them to molest you. I don't understand. [00:22:03]
I just know that right now, if I had to think in absolutes and I had to make a decision right now, I don't want a future like that. And I don't know if I could sleep in the same bed with him again. I would never want children with him. I would never want... I don't want any more.
THERAPIST: Ramona, that sounds pretty clear.
CLIENT: But I feel like I'm just clinging to the things that... I don't know where this came from. I don't know if this is him all along and this is just a more extreme example.
THERAPIST: What do you think?
CLIENT: It seems, to some extent, you said that for whatever reason, some of these situations he doesn't roll up his sleeves and do the work to get what he wants. He gets it in a really-it's critical, but he gets it in a really cowardly, underhanded way. [00:23:05]
THERAPIST: That his shame and anxiety are so great that they need him to (inaudible at 00:23:18) and sometimes find kind of backdoor solutions.
CLIENT: I don't understand that. I don't know if it's something that can be overcome and forgiven and we could ever really move on. And I could look back on it and ever be at peace. I don't know if would be realistic to say that in another year, he'll be a completely different person and then this will be so, so, so far behind us I'm not sure that that's realistic.
THERAPIST: It doesn't seem like it's been heading in that direction.
CLIENT: What happened? I look back and I think I have been very critical of Ivan, and I think some of it has been from an understandable place. [00:24:08] When you think you're getting into one thing and it's actually very, very, very different, anyone would feel some, I don't know, would feel critical or would feel disappointed, or wouldn't just sit back and say, "Oh, that's fine, too." It's not like that.
But I did feel as though Ivan went-where we started out and where he was getting to with Dr. Bourd (sp?)...
THERAPIST: That he was making (crosstalk at 00:24:35).
CLIENT: In his whole life, he hadn't addressed his depression or-his whole life, they hadn't been named and addressed, much less was he getting education and weekly counseling. Huge, unbelievable-even if it doesn't feel like enough and if it's ten years later than it should have been, maybe, still huge. And even though being manager at Starbucks is not at all where we thought we'd be, that, for him, going from random construction and waiting tables? [00:25:07] Huge!
And then even struggling there, and getting to the point where his manager is saying, "Wow, you really stepped up. You're making improvement." That's huge!
[sighs] I don't understand. All those steps. If I'm honest, it did feel way too little, way too late. Even though it felt positive. And it's really hard. I feel like I'm just discrediting it, but I don't know. All of that direction, it feels like...
THERAPIST: People can feel that, though, Ramona. It doesn't have to be discrediting it. People can be in a place where you've made all these changes but it's sort of too late. My heart veered off a while ago. Another person, who's not you? Another person might feel differently. [00:26:01]
I think what's so hard is that there isn't a right and wrong answer here. I can be very clear about the behavior that he did being wrong. That doesn't translate definitively into what you should do being 100% clear. You are the one who's going to know (inaudible at 00:26:24) trust and find what is enough for you to want to stay and work on it, and what is not enough for you to want to stay and work on it. I think that's the question.
CLIENT: I wish I had something intelligent to say, but the thing is, if we weren't married, there is no way I would stay and work on this! I don't know what that makes me, but there is no way on God's green Earth that I would stay with someone who abused me in my sleep and say, "Boy, I really want to keep working on this." No, no! I'm staying because... [00:27:01]
THERAPIST: Because of a commitment you made, which matters to you.
CLIENT: It does matter to me. And I don't know if it's okay to say, "Well, my husband's not perfect, so I'm going to leave him, now."
THERAPIST: So that's the question is, is that what you're saying? "My husband's not perfect, so I'm going to leave him, now."
CLIENT: I know it's not that, because nobody's husband is perfect and nobody's wife is perfect and I know it's not that. I just don't know where there's a separation from the understanding that in a marriage, you're both going to have faults and failures and you're going to disappoint and fall short. And knowing that you're getting into that and that you're going to have to stick it out, even if it's really tough, that you're committing to doing that versus what if something just crosses the line and that, in itself, breaks the vows?
I don't want to overreact to what he did. [00:28:01]
THERAPIST: And you're saying you also don't want to underreact to it...
CLIENT: I don't.
THERAPIST: ...that's what you're trying to find is. what is the reaction that if you, ten years from now, look back on yourself, you will feel like, "Okay. I honored what matters to me."
Because I think one of the things that's complicated is you're saying the vow of marriage matters to you. It's not nothing. It's not something that's the same to you as if you were dating, boyfriend and girlfriend.
And it matters to you that he assaulted you, on top of the bedrock of what was already happening that was making you unhappy.
So these two things both matter. You have conflicting values that both matter. And you're trying to figure out, "How do I put these two together and come up with a decision that I feel comfortable with?" [00:29:00]
That other thing that I want to keep reminding you of is that the decision that you're making right now to separate, if that's where you guys go, is not permanent.
CLIENT: As far as I'm concerned, we are separated. It's not fair, because in one minute, I'm saying, I wake up in the morning and I can't describe it but I feel so anxious and I feel so terrified. There's no one else in the apartment. It's just me and my cat. I don't know why. I'm not scared to be alone, it's not like I don't feel safe. I just can't describe it.
And part of me wants him to be right there next to me and I want to feel safe-that's so stupid!
THERAPIST: No, it's not stupid.
CLIENT: But-
THERAPIST: Ramona, these are common feelings people have, especially if they're separating from someone who's been there all the time. You're used to having company; you're used to having another living being's presence. That when that presence is gone even though you can rationally walk yourself through, "Okay, I'm fine, I don't think something's going to happen, I'm safe, I'll lock the apartment." [00:30:08] It can still feel like there's a void that feels like it should be filled by this old, familiar person.
And maybe that's our next step together, is we start to understand and help you more with those feelings. Because that, to just get him back just to fill that up? That is not so good for you, if that's the overriding reason.
CLIENT: No. And I know that. My sister came over both Saturday and Sunday. And I felt bad, but I just needed, I don't know.
THERAPIST: That sounds so good! I was thinking the same thing, let's hang out with your sister more. This is where often for people even having a roommate sometimes I know you don't want to make it that permanent of a change but sometimes that can help.
I might think, Ramona, of this time as, okay, you and Ivan are separated. You're telling me that feels like that's happened. [00:31:01] You are separated for a time. The more you try to, then, let yourself get used to life without him right now, what does this feel like? How do we help you through the anxiety so that you can find a calm, new reason of Ramona's life without Ivan?
Because then I think you start to get some space to compare, sort of compare lives. Do you feel, for example, one or two months from now, "I miss him." It feels like this terrible hole, that's not so much, "Desperately, I have to fill myself up with something because I can't tolerate being alone," but just simply you liked his company. You like the jokes or you like the same movies. Or when you went out to dinner and were talking about the serious stuff, you really got along. And that that stuff feels like you'd rather keep working on the crappy part in order to get the good part back.
Or you'll feel like, "Wow, it wasn't that good for a long time, and I am increasingly feeling more relieved to have my own life again, and to start not worrying about this stuff." [00:32:08] This is where I think time will tell more and more about how being separated feels to you.
Your task right now is trying to let yourself get used to independent life so that you can start to really take it on in comparison to life with him. If you start to feel like, "Wow, I'm so much happier now," than it was then, or it was for two years. Or if you feel like, "Oh, I'm lonelier and I miss him. I remember all the good things that I wasn't letting myself remember," and, "I would want him back if he did x, y, and z."
That's where sometimes people after being separated for a year have a conversation where they say, "Okay. I miss you. This is what I need from you in order to feel like this is a relationship worth having again." And they go back into couples' therapy at that point, and they see-
CLIENT: People separate for a year? [00:33:02]
THERAPIST: Oh, yeah. Oh, yeah. I'm not saying that's what you'll want to do or even what you should do, but that happens. People take time, Ramona. This is a big decision. This is not-when people do it like that, overnight, it's when they're making an impulsive decision and they could later regret it.
I think the more you let yourself just say, "Okay, breathe. Take a deep breath." This is time that we're start going to take in as data for you, to help you understand what it feels like, over time, to not be with him. And he's hopefully going to be doing the same thing.
Who knows? Maybe it's the separation that makes him finally realize, "Oh my God, what did I do?" and he comes back to you three months from now, knocking on the door and say, "I want to apologize. I want to talk to you." I know, you look like, "Yeah, right."
CLIENT: I know that I'm a critical person, but I just... We're now at a month-and-a-half since it last happened, not even since the first time. [00:34:05] That conversation still hasn't happened. Maybe that says a lot.
THERAPIST: Okay, so you have a data point right now. It's not an answer yet, but that's the kind of thing I'm talking about. If you can just let yourself take a deep breath and say, "Okay." You're gathering some data right now. You've noticed that after a month-and-a-half, nothing changed in him.
Sometimes people get to the point in couples' therapy, they go, "That's it! We're breaking up!" and the moment they say that in the session, that week, the husband and the wife both start changing and they say, "I'm sorry. I don't really want to break up." Now that you realized the thread [sic] of the relationship is at hand, it really motivates you to act in a different way.
This is data, in other words. You're saying, "I'm not going to have this path." And it's not like he finally broke down and said, "Oh, what are we doing? I don't want to do this. Can we talk? Let's talk this through. Let's get a session again, because I'm working on taking ownership of my stuff with you." [00:35:03]
CLIENT: At one point, he had said that. He's like, "I want to still do couples' therapy. I want to read this book that Dr. Farrow (sp?) said your colleague said was good (inaudible at 00:35:12). And then, the other day, he's just like, "I'm not scared anymore. I don't think... Maybe we don't need to do that."
THERAPIST: "I'm not so scared," you mean of separating, is that what he meant?
CLIENT: I think that's what meant. It sounds like I shouldn't contact him. I'm just really anxious because part of me feels-it's so nice to go home and not be treated like that and not hear that. But I'm just anxious, because at some point, he's going to show up for his stuff. And I don't know how to handle that.
THERAPIST: Do you ever text each other? Do you text or no?
CLIENT: I do, but he hasn't said anything.
THERAPIST: He (inaudible at 00:35:53) respond.
CLIENT: So I don't know that I should chase after him. He's making it pretty clear. [00:36:00]
THERAPIST: We're going to have to stop, but something you could say that would address your need to communicate something, Ramona, is what if you were to say (inaudible at 0 0:36:10).
CLIENT: I'm sorry.
THERAPIST: I didn't know if you're there. You looked distracted.
CLIENT: You said it's time?
THERAPIST: We're going to have to stop in a second.
I think something you could think about saying to him right now is, if you were to say, "Because we are married, still, and we've shared a lot together, I'm worried about you. So if you feel like dropping me a line just to let me know where you are, I would appreciate it. I also understand if you've chosen mainly not to communicate. Could you please give me a heads up when you're going to be coming by to pick up the rest of your stuff?" And ask him for that, because that's a very reasonable, justifiable thing to say, "Could you communicate about the comings and goings?" Or, "If you're going to be by the apartment, could you let me know?"
CLIENT: Is there any point in asking that if he's going to have to tell me because he has no keys? [00:37:01] I keep initiating all the contact and I feel like you kind of said that wasn't good.
THERAPIST: He's not initiated any contact recently...
CLIENT: No.
THERAPIST: ...or responded to anything you've said?
CLIENT: Nope. Not since Thursday morning, when he said, "Bye."
THERAPIST: Yeah, so, he's with his parents. He's an adult. There's only so much can outreach (inaudible at 00:37:26). There's only so much you can do. And if he's not responding, it's like you're beating your head against the wall. You want to focus more of your energy and effort on taking care of you right now, then.
And you might reach a point, if he doesn't respond and two weeks go by and you still have all his stuff, you might reach a point where you're saying, "Okay, well, I'm going to be putting your stuff outside your door, if you're not going to come get it." I know you're not there yet, but...
Taking care of you right now may mean sort of pulling back and waiting for him to be in touch if he needs to or wants to. [00:38:00] He doesn't have a key! I didn't know that part. So that makes sense.
Is our time not going to work next week? (inaudible at 00:38:15)
CLIENT: I haven't been given any work schedule, but it sounds like it's usually noon to 10:00 at night.
THERAPIST: Oh! Noon to 10:00.
CLIENT: Yeah. Well, it's an emergency room.
THERAPIST: Long hours.
CLIENT: Yep.
THERAPIST: Great.
CLIENT: I will let you know.
THERAPIST: Okay.
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