TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: How are you?

CLIENT: Not good.

THERAPIST: Tell me.

(pause)

THERAPIST: It's okay to cry, Ramona.

(pause)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:00:51) you're crying by yourself.

(pause)

[00:01:00]

THERAPIST: Is it hard to be here right now?

CLIENT: I don't know. I thought Monday morning [at 10:00 a.m.] (ph) would never come. [crying] And now I don't know how to say anything (ph).

THERAPIST: [You mean] (ph) it almost feels like it's how can you possibly, in 45 minutes, get what you need here when things are so overwhelming and emotional and painful right now? [00:02:08] You can wait and wait and waited for this time to come, but then when it's here, it's like a drop in the bucket. It's almost like you can anticipate our ending today, and then you're back with the whole week in front of you again, this time [or not] (ph). Glad we have Thursday.

CLIENT: [crying] I need to talk about it, but I also wonder if there's any way... I'm going to have unrealistic expectations for (ph) today, but if there's any way you can help me, towards the end of the session. I have a second interview this afternoon. I need to have a way to get through.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:03:00] So to help you find the container for it so you can leave and feel like you can go on to your interview, with that foot forward. I can definitely try to help you with that.

Just forgive me [that I will be] (ph) peeking at the clock a couple times, I want to make sure we have time to do that. I usually know when 45 minutes is up and I'll try to (inaudible at 00:03:25) earlier.

I got the sense from talking to you on Saturday, though, that I don't know that the only thing you need help with is skills (ph) right now, Ramona. You know what (inaudible at 00:03:36) you saying, "I think I need to talk about it"? Just to get support and presence and company around where you are and that you're not alone with this, I think, is huge.

And I also think you're not used to that feeling good, like you almost don't know what trusting-just trusting me and trusting being here and trusting being where you are and just having that be good and okay to do, I think it's really foreign for you. [00:04:07] It's sort of all-or-nothing, you know?

So you aren't saying that you're so overwhelmed that you need to go in the hospital or feel like you're about to kill yourself. It's not that (inaudible at 00:04:20). So I think just being where you are and having company where you are is really, really important.

CLIENT: I feel like I'm a little concerned, because I feel like I need to rely on you really heavily. Really rely on these sessions and desperately need them. But I'm scared that it won't be enough. For whatever, you wouldn't be able or you wouldn't be there, you wouldn't be able to see me or wouldn't want to-it would be too much for anyone to handle. [00:05:02] It has nothing to do with you, but I-even talking about it, I don't even know if I can talk about it. It's so (inaudible at 00:05:12) [crying], so I don't even know if that's okay that I tell.

THERAPIST: You're worrying a little too much, somehow.

CLIENT: I'm worried that if rely so much on you and so much on my family that at some point, people aren't going to be able to... I don't know what I could do, then. I haven't had any thoughts of hurting myself or even hating myself or being unhappy with myself, so I'm not...

THERAPIST: But you also have these fears that I think run very deep inside you, Ramona. [00:06:03] They're not just about what's happening right now, but about what it means for you to actually rely upon another person really need them. I think you're saying, one of the things you're saying is you do really need me right now. And I think you've worked most of your life to not really need anyone.

You've been so self-sufficient including in your marriage you take care of things, you take care of things, you take care of things, you do the laundry, you do the cleaning, you're doing school, you're doing applications, you're doing Ivan's application, right? You are used to taking care of things taking care of yourself by being very, very, very self-sufficient.

So I think you honestly don't know what to do with being in this place where you really need other people.

CLIENT: [crying] It feels (inaudible at 00:06:56).

THERAPIST: That's the great fear, that you will be abandoned or that you will let yourself finally meet someone and then they won't be there. [00:07:07] As a child, that happened to you in your family. You did need your parents, and you probably let yourself feel that need all the time, early on. And it got hurt over and over and over again. People are not there, in different ways. Your father, literally, was not there most of the time. Your mother was not there emotionally all the time sometimes even physically.

CLIENT: But what happens if I rely on you, and at the end of the day and you're the person I rely on most or you're the person who's able to help me the most and at the end of the day, I understand I'm a patient, a client whatever's the most appropriate term and that's not-I guess it's really important, but that's not a substitute for relationships from people who aren't objective professionals. [00:08:05] I don't want to confuse that.

THERAPIST: Yeah. This is a relationship that has a particular frame around it, that actually exists to protect you. If I became only more of, like, a friendship role, guess what? Then it starts becoming a two-way street, and you don't get your needs met.

It's a weird relationship, admit it. It's very strange. It's not like any other relationship, really, in the world. But it is a relationship. We're two human beings; I'm not a robot, here. You are actually here with me, a person. And there are real feelings that happen, even though it's a professional relationship with a particular [goal and a frame] (ph).

I can't be available to you around the clock, that's part of-even if some therapists can be at different points in their lives, they can be on pager; it's just in the way that I structured my life and my practice. [00:09:04]

CLIENT: [crying] I would never expect it.

THERAPIST: I don't hear you saying that. I am saying that just to say that is part of the frame that I can work with. But I can be there for you in the ways we have in our frame. I'm not going anywhere. I'm just not. I'm not moving (ph). No plans to leave.

And I think you still don't know who you can trust, but this is just your space.

CLIENT: [crying] Because what if it's too much for you?

THERAPIST: What would that look like, too much for me? Meaning that you have a lot of feelings? What's too much?

CLIENT: [crying] Even people like you get burnt-out or can't handle being called by patients after-hours. It's your job. Not to say that that... You're, of course, trained to handle all of it. [00:10:00] But I just worry.

[crying] And I felt that way often with Dr. Farrow (sp), like it was just too much, no one could handle that.

[crying] I guess I want to rely (inaudible at 00:10:17), and I'm worried that... Sometimes I feel bad. I think I start your week off with these really depressing-clearly, you specialize. Somehow, people are able to listen to that. But I just...

THERAPIST: I think that you don't know that your feelings don't scare me or overwhelm me I think you felt your feelings, as a child, overwhelmed your mother. She couldn't stand them (ph). She could not tolerate you being a child with feelings and needs. To me, feelings and needs are fundamental to being human. [00:11:02]

I think you can't trust that that-it's just not how I would experience you. I can't imagine you not having unbelievable levels of feelings right now. Ramona, every person does if they're in this position. It would be very strange if you weren't overwhelmed with feeling right now. It would mean something was getting really cut-off or blocked.

I don't even know which way you're going, but divorce if it's headed in that direction is-literally, studies of the most stressful life events that a person ever could go through, divorce is in the top two, I think. Having a child can be incredibly, incredibly stressful, even though it's supposed to be this positive thing in some ways.

It's up there with losing a parent. You should be having feelings.

CLIENT: [crying] When I talked to you the first time, when I found this list about me, Ivan wrote a list about me and him, about him. [00:12:08] He titled it About Me, and it was a list, Women looking for. He wrote a list there, and then Looking For, and wrote a list of what he's looking for in a woman.

[crying] And I thought that was... I don't know. Reading that was... I couldn't imagine anything. He has a whole folder in Google Documents called LAR, Life After Ramona. And has a to-do list, Life After Ramona (inaudible at 00:12:47). About a job, about where to live, about getting puppies. He has a whole folder called Life After Ramona. [00:13:00] It took me a while to figure out LAR was. Then, the next day, I thought about what else is going on, because the list, as disturbing as it was, I didn't-I don't know.

Dr. Farrow said there are all kinds of reasons why people would write something like that. It's not always they're actually looking for anyone or doing anything like that.

THERAPIST: It doesn't have to be.

CLIENT: So she had talked to me for, like, 10 or 15 minutes. And she told me I had been betrayed so many times that she said that I was getting help and she said that she could maybe speak to me once, individually. So I feel like even she's maybe trying to find a polite way to say, "I'm a couples' counselor, you're not part of a couple." [00:14:00] [crying] Which is fair.

[crying] I know this is wrong, I truly am an honest person, I know this is wrong, I know it's wrong, even if someone gives you their password to go in their e-mail. But I went in his other e-mail.

[crying] He had at the top, September 9th, he had a welcome e-mail for a profile he set up and it's on a website called-I can't even say it, it's F-U-C-K-Book. [00:15:03 ] [crying] There was another e-mail that said how to reset your password. Evidently, he forgot his password.

[crying] And so I clicked on it and he set up this profile and his username is LookingForFun087, his birth year. And it says-I memorized it, after I saw it, I can't stop seeing it in my head. It says, "Looking for," and it says, "Casual sex, discrete relationship, online and photo fun." It says that his race is white Caucasian, that his body type is "Have some extra pounds." And then his sexual interests are one-on-one sex and online, photo, whatever exchange. [00:16:02]

[crying] And it says, "I'm a 26-year-old male from Waltham. I'm looking for a female." He has a friend on there. And so I think it's a pornographic-it's a sex website. He didn't put any pictures of himself, but she has a picture. And her picture is... It's a picture of everything between her legs, her holding herself open and someone took a picture of her...

THERAPIST: Of her vagina.

CLIENT: [crying] Everything. And says that she is 26 and lives in Waltham, but looking for a female.

[crying] I thought that was-and then I looked through more. [00:17:04] On the day before Valentine's Day, he joined Match.com. It's a real dating website that normal people use. And the day before Valentine's Day! And then seeing he tried making that...

THERAPIST: So this is this past February?

CLIENT: [crying] This year. We had talked about it in couples' therapy. He didn't do anything for Valentine's Day. He tried to bake something but he ruined it so he let it sit on the counter for days and he never said anything, didn't do anything, wouldn't look at me, wouldn't talk to me that. And I gave him something and he...

[crying] And we had talked about that in couples', that that was hurtful, but the day before, he-so he set up-he was such a coward, he used his parents' ZIP code. And he didn't set up the profile, just put in all his basic information. [00:18:05]

[crying] But then shows August 5th, he requested his login stuff. It means right after he molested me, he went and looked for his login stuff. I don't know if he got back on or... There was no profile created but there's that.

[crying] And then I looked more, and I found this website called LiveFreeFun or FunFree and it... He had a Request Password Reset e-mail for that. He tells me that that's a website where you read these typed conversations that people are having between-he says they're prostitutes, they're strippers, they're having these... You can go into private rooms, private chats where there's nudity. [00:19:04]

[crying] And he said he read that for a minute and felt disgusted. And he said with his Book account that the reason he reset his password is because while he was creating his profile, he got kicked off, somehow, so he got back on and accepted this friend request. And then he says he was disgusted and cut-off and went back to look at the list he made of what he's looking for which, according to him, an introspective. And I don't even know what that's supposed to-he says that he created this list when he was angry, and that in creating it, he kept realizing that everything he was-that he just wanted me, that he didn't want all these things. [crying]

THERAPIST: So you talked to him about everything you found? [00:20:02]

CLIENT: [crying] I called my parents when I found all this stuff. I called them at like 12:30 Friday night, because I didn't know what else to do. And my sister had just left me, because she had been there with me because I was so upset over the list.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:20:21)

CLIENT: [crying] And so they stayed on the phone with me and they talked with me. My dad, he's said, "Send me the e-mails, send the pictures, take pictures of it, send it to me, because he's going to delete all of this and you're going to need some kind of..."

[crying] And he would be like, "You can't go over and see him. You can't call him."

THERAPIST: Wait, why-I don't know why they want you to take pictures of it.

CLIENT: [crying] They were worried that there will be a legal component at some point.

THERAPIST: Assuming you get divorced?

CLIENT: [crying] I think so. [00:21:00] And that he would delete all of it and deny all of it and that no one would ever...

THERAPIST: It's not like you have kids where there's going to be a custody battle or large...

CLIENT: [crying] They said that things can get really horrible and I don't even understand. That even if I called him or even if I went to his address, that he could call the police. He could say I was harassing him. He could... Even if it's not true, they said don't, because he could turn all of it around.

THERAPIST: Ramona, even though-let's say (inaudible at 00:21:38)-I just want to say, being in reality for a second, even if he does-let's say he did call the police and say you were harassing. It's not going to really affect you in that as you get divorced. You don't have a large estate you're about to divide up.

CLIENT: [crying] No, but he could have me arrested and then I'd have a record of harassment. And then I can't get a job. [00:22:00]

THERAPIST: You think he would have you arrested?

CLIENT: [crying] I don't know. Clearly, I don't know what he's capable of.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: [crying] He has all these profiles. The one that he made on the Book (inaudible at 00:22:14), he made that on the 9th!

THERAPIST: Of?

CLIENT: [crying] September! Which is two days after when we started dating five years ago. The end of October was when we were first boyfriend/girlfriend, officially. But September 7th, 2008 is when we started dating and started...

THERAPIST: It's deep, deep, deep betrayal, Ramona.

CLIENT: [crying] And June 2nd is when he renewed his password for the online, the Live-whatever. That was the beginning of June! The middle of June, he did the most amazing thing for my birthday. [00:23:03] At the end of the month, we had our anniversary and it was the nicest-we were in such a good place and I thought we were making progress and we were so happy.

[crying] But he's doing this stuff at 3:00 in the morning. And I remember there were nights when he was out in the living room, really, really late, and he would say he couldn't sleep or he couldn't... This is what he was doing, at least some of the time. Those are accounts you need profiles or whatever, I don't know what else he could be on, what else he's looking at.

[crying] I don't understand. And when I went to meet him-Emma, they made me, "You have to meet him at a public place. You can't go alone." He's sitting outside the library, reading a copy of, "His Needs, Her Needs," because that was recommended as a... [00:24:02]

THERAPIST: It's the one Dr. Farrow recommended.

CLIENT: [crying] It's one that I guess that Dr. Bourd (sp) and other people have...

[crying] So he's reading that book. He says that he's told Dr. Bourd about Match.com and about the porn site and that he's told them there's no excuse and there's no reason and, "Why are you trying to connect with other people when your wife supports you?"

THERAPIST: But when you're married, even if you're not supporting him, that's the part-Ramona, people use...

CLIENT: [crying]

THERAPIST: It's an enormous, enormous betrayal. [00:25:02]

CLIENT: [crying] He (inaudible at 00:25:04) tells me that the reason he does that is that he's says he's not looking for anything. And he says all those interests were he had to click on so many to set it up so that he could even see what it was.

[crying] And he says he doesn't-he's done these because he has escape fantasies. Because, he says, he avoids so much that he has to, that (ph) he takes it to these extremes.

THERAPIST: I think that is what it is. But that doesn't mean it's not a betrayal. It's not okay that he's catering to these risqu� (ph) things (crosstalk at 00:25:38).

CLIENT: [crying] He told me that LookingForFun wasn't him. LookingForFun was someone but that he was looking at it for fun. Like that makes it better?

[crying] I'm sorry, I'm not...

THERAPIST: It's okay.

CLIENT: [crying] Over the weekend, I had this deep, deep, deep... I know that people don't-you don't die when your spouse cheats on you, you don't die when they don't love you. [00:26:11] But I felt like I'm dying inside, because I have never felt that level of pain.

[crying] I watched my grandparents die. I have dealt with my dad having an affair. I've dealt with real, serious, actually painful things in life, and I never, ever thought it was possible to feel this much pain.

[crying] And I don't understand. And I've been so anxious. I can't sleep at night. I just shake and shake and shake and shake and I can't... And my sister's been sleeping over. But I don't want to eat, I don't want to anything.

[crying] At the same time, I wonder what happened because I really still love him. [00:27:02] And I go to bed at night and I don't-I understand, but why isn't he there? I don't understand.

THERAPIST: It's enough to take in what's happening. Even if none of this were happening, even if you were just parting ways because you weren't getting along. That's already enough, to look over to his side of the bed and not see him there. It's painful.

CLIENT: [crying]

THERAPIST: And now add this on top of everything. Ramona, it's devastating. It's (crosstalk at 00:27:37) so devastating.

CLIENT: [crying] I made him tell his parents, which isn't going to actually help anything, but... I felt like-like I couldn't be the only-one more thing where I'm the only one that-

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:27:52) it does help, that you know that there are other witnesses right now. Your sister, me, your parents, and now his parents whatever they're going to do with it, (inaudible at 00:28:04) that this is part of what's been happening with him.

CLIENT: [crying] I look at him and his eyes and his face-I don't even know where he (inaudible at 00:28:20).

[crying] And right now I feel like I would give anything, anything to go back to even when he wasn't doing chores and wasn't looking-wasn't working full-time. I would give anything to go back and sit with him and have him hold me, which is so messed-up. After what he's done, I should say, "I never want to see you again," and be done.

[crying] I can't erase-the night before he left, he wanted to print something for me. The weekend before he left, I was sick. [00:29:01] He brought me Sudafed while I was in bed.

THERAPIST: He has loving feelings, too, for you.

CLIENT: [crying] But this isn't love!

THERAPIST: It's not loving, what he's doing, but he has loving feelings. He feels more like he's like a little boy who is, again, always finding the backdoor, the easy way out of things. He has loving feelings but he has so, so much difficulty being in reality and (ph) life that he retreats to these fantasy places, including sexual ones.

CLIENT: [crying] Why? He said didn't enjoy it. I said, "What are you thinking when you're looking at something like that?" He said, "I had this (inaudible at 00:29:48) reaction that I wanted sex." How do you even...?

THERAPIST: Yeah. It's an ordinary human need and desire. [00:30:02] But it's not integrated in him. It's not a part, sort of something he's wanting to work on in the whole of a relationship, where you establish safety and trust (inaudible at 00:30:13) and where he works on connectiveness [sic] with you.

People look at porn sometimes. It's not extremely unusual. It's very different than if he were actually having an affair. It sometimes becomes the way, when husband and wife are not-something's not getting addressed and above-ground and shared between the two of them, one or the other finds this other way, this outlet for it.

But that's his persistent pattern and theme. Even as things are getting worse, rather than continuing to work on it, he's going further and further backdoor-ish. That's what's such a betrayal.

CLIENT: [crying] But he's not even just looking at porn online. [00:31:00]

THERAPIST: And Match.

CLIENT: [crying] It sounds like he's looking at-

THERAPIST: Dating.

CLIENT: [crying] He says it's not-

THERAPIST: And Match (crosstalk at 00:31:05) to me the biggest betrayal of everything you've said, even besides looking at a picture of a vagina. A picture is just a picture. The idea of actually dating somebody is a very, very, very different thing.

CLIENT: He says that it was a-how do I know that if someone had told him, "I saw that you were looking for casual sex."

THERAPIST: Yeah, it doesn't matter! If you set up a profile on Match.com, he would be totally, totally betrayed. That's a betraying thing to do. You don't do that when you're married.

CLIENT: [crying] But the other one feels so much worse. It sounds like he never did anything with it. But the thought process would be horrific enough.

And with this other one, he not only thought about it and did it, but when he got kicked off which I don't even know if that's true he reset his password and got back on.

THERAPIST: [It's just definitely something] (ph) he was doing. Yeah. He's trying to tell you that it's not something he was really doing or it was accidental, he was disgusted. [00:32:02] I don't think that's true. He may be in part disgusted with himself he's in conflict about it but in part, he's very excited and, again, not finding a way of bringing this as part of a loving relationship with you.

CLIENT: [crying] The worst part is I wanted that to be a part of our relationship.

THERAPIST: I know you did. I know you did.

CLIENT: [crying] He's molesting me in our bed. He can't tell me the truth. It's not even like he was constantly having-

THERAPIST: You're not even close to being there, yeah.

CLIENT: [crying] He's not even having conversations where he'd say, "Ramona, I'm so frustrated. We're not having sex. Is there way we can start to work on that along with everything else, or is there any way we can-just cuddles every-"

THERAPIST: Yes, Ramona. He was not trying in any adult way to say, "Can we talk about this?"

CLIENT: [crying] (inaudible at 00:32:58) And then I think, "Am I that repulsive that he couldn't..." And I look at that picture and I see this woman and her nails and I...

[crying] Yesterday, Emma made me go to the grocery store on (inaudible at 00:33:19) and I thought to myself, I don't know if people are honest on these things. He clearly is. But she lives where I live. She's his age. I could be walking past her at any moment.

[crying] It showed he didn't send any (ph) messages and he says all he ever saw was her picture.

THERAPIST: Responded, yeah. So that's something [to know] (ph).

CLIENT: [crying] And I said, "What do you want out of this?" I told him I thought he was sick, that he had a problem, that there was something very, very, very wrong. [00:34:00] He says he knows that and that he's told Dr. Bourd about all this except for this most recent one, because he said he did it on Tuesday after his session.

THERAPIST: Which one was that? The most recent one? Match?

CLIENT: The Book.

THERAPIST: Book.

CLIENT: [crying] So I guess he's going to tell him about that tomorrow.

[crying] But I said, "What do you want out of this? What are you...?" He keeps saying he wants this separation to be a positive, he wants to work really hard-six days ago?

THERAPIST: But he's self-sabotaging. It's like he's destroying the whole thing, almost unconsciously [on purpose] (ph).

CLIENT: [crying] He says that it was a pop-up ad that he followed. He says Match is the only one that he went to. [00:35:00]

[crying] (inaudible at 00:35:01)

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: [crying] I was always asking him to talk. I was there and asking him to talk to me. Going to couples'. You don't start looking for someone to randomly have sex with or to start dating because your wife criticizes you for not doing chores or for not...

[crying] I want to call him. I want explanations. I want answers. I want...

[crying] My family keeps saying, "Don't call him. This isn't going to help you. You're just hurting yourself. He's not remorseful."

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: [crying] I asked, when I met with him, I started by saying, "Is there anything you want to tell me, Ivan? [00:36:00] I'm finding some things out. Is there anything you want to talk about?" Three times, he said no. He shook his head.

He says he's been talking with Dr. Bourd about these other websites and that eventually, when he had dealt with it, he would tell me, when he was over it, that he was going to tell me about it.

THERAPIST: Ramona, we have about seven minutes. I want to just to attend to your requests at the beginning (crosstalk at 00:36:31).

CLIENT: [crying] No, I know. I know.

THERAPIST: ... help you (crosstalk at 00:36:35)...

CLIENT: [crying] I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: Why do you even feel you have to apologize? What are you apologizing for?

CLIENT: [crying] Because I'm usually (inaudible at 00:36:47) a put-together person. I'm not this... And I feel like I'm dying inside because I'm (inaudible at 00:36:57).

[crying] And this is what-and he does and he's like, "I still love you and you're the only one I want. I don't want anyone-" How do you do that?

THERAPIST: [I know] (ph), you're furious. And you're rightfully enraged at him (inaudible at 00:37:16).

CLIENT: [crying] I've never felt so much pain in my whole life. And part of me is so desperate to find any reason to let him come home, to forget about all of it, because I'm just so desperate.

THERAPIST: Desperately scared (inaudible at 00:37:41)?

CLIENT: [crying] I'm so scared. I don't know what's wrong with me but I miss him not like who he is or what he's been doing or any of that, but this isn't always him.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. I don't think that's something wrong with you. [00:38:01] You have heard me say this, I'm going to keep saying this to you: if you were ignoring the good parts and telling me the only thing he is, is a sex addict who has nothing else to him, that's just not true, actually. I think if that were true you never would have married him to begin with.

There are other parts of Ivan that you fell in love with, that were comforting to you that still are even comforting to you.

CLIENT: [crying] I kept staying (ph) with him, having this conversation, and I smell this same deodorant that he uses or whatever. I get all crazy and (inaudible at 00:38:34).

THERAPIST: That's not crazy!

CLIENT: [crying] I miss my husband but I don't know him anymore.

THERAPIST: It's not crazy. Ramona, people get divorced and (inaudible at 00:38:51) hatred, and ten years go pass and they get a whiff of the cologne their husband wore and (inaudible at 00:38:56) them to tears, because they miss that person.

CLIENT: [crying] I don't hate him. [00:39:00]

THERAPIST: That's my point. Even if there's hatred, people can still have loving, missing, longing feelings and tears.

CLIENT: [crying]

THERAPIST: Would it be helpful to you if I checked in with Dr. Bourd, just to get his two cents?

CLIENT: [crying] He doesn't know about this most recent one.

THERAPIST: And we don't even have to-I think the details of any specific incident is [sic] actually not as important as just the overall (inaudible at 00:39:33) that he does know about, in general.

I wonder if that would just feel a little more containing to know that he and I were going to talk, and I could share with you what he says Ivan is saying and what his understanding of it is now. I think it's still going to be confusing to you. Even if Dr. Bourd were to write a paper on Ivan's psyche, I think you're still in disbelief. It's almost hard to take in the reality of this being what's happening right now. [00:40:02]

No matter how many times someone explains it to you, I think it's an emotional disbelief. It's like someone telling you the sky is red, you can't understand how the sky turned red. I can tell you it's red, and I can tell you the chemical process about how it turned red, but you still will say, "But I don't get it. I don't get it. I need someone to explain," because it's an emotional, emotional betrayal and disbelief.

This kind of disbelief is what just takes time, and knowing that you have time and people in your life, right now including me, including your sister, including your parents who are going to be there for you and with you throughout this process, to continue to sort out these feelings, until you can start to believe what's happening.

Who knows where that leads you? But I think the first step is just trying to still wrap your mind around the sky being red.

CLIENT: [crying] Please don't let me take him back just because I miss him.

THERAPIST: I don't even hear you saying that you would do that right at this instant. [00:41:01] I hear you missing him and longing for him. I also hear you absolutely furious at him and totally betrayed.

So I think it's a process. And I'm (inaudible at 00:41:13) to keep reminding you to have all these feelings be a part of your experience, including the missing and loving, okay?

I think that's what he's trying to do, when he says to you, "I have these loving feelings and I want it to work out. But I also have this other side of me that I somehow haven't been able to bring in to the relationship." And yes, it's a problem. Yes, it's even disgusting. Maybe there's something he can't manage inside himself that he has to work on before you could have a chance of having a relationship again. He sounds interested in that. He is trying to keep in mind the reality of all the things that are happening.

CLIENT: But it's like he's Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I know. It's totally unintegrated [sic] totally, totally unintegrated [sic]. [00:42:00] And I think you're getting this moral, saintly, "That's disgusting," kind of attitude towards sexuality, "I love you and it's all my fault." And then you get this other side that's like he's [turned his side around] (ph) and all the other parts were there. Like the side that, "I like sex and it's exciting," or the side that's angry, and the side that feels bad for being so criticized all the time.

These are not integrated parts of him. I think Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde is a really, really good explanatory metaphor for a piece of what he's working through and what he will continue to work through. How does he get both of these parts to be all of him? Sometimes being hyper-moral or hyper-self-critical hides another side that's greedy, another side that really wants and desires. It's a defense against all this other stuff. We want to help normal wanting and desire and self-confidence to be part of his personality and not need such a hyper-defense on this side.

So you and I will continue to talk about all of this. I think checking with Dr. Bourd just helps, at this stage, a little more. I can share what he says.

CLIENT: Can you check in with him after tomorrow? After he [treats him] (ph)?

THERAPIST: After tomorrow? Yes. You mean after they have another appointment? Sure, I can definitely hold off. Okay?

And you, in the meantime, are just trying to sort of let yourself have time. Time makes a big difference right now. How you feel today is not going to be how you feel a week from now, is not going to be how you feel a week from then. And the intensity of the feelings will change. Know that this strong intensity won't last forever. You are in a horrible state of shock right now, Ramona. [00:44:01] This is shock. Things happening behind the scenes that you never imagined were going to be happening in your marriage. It's like a different person, it's not who you thought you were marrying.

CLIENT: I'm not making this is up. This is all wrong.

THERAPIST: These are betrayals, yes. These are things people have very strong feelings about and are really angry about when they happen. It's a long-standing pattern of betrayal. And things that he's bringing avoidantly [sic] into a secret hole, instead of addressing front-and-center and having be part of the relationship. That's happened over and over and over and over again. Even when you thought you were working on the relationship and it was getting better, it was happening in a deeper way.

CLIENT: [crying] But that's wrong, really. That's not my fault.

THERAPIST: That is wrong, yeah. That's not your fault. He's responsible for his behavior. He went on Match, that's his responsibility. Even if it was a pop-up ad, it's his responsibility that he clicked on it. [00:45:03]

Again, occasional pornography I have to tell you, in the interest I'm trying to be in the full spectrum of reality happens for people. It doesn't even mean people don't have reactions. I've sat with many couples where one or the other has been caught using pornography, the other one feels betrayed and upset, and there's a lot of feeling about it.

CLIENT: But that's different from creating a profile on Fuckbook.com and telling the world that you're looking for-that's different.

THERAPIST: Ramona, it's very, very different. That's my point. That is the range of ordinary and even when ordinary is extremely upsetting to people, extremely upsetting.

CLIENT: But that's wrong! Looking at porn is still wrong-

THERAPIST: It's a massive betrayal. What he's done is several steps above that. [00:46:01] Even Match, at the level of not just-it's of dating. These are betrayals. What he did about lying to you about graduate school is a massive betrayal, Ramona.

CLIENT: It's already over seven months since he started doing this stuff. He's like, "I was going to tell you eventually." It's the same as grad school, same as the loans. He'll tell you a couple years later and then we won't talk about it, but you need to get over it. I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: It's not okay. It's not okay and it's not your fault. You can be the most critical person in the world, and that doesn't make someone else do something. It's his responsibility to say, "I feel criticized," "I feel emasculated," or, "I feel like there's no room for me," or something along those lines. His responsibility to talk about that and communicate that and bring it above-ground. [00:47:00]

You've been asking. You've been working really, really hard to try and get things addressed and talked about. You got him a therapist, through me. You got yourself a therapist. You got couples' therapy, twice. You've been dragging him there, trying to have conversations about things. You've been trying to talk to him about even the most recent events!

CLIENT: He won't answer calls anymore. The fact that I was critical of those things, the fact-is that why he's doing all-is it my fault?

THERAPIST: He is avoidant in his character. He was this way before you met him, Ramona. I hate to break it to you that bluntly: you don't cause a person to deal with things in this way.

CLIENT: [crying] I just want to make sure that he's not looking for sex or dating or whatever, that he's not looking-I want to make sure that it's not because I really am this horrible...

THERAPIST: No. He finds the backdoor. That is what he does. [00:48:01] That is what he was doing at the very beginning of your relationship even, Ramona, without your knowing it.

CLIENT: I feel like I was critical and I was working on that. But I also supported him getting help and made sure that his problems are getting addressed. And I also was there to thank him every time he actually did do stuff and support him every time he was making progress. I don't understand.

THERAPIST: He's responsible for his own behavior. You're not. Okay?

CLIENT: I think I might need something. I haven't been able to sleep. I think I might need that, and-

THERAPIST: And I know when I raise it, it's really loaded for you...

CLIENT: But I-

THERAPIST: Okay. It's so helpful for people. High-functioning people even can take it sometimes, you're just taking it to help with sleep. If you're having trouble falling asleep, it takes a couple hours to fall asleep, you can take half a pill and it's out of your system. [00:49:01] It's not a permanent thing. It's in your control, it's in your hands.

Even if it got you a couple good nights' sleep, Ramona, there's one thing that I worry about is when people get sleep-deprived, everything feels that much worse. So I think even if we can help you get a few good nights' sleep in a row, it might then help you have your own better container inside and you won't need it, then, for a while until something else hits you and it feels really strong again. It's an as-needed thing, so you don't have to worry about any permanent thing in your system at all.

You don't have addiction history. It is habit-forming, for some people. You don't have any of that, so I don't think there's going be any problem prescribing it. Sometimes PCPs are even willing to prescribe it. Do you have a primary care?

CLIENT: I do, but she's associated with Northwestern, so I don't know if she can really see me anymore.

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:49:48), yeah.

CLIENT: Maybe I should try a sleep-it's not that I can't sleep, it's the anxiety.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yep! And something like Ativan addresses anxiety and it creates muscle relaxation. [00:50:01] So it does both.

Do you want to see if I can...?

CLIENT: I think, maybe.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:50:09) for you? Okay.

CLIENT: I also want to talk to my friends.

THERAPIST: Okay. Another thing you can try, in the meantime, have you ever tried Benadryl?

CLIENT: Not to sleep.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Should I be?

THERAPIST: I would recommend that-because that's over-the-counter, you don't even need a prescription, might not even need the Ativan. They're starting to prescribe Benadryl in a version called-they call it-full name's called Vistaril. It's the same exact thing as Benadryl, just marketed in a different way for sleep, just as a sleep aid.

It's also not something you have to take all the time. You can take one pill at night. It'll just help you conk out, get a good night's sleep, and then you can reassess the next day. You never have to take it again if you don't want to, it's out of your system.

That's something, if you want to pick up at CVS, just take one 25 milligram pill they usually come in 25 milligrams. [00:51:03] It's an antihistamine, technically. You know it's for allergy reaction, but a side effect is that it makes people sleepy.

CLIENT: Yes, yes, yes, yes.

THERAPIST: So if I were you, I might just try that one night.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Get a ten-pack, take one, see how it feels.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: And it might just be some short-term relief. You might not even have to see a psycho-pharm person. That might be the way to start, and we'll see how that works.

CLIENT: Okay. Okay.

THERAPIST: Do you have time to get to CVS today or drugstore?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Okay. Shoot me an e-mail; let me know how it works, okay?

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: How you felt, how you feel the next day...

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: ...if it helped you sleep.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Take it about a half-hour before you're planning to go to bed.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: And then at about a half-hour, get into bed and go to sleep. So don't take it too early, because it'll make you sleepy and then you'll lose the effectiveness.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: You want to take it right as you're getting ready to go to bed and try.

CLIENT: Okay. Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay? Let me know how that goes and I'll see you Thursday, okay? [00:52:01]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. Good luck today!

CLIENT: Thanks.

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