TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: [Why do] (ph) you apologize?

CLIENT: It's so automatic to say, "Sorry."

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:00:15) on yourself.

CLIENT: Sorry?

THERAPIST: So hard on yourself.

CLIENT: [sighs]

THERAPIST: So where are you?

CLIENT: I don't know anymore, because things got really bad with Ivan. Trying to force him to talk about it, trying to get some answers, trying to force him to meet. And he was really cold, really distant. I guess I would say not remorseful, not compassionate, not anything remotely in the right direction.

And then yesterday, he's e-mailing me, "These are resources I've found online. I've been researching and I'm reading these books." [00:01:09] [sighs] "Take this survey on the five love languages. I called and left Dr. Farrow (sp?) a voice-mail, I wanted to see if she could meet with us." Polar opposite. [sighs]

THERAPIST: Can I just back up for one second what you were saying, you said the words, "I've been trying to force Ivan."

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: So what does that look like (crosstalk at 00:01:34)?

CLIENT: It means I'm calling and he's not answering.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: It means I'm saying, "I have to meet with you, I have to get some answers, I'm going crazy," and he's like, "I'm not sure that's a good idea."

THERAPIST: So even just one thing I think you want to try again, "I have to meet with you. I have to get some answers," really has to push him away, instead of saying, "Can we meet? I would really like to talk."

CLIENT: I know, I know, but at the same time, it's not [laughs] if I was in a different place, I wouldn't say this but it's like crap. [laughs] [00:02:06] After everything that he's done and that I had to discover that he couldn't confess to, even? I mean, it would have been bad enough if he had come clean on his own. But he didn't even do that.

So after all of that, and the avoidance, and the... For me to say, "I have to get some answers," I think is fair, even if it's going to push him-I know that it's not getting me what I want, but I think it's fair.

THERAPIST: I agree with you, it's fair. I totally agree that it's fair. It's fair for you to be really, really angry. I'm just saying to you that it's not going to be effective in getting a conversation to happen. So if you actually want to talk to him, if someone asks me, "I have to have a conversation with you," it sounds like a command and it sounds like something I do not want to do.

CLIENT: I don't even know how I put it, at this point. I've been begging him to speak. I've been begging him to-like, "What happened?" [00:03:00] I've been begging for very specific answers, because I'm still trying to wrap my head around all of it and find out what it actually is.

And I've been begging him to apologize. And I've been the one still saying, "Ivan, that conversation never happened," and I feel like a broken record! I feel like I'm holding a grudge. I feel like he's waiting so long, and now it's like with all the other stuff, [laughs] after so much time goes by, how many times can I keep saying, "Have to have that conversation. Have to apologize. Have to deal with it." How long can you go on doing that?

And it's obviously wrong to do, because even if he did apologize in response to one of those statements...

THERAPIST: How would you believe it, at this point?

CLIENT: ...how would I believe it, and...

THERAPIST: I think he knows that. If you're begging for it and forcing it out of him, it has no meaning. It's a throwaway...

CLIENT: I know that.

THERAPIST: ...you won't believe it, it's not going to help your relationship, (crosstalk at 00:03:56).

CLIENT: And it's not the same as if he had stood up and...

THERAPIST: And that I think he's trying to say to you, "If it's going to happen, I have to work on it privately and come back to you about it." [00:04:05] Which, actually, makes a lot of sense. I think that's the only way you'll and then (ph) it's believable, if it really comes from the more genuine place rather than it being forced out of him. I mean, I think he's right about that. Do you see that?

CLIENT: He doesn't say that. He's certainly not that articulate. He's enraged. I mean, Monday? Just enraged.

THERAPIST: You saw him?

CLIENT: Oh, yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: He's looking at me and I'm sobbing and he's like, "What?" And then yesterday, he's like, [laughs] "I'm reading these books, here are these websites that I found that are really great. Dr. Bourd (sp?) gave me some websites about escape fantasy and I'm working with him, and I'm calling..." It's cruel.

THERAPIST: He has lots of different feelings, just as you do including really, really angry at him and then also crying and vulnerable and just want him back. [00:05:00] He's doing both, as well.

CLIENT: But the difference is-I know this comes from a place of anger, and maybe it's not fair and maybe it is critical, but the difference is he's the one on these websites. He's the one molesting me in my sleep. So of course I would have mixed feelings. Of course I wouldn't know how to react. And, I mean, these websites started so long ago. He has had time to process and...

THERAPIST: I totally agree with you.

CLIENT: ...I'm blindsided. He's known what he's been doing.

THERAPIST: I totally agree. I totally agree. I totally agree. I'm only just sharing he's going to have mixed feelings right now, too.

CLIENT: So I talked with him about what Dr. Bourd had to say. And he said that he did most of the talking and that he was very explicit and told him everything that was going on. And his Life After Ramona folder, the whole [laughs] the whole business.

And he said that Dr. Bourd explained that he's counseled men who've used porn before, counseled men who've done these types of things before, but their reactions have been different what Ivan's reaction is. [00:06:09] And that he thinks it's consistent in that it's the escape fantasy, the avoidance, consistent with everything else that's been going on.

That he said that Ivan was very angry and a lot of this came from possibly a place of anger from not getting what he perceived he wasn't getting in the relationship. Which is true, to some extent. It doesn't feel fair, because Ivan could have had a one minute conversation with me, even, and said, "I know it's hard for you to trust me. It might be hard for you to be vulnerable, especially in something like having sex or even letting me in further in any way, shape, or form, but I wonder if we can work on it a little bit side by side. [00:07:04] I wonder if we could even talk about what that would look like," anything.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. And I hope you understand, also, that Dr. Bourd is not justifying it.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: In other words, he's just trying to explain that he thinks that's what-because Ivan has such a hard time addressing anything on the surface that what he did when he-of course he's feeling like one of the (inaudible at 00:07:30), it sounds like he was having is really wanting a sexual life with his wife. A marriage with no sex is not really a marriage. There's something awry if there's not sexual behavior happening.

CLIENT: But the thing is, I told-no one's going to believe me or think this, but Ivan wasn't the only one not having sex. And it's not like I wanted to have no sex and no-I got to the point where I felt like I couldn't even kiss my husband, because every time there was any level of physical contact, it was, "But it's not sex, but it's not this, but it's not often, it's been so long since this happened." [00:08:05]

On top of which, this man is lying to me about huge chunks of his life. I mean, you want me to be even more vulnerable to him-

THERAPIST: Yes. Ramona, Ramona, I-I don't want you to. I don't want you to. I'm not saying that.

CLIENT: I'm saying it's not fair, because I was giving that up, too. And it's not like that was-I didn't feel like it was my choice. I felt like, "What kind of idiot lets her husband lie to her and then says, 'Okay, let's go have sex. We can talk about it next month, next year, or never.'?"

Sorry. I'm not angry at you.

THERAPIST: No, I don't think you're hearing that I totally agree with you. Ivan can be having his internal experience and it doesn't mean you should be doing anything differently to accommodate this internal experience. He's only trying to help Ivan understand that he's feeling he wants to emotionally connected. He wants to be erotically, sexually connected and intimate. It's not happening. [00:09:01]

And so instead of what a mature person would do is start taking about why it's not happening and saying, "This is important to me. Can we work on this together? How do we become closer? How do you trust me again? I want to work on it," which he didn't do because he avoids, he avoids, he avoids, he avoids, he avoids at every time, he's avoidant (ph) in the whole story you've discussed. And then he goes-and when he's feeling deprived, then he goes and takes it anyway, in secret.

So it is not a justification. It's a very, very immature, unhealthy thing he did. And it hurts you. He's responsible for it. I think Dr. Bourd is only trying to help him understand that the context is there's something he wants that makes it-of course, what a normal thing to want! He just handled it really poorly. The better way of trying to get what you want is talking about it and working on it with you in couples' therapy, which he never really sounded like he was able much to do. [00:10:01]

CLIENT: No, but he did bring up-I mean, we talked about this recently and he said, "But did have that couples' session where we talked about physical intimacy. And you told me afterward that you were upset that we were prioritizing it." Which I was, because we went all those months and we worked on communications building skills and what to do when Ivan withdraws and what do when I criticize. And we worked on all of that stuff and we didn't work on the elephant in the room directly.

And I understand. Dr. Farrow said, "You guys are having trouble," we couldn't even sit on the couch together. We couldn't dive in to all of that. And I understand that, but I guess I felt so, I don't know...

THERAPIST: This is where it's two different experiences that have legitimacy.

You're feeling like [coughs] excuse me "We didn't even talk about this massive, massive betrayal that started our relationship. How on Earth do I feel like I want to have sex with you, from that place?" [00:11:02] It still feels, to you, sort of artificial, it sounds like, and meaningless to start having this sex conversation when you haven't talked about that stuff yet.

CLIENT: It wasn't even like we had a whole session about that and then said, "Maybe we can start integrating a conversation about bringing a physical," I just-

THERAPIST: I get it. I get it. I get it.

His experience is, "Okay, but I tried to bring up sex. I tried to talk about it. And you criticize me for bringing it up. So no matter what I do, I try to do what you're asking me to do and I get criticized. So I don't do it, and I get criticized. No matter what, I get criticized."

CLIENT: I get that, but she...

THERAPIST: That's his experience.

CLIENT: ...she was very, very clear I mean, crystal clear that anything from if we were going to make out, if we were going to cuddle on the couch, if we were going to have sex, that there needed to be some kind of brief, "How do you feel about doing this?" or "This is what I'd like to do, are you open to that? What would be comfortable-"

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Words with it, yes, yes, yep.

CLIENT: Any type of words before it happened and we were on the same page with that. [00:12:03] And Ivan still wasn't doing that. And I surely wasn't going to initiate that, because we're still [laughs] not talking about the issues!

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:12:11)

CLIENT: But I would have-I could have been receptive if he had said-maybe I would have turned him down, maybe we would have negotiated, maybe we would have done something in between, like what he wanted and what I felt comfortable with. That's what's the most upsetting, he never gave me the chance to even...

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. And I think his perspective is that sometimes when he feels like he's doing what you're asking, he still gets criticized.

So there was an exchange you'd written about in your-when you were journaling, last time you [sent me] (ph) your journaling, where you actually said you asked him, "Can you tell me-what are you have problems within me? I want to know what your problems are. What are you mad at? I'm telling you what I'm mad at, can you tell me what you're mad at in me?" [00:13:01]

So he proceeded to tell you what he was mad at and disappointed. And the end of your journaling was, "How dare him [sic]? Doesn't he know this is horrible timing to say such a thing to me?"

So it felt like you asked him to share that, so he says, "Okay, I'll share it." And then you tell him he's awful for having shared, and what is he thinking sharing it now?

That doesn't excuse any of what he's doing. He needs to talk to you about that. "I can't get it right by you, Ramona. No matter what I do, I get it wrong." It does not in any way excuse the back door thing, which is a bigger in my mind much bigger offense. It's not a kind of working through, "Okay, here's my experience, here's your experience. Here's my experience, here's your experience. Let's try to figure out how to get more on the same page."

There's a very, very big set of offenses happening, which include lying and bordering on cheating. And loud, extreme avoidances of having a relationship. And I hear you, that you're saying-the hope is that if he said, "Ramona, can I hold your hand and sit on the couch with you? [00:14:05] How would you feel about that?" Even if you said, "Thank you for asking, that means a lot to me that you said that. I don't know that I feel comfortable today, because we still haven't talked about this. Can we talk about that sometime?" That that exchange would happen.

He might be afraid if he tried to ask you, you'd say, "Are you kidding me? How dare you think you can hold my hand right now?" So that he'd get daggers back at him.

So he already avoids a lot because I think he's afraid, in his own history if he brings things out, something really bad happens. And I think he feels like sometimes that gets confirmed with you. That not matter what, it gets criticized.

CLIENT: I guess I want to-I asked at what he was angry at me about because after he molested, he-I mean, I've never seen him so angry, so cruel. And I'm thinking that part of was he was angry that he did that to me. But he was nonetheless[00:15:00]

THERAPIST: He's angry at himself but projecting it into you.

CLIENT: And I think he was angry and frustrated to some extent, because he-because maybe he did feel-I mean, it's not an excuse for not having a conversation but maybe he did feel like he could never even ask for that. And maybe he was angry that part of what he did led to a position in which I didn't want to be vulnerable. I didn't want to trust him. I certainly didn't want to have sex with him.

But I asked him what he was so angry at me about, and when he said, "I think your stress and anxiety levels are a problem and that they're really unhealthy for you," in that moment, it felt like-I know that's true! My gosh, I'm here, I know that's true. I've been on Prozac in-I know that's true. You've told me I have an anxiety disorder. I know, personally, I take on responsibility for a lot of things [laughs] that aren't mind. I know that I have-I'm not happy when I get a 97. I know that about myself and I know that's not healthy.

But in that instant when I am stressed to the max because my husband is molesting me in my sleep and because I can't trust him, on top of which I thought we were making progress, to say, "Boy, you're really stressed"? [00:16:05] It's like, "Are you freaking kidding?" I'm sorry. I'm not mad at you. I'm just mad that he-

THERAPIST: Or you might be!

CLIENT: No, I'm not! I know I'm just saying that because I know I'm really emotional right now. I'm mad because I know that it's true. But I'm also mad that I thought that that was the most inappropriate context in which to do it. Because it's not fair to lie to your spouse and have a Fuckbook profile, and then say, "Well, I think you have trust issues."

That's what it is! And it's-I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: What do you want him to say, then, when you say, "So what are you mad at me about?" Is there any answer that's right to that question?

CLIENT: I was trying to figure out why he's-where all this venom comes from. Because I guess in my perspective, I'm not-I know I have faults in the marriage. I know I have faults as a person, before I ever met Ivan. [00:17:01] I know I have tons of things to work on. But I also-

THERAPIST: His venom in the moment didn't make any sense.

CLIENT: It doesn't make any sense!

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:17:08)

CLIENT: And in a situation where he molests me, how could he possible-where would I have any blame or guilt or anything in that situation? Just like I'm not going to say, "Ivan, I'm so angry that you molested me. And I'm so angry at you because you weren't taking out the laundry." It has no context.

I didn't feel like we were having a conversation about anything you've ever been upset with me [laughs] in this marriage or global things that I need to deal with. You don't get to molest someone and then say, "You do know you have a long history of being stressed and anxious, right? That's a problem and you should work on that." I thought that that was bullshit. I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: You're helping me understand in some ways that's not-your question was not what I was understanding your question was.

CLIENT: No, no!

THERAPIST: You're asking about the in the heat of the moment, the rage.

CLIENT: Yes!

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:18:01]

CLIENT: Why is there a month and a half after he molests me where he's spewing anger? And there's no remorse, there's no apology, there's no conversation.

THERAPIST: And besides, if your spouse is stressed, anxious, and depressed, you might eventually get angry at them for that. But the starting point would be to be concerned and say, "I'm worried about you. How can we help you with this? What can I do? I'm noticing this. And give me a hug. Let me help you calm down and don't be so hard on yourself." That's the starting point of responding to someone being anxious.

CLIENT: Yes! And I also think-I know that there is a component of me that if Ivan had never existed, I would still have anxiety and I would still be more stressed and I would still have these perfectionist ideals. I would still have those issues, but I don't hear Ivan ever saying, "Anyone would be stressed out and anxious after something like this was done to them, after a huge betrayal. And you already are struggling with this, and I'm so sorry to have..." [00:19:03] It's not Ivan's fault that I'm anxious, but you can't...

THERAPIST: It's not the context for (ph) what's happening right now. It sounds like he has so much self-disgust and shame over what he's doing, that it's so intolerable to take that in that he's projecting it into you. And feeling sort of disdainful and rageful at you, when it's not about you. It's about his own feelings towards himself.

So all of this, I'm just sharing little pieces of some (inaudible at 00:19:39) just to sort of understand. You've asked me, "What's going on with him? I don't understand. I don't understand." And again, I don't ever expect that even I could give you the intellectual explanation and it's not going to settle this feeling of disbelief.

But some of it is just trying to share this is what he's doing inside himself, telling himself, "Well, if I'm not going to get it this way, then I'll take it this way," because he can't. [00:20:00] He doesn't have the capacity yet to talk about it and get it in a mature way, get his needs met through words.

This is one of the things you keep saying, in every example, is there are no words. If he could just share a few words about wanting to be physical. Set an emotional tone with words. If he could just say a heartfelt, "I'm sorry," or, "I understand how angry you are. It's not okay that I did this." And say, "I know (ph). I'm working on it."

He goes back and forth, like he can do that. And then he gets to this enraged and rage projecting place where he's putting it all into you, which is not fair. It has nothing to do with you.

CLIENT: Did you talk to Dr. Bourd at all?

THERAPIST: I didn't yet.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I called him and he actually e-mailed me back and I haven't yet responded to that e-mail. He didn't say, "Let's not talk," but he had some question that I think are legitimate for him to talk about with Ivan that make sense about what kind of communication he and I should have from this point forward. [00:21:04]

I think he's feeling that if Ivan knows that we have an open line of communication that Ivan might not tell him certain things. That he's worried it's almost like he was getting tattled on. What if you find out about something more that Ivan hasn't even told you, because Dr. Bourd has told me?

It doesn't sound, though, like Ivan is necessarily feeling like that. He (crosstalk at 00:21:30).

CLIENT: He's telling me what's happening...

THERAPIST: He's telling you and he's telling Dr. Bourd everything...

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: ...even though he knows that we have permission at this point.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: He may just want to touch base with Ivan to make sure Ivan feels, at this point-one of the reasons is if you're thinking about separating as a couple, it's a different... I don't know how to describe this.

Often, when individual therapists are seeing two members of a couple, there's no communication at all. Sometimes it seems appropriate to have communication between the two therapists, but that's not-I would that's about 20% of the time. [00:22:04] And then if they're not together, it's even less appropriate.

It's more like we still have to just be thoughtful about what our aim and hope is about getting you each to be able to hear about each other's therapies. Does that make sense?

CLIENT: Are you saying it's inappropriate because he's not living in the same apartment, because he's...

THERAPIST: I wouldn't even use the word "inappropriate." I would say we're just trying to think about what the pros and cons are. And one of the cons is if your privacy gets violated. Sometimes when people are apart, they feel like they need more privacy around this experience.

So I think that's what he wants to check in with Ivan about. I (inaudible at 00:22:50) want to check in with you about-if Dr. Bourd asks me, "What's Ramona's experience? How's she doing? What are you sensing from her?" [00:23:00] Does it feel like that is helpful to be shared, or does it fell like, "Oh, this actually feels like I want it to be safely and privately in my experience. I don't want Ivan to hear things about me filtered from me through Dr. Bourd to him."

What I was going to say back to Dr. Bourd I got this message late last night is that I think for you it actually would be helpful for us to touch base at least another time right now and sort of then take it from there. I'm respectful if Ivan feels like it's not helpful to him. He has the right to rescind the communication at any time. But I do feel like-my sense was from you that it would be helpful.

CLIENT: Ivan is telling me everything that's going on in his-and he's saying that he's trying to figure out with Dr. Bourd exactly what is going on and that he's looking for those answers. And so I guess I'm looking to you to help me figure it out, or I'm looking to Ivan to literally tell me what's going on and what's being said. [00:24:00]

I'm desperate to find out what's going on because [sighs] I mean, who wouldn't be? And I know Ivan said he felt very violated that learned all this stuff, that I saw his e-mails.

And I understand that to some extent. If Ivan went in-there is nothing I have ever written [laughs] nothing in any of my e-mails, nothing on my computer anywhere that I would have any problem with him reading. I have nothing to hide. But I can understand that feeling.

But at the same time I feel bad about this, in a way but I'm not sorry. Because Ivan even said, "I told Dr. Bourd about this and I didn't tell him I was going to tell you ever, but in the back of my mind, I wanted to make sure it was never going to happen again and that I was dealing with it before I told you that it had happened."

And I'm thinking to myself, "This is the same bullshit as it was with seminary and everything." How do you do that to someone? How do you let a year go by and say, "By the way, all this happened. [00:25:02] You were completely betrayed and never knew it"? It's just like, "No."

THERAPIST: Yeah. In other words, his learn time and lag time is slow right now, Ramona. It took him three years to tell you about anthropology?

CLIENT: No, it wasn't quite that long.

THERAPIST: Two years?

CLIENT: Um...

THERAPIST: A year?

CLIENT: Yeah, it was over a-I mean, problems started before he left, so maybe a couple years total, from when he started failing classes to when I actually found out.

THERAPIST: Okay. So that's a long time.

CLIENT: That's a long time.

THERAPIST: So this time around, it's how long? When was the first...?

CLIENT: [sighs] It was three days, total.

THERAPIST: [It was] (ph) in February?

CLIENT: It was February 13th, it was June 2nd, and it was August-it was September 9th.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And so maybe this time, it would have taken him a year to tell you, had you not found out this way. [00:26:00] My guess is he would have eventually told you, because that's kind of what he does. It's almost like he feels too guilty that he then has to come out and admit it.

But that's a long lag time, too. It's sort of like, "Okay, then what? What's going to happen and be the next thing that's behind your back?"

CLIENT: It feels like he takes control. In any type of relationship, someone does something that is wrong in whatever capacity. And then you apologize. The other person works on-you ask for forgiveness. The other person works on forgiving you. You process it. You deal with it. You work to move forward.

And I feel like Ivan has always robbed me of that process. And then he's like, "Well, you're really hanging on to that," like, "Oh, you're still asking for that conversation? I tried."

It's insanity. You can't be dealing with stuff from a year ago because you're always finding out...

THERAPIST: It is insanity. Do you hear [how you're] (ph) making your own case? [00:27:00]

CLIENT: I do, it's just...

So part of me thought about what you said about pornography, that you have seen couples who come in and one of them is doing that. And while I think-my personal beliefs, that I know not everyone shares, that pornography is wrong and that there's no excuse for that or need for that, it's different from, I don't know, materials that you and wife would use. It's different. Watching someone else have sex and-I don't think there's any place for that in a marriage, that's my personal belief.

Even if there's no sex, I think-there should have been a conversation. There should have been this and that. But I also think that viewing porn while I think it's wrong is still very, very, very different from setting up profiles.

THERAPIST: It's very different.

CLIENT: So if there was one date at which he had viewed porn, that would be different from three different dates in which he is setting up profiles. And I made him explain...

THERAPIST: [Or having] (ph) online sex. It's a step towards having an affair. In other words, it's very different than pornography. [00:28:00] It's actually having a place where you're having an interaction with someone.

CLIENT: And he said he had no interaction with anyone except for the one site, where he says he watched four fifteen-second videos of people talking about sex. Fully-clothed, holding sex toys, talking about... Click or go to the private room or whatever, "Do you want to do this?" It required no interface from him.

Which is still disturbing. He's like, "My password for that was, 'Why am I doing this?'." He said, "I was so disgusted."

But I need to know in my-I've asked him, "Ivan, I think you're fantasizing about the 'What if?', LookingForFun087, what if you were looking for casual sex and discrete relationships and one-on-one and the online... I think part of you was fantasizing what if I didn't exist and what if you..." [0:29:00]

It means he (ph) wouldn't have been that type of person when he was single, but what if he could have been? And I wonder if that's what the fantasy is. And he says, "I was fantasizing about escaping into sex. I really just wanted to have sex with you. I've been fantasizing about you."

And I said, "I don't know what this is, but this isn't some romantic, 'I'm so desperate to have sex with my wife, I just want to think about having sex, period.'"

So I guess I want to know from Dr. Bourd, I want to know from Ivan, I want somebody who is objective and who understands these types of-to tell me: is he fantasizing about having an affair?

THERAPIST: Okay. That's a very specific question.

CLIENT: First of all, I don't know if I can believe him. And second of all, I don't know if he actually knows.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, yeah. And it sounds very defensive when he says, "Oh, no, no, no, I was fantasizing about you." I would not believe that, that doesn't sound like it's where it's coming form.

CLIENT: He's saying that in general.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:30:00] It feels like he's covering it up.

CLIENT: It does.

THERAPIST: But I don't think that that necessarily means, on the other hand, that he's fantasizing about having an affair. An affair, oddly, is not very avoidant. It is avoidant of the issues (ph) in your marriage, but it becomes this real thing that you then have to address. It's a real, live person who has feelings, who might get attached to you, who's also going to want-

CLIENT: I know that.

THERAPIST: Right? So I just don't think he's there. He's in the place of trying to find secret, private, not-real person place to bring parts of himself that he feels very deeply in conflict about. It sounds like he's interested, sexually, but he may be very critical of himself, like, "Why do I want these things?" or "Why do I find that attractive?"

I think, sometimes, when people have very rigid, rigid beliefs about sexuality, it creeps out in these bubble, secret places. [00:31:00] This is what happens in the church, for example, where there's this rigid, rigid view, in certain religions particularly Catholicism around priests marrying. So that it becomes something that is forbidden in the life. So then what happens is it creeps out in these very inappropriate and destructive ways.

CLIENT: I know that, but Ivan is telling-because I've been asking so many questions and Ivan is saying I wouldn't necessarily believe anything he's saying right now but I saw it (ph) and he didn't message anyone. He didn't respond to any messages. He never actually created a profile on Match. He...

THERAPIST: Yeah. So that also matters to me. So if you're asking me about the spectrum of levels of betrayal? A full-on affair is full, full, full betrayal. Looking at "Penthouse Magazine" where there are boobs? A lot of people do that. It doesn't mean it's good. You may have a different opinion about it than another person, and people have the right to have a different sense of morality and ethics about that. [00:32:05] I'm just saying that a lot of people do that and there are a lot of people who wouldn't feel like that's ending a marriage worthy.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: I don't think you even think that.

CLIENT: There's a difference in the...

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: I'm sorry, but I'm unbelievably, psychologically disturbed about his Fuckbook profile. And he says he saw one picture and I saw the picture, because it's the person he clicked "accept." And he says, "It wasn't arousing. I was disgusted. Once I saw that picture, I got off of there."

THERAPIST: I just don't think that's true. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: I don't know. What do you think?

THERAPIST: I think it probably was arousing to him! [I mean] (ph), that was probably why he clicked on it.

CLIENT: He didn't see it.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: He saw he had a friend request, he says, and he clicked "accept" and then he saw it.

THERAPIST: Oh, okay. [00:33:00]

CLIENT: Because I'm saying, "Were you physically aroused? What the hell was...?" Sorry. "What is going through your mind?" And he's like, "It was disgusting." Of course I want to believe that! I'm his wife, I want to think that maybe he does have a fantasy about having sex, in general, and maybe he took it a million steps too far. But there's a difference-I don't know! It's so borderline, almost.

And how do I know if-when he created this profile and he's clicking on this things that he wants, that he's looking for, and I'm pretty sure "discrete relationships" is code for "affair." How do I know if he was just-he's like, "I had to click on in it to set up the thing. I just wanted to see what it was. I was just escaping. I was fantasizing." How do I know the difference between that and what he was really thinking?

THERAPIST: And that he's (crosstalk at 00:33:53) have an affair.

CLIENT: Or even he was really planning to have online exchange of any type, any type of contact. [00:34:01] How do I know the difference? How do I trust him? Of course I want to believe this, because it would be the last saving piece.

I also know that for me and I know a lot of people don't share this but for me, the thought process of having an affair, fantasizing about having sex with another person? [sighs] I'm not saying that someone who-the passing thought of-I don't know, a passing thought would be different from really thinking about it and creating profile that you'd actually use. If he was having online exchange about sex or online exchange about anything, to me, that's just as real, and I'm done.

THERAPIST: That's where you the draw the line, yeah, (crosstalk at 00:34:40).

CLIENT: Because I do think that-I'm sorry, but I'm not a very good one right now, but I am a Christian and I do believe what it says in the Bible about looking at a woman with lust in your heart is very much the same as... It's just not okay. [00:35:00]

[crying] Okay, so this is something I want to keep private and personal, because it's so bizarre. But yesterday, when I was thinking about this and I'm thinking, "I really was very critical. I can see why he would feel emasculated." It might have been impossible for him not to have, going from, "I'm going to be a professor," to, "The best thing I'm doing is working at Subway." But on top of which, his wife is saying, "Hey, this isn't what we agreed to, it's not okay. It's not okay." Of course he felt emasculated. He felt criticized.

I think part of what I was-even if it was legitimate, he was still very criticized. And I know I was harsh sometimes with words. And I didn't use the interpersonal, "This is what I need," as opposed to, "I can't deal with this anymore!" And I know that I was anxious and stressed. And I know that I was worked-up about school and very, very busy with school. I know that we weren't having sex after all the lies. I know that he was very critical. He always wanted more and more, and I always felt being criticized instead of complimented. [00:36:00]

But I look back and I had this-yesterday, I just thought. And I thought and I-and the day before, and I thought, "I really want to" this is so bizarre I thought, "I really want to have sex with my husband. I really miss this." He's not the only who wasn't-I wish we could have.

And it feels so unfair, because when you're put in that position, what kind of woman doesn't feel enough respect for herself when she says, "Okay, well (ph), you lied again. Let's get into bed" ? That's a crass way to put it, but yesterday I thought, "I really want those things." I do see my part of it.

I also have this thought, and I don't know if it's accurate and I'm looking for you to be a sounding board. But I definitely contributed to problems in the marriage. I definitely have my own personal-everybody has their own-

THERAPIST: Everyone contributes to problems in their marriage, (crosstalk at 00:37:02).

CLIENT: But I guess I also thought that what I was contributing was manageable. "My wife gets really stressed out and really anxious about things." That's not something you divorce over. Not that it's acceptable to have flaws that go up to the point where you would divorce over them, but I guess I thought that I wasn't bringing anything to the table that A, I wasn't working on in some capacity and B, that wasn't manageable.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think mostly that's been true. There have been times where you've said to me, "I just can't not criticize." So, "I'm not going to use 'I' statements," "I'm not going to speak to [my own] (ph) experience because I'm so mad." So I think there are times when that part has felt hard to manage.

It doesn't mean any of us-think about it, you're so right to bring up his sense of emasculation having nothing to do with you and the marriage, simply about fluking out of school and then working at Subway. [00:38:02] He's probably not feeling like much of a man right now.

CLIENT: He said the day before Valentine's Day, when he got on Match, he said, "I was working on creating profiles for jobs," because I told him about you're supposed to put a profile on your r�sum�, whatever.

And he's like, "I was looking at it and I had nothing to offer you. And I was so-with Valentine's Day, I was so depressed. And I felt so horrible about myself. And I wanted to create a version of myself that..."

THERAPIST: See, I believe that. That I think is more the overriding force in trying to-the desperate searching for something out there. This is often what it is for people. Even when they set up profiles and it feels betraying. [It's the part of it] (ph) they're trying to sort of-a lot of men, for example, if they're feeling inadequate for a wife, will go and find an online partner where they get to feel like they're a man. It's more about their own insecurity in the relationship that actually matters to them, it's not about wanting to have an affair with that person. [00:39:02] It's about wanting to find a sense of being seen as a man, for once and for all.

And it's a fantasy. It's not a real relationship at all. If that woman got to know him, she'd have the same criticisms you do.

CLIENT: But that's the thing. I felt like when he was making progress-I mean, going to the gym, eating a healthy meal, going to-I felt like I was always there, "I'm so proud of you," "That must feel so-" I felt like I was always there.

THERAPIST: You said those things.

CLIENT: Yes! Oh my gosh, all the time. I don't think he heard them.

THERAPIST: Well, he probably didn't feel it in himself.

CLIENT: [sighs] And the one time that I was with him and Dr. Bourd, I think it was about the weight thing or whatever. And I said I was really encouraging and I was going to the gym with him at 10:00 at night and I was telling him how proud I was and Dr. Bourd was like, "Maybe that feels infantilizing to you, Ivan." What do you want from me? [sighs]

THERAPIST: I'd (ph) pause there, because I don't think just because Dr. Bourd says to Ivan, "Maybe that feels infantilizing to you," doesn't that mean that you are doing something wrong. [00:40:05]

He's just trying to find maybe Ivan, what he does, is feel like, "Aw, that makes me feel even worse!" That's not your problem, though. There has to be a way that you can say something to him that-he may be so filled with his own self-hatred right now, Ramona, and self-disgust and, "I'm such a bad person," that there's nothing you could say that wouldn't confirm that. "That's right, I'm a horrible person. That's right."

Even if you were nice and supportive and warm? Even that, he may be twisting into, "Oh, she's condescending to me and treating me like I'm a child who doesn't know anything about the world." That doesn't mean that's what you're doing. Dr. Bourd may have been finding what Ivan's experience is. Do you see the difference?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I want to be sure. Because the other day when I met with Ivan and he was... I told him, I don't know how I brought it up, but I said something like, "We still need to have the conversation about what happened." [00:41:03] And he's like, "I wasn't the only one who was abusive." And he's like, "You were controlling." And I guess I want to know, was I abusing my husband?

THERAPIST: I think you may have been controlling. I don't know that I would call that "abusive." It's different than sexual assault, it's just different.

CLIENT: But there are types of abuse where people look for power and control over others. And all they do is ever put them down. And I didn't feel like that was my goal and I didn't... [sighs]

THERAPIST: I'm going to give you something that might be-this may be hard to hear, but I think it might be helpful to hear in the long run.

My sense of you-in this relationship, I have different feelings sitting with all different people, depending on who they are.

I often feel like the main thing that I feel from you is that I am disappointing you. Lately, less and less, because I think there's something that we've been working on that has to do with your vulnerability, trusting other persons. [00:42:06]

But I think, early on, for a long time, it felt like you were usually angry at me, disappointed, frustrated, felt I was inadequate and wasn't helping you at all.

So I use those feelings inside me as sort of-I wonder if that's what Ivan feels like most of the time. When I feel like part of why I'm here is trying to be helpful to you and I'm actually pretty good at what I do. Doesn't mean I'm perfect, I make a lot of mistakes. [laughs]

I think, Ramona, you are so, so hard on yourself, the bar is so high and you have been so betrayed by so many people. This is where I say this is not your fault. You've been betrayed. Ivan has actually betrayed you. Actually has. And yet, there may be something he's speaking to and trying to put words to where he feels like he's constantly a disappointment. [00:43:06] Does that make any sense?

CLIENT: It does. It feels complicated, because on the one hand, I know that I would be hard on anyone that I was with. And I know that I would be not quick to trust. And I know those things.

But at the same time, he set me up with all these expectations that sounded reasonable if what was supposed to be happening was happening.

THERAPIST: And Ramona, that's real and matters. (crosstalk at 00:43:38)

CLIENT: Anyone would be disappointed if you say, "I'm going to teach," and then you go for months without applying-

THERAPIST: Anyone, anyone. Even people who are trusting and don't lead (ph) with criticism would feel so betrayed. Because it's actually betrayal. A number of different things he's done have been immature, backdoor betrayals of you. And lying to you. [00:44:00] And that's not okay. No matter how critical you are, that is not okay.

This is what I guess I'm trying to say is these can be simultaneously true. That he did real things that are not okay. There are lines, the gray area. These things are not gray. They're not okay. They would disappoint any person, unless you were a doormat. And then we'd be working on, "Why is this not disappointing anymore?" because you should be disappointed and critical.

And the basic basis of the relationship is that this may also, then, happen, this dynamic (inaudible at 00:44:35). Now, that's the stuff, that had this big stuff not been happening, you'd be working on in couples' therapy. He'd eventually be finding words and saying, "I feel emasculated. No matter what I do, I can't get it right by you." And then you'd say, "Okay, well, I feel like you often don't do many (ph) things well, a lot of the time." Not the big things, but, like, the laundry. And you slowly work on developing more respect for each other in the relationship, if it was going well. [00:45:00]

These big things happened on top of all that and matter. That's what I guess I'm trying to say. And this is I think what you were trying to say. You know you have your contribution so does he! Besides the big things. It's not like he's perfect besides the big things. He has just constant avoidance even in things like the laundry, he leaves them to the last minute. So this is something you were going to work on anyway and then these loud, very big, glaring examples have happened that I think you're really justified in being very, very mad and disappointed at.

I do think they're more a kind of shame-based avoidance, though, instead of actually wanting to not be in the marriage anymore.

CLIENT: Then is it real... [sighs] So if I take him up on reading these books, and he wants to go to Dr. Farrow. If I give him this chance to-I don't want to be unrealistic and think that he could overcome that sounds critical but that if that is a real problem, that he could overcome that within... [00:46:07]

THERAPIST: Yeah. You know, we have to stop. Let's revisit that question, because I don't know that was can answer that question even in a session today. You know, I think you have to keep thinking about it and let time unfold and wait and see, a little bit.

Does he get more persistently in the direction of, "I really want to work on this again"? Do you start hearing? Does he start hearing things from you, where you say, "I know this is a piece of me. I'm working on that part, too. But there are some really big parts of you that are part of the equation, also, and I want to see if you can take ownership of that." Do you start to hear more and more signs and signals of that so you can trust it a little bit to try again? But I think time will tell that more than knowing for sure today. Okay?

CLIENT: Is it okay to meet with him?

THERAPIST: I think so. [00:47:00] I think it would be most productive for what you want if you lead with your vulnerability and say, "I feel hurt. And I'm confused. And if you want to talk, I would love to talk to you."

CLIENT: He's like, "Let's go to church and lunch on Sunday and talk."

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Is that appropriate or am I...?

THERAPIST: I don't think it's a judgment about it being inappropriate or appropriate. I don't think you're being a doormat if you go in other words, if that's what you're asking me.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I don't think so. You're married right now.

So you can have a conversation. Doesn't mean you're taking him back. You can go to church together. Doesn't mean you're going to take him back. You can figure that out over time.

I'll see you Monday. [00:48:00]

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