TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: This will be a one-hour session, instead of the usual forty-five minutes.

It's started.

CLIENT: I'm sorry?

THERAPIST: It started.

CLIENT: Oh, okay. [laughs] Thanks for having additional time.

THERAPIST: Sure, (crosstalk at 00:00:36) time.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:00:37)

THERAPIST: I will definitely let you know as soon as I know if anything else opens up (inaudible at 00:00:41).

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: What's your schedule for the rest of the week, just so (inaudible at 00:00:43)?

CLIENT: There's going to be something coming up, that I don't know when it's happening yet. It hasn't been scheduled yet. But Wednesday, I think, Wednesday afternoon I'm busy with volunteering. But other than that, I think I'm pretty flexible.

THERAPIST: Are you working (inaudible at 00:01:00)?

CLIENT: I told you about the temporary job at Amherst Group Hospitals. And training was supposed to start this week. It was a pretty slow process, kind of. I honestly got hired a couple weeks ago, but I actually just got a permanent (ph) job, so...

THERAPIST: You did?

CLIENT: Yeah, so, I think I'm going to-if they're able to find enough help, I'm going to try not to do weekends and [laughs] nights on top of that, because that's a lot, so...

THERAPIST: Where'd you get the permanent job?

CLIENT: Hoag.

THERAPIST: Congratulations!

CLIENT: Thanks.

THERAPIST: Which one is this?

CLIENT: I interviewed for a couple weeks. It happened very quickly. It was a coordinator position.

THERAPIST: In what?

CLIENT: In surgery, with the Chief of Surgery and his one associate, who's a hand surgeon, so...

THERAPIST: Do you know what your duties might be?

CLIENT: Yeah. [00:02:00] So I interviewed with six people for a coordinator position and the final title (ph)-

THERAPIST: For this one job?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Six people?

CLIENT: Right. [laughs] (inaudible at 00:02:11)

THERAPIST: What?!

CLIENT: I went in several times.

THERAPIST: That's crazy! [laughs]

CLIENT: So it's a (crosstalk at 00:02:19) Coordinator position, but they finally gave me the title. They were happy with that title, but compensation within HR said it needs to be "Research Assistant to," because I didn't have any work experience after undergrad, I went to grad school [laughs] instead.

So even though I worked some during some grad school, and certainly last summer at the law firm and such, it's not enough work experience to make me a coordinator but it's the same job. So I'm doing the same thing, and it's the coordinator job description.

THERAPIST: The same pay?

CLIENT: No. [laughs]

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: It's lower, I'm sure. But same job, so I think that's the most important thing. And it's just below a coordinator, so whenever I'm promoted, that's it. [00:03:00]

THERAPIST: So it's not just data entry!

CLIENT: No, there's no data entry, to my knowledge. They said...

THERAPIST: [gasps] Ramona! Sounds like a great job!

CLIENT: ...15% SAS (ph) [laughs] so that's what I'm counting on, and like 20% administrative. The Chief is kind of a big deal. He publishes regularly. He has an MBA. He's an orthodontist and an MD [and a surgeon] (ph). So he does a lot, but he also... Two years ago, he went to abroad to teach them how to do some of these surgeries with their resources. [00:04:01] He flown in people from... He does incredible things. He's really cool. [laughs]

And the hand surgeon that he works with is trying to get a hand transplant program off the ground, which is evidently a crazy deal for children evidently, that's unheard of for children. So they're really cool. [laughs]

THERAPIST: Really exciting, cutting-edge...

CLIENT: Yeah, so I'm excited.

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:04:35) [for his program] (ph).

CLIENT: And it's really good benefits. I negotiated salary; I got an extra $1,000. It's still not crazy pay [laughs], it's not crazy pay, but it's (inaudible at 00:04:49) good.

THERAPIST: Good for you! Do you mind my asking what?

CLIENT: It's $41,000.

THERAPIST: That's decent!

CLIENT: Yeah. The average for coming out of my degree is like $54,000, but I wonder if that includes [laughs]-there are people who are surgeons who come back and their degree, so I don't know... [00:05:05]

THERAPIST: Right, hard to tell.

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:05:07) Career Services, they said right now that's around what it is. Sometimes, it's slower. Sometimes, it's like $38,000 for every (crosstalk at 00:05:14).

THERAPIST: [That's what I've seen] (ph), I feel like we've heard a lot of people in $30,000s for that kind of job description.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You can live on that.

CLIENT: [laughs] Yeah. It's a ton of money for me. But evidently, I'll still be overseeing people as I would with a coordinator job, it's the same, overseeing some assistants, so we'll see.

THERAPIST: I know you're not (inaudible at 00:05:37) happy, I'm really happy for you that there's something there.

CLIENT: Yeah. [laughs]

THERAPIST: I don't want that to be invalidating. How are you feeling about it? [Is it good] (ph)? (inaudible at 00:05:48), in other words, is this...?

CLIENT: Oh, no. The position itself is maybe one of the best I've applied to. I didn't apply to this job, actually.

THERAPIST: Wow, wow really?

CLIENT: Really. I applied to a couple assistant jobs at Hoag, and the assistant Dean that I've worked with so much at school at Career Services, she had passed on my r�sum� to one of the recruiters. [00:06:10]

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: And so they sent it around, evidently, and they contacted me. So I never applied, because I didn't think I would be interested in plastic and oral surgery, but it's not what I thought it was.

As far as responsibilities and pay and benefits and title and every-yeah, it's not infectious disease, which is what I really wanted, but definitely a very solid skillset that will transfer to that, at some point.

THERAPIST: Absolutely, absolutely.

CLIENT: It's a really good job and I'm grateful.

THERAPIST: So when do you start?

CLIENT: The 7th. That's why I say there's some days that Occupational Health will have me come in at some point this week, so that hasn't been set up yet because I just accepted on Friday. [00:07:00]

THERAPIST: [You looked at] (ph) (inaudible at 00:07:05)?

CLIENT: I guess it's a good thing, and it's a relief in some ways, but I haven't been happy. Not because I'm ungrateful, I just haven't been happy. I haven't told my parents.

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: They haven't [laughs]... They didn't...

THERAPIST: It's hard to be celebratory (inaudible at 00:07:31).

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:07:36)

CLIENT: Yeah. It feels cruel, kind of, because I worked so hard all summer. I've been working so, so, so hard, and volunteering, and I've been doing (inaudible at 00:07:49) interviews and I've been doing all these things.

When I thought things were getting better with Ivan and I, around June and July-and even before then, I thought when I finally got a job and he has a job and we both had money, I pictured no more struggling at the grocery store, "What do we need to put back?" [00:08:11] No more I can never go out with my friends and I have to make up a reason why I can't go out. No more-we never went out. I thought we could finally do some things, go to dinner just because.

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:08:28), have a life.

CLIENT: And have evenings and weekends free to do whatever I wanted. Because in grad school, every day whether it was the weekend or the weekday it was the same schedule. Ongoing, and there was never a set-it was never done. But with a workday, you're done, and you get to go home. I thought that would be so wonderful for us.

My advisor at one point, she-I told her I was thinking about doing another program at some point, but I wasn't sure and I didn't quite feel ready yet. [00:09:03] And she said, "Well, you're really young. You haven't had a break from school yet. Either way, you need to get in some research if you want to another program of any kind. I'm sure you and your husband would like to have a life, just enjoy being married."

I felt like crap, because the Dean in Career Services who's been helping me so, so much. I've been at her workshop every week. She's been helping me with everything. She helped me with negotiation on Friday, actually she prepared me for that. [laughs] So clearly, I haven't negotiated salary before.

Anyway, when I got off the phone, I told her, "It's done, I accepted," she's like, "Your husband must be so excited for you." And I thought... She's like, "Go tell your advisor. Go up to her office right now and tell her you finally..." So I did, and she's like, "Bet your husband's really excited!" She's been-I don't know. [00:10:01] She is exceptional. She remembers where I live, she remembers that I'm married; she remembers my career path, how old I am. "Well," she's like, "I guess that's a little bit of a commute, but you could move. I know Waltham's less expensive, but ..."

She's talking about that. She's like, "Where does your husband work?" And I'm like, "He works at Subway." And she's like, "Oh, where?" "(inaudible at 00:10:20)" She's like, "Well, maybe he could transfer to another Subway. I mean, you never know, maybe you could move closer." It's so...

Part of me wanted to tell her even that probably would not have been appropriate to say, "Actually, no. He's not excited for me." It felt horrible.

Again, I'm not trying to diminish something positive finally happening. It is... I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean, I think that's what I'm wanting to sort of hold in my dialect of (inaudible at 00:11:00) is that on the one hand, of course you cannot feel as overjoyed right now as you would have otherwise. It's such a different set of circumstances. In fact, your marriage, in some ways, would (inaudible at 00:11:13) the most important thing of all. To be on your mind about doing something, that's it.

At the same time, Ramona, I really hope for you that what's happening with Ivan doesn't have to take away from every single part of your life all day long, all the time. Meaning I really hope there's a way, when you find it inside yourself, that you can celebrate this, too. Regardless of whether Ivan's happy, not happy, knows, not knows this is a huge step for you. I'm really, really happy for you.

I also know there's so much else going on that trumps this, in a way. But you really need to (inaudible at 00:11:58) to celebrate and give yourself a pat on the back for this part. The fact that you've done this amidst everything that's going on also is so impressive, continuing to push on and apply for jobs.

I hope you can celebrate with your sister, or call up and tell your parents. (inaudible at 00:12:13) a little conversation, (inaudible at 00:12:16) where people get to be proud of you and happy for you is actually happening, alongside all the other stuff that you're (inaudible at 00:12:23) right now.

(pause)

CLIENT: My sister knows, only because she's been so-she's been incredibly supportive through all this. After my interview, after every step of the way, she's always, at the end of the day calling and asking.

So she knows, and she's like, "I want to go out to dinner this weekend and celebrate," and we did, because I just-

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:12:50)

CLIENT: So Saturday, I didn't eat anything, I didn't drink anything, I didn't move, barely. I was so depressed, so upset, so... [00:13:02]

But Friday night, I saw my friends briefly.

THERAPIST: That's (inaudible at 00:13:11).

CLIENT: I haven't seen them in a while, and they've been after trying to get together. So I did, and I told my friend Helen that I got something but I said, "I don't want to talk about it tonight," because one of my other friends from school, he hasn't gotten anything yet. I said, "I don't want him to know." That would feel bad. We only talked about it for five minutes. That felt better, because I didn't want anyone to make a fuss or to say, "Ivan must be so happy."

As it is, they're-a bunch of them, they're like, "Where's Ivan?" "Oh, he's working, he can't make it, and..." (crosstalk at 00:13:47).

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:13:48) say anything?

CLIENT: How do I...? I cut myself off, I haven't been talking to them, I haven't been hanging out with them, I haven't-how do I, all of the sudden, say, "Actually, he moved out and he assaulted me and he is on all these websites"? [00:14:04] [laughs] How do you drop that into conversation [laughs] without making them feel incredibly uncomfortable and...

THERAPIST: Would you feel that way if one of your friends told you? Said, "I've been going through a hard time, this is (inaudible at 00:14:22) going through with my husband"?

CLIENT: I would obviously feel concerned. I'd obviously be worried about them. I wouldn't blame them, but I would also feel blindsided if, for months, it was, "Ah, he's working at Subway." And that's not so great.

I had told Helen at one point about the grad school thing, but I really downplayed it and said, "He's been struggling with depression, I'm trying to get him help for that."

THERAPIST: You'd feel blindsided, as though someone is hurting you? (crosstalk at 00:14:54)

CLIENT: No, it's not as (inaudible at 00:14:55) being hurt, it was out of the blue. If you didn't say that there are any problems for months and months and months and months, and it was, "He's not here because he's at work"? [00:15:04] Then instead, it was, "Just kidding. He's not here because of all of these huge, huge, huge things." Where did that come from?

THERAPIST: But wouldn't you also understand-I would understand if someone I knew kept that from me and all of the sudden you find out, actually, he's (ph) been doing horrible for a year. Sometimes people have a hard time talking about it, and sometimes it takes reaching that point for that them to start admitting (ph) and saying, you know?

CLIENT: Yeah, no-

THERAPIST: I think your fears about how they would react are probably a lot worse than how they would react. My guess is they'd be empathetic and feel for you.

CLIENT: I told one friend. I told my closest girlfriend from college, I told her. Not all the gory details, but what was happening.

THERAPIST: How'd that go? [00:16:00]

CLIENT: She was incredible. I was very surprised. This is a girlfriend who-she's been looking for something-she's not dating anyone, she lives at home right now, she's just in very different situation-

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:16:12)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: She's in a very different situation. She was one of my bridesmaids. She's a very close friend. I think I started off by telling her we're taking a break. She's like, "There's nothing wrong with taking a break, Ramona." I was so surprised that she could handle that.

THERAPIST: Good!

CLIENT: And then, at one point, I told her as much as Ivan's been on some websites that aren't for married people, [laughs] that's how I put it. And I said Match.com was one of them, because I couldn't-there's no way I could talk about the other ones, I felt, in a-she could get the gist of it. But eventually, she said, "Well, I don't know what's best for you, if you should stay or you should go, but make sure it's your decision." I was very, very surprised that she had that-not that she's immature, but that she had that insight, without having gone through anything... Like a long-term relationship, let alone one with problems. [00:17:09] I was very surprised.

THERAPIST: An openness, non-judgmental, really hearing you and thinking about what's in your best interests instead of making some snap judgment.

This is what I think you will find, Ramona. I think the person who's the most judgmental of all, in all of this, is you, your own self. I'm quite sure if you told people who care about you, this is what's happening, that they would get it. I don't think they'll have an answer just as I don't about what you should do, because that's ultimately your decision. But that you could feel her being supportive of what is going on for you. It's so important. [00:18:00]

You said in your e-mail that there were some things from our last conversation that were staying with you (inaudible at 00:18:07). I don't know if it was bothering you, or... Yeah. Tell me.

CLIENT: I'm taking accountability and this is my perception. I felt horrible [laughs] about myself, which is not something that I didn't feel, ever before I ever even saw you. I felt really, really horrible about myself, because I kept thinking over and over about what you said.

That I have this tendency to treat people as though they are disappointing to me or that they will disappoint me or that they will inevitably let me down. That I am controlling, in some ways. That there was a portion of time with Ivan that I couldn't stop criticizing, remember that phrase you used? [00:19:02] I felt horrible about that, of course.

And I remembered what you said about a marriage without sex isn't a marriage. And so I felt like crap. I felt absolutely horrible about myself, because I stopped thinking about all the things that he's done that I think I are horrible. And I started thinking about those things about me.

I felt maybe I'm not in a place to even be in a relationship, if all that's true about me. And maybe that dinner didn't bring us to where we are. But I went back from that-I feel like in a portion of our time, we've talked about making the transition from other people's things, making them my responsibility.

I felt I completely went back. I felt I went-and all the work on not hating myself when someone else does something horrible, I felt I went back after that session. [00:20:06] I went back to putting it on myself and hating myself for what was happening and blaming myself, and even thinking, "If I had been having sex with my husband, maybe he wouldn't have assaulted me twice in my sleep. Maybe he wouldn't have been looking at all this stuff and making these profiles." Maybe there's a tiny part of that that's true. Not that that makes it okay or excusable or every man whose wife isn't having sex with him can do these things without judgment.

But that's how it felt. And I guess regardless of the problems, whose fault they are or who's supposed to be accountable... I felt really bad about myself. And I also felt like I wasn't [hearing right] (ph), still haven't heard from anyone. This is any form of-I'm sure it's critical for me, but any form of, "It's not okay under any circumstances to do what he did." [00:21:06]

THERAPIST: Ramona, I've said those exact words to you multiple times. Do you not remember that?

CLIENT: I remember you saying that about the assault. You said some things are gray and this is very black and white, and this is very wrong. And you said it was abusive and aggressive.

But with regards to the profiles I know this is my perception and I'm not blaming anyone I'm saying I remember you saying that [sighs] you've counseled a lot of couples who one of them is looking at porn. And that it's not uncommon. And that that happens. And I don't know if that was meant to-

THERAPIST: That doesn't mean that's okay, though. Do you hear the difference? Do you know what I mean? Just because it happens-a lot of people have affairs. It doesn't mean it's an okay thing that happens, right?

I would never condone that as the way people should work things out, is to go find [some kind of secret] (ph). [00:22:01] It's not okay that that happens. I think I'm only getting the context that it does happen a lot, because people have a hard time addressing things front-and-center. Or it's a symbol that there's something that's not going well in the relationship. It is always a two-way street.

So backing up for a second, I just want to say, first of all, that I'm so glad you are telling that this is your reaction and that these are your feelings and being honest with me about all this is really, really important. And I'm so glad you can tell me.

I think there are things you're hearing that I'm saying that I am saying. I think there are things you might do with what I'm saying that twists it a little bit to become something that's not actually is in my head, to be what my intention was. That might be a place to start just trying to help clarify a little bit about sort of what I was thinking or what I was not thinking. [00:23:03]

If the only story you get out of this is it's all Ivan's fault, I think whether you stay with him or leave him you will regret something about that, because that is not a reality. In any single couple, there's never a situation where it's only 100%, all the time, someone's responsibility, not the other person's.

CLIENT: I know that.

THERAPIST: You know that. That's all I was trying to share, that I think the more you know and understand the relational conflicts you got into, what's yours, what's his. It will allow you to make more and more and more of an informed decision about what you want to do for yourself.

If we make the decision only from my kind of saying, "It's all, all, all, all, all, all his fault," you'll know, one day even if it's three years from now that that wasn't entirely true. [00:24:06] And you'll regret not (inaudible at 00:24:08) or something like that. Do you see what I'm saying?

We're trying to keep the whole picture in mind. You are absolutely, Ramona, working on blaming yourself less and less and less. You are so self-critical. One of the things I get the sense of, though, is here's what happens, this is what feels like the two options: either it's 100% your fault; or if you start to let yourself not feel that which is, I think, what we've been working on it sort of feels like it's hard for any piece of it to be your responsibility, without the whole thing [ending up] (ph) being your responsibility again. Do you see what I'm saying?

CLIENT: I don't feel that way. I feel that way with him making profiles and with him assaulting, I feel like those instances, I'm[00:25:04]

THERAPIST: You're not responsible for those.

CLIENT: And I feel angry, because I feel in couples' and I feel even in here, it's my perception and I take responsibility for that. I feel those are completely his fault and I am beyond furious when anyone suggests, "If you had just been having sex with him, he wouldn't be on Match.com."

THERAPIST: Ramona. Okay. I want to be very, very clear with you right now. Can you hear me? I do not think the answer is that you should be having sex with him so that he won't do that. It is not, at all, not even 1% your responsibility that he was on Match.com, none.

CLIENT: That's the problem. I feel there are instances where I feel it's not at all my fault. But I feel I actually do a pretty good job of saying that I know that-even aside from what you said last session; I know that I was critical at times. I know that I was hard on him. [00:26:00]

I'm not defending it, but I do think there is a part of what I was saying and what I was voicing that anyone who had certain expectations and then found out that the reality was down here is going to say something, in some tone, and it's not going to be praise. It's going to be, "What happened?"

THERAPIST: You should be critical. If you aren't critical, you would be being unhealthy.

CLIENT: I know that I am a hard judge, in general. So I'm sure that aside from the normal amount of criticism, or the amount of criticism that almost anyone would have had in that situation, I criticize too much.

THERAPIST: That's what I think happens. You are so unbelievably critical of yourself, first and foremost, that then the bar gets held that high for everyone else. In a way that there's constantly someone who's not going to be perfect.

I also think when you get anxious, you're comfortable getting more critical. Whereas someone else might get anxious and withdraw, right? [00:27:02] You get more activated.

That does not make you responsible for what Ivan did. That is Ivan's responsibility, 100%. I want you hear me saying this. Never, ever, ever would I say to you or to a couple, "If you were only having sex, he wouldn't do this." I might be interested that you're not having sex; we need to understand what that's about, because I think that's important in a marriage. It's a basis of what makes a couple a married couple instead of just friends. What's happened that there isn't that kind of physical intimacy is important. That's really important. But it doesn't mean if it's not happening it gives any one of the people a right to go do something else in secret, at all.

I think we're on the same page, but you're clarifying for me that maybe there's a way I was saying something around my (inaudible at 00:27:58) of your part that you just don't need to hear right now because you know it already, and you're an expert at taking on your part. Maybe it was too harsh, the way I said it. And I'm sorry.

CLIENT: No, I'm not upset with you. I felt like crap. And I already felt like crap because, quite frankly, my husband is on these websites. I feel inadequate. I feel less-than. I feel, "What's wrong with me? Why am I not enough?"

I feel like crap, because I feel for two years, I did exactly what I said I was going to do in those two years. I worked my butt off. I've been honest. I've been faithful. I've been trying. I'm the one who says, "Let's go to couples' counseling," who gets us two couples' counselors! I'm the one who says, "I'm concerned about you, that you are so depressed. The stove is on for hours. Maybe it's time to talk to somebody about this. You don't need to feel ashamed." I feel-

THERAPIST: And I've said that always (ph) to you, Ramona. You've been the one who's done this. [00:29:00] I agree with you.

CLIENT: But after all that hard work, this is the other end. I feel I've never been the perfect friend to him or the perfect wife or the perfect girlfriend or fianc�e. I've never been perfect in any way, shape, or form. I'm the best person at saying that.

But I do think that even my problems while part of them, I think, were understandable: trying to control somebody who's sitting on the couch all day. A part of it's understandable, but part of it was too much, or anyone would have trouble listening to that. Even if there really was a factual basis for it, it would be hard to hear.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yes. So that's this, right? Then he went and did this.

CLIENT: I guess what I'm trying to say is I think I recognize, pretty well, my parts. But at the same time, I don't think and this is where I'm worried that I'm letting myself off too easily I don't think that that brought us to this. [00:30:00] I don't think that we're separated and I don't think that all the stuff that he's doing and the way we feel, I don't think that that even brought us necessarily-couples' counseling, I don't think I contributed elephants in the room.

THERAPIST: [You didn't] (ph). You didn't.

CLIENT: That's the part of me that feels, actually, like there are parts of this that are his fault and those parts are maybe bigger or very different from the parts that are mine.

THERAPIST: How about there are these parts that are in you and parts that are in him that are both this stuff? There are parts in me, right? Parts in every person that would make-we all have strength and weaknesses in a relationship, right? You could have worked on those parts. But he (inaudible at 00:30:46) and with his things that he struggles with, suddenly he went into these very, very loud, damaging things, right?

The equivalent would have been you saying, "I'm so unhappy with Ivan that I'm going to have an affair with someone who is successful and has a good job and is more what I'm looking for in a man," or, "I'm going to start setting up websites," right? [00:31:12] That's the equivalent of what he did.

CLIENT: I told him that. Clearly, I wasn't doing that, but I told him-he's pointing out that we weren't really having sex very often, that it was very infrequent. And I said, "Ivan, you know, I could have been going on Match.com."

I told you about the time I thought about my friend Gary and how he's starting his Ph. D. program, he works full-time, he has own apartment, he takes care of all his own bills, he's all put-together. He manages to shave every day. He has it together, and how much I liked that about my friend. We're clearly only ever just friends. He's such a good friend. I thought about that one day, and I thought, "Wouldn't that be nice to have in my husband?" [00:32:03]

I thought that was a betrayal, because that's how it's felt for me before, when I look at other people. But I didn't do that!

THERAPIST: I said that it wasn't.

CLIENT: Right! You said it wasn't, but that's why it would feel like it, to me.

THERAPIST: But there's a big difference between-see, this is what you did. You had a fantasy for a second. You had a thought. You had feeling.

CLIENT: But it was about Ivan! It was about I want him to be that! It wasn't, "I wish I could be with him."

THERAPIST: It was about Ivan, yes. Even if you had, "I wish I could be," if it's an internal thought for a second, everybody-we can't control what we think and feel, right? We can control what we do.

You had that thought, and it didn't then make you go, "Okay, I'm going to go set up a profile." Do you see that there's a big difference? That's where I draw the line about thinking, feeling, and actually taking an action (inaudible at 00:32:50) overt betrayal.

If you find yourself fantasizing about him all the time, right, and had nothing to do with Ivan? Then that might be something we'd talk about, "Okay, what does that mean? How is your heart getting pulled in that direction?" [00:33:02] That's not what was happening, either! It was a moment, or moments from time to time, where you look at this person and wish your husband were more like that, and to want to work on these parts in him.

It's a big difference between that and lying.

CLIENT: It feels horrible, because Ivan then says things like, "I want someone to love me for who I am, not who they want me to be." Part of me feels horrible, because there are huge things that I thought Ivan was that he's not. It's not fair to say you fell in love with this, now be as in-love with this. That's not fair.

I also feel it's this huge-this is critical of me, but I feel it's this huge, cowardly cop-out. "No matter what I do, it's never enough," and, "I just want you to love me for who I am"? No! You don't get to lie. You don't get to assault me. You don't get to set up these profiles, and then say, "I just want to be loved for who I am." [00:34:02] "Nothing I ever do is good enough," "I can never..."

THERAPIST: It's a total cop-out, Ramona. It's a total cop-out. Listen, if he wanted to be loved for who he was, he would have told at the very beginning, "By the way, I'm dropping out of grad school." He lied to you, instead. He told you he was something else! So you fell in love with that! He lied to you, for a long time!

And furthermore, "I want to be loved for who I am," is sort of like you could go murder someone and say, "But you need to love me for who I am." Where do you draw the line about actually someone's allowed to have a reaction to some things you're doing that they don't like?

I can't imagine another person he's dating who gets sexually assaulted and then he sets up these kinds of websites who is not going to have feelings about that, right?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You're not an anomaly in having a reaction to that. You're actually a healthy person having a reaction. If he finds someone who doesn't have a reaction, she has problems. [00:35:00]

CLIENT: I think he doesn't realize, though-I've told him how hurt I am and how devastating it is to find out about all this stuff? Especially, it's always so far after the fact, with him. And I don't think he realizes that if I had no feelings for him and if I really thought that he was this slacker who had no potential and I didn't love him after I found out that he lied about so much, I wouldn't be upset.

THERAPIST: You wouldn't be here!

CLIENT: I would just be done. I don't think he grasps that.

THERAPIST: That's the other side of things. You're seeking the same thing.

When he says, "I love you. I want you to love me for who I am," you love a lot of him for who he is, or else he would have been gone already, Ramona. He would have been gone when you found out about school, if there were no loving feelings. You do love a lot of who he is. You very much don't like some things that he's done to you that were really hurtful that he did in secret, that he lied about, that were betrayals of you, and that you find out about a long time later. [00:36:00]

It's an odd thing to ask you not to have feelings about that, if that's what he's saying. That's very strange. You can have strong feelings and be furious at him and feel betrayed. And still love him, too.

Actually, I think that is what you feel. Wouldn't hurt this much if you didn't love him.

CLIENT: It's very, very, very bizarre, and I think I need help-I don't know how to articulate what I need help with, but when I got the job and my advisor's like, "Well, maybe you could move," because it's a little over an hour to get there one way [laughs] so that's a long time to do for at least a year, probably a couple years.

I thought, "I could move. There's no reason why I couldn't move. That would be nice, to not have a crazy commute. Maybe there are places relatively comparable in price and quality." [00:37:00]

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And then I started thinking. So the lease is up October 26th. I haven't given them any notice, but I also haven't signed a renewal. And I started thinking maybe I really need to find a place with him. Then I started thinking-I looked at a couple studios, just to see what they even cost, and I thought I could get a little single bed...

I had these weird, parallel visions of what I'm going to do. Part of me feels like it's the end of the world if, at the end of October, I'm moving into a studio or a place with roommates. And then part of me feels like how could I possibly be looking for an apartment with him when he's telling me-he internalizes everything, so he can't have that conversation about accountability. And he can't break down and cry about what he did. And he can't... [00:38:00]

It's these parallel-

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:38:04) to work with.

CLIENT: One minute, I'm holding on to, "This is going to work. It has to work. Even though I feel all these things right now, I'm not going to feel it forever."

On the other hand, I'm, "Maybe I'm just so upset because I'm mourning what I've lost and I'm mourning what I thought I had versus-it was a deception." Anyone, when they leave a marriage and they didn't have a say in those things would feel those things. And maybe that's the process.

I can't figure out which it is. I feel like I'm going crazy.

And then I talked to him Saturday night. I insisted that I talk to him, so he came over. And he was concerned about me. He put in a load of laundry. He took care of Eloise. He's like, "Here, you need to eat something." What is that, exactly? [00:39:00]

And so we're talking, and I'm asking more questions, and I'm asking, "Why?" Within (ph) every question, it's a variation of, "Why?"

THERAPIST: Which he doesn't know the answer to yet, I don't think, (inaudible at 00:39:11).

CLIENT: He's like, "I wanted more. I wanted to have more sex with you. I wanted that to be a part of the relationship." And I said, "Then..." And he...

THERAPIST: See, I don't think that's an answer, do you know what I mean? If that's all he can come up with right now, but if you want more if you actually want more you go about it in a different way.

CLIENT: And I said that you didn't say that. He's like, "Well, don't you remember?" He's very angry that I was angry about that time we had a whole couples' session about physical intimacy.

I told him this so many times, "I wasn't angry that we had the discussion. I was angry that [I didn't know context] (ph) of the discussion." Did he or Dr. Farrow (sp), I feel, say, "With everything going on, this isn't the absolute most important thing on the table and we're not going to sweep the other things under the rug and we're going to keep talking about them. [00:40:05] But if you want to work on other parts of it alongside, we can have this discussion."

After that, when she made it clear that there needs to be conversation, for him to have said to me, "Honey, I know that we're working on these big things. I know I messed up," the grad school or in any way to acknowledge that and honor that and say, "We're not sweeping it under the rug. I want to keep talking about it. I want to keep working on it. I miss having physical intimacy with you and I wonder if we can work on that slowly, in a way that's comfortable for both of us."

I told him, "Why didn't you ever say that to me?" Because that might have been difficult, and I might have needed to go much more slowly than he did, and it might have been really scary for me I know it would have been very scary for me.

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:40:53) a sense that he was trying to make (ph) emotional contact, to set some stage for being physical. [00:41:00] That's emotional contact: you were asking for him to reach out, understand what you were feeling and going through.

So you asked him, "Why did you never say something like this?"

CLIENT: Yeah!

THERAPIST: And what did he say?

CLIENT: "I really wish I would have. I wish I could go back and do that. I wish I would have said that." But he's like, "I felt like I couldn't say that because I knew I messed up so much and I knew that I had to find a way to deal with it before I could..."

THERAPIST: That's his problem, is he's using, the shame is so great that he can't even acknowledge something like that, which is a minor thing, to say, "I know I messed up, but can we work on all these things all at the same time? How would you feel about this? How would you feel if I sat on the couch (inaudible at 00:41:40) a conversation?"

He has so much shame; he continues not to give you the little things, even just baby steps towards what you're looking for.

CLIENT: I told him I wish he would have said that. Actually, when she had that conversation with us, I thought about having a conversation with him or initiating something. But there was no way I was ever going to do that, because, first of all, it's really hard when the other person-when you feel like they're not talking about things, to-I felt like it was reinforcement. [00:42:11]

I felt like you can do whatever, and I will still be honest to you. I will still work hard. I will still have sex with you. I will still fulfill all of my roles, and there's no-I feel like there is an implied agreement. There is an implied, "You contribute this, and I will contribute this."

THERAPIST: Yeah. You know, you weren't feeling like he was your partner. (crosstalk at 00:42:35)

CLIENT: He wasn't, no.

THERAPIST: Yeah, he's not meeting you halfway in the obligations in a relationship, including taking ownership for things, inquiring about your experience, trying to talk about things rather than shutting them down.

You were tired of being the one constantly-you still are the one trying to get him to talk. This is the part of you that's concerned about the (inaudible at 00:42:58) back together right now, because the same thing's happening. He's not coming over to you and saying, "Ramona, I'm so ready. I have an apology prepared. I want you to hear me out."

CLIENT: But that's the weird thing. Saturday night, he didn't do the-he's like, "I'm clamming up. I'm withdrawing because I internalize all of it. I'm not showing it to you, but I'm internalizing all of that breaking down and, 'Oh my God, what have I done?'"

Earlier in the week, he left a voice-mail for Dr. Farrow. He has set up an appointment. He left me a voice-mail yesterday and said, "Hi, honey. I want to let you know I'm so proud of you for getting this job, and I'm so excited for you. Would it be okay if we met Tuesday at 4:00 at the cafe?"

"I've been reading all these books: "His Needs, Her Needs," and, "Touch Me," these books that Dr. Farrow recommended, Dr. Bourd (sp). I've been reading these and I wondered if we could exchange them and I wanted to see what you think about them." [00:44:02]

"The five love languages, what your needs are, what your language of love is versus your partner's. I wonder if we can talk about those and the activities they recommend and how we could do some of those." He's like, "I know this is a complete 180, but I'm wondering if we can do any of this."

And part of me feels like-I told him at this point, I feel... It's hypocritical, because it's exactly what is not okay but I'm telling him I don't feel I like I can initiate effort right now. I feel I've been doing that for so long, and this is how he responds?

THERAPIST: Yes!

CLIENT: I'm not a total fool.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And he's like, "That's okay if you feel like you can't put any more effort right now, if you feel like you can't initiate anything." He's like, "I will do that."

THERAPIST: It's his turn to prove it to you.

CLIENT: And so I don't know how to respond, because this could be, "I'm scared I'm losing my wife. [00:45:00] I've been so dependent and reliant on her. Oh my gosh. I'll go to couples' therapy, I will read a book."

Or it could be... What if it's genuine? What if these tiny, little baby steps, what if they are [sighs] genuine?

But I feel disturbed, because when I looked at him on Saturday, I didn't feel the same way when I look at him. I felt it's so distant. It's so dispassionate. It's so... I mean, who wouldn't feel like they didn't know the other person when you find out all these crazy things?

THERAPIST: He's very, very cautious right now. Understand that.

CLIENT: And I'm starting to get comfortable with sleeping in my bed alone and having the apartment to myself. I'm no longer waking up scared in the morning because no one's there and I'm no longer... [00:46:00]

THERAPIST: Has he apologized yet?

CLIENT: [sighs] He says things like, "I am so sorry you are in so much pain. I know that it's my doing. I am so sorry for what I've done. I am so sorry for what has happened." But he can't-maybe this is the critical part of me, but I feel like after the assault before even all this other crap after the assault, I was very, very crystal-clear that not only did he need to apologize specifically for what he did not just, "I'm sorry for what happened," because that's not appropriate as context, I feel. I feel it's more than fair to expect more than, "I'm sorry for what happened."

THERAPIST: "For what happened."

CLIENT: Yeah, right. That's not ownership. He needs to actually get some courage and actually talk about what he did and offer some kind of explanation, even if it's, "This is what's was happening. I'm working to figure out what was really going through my head." So offer some kind of, "This will never happen again, because this is my plan to work on it." [00:47:04]

Or even honoring, "I know you feel this way, so understandable." That conversation never happened. So he's still doing, "I'm sorry you're hurt. I'm sorry..." I think he's hiding.

THERAPIST: It's something, right? What he's doing is something different (inaudible at 00:47:28). What you're trying to sort through is (inaudible at 00:47:31) meeting the needs you have, so that you could [trust getting] (ph) a step closer (inaudible at 00:47:37). And what would you need to hear (inaudible at 00:47:39), what do you need to hear (inaudible at 00:47:41), what do you need to hear in order to have a conversation about-even just the five ways of loving, whatever you're describing.

It feels a little premature to have that conversation right now, that's (inaudible at 00:47:55) the table for a little while, the conversation, until you're back connected again, if that's what you guys wanted to do. It's a little bit sort of jumping around (inaudible at 00:48:06) stuff, on his part.

CLIENT: It feels like reading the books and talking about ways to love each other best, it feels like that would have been appropriate a couple months ago.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I just think, Ramona, you're very ahead of him right now, in development. That's my sense of things. He's moving, but so are you that's the hard part, too. It's like you're in this work, also. But to me, you sound today the healthiest I've ever heard you. In your sense of self-esteem and your capacity to own your part, but also understand the reality of the things he's done as being his responsibility.

I also don't feel-the things I was saying last week, there's something that feels more settled about you today, as you're thinking through what you need, the kind of help you want. [00:49:01]

I guess I'm just describing that you keep growing. He's growing. I think he is growing, with Dr. Bourd. There are some things he's done now that he never did the beginning, when I first met you. He would never be doing them.

But there's a big gap, I think. So the things you're wanting him to do, right now, I don't know if he's capable of doing them yet. He might be -a year or two from now with some more work. That's more, to me, what would be-if I were having realistic expectations, I think the things that you're actually wanting to hear to make the relationship feel like something that you really are wanting to be interested and engaged in again, and that's worth growing? I think you might not be able to hear them for a little while.

So that may be, then, the question: "Okay, so if I'm hearing these things that are a little bit of what I want to hear, but they're still off the mark," they're getting there. They're at least that direction instead of the opposite direction, but they're not quite getting it yet, at all. What do you do with that? [00:50:01] Where do you, then, put him in your life for right now for these few months, even, as you're trying to make your decision about where to live?

The biggest thing, I think, to keep in mind about that is there's nothing that's permanent. There's nothing you have to feel pressure to do. You guys could be apart for a year, living in different circumstances, and then get back together.

CLIENT: I don't think I could do that.

THERAPIST: No? Say why.

CLIENT: Well, we've been married for just over two years. We've been in couples' for half of that. Some of the stuff is pretty recent. And I don't think, after the first year, after the lies, after the year of couples' counseling that I feel this recent stuff kind of says, "I'm not putting any effort," then to go and separate for a year. [00:51:02] I have to keep trying to go to counseling. Then to get back together? It sounds crazy. Even thinking about the long list of the lies, it's crazy to think, "I want to be with this person."

But I also want to feel out, with you, that... I guess I'm thinking the feelings I'm having are totally natural, and no matter what, no one would say, "I'm so in love with my husband right now." But what if that won't always be the case? What if things changed? And what if, in a few months, things felt very different?

THERAPIST: Meaning what if it got better? (crosstalk at 00:51:50)

CLIENT: What if got better? What if things changed with him, and more than the just the absence of assaulting or making profiles? Positive change. [00:52:01]

THERAPIST: You mean what if it got so much better in a few months that he actually was someone you could love again?

CLIENT: It's not that I don't love him.

THERAPIST: So someone you could see yourself having a life with? I mean that.

CLIENT: Yeah. Which is maybe unrealistic.

THERAPIST: But if it happened, then you would do it, right?

CLIENT: Maybe. Right now, the way I feel right now, and with what's been going on so recently, there is no way in hell [laughs] that I want a future with him. And it's not in thinking, "Do I want to get divorced? Do I want to stay married?" I'm young, do I want to spend...

THERAPIST: The rest of your life with him.

CLIENT: Right. I could never have children with him, the way he is-oh my gosh, no! [laughs] I would never go buy a house with him right now. I would never buy anything with him [laughs] right now. I would never take another step forward with him. Why would you? [00:53:00]

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:52:59)

CLIENT: But anyone, right after a huge betrayal of trust like that, isn't going to say, "Yeah, in a few years when I'm over this, sure, we'll have children. We'll start a family." I don't think anyone would be in that mindset. So I guess I'm trying to honor the fact that of course I'm not in that. But what if that changed?

THERAPIST: And you mean what if, in other words, if you stayed with him and kept him in your life right now, that eventually it got better?

CLIENT: Yeah. But is that realistic? And if we did get back together because he kept making these tiny steps that he's started to make recently [sighs] would it be realistic to think that we wouldn't go back to the daily types of avoidances? The less-extreme, less-harmful types of avoidance. Would we still be having conversations like, "Ivan, please talk to me. Ivan, please look at me." Could I bear that, after all of this? Is he going to work at Subway for another couple years? [00:54:01] Is that the dream right now?

THERAPIST: See, I guess one of the things I'm saying is that I don't think he's going to be miraculously a different person in the next two to three months. In other words, if that's what you're picturing, "What if we stay together and I just kind of hung in there right now and in a few months felt differently?" I don't think that's going to happen.

I do think it's possible that he could do work over the next year or two, and you start to feel like this is a different person. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: I do. This might be unrealistic and this might be weird, but I think back to June. And clearly, at the very beginning of June, he was on a porn site. But in the middle of June, he did something that he never does! And he took me out to dinner for my birthday. And he got these concert tickets back a month or so in advance for my sister and me to go. [00:55:06] And a week after that, we had friends over for it.

And then, at our anniversary, he went and plans this dinner at this really nice Italian place and-

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:55:19) some of the things he's done that he's never done before, they really were improvements.

CLIENT: They were! I thought that we were in a good place. It wasn't all resolved. And we were finally starting to talk about grad school again. It wasn't where we needed to be, but it was good.

THERAPIST: It was moving.

CLIENT: It was moving, and it was moving in the right direction. And there were some things that hadn't been happening in a very long time that were. So I guess part of me thinks if less than three months later... Is it crazy to think that we're that far from that? Or were we only there in my thinking, because all this other stuff was going with him? [00:56:01]

THERAPIST: See, I actually don't think it's either/or. I don't think it's that you're that far from that. I think those changes are still in Ivan, because of the work he's been doing. That's just more him, right? He's working things with Dr. Bourd so that's he's approaching more and avoiding some things.

I think, [simultaneously, there have been] (ph) darker secrets that have been-the things that are hardest of all to approach that have not been approached, right?

So I think they're both true. Maybe one of the questions, then, Ramona, is how would you feel if you imagined, right now, saying, "Okay, we'll work on it again"? Taking him back?

CLIENT: Obviously terrifying. The thing is, in the beginning, even after the assault? The thought of divorcing him felt like the end of the world. [00:57:02] It felt like a religious-I couldn't live with myself.

After all that he's done? It doesn't feel that way. I don't mean that in a, "Now it's not a big deal, so it's fine, I'll just go ahead."

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah, totally, I totally get it.

CLIENT: It's not like that. But it doesn't feel that way anymore.

THERAPIST: I actually think that's good, in that you know maybe there's space, then, not to stay with him only because you're terrified to leave.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: So that's good, I think. Now you feel more of the freedom, Ramona, that you could leave if that's what it came to. And you'd be okay. It would be very painful, but it's not a, "My world will end," kind of feeling.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: That's good. I actually think that's also the healthiest place you've ever been around it. Now you get to say if you're going to be with him, it might be because you want to. [00:58:00] Not because you're terrified to leave, but because you want to work on it.

CLIENT: And that's difficult because if we were dating, no way. If we were starting fresh and I was choosing him, no way!

But that must be the way it is in marriages, because when things like that happen, you don't get to step outside and say, "I'd be breaking up with him over this, right now." That's the whole point of making the commitment.

THERAPIST: A higher level of commitment. If you had kids, it might be an even higher level of commitment.

CLIENT: I am so grateful we don't, which is horrible.

THERAPIST: But that's part of the reality about what people have sewn together, and how much harder it is to take that apart.

You are in a level of marriage, that's different than dating. And it's different than having children together, too.

What's so hard about this is you're trying to figure what you give up, what feels worth it to you to stick through this commitment. [00:59:00] And when it becomes that you're hurting yourself too much in order to stick to a commitment. You very much value the commitment you made, Ramona. That's so clear. In a way that a lot of people leave impulsively are not thinking about this in the thoughtful way that you are, about how this matters.

And yet, does it matter so that it's worth sacrificing your life for it, right, is the question. And I think you're trying to figure out is it (inaudible at 00:59:32) sacrificing my life, or is there a way to build a life inside this where I can be happy [in love] (ph)?

It's hard, I know, that you can't answer that question today. I think you're doing everything you can right now, all the right things, to try to just, again, slow down and think about how you feel. When you're talking to him, how does this feel? "Do I trust him? Do I trust him so that I want to see him again next weekend? Do I miss him? Am I missing him and that's the only thing driving me back and then I'm sort of taking what I can get?" [01:00:02] Instead of saying, "No, Ivan, actually, this is what I have to hear in order for this to even be workable."

I think picturing yourself alone, picturing yourself with him, keep trying those on for size in your mind. And trying to see which one feels like it's the life that you feel better about right now. I know it's hard to imagine, you wouldn't break up and then get back together in a year, but you also can't know a year from now. What you can know is what you're going to do right now, what feels like the right thing to do for yourself.

And it's incredibly challenging, because there are multiple conflicting needs you have. Your need for a commitment to your marriage is very important to you. Your need for Ivan to more mature in the way he handles things rather than avoidant is very important to you. These things are in conflict. How do you figure, in the sum total of the things that are important for your life, what do you want to do? [01:01:03]

Given that knowing right now, one thing, you give something up; if you do the other path, you give this up. There isn't going to be an answer that means that there's not something you give up. And I think the more you kind of know (inaudible at 01:01:14) exactly what it is, is trying to weigh all the options right now. And give yourself time.

CLIENT: I have this weird feeling. Like I say, I go back and forth from Ivan and I could be moving in a couple-what if that could be happening, in a month-and-a-half, that he and I were moving in together into a new place?

And then there's this other part of me that's like, "I'm going to be moving by myself." There's also this embarrassing but... When he talks about what he did and why did it, he keeps saying, "I really wanted to have more sex with you. I really wondered what that could feel like. I really wanted to fantasize about what it could be." [01:02:01] And I say, "I don't think you went on those sites because you were looking for me."

But that's what he keeps saying, in essence. And part of me feels like I want to have sex with my husband. Which is the most bizarre, insane thing to have cross your mind when your husband is doing all these things and you couldn't possibly actually feel attracted to him. But in a fantasy, think about... It's very bizarre, and I guess [laughs] that's why I'm telling you, because it's very, very bizarre.

THERAPIST: I don't think it's bizarre, and let me tell you why. One of the things that can happen I know this seems like a strange way of (inaudible at 01:02:41) but when one member of a couple has an affair, or gets caught online with porn (inaudible at 01:02:47) or something like that, sometimes that's the moment when it finally gets known to both of them that they really do want to have a relationship with each other.

If, for example, the woman feels hurt, "Wait, I don't want you looking at those women!" [01:03:04] Whereas up to that point, she was mad at him, she didn't want to deal (ph) with him. But all of the sudden, she realized, "Wait, no, I actually want you to want me." Sometimes that is the point when people get caught and are aware of what they desire from the other person.

And this is where I know this sounds strange to say sometimes, this kind of thing leads to greater intimacy in the long run, because it bubbles up to the surface, something that was really hard to address, otherwise. It's painful and horrible for a while, but it becomes a way of becoming clearer, having a conversation about what you want from each other.

I still think, from you, you could say to him, "Okay, if you wanted that, we have to start with having a conversation and talking about cleaning the slate a little bit back. That's the way you get what you want. That's the way you could have gotten me. You don't just get me by sneaking something on the side! Or we don't talk, we don't talk, we don't talk, and then we sleep together? [01:04:00] It just doesn't work that way! Maybe it'll work that way for another woman, maybe you want to have that random relationship with that woman online, but that's not me. That's not who I am, that's not how I tick, that's not how it works for me. So if you want me, these are the kinds of things that need to happen for me."

And that you wouldn't be being crazy for those things, do you know what I mean? That's a pretty ordinary thing.

I think he does want to be with you, but I think he, himself, is terrified of bringing together it all in one relationship. Backdoor-pornography's very easy. You don't have a relationship with that person at all, right? It's very safe.

CLIENT: But here's the thing. Now I know even after last session now I know that he sometimes looked at, I don't know if it's porn, per se, but nude yoga and, whatever, on YouTube, even back when we were dating.

And when we were dating? Ivan and I, we made out all the time. We never had sex, but we had a very, very consistent [laughs] part of our physical relationship, and we enjoyed it. We were [laughs] consistently. [01:05:00]

THERAPIST: We have to stop. So much more to talk about. Ramona, I'm so glad. I just want to you, today, I felt like you could come in and say, "I didn't like what you said," or, "This hurt me," in a way that didn't feel like just scathing criticism. It actually felt like you were communicating effectively and productively and with confidence something you felt to try to get it aired and work it out.

If you're bringing this to him or to any relationship on the outside, it's such a stabler place of getting your own needs met. So I'm so glad you told me. I am sorry if the way or the tone or the focus of my commentary last time really heightened, for you, that you're just working on trying to get over. It's not my intention at all. It's only my intention to try to [keep in] (ph) the whole picture of two whole people, so that as you're continuing to make this decision, it's from knowledge of everything, rather than knowledge of only one part that's easier to know than the other parts. [01:06:00] Does that make sense?

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: Okay. I'll call if we have anything open up.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: And I'll see you Monday, either way.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay.

END TRANSCRIPT