TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: I just charged it, so it shouldn't do that. [laughs]

It sounds like you felt like she was really understanding that you have some things to be very upset about and critical of. There's a validation of your criticism, at last! [laughs]

CLIENT: It did. And it also, I guess, felt good to me to have someone objective, professional, with no personal agenda saying to Ivan, "This is a big deal."

And I additionally felt, I guess, a little-like that was reinforced, because Ivan talked to me about he saw Dr. Bourd (sp?) yesterday and he said that Dr. Bourd pointed out that you and Dr. Farrow (sp?) had both said that I had been doing a lot of work, and that he thought that he should voice that appreciation to me for the way I've been dealing with the situation. [00:01:00]

And then Ivan, after saying, he prompted me-he said that I should say this, he said, "I just want to let you know I do appreciate that you've been working a lot and I do see some changes in you and appreciate that you're letting me make some of these attempts."

That was a big deal.

THERAPIST: That's huge, too!

CLIENT: That was a big deal. So I guess the sum is that we have another appointment with her. I'm going to take, I guess, my whole lunch break on Wednesday.

If I'm truthful, it's a mix of feelings. And I'm actually pretty resentful. Part of me is like, "I really don't want to take my second full day at my new job and not get to eat lunch because I'm rushing across, timing everything out by the minute, and spending money on what's going to be a difficult session and then go back and pretend like it's not on my mind." [00:02:03]

That's a lot. Why should I have to do that?

THERAPIST: That is a lot. That's a lot in your first week.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's a lot. And I guess part of me, even if I feel willing [sighs] or I feel obligated to this, I am-I think it's maybe natural to resent it somewhat, because I felt like we were-I felt like I was doing a lot of work and putting a ton of time and money into these sessions for many, many months.

And to find out that a lot of it was kind of-he was doing these other things along the way that I had no clue about. It feels like, "Why am I doing this again?"

I feel like that's normal. [laughs] I feel like that's like a-I feel okay about having that reaction.

THERAPIST: So understandable. So understandable.

CLIENT: And I feel okay, because it's not completely I mean, sometimes it feels like it but it's not completely overshadowing the-if I am going to give this any type of chance, I am going to-maybe I'm going to have some restrictions. [00:03:08] Like, I will go if this is happening, I will go if... But to consider doing it and continuing...?

THERAPIST: And even for you to be able to say, "There's a part of me that really wants to go, because this is important to me," and, "I simultaneously feel really resentful and angry about the fact that we're now almost getting started, after all this work already."

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You can have both of those feelings right next each other and not have the one feel like it has to erase or invalidate the other.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: They're both your feelings. And they're in conflict, even.

Does it feel to you, Ramona, like it is too much for your first week? I just want to make sure you also feel like...

CLIENT: Yes. No, it's too much.

THERAPIST: Okay. Because that sounds valid. Is it the best idea? Do you want to wait until the following week, even though you might be in a different place? [00:04:00]

CLIENT: I don't know. Because Dr. Farrow has a one-week policy, so we already would have to pay the whole fee (ph). It's almost impossible, because he made the appointment eight days in advance, and she's like, "Well, I need to know by tomorrow, if it doesn't work." [laughs]

So I think I have to go. But I had kind of voiced this (inaudible at 00:04:21). [laughs]

THERAPIST: It sounds like a lot on you, I'm just (crosstalk at 00:04:31).

CLIENT: No, it is.

THERAPIST: Maybe if you'd had the space to really think more about what you need. You do want to have the appointment, but if you'd waited another week, it wouldn't have been the end of the world and you'd have an easier first week of adjustment.

I also think if it's absolutely too much the day of, you cancel. You figure a way to pay for it. That's legitimate, too. That happens sometimes for people. I know it's expensive, but if it makes the whole thing just feel frenetically crazy, it's going to be a waste of your time anyway. [00:05:04] Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: The other thing is I think the lunchtime is probably the only opportunity. She said she could maybe do it really early Thursday morning, but I already said that's earmarked for me, if that's possible. So I think it's always going to be a lunchtime, if it works.

I guess she sometimes does go 5:00 to 6:00, but she doesn't have any of those available, which I'm sure a lot of people who work 9:00 to 5:00, they took those slots. [laughs]

It's hard, because I think for those sessions especially, right afterwards, I'm so-there's so much going on. It might be hard to go back and... So we'll see, but...

THERAPIST: I also wonder and sort of think that you're being in a different place around your and Ivan, too but what you are able to continue to facilitate so that the dynamic in the room changed. [00:06:01]. So that Ivan, he's working on owning more of his stuff and talking more. And you're also saying, "Yeah, no, I'm actually going to pass the ball to him and he can-I'm not going to lead off. Let's let Ivan talk."

In some ways, I think that's a piece of what I could imagine opened up Dr. Farrow's empathy even more. Had it been just you complaining again and Ivan only, "Look how she shames me by talking this way to me," it's a different kind of feeling.

And just as I said to you, your capacity to feel your complaints are totally legitimate. Not sort of insistently, urgently trying to find that they're legitimate, but yet it feels more like you embody just knowing it more allowed her to have that much more empathy towards you.

And I'm so glad. [00:07:00] It's really important that that space, that that being marked. And it's not coming from me, then, and it's not coming from Dr. Bourd, it's coming from this mutual person that knows both of you. That that is very real.

CLIENT: So I guess on the one hand, I feel like Ivan has continued to make some progress this week. We had agreed that Tuesday, after our session since we were agreeing to see each other twice a week we could do dinner.

Things kind of started off on the wrong foot, because he was going to meet me at the apartment at 1:00. We were going to leave by 1:30 at the latest, to allow an hour to drive there because sometimes with traffic, it can take a long time.

And at 1:20, he's still not there, still not there. In fact, he had asked, "Can I come over at noon? I just want to see you for a little bit. We can get a start on dinner." I said, "No, why don't we just stick with 1:00?"

So 1:20, he's not there. [00:08:00 I call after him, and part of me was so, "I shouldn't be calling after him. If he doesn't show up, he's going to need to pay for the appointment and I'm not going to do it, because this is the classic me chasing after him."

So I called. [laughs] He's like, "Oh, I just lost track of time. I'll be over in 15 or 20." So he shows up at 1:40. So he's 40 minutes late. We were on time for the appointment, we were even a few minutes early. Traffic was good. We were lucky.

But I was so-for whatever reason, it tipped the scale in the moment for me, because I shouldn't have to be doing this. You wanted to be an hour early. Instead, you were almost an hour late. Is this important or not?

And he always uses the, "Time got away from me," or, "I lost track." Mmm. It's not exactly-so if you need to set an alarm if you're doing whatever and you're-

THERAPIST: He's not a child anymore. He can figure a way around that.

CLIENT: Right! [00:09:00] Literally set your phone to go off and there's nothing wrong with that.

So I was really upset, and then at one point, I said, "Let's just start over and pretend like it didn't-just let it go and move on if we're going to do this session."

And so we did. And then afterwards, he came home. He ran to the store for a couple ingredients. He wanted to make-and he's like, "I've got dinner." And I said, "I can help." "No, I got it."

So he made a really nice dinner. He got some roses at the store. He set the table, he put out a candle-I mean, this is huge for Ivan huge.

We had a really, really nice dinner. And we watched some TV afterwards. And we just sat together. And we talked some, and it was good. It was good.

The only thing is, at a certain point, I started saying, "Oh, you know, it's getting close to 10:00. [00:10:01] I think you should probably get going. It's getting late." [He's like] (ph), "Well, I was thinking I could stay a little later," and... [sighs] I don't know-

THERAPIST: He said, "I was thinking I could stay a little later"?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Is that how he said it?

CLIENT: Yeah, something, like, "I was thinking"-

THERAPIST: As a statement.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, which maybe he-yeah.

THERAPIST: Very different than, "Well, how would it feel if I were to stay a little longer?" What would that be like for you?

CLIENT: I think part of him is so eager to jump into these positive things. I find myself reminding him... But it's good to have positive time and it's good to even have conversations where we don't go near all the issues, that's probably important.

But I think, if we're meeting twice a week, part of those meetings need to be about what's going on. Because I don't want, in a few months, to say, "Oh, well, we made some progress, now let's talk about those problems." [00:11:01] The delayed, it's too much for me.

THERAPIST: And I think it will become artificial for you, this sort of...

CLIENT: Yeah!

THERAPIST: ...if you start just only pretending things are just totally fine, that's actually not true...

CLIENT: Right!

THERAPIST: ...and that you won't want to kiss him anymore. Right?

CLIENT: Right!

THERAPIST: That kind of intimacy was growing out of it being addressed in a real way...

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: ...really being in the issues together.

CLIENT: So there wasn't any-so I think that was hard for him.

So Tuesday night he went to hug me, which I said was fine, he asked about that. But then he kissed my neck, and he's like, "Oh, maybe I should have asked about that." And I said, "Ivan, I'm starting to notice you're doing some things and immediately after, you're feigning, like, 'Should have asked about that,' and that's not okay."

I'm not sure he appreciates so much the act itself might not be a huge deal, but the importance of asking and getting permission and that that's really... I don't trust him. [00:12:03] And these huge things leave me feeling different about it. And this week, I feel different than I did last week about it, even. [sighs]

I let him borrow the car, because I said, "It is getting late." He needed to open, so he needed to be at work at 4:30 in the morning. I said, "Okay, you can borrow the car," which he hadn't done since he moved out, because it's my car.

And I said, "If you want," he-he hasn't had a haircut in months, either, from me, and that's kind of different. So I said, "If you want to borrow it, you can do to that, as well. I won't be home until the evening."

So anyway, he let me know when he-I stayed at the hospital late, volunteering, so I didn't get until after 7:00. He said, "I'll pick you at the subway (ph). I still have the car, I was going to drop it off, I'll pick you up at the subway (ph)." And I said, "You don't have to." So he volunteered to pick me up at the subway (ph). And he asked, "Did you ever get lunch or dinner? [00:13:01] Are you hungry?" And I said, "No, but just focus on getting your-get your haircut, just focus on yourself."

So he showed up. He picked me up at the subway (ph). He was already waiting for me.

THERAPIST: With a haircut?

CLIENT: With a haircut. [laughs] But also he picked up subs. He picked up dinner, because he knew I was hungry and it was getting late. So that was...

THERAPIST: Thinking about you (crosstalk at 00:13:25).

CLIENT: ...really nice. This was really, really nice, really thoughtful. He wouldn't have had to do that. Even if had said, "Let's go back to the apartment and I'll put together leftovers or something," that was really nice.

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:13:34)

CLIENT: That was all great. And then we did the same thing, kind of. We ate at the table. We spent time talking. And then we watched an episode of a TV show. And then it was getting towards 10:00 again and I'm like, "Ivan, I think you should go," and again, "Thinking I could stay a little later."

He doesn't want to leave. [00:14:00] It is weird. It is weird, but... Then I started about a little bit an element that Dr. Farrow had brought into the conversation, something that I had sort of asked about before, which was... Ivan claims that looking at these websites and even his Life After Ramona [laughs] Google documents folder, his list of what he's looking for in a woman, she's like, "Even if they're all fantasy, at some point, part of you knew that none of those things were ever going to connect you to your wife. Even if that was part of the motivating feeling," and that that bothered me.

And I said I wanted to talk about that and I have questions. It got very frustrating, because at this point, I want Ivan to be brutally honest. And I don't think anything is going to-I mean, it might get worse, but I think whatever it is, I just want to know. [00:15:06]

THERAPIST: You would rather know what's really going on inside him.

CLIENT: Right. So, I mean, if the-I mean, if he's painting it in this favorable light of, "Oh, I really want this for my wife"? It sounds different. It's hard, because even with-something that bothers me even maybe more than the profiles is the list he made of what he was looking for in a woman.

And he's like, "I was really angry when I wrote that. I was really frustrated." And there were things that he pointedly-the way he wrote it, it was the opposite of me, like something he was attacking about me personally. "Someone who doesn't have crippling daddy issues," was one of the things that he wrote.

And I'm like, "Do you really think that [laughs] about me? Clearly [laughs] I had a difficult relationship with my dad, but do you really... After all the work I've done and after all the-do you really think that about me?" [00:16:02] He's like, "I was so angry. I was so..." [sighs]

THERAPIST: I think, in some ways, another way of putting what you're trying to say is that, "Okay, he's angry," and, "Okay, in some ways these are fantasies we're talking about." Okay, maybe he wasn't actually going to go do any of these things.

But there still is an action that's actually happening in him making the list. Do you see what I mean?

CLIENT: Right! No, there is.

THERAPIST: [So that] (ph) he actually doing something. He's not doing the even-louder thing, but doing something in making lists. And he's doing something in signing on that is important to you to understand, because...

CLIENT: It is!

THERAPIST: ...it's actually very different than not doing those things. A lot of people feel furious at their spouse and don't go make a list of all the things they'd want in someone else, that specifically is scathing criticism of their spouse. A lot of people would not do that when they're very, very angry. [00:17:00]

CLIENT: And I do think there's even a difference from having the thought being an enraged, "Boy, she has crippling..." thinking that and sitting down and typing it. Even sitting down and write it on a piece of paper and throwing it away, getting rid of the anger? That's even different, maybe. But this is, like, 75 qualities...

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:17:21) file.

CLIENT: ...that he wrote. And some of it was the opposite. And some of them were qualities that I have, very clearly still about me. And some of them were things that even he was angry about things about me were 5'3" to 5'9" I can never be that tall. And when I point those out to-whatever reason, that height thing bothers me more than maybe any of the others.

And when I point that out to him, he says, "Well, in my mind, I was thinking I wouldn't want someone who reminded me of you. In my mind I was thinking I already lost you. [00:18:00] He's never going to have anyone else, but I don't want someone who would remind me of you."

And I said, "Then you were thinking about what you were looking for. Part of you had that fantasy, even if you were never going to act on it. Even if, say, we..." [sighs] And he says, "I was never thinking about what I was looking for in someone else. I was never looking for someone else." And I said, "How does that go together? You write down a certain criterion that I could never-it's not something you're mad at me about. You don't want to be reminded in a future person, and yet you say, 'The thought about a future person never crossed my mind.'"

So I don't know if the thought about a future person never crossed his mind in, "I'm serious about this. This is something I would do," or if it crossed his mind in an abstract... It's very weird.

THERAPIST: One version of the abstract could be something-which is sort of both, in that sometimes people, if they're really angry at someone they love could have the fantasy of another person. [00:19:06] Not so much about the other person, but it's almost a form of getting back. It's a way of hurting the person you really love.

CLIENT: Which isn't (ph) right.

THERAPIST: Which means it's actually still about you. It's not about-

CLIENT: Which is what a lot of that seems to be. Even, he wrote, "Someone who doesn't think that a group of 12 people for dinner is a big dinner." Because his family, when they have a small get-together, that's at least a dozen people. Sometimes, that's been overwhelming for me. But I've gone to all the family events that's he's-for years!

And so, I mean even, "Someone who has had five or less sexual partners." Why is that? "Because I didn't think I could ever find someone else who waited until marriage." He's saying these things, and I'm like, "So you're not thinking about someone else ever, and yet there are these things that-" They're not criticisms of me...

THERAPIST: Yeah, that's not a criticism.

CLIENT: They're not positives of me. They're just things that would never... That didn't bother him about me, but that I also could never be. [00:20:08]

So I'm like, "Where does that come from? And I got so frustrated with him, because I felt like he kept saying, "I was never looking for someone else. I entitled it Introspection." He's like, "It was a tool to show me that I was being an idiot and that I didn't want anything else." And I think that's really extreme.

THERAPIST: It's just hard to buy. And that's the part of you that's going, like, "Really? That doesn't sound like what's happening."

CLIENT: All the stories around the-they're all pretty extreme, and yet, Dr. Bourd seems to buy it, in that this is consistent. His escapist, it's very, very bizarre. But maybe it's legitimate. Not that it's okay but that this is actually happening to him.

It's really hard for me, at that point, because I'm not trying to [laughs] find an explanation that is particularly damning. [00:21:02] I'm not trying to find one that paints him as this wonderful, devoted husband who had a lapse of judgment.

But I really want to know what's going on. And it feels like either he doesn't know, or he's really reluctant to come clean, because he doesn't have to, at this point. I mean, no one's ever going to know what went through his mind when he wrote that.

But so I guess the point of the story was I got really, really upset, because he was facing me and talking to me and looking at me, which is huge for Ivan. And using his normal voice. He wasn't moping and the whole-which I can't [laugh] it's critical of me, but I can't deal with it anymore.

THERAPIST: Yeah, no. I don't blame (ph) you. I know what you're talking about it. It's not having a two-person conversation with someone, (crosstalk at 00:21:49).

CLIENT: Right. And I guess, especially given the fact that he-I always hated that he became the victim. He became the person who could barely get words out. Who could only look at the floor. And it's like, "Wait a minute! [00:22:00] [laughs] I'm not beating you up! You did this!"

So it was great that he was talking to me and looking at-this was good, but then there came a point when I kept-when I wouldn't let that thread go. I really wanted to know, "How do you make a list of what you're looking for in a person without ever even thinking what you're looking for in a person? How do you look at naked women and say, 'I never thought about those women'? I only thought about you."

There's a part of me that thinks that that's not all true, maybe. And I don't know. And I don't know. But I guess the point he wouldn't-there came a point where he just wouldn't answer anymore. Started staring at the floor, totally shut down. And I got so frustrated, I said, "Then just go."

And the worst part is he picked up his shoes and walked out the door. And that was it. And didn't call and didn't-and didn't nothing. And I thought...

And I even said to him, "Then we don't need to talk anymore." [00:23:02] I got so angry, because I thought, "Wait a minute. I'm giving you these chances and we are (inaudible at 00:23:07). Things were going well-ish [laughs] as well as they could be and no. I can't accept that you're going to shut down and not answer and we're going to go back to this. Because I can't do that anymore."

THERAPIST: Yeah. What it sounds like would be helpful is if he... Here's what I think, backing up for a second, this is what I'm trying to say. I don't think Ivan yet understand what he was doing.

So I don't think he's in a place where he knows the answer but he's hiding it from you. I think he's still trying to understand it himself. He doesn't get it.

So I don't know that he's going to be able to come up with an explanation. It's not a matter of, "Okay, if I really tell her the real answer." I don't think he gets it yet about himself. It takes sometimes people five years to figure out their stuff in therapy.

So but what he doesn't yet have in his repertoire which I think would feel very different for you is if he said, "Ramona. I think you're asking me questions about things that I just don't actually know the honest answer. [00:24:10] And maybe I'm trying to tell you something that I wish it is, but maybe that's not true. So can we table it? Because I don't want to tell you some things that are not true. Give me some more time to work on this, and we'll talk about another piece of it some more."

That would feel different, right? That's not a kind of shutting down.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I guess in some form of fairness he has told that he and Dr. Bourd are trying to work through it and figure out exactly what's going on and that he, in his words, "Dr. Bourd is very dedicated, very persistent about finding out what's going with it."

[sighs] So I think, on some level, he's aware. It's hard for me, because even if Ivan said to me, "Yeah, I mean, of course, when I saw those pictures and stuff, I thought about it even if it was only brief. Of course I thought about it." [00:25:03] But he's even telling me the YouTube videos, he says, "Oh, I started out looking for how to give a massage. And then it led to this. And then it led to that. And then it led to... And then I did click on it. I didn't watch the whole thing, but..." And it's always this really innocent, really...

And of course I would love to believe that! Of course I would to-but I don't know if Ivan realizes...

THERAPIST: Or even, Ramona, let's say for a second that's even true. It still doesn't explain. Another person might stop continuing to click at a certain point, right?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And he didn't. That's still what he has to understand. What was he going after? What is he looking for?

I actually think and this is why I say to you that the only part that's yours in that conversation is how, yourself, to try to bear more of the uncertainty for a little while. Because I just think if we come up with an explanation right now, it's going to be a fake one, no matter what it is.

CLIENT: Right. [00:26:00]

THERAPIST: He just doesn't know enough about it yet. I don't think Dr. Bourd knows enough about it yet.

So I don't think there's going to be any explanation. I even think if he says, "Okay, Ramona, I'll admit to you, it was all about that other woman. I was fantasizing about having an affair. I was fantasizing (inaudible at 00:26:15) divorce." I actually think that would be a lie. That's too clean. That's actually not what's happening. When that's what's happening, it doesn't take this shape.

The list of things! People who are really wanting out of their marriage, that's not what happens. That's not the way it goes!

CLIENT: That's even (crosstalk at 00:26:33) bizarre, because I thought about it from my-could I feel that, because clearly, I guess, I feel like I have a lot of things to be angry with Ivan about.

THERAPIST: Yeah!

CLIENT: But when I think about it, I think what I'm upset with Ivan about it or what I wish Ivan would change or what I wish... Or even I wish Ivan would work 9:00 to 5:00, like my friend Helen's boyfriend. I don't know. It's very weird. It's very bizarre. [00:27:00] And it sounds like a, I don't know.

I don't know if Ivan appreciates that even the thought of him looking at some women [laughs] doing yoga nude, that that's wrong and that bothers me on (inaudible at 00:27:17) level. But it doesn't really bother me in the way that the profiles and the list. And even them, in and of themselves, aren't the-it's more like the thought process behind them.

THERAPIST: Yep. The list, for example, there's very disturbed about it. That's what I'm trying to say. It's not even what people do if they're going to be going to have an affair. Or they totally want to get a divorce. It's just not the way it comes out.

You're trying to get it. What is that? What is this about him? You want to know, like, what are you in for? And is this going to change? What is this thing? That (ph) I think he just doesn't know yet. He's probably working on it. [00:28:00]

What I guess I'm cautious about is it feels like pressuring him for the answer or telling yourself that's being too critical, to want an answer. Or that you shouldn't want an answer which isn't true, either! You're going to need an answer to that, ultimately, Ramona. I think you're going to need to get that and feel that it's moving and changing in a way that you trust in order for you to want to stay in this marriage.

CLIENT: That's the thing. I feel like I do need answers. But the other thing is, even him walking out that night, the next day, he's apologetic eventually.

And I get that. But I think I'm kind of at a point where it might not be fair. But clearly he's not changing overnight, even if there are lots of positive things happening which I hope there are, obviously. [00:29:00]

If there was another betrayal on this level at all, a personal betrayal like that, I don't think I could take it. And I think, at this point, if I left? Right now, I feel like I don't-I wouldn't be leaving because he assaulted me. I wouldn't be leaving because he made the profiles. I would be leaving because he avoids. And that doesn't feel... I guess I don't feel like I have a real reason to leave, at this point. In my mind, I'm like... [sighs] At least with the work he's been doing.

And it's so stupid, [laughs] I know this story will sound so stupid. But the other night Tuesday night while he was making dinner. Tuesday night was amazing. And something reminded me of this time when we were dating and... You know when you go to the movies and the popcorn is as expensive as the movie?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh! [laughs]

CLIENT: It's really expensive, but it's really good, even though it's disgusting and oily and greasy. [00:30:02] Ivan knows that I really like that. And we went to the movies pretty rarely. I mean, it's kind of expensive, whatever.

There was a night we were going to do-we were going to watch a movie at home. We were going to watch a movie on our own. This is back while we were dating. And he went to a movie theater and bought popcorn and soda [laughs] and brought it for the-which was [laughs] so embarrassing. I mean, who's that guy who walks in just to buy popcorn? But it was really sweet that he was-

THERAPIST: It's adorable!

CLIENT: It was adorable.

THERAPIST: I don't think that's stupid at all! I think that's (crosstalk at 00:30:36).

CLIENT: And I thought about that. And I thought... You don't stay married to someone because they bought you popcorn one time. But there's definitely that side. And the side that made dinner and the side that showed up to pick me up from the subway and brought subs.

THERAPIST: And that's really happening, too.

CLIENT: It's hard. And here's the other... It's really, really bad timing, but I need to move, pretty much. [00:31:05]

THERAPIST: You do.

CLIENT: "Need," I don't know if it's the appropriate word. But the point is, my lease is up October 27th. At which point, I can renew the lease and then if I leave at some point, I have to wait for them to re-rent (ph) the apartment. So that's not an option, given that it's definitely going to be a three-hour commute every day. That's kind of crazy. Since there are apartments that are comparably priced that are a lot, a lot closer.

So I even asked my dad, because I don't trust myself to be objective at this point, "Is that...?" He's like, "Well, that's maybe a no-brainer, if you can get a similar apartment, similar money, a lot closer. That's a wise decision."

But the point is, that would put me on a month-to-month, which is over $300 more a month. So it would behoove me to move sooner than later.

THERAPIST: You're saying if you stayed, it would be month-to-month...

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: ...just trying to figure out what to do next. [00:32:01]

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Yes, yes.

CLIENT: So starting November, it's going to be a huge, huge increase.

THERAPIST: And where you're looking to moving, are you imagining a studio, one-bedroom, with roommates...?

CLIENT: So that's the thing. That's the thing. Ivan and I are still separated, obviously, and we, I think, need to stay that way for two, three months, at least. And even that feels a little scary, because I want to believe that he's going to redouble his efforts and all this good stuff will continue and I will get more answers and I want to believe that. So I don't know.

But that's the thing. I started looking at one-bedrooms, because...

THERAPIST: If it's comparable...

CLIENT: Right. It is comparable.

THERAPIST: ...if you could afford that, you might want that, either way. Is that right, or...?

CLIENT: It is comparable to what we have. We have a one-bedroom now a 600-square-foot one-bedroom. It's kind of small.

That's the thing. I could technically afford it, once I start working, but it would be much more ideal, much more affordable, if it was for the two of us. [00:33:02]

So I guess I'm looking with (inaudible at 00:33:06) in mind that he would be moving in. It feels scary, because I don't even want to say, "I'm going to be moving on this date and I'm counting on you moving in and picking up half the rent," because then I have this secret worry that he's going to put his best foot forward for that amount of time, knowing that that's what we're working towards. And what if that's just because of that?

THERAPIST: Yeah. You don't sound like you're actually convinced, Ramona, right now, that that is exactly what you want.

CLIENT: So we've had three weeks in which he is pretty consistently aside from the couples' put in a lot of effort. He's been really working with Dr. Bourd, is setting up appointments-lots of good things. He's reading these books. He's showing up. He's making efforts. This is good. I think I need to see that over and over and over. [00:34:01] And I think we would need to get to it seeing each other more than twice a week before I say...

THERAPIST: Move in.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And you need to build up more trust that you consistently see that over a long period of time.

So it's dangerous, maybe, to go in thinking, "Okay. I'm renting this place because I'm assuming he's going to move in." I wonder if you could try to say to yourself, "I need to rent a place and know that there is a chance that I'm going to have to pay for it by myself for a year." And that if that happens, it happens. And it might be tight in your budget. And then if you know at the end of the year you're not getting back together, you could move to a different place.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Right? In other words, not [bite off] (ph) something that absolutely isn't manageable...

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: ...on your own.

CLIENT: It would be. It just would be tight. And I'm hoping to pay off as much of my loans as I can. An $1,800 apartment is doable for two people. It's tight for somebody in my shoes.

THERAPIST: Of course. Could you look at a studio? [00:35:00]

CLIENT: I could, but then there's no chance of him moving in.

THERAPIST: No? [Not to a studio] (ph)?

CLIENT: I mean, there could be, but I think that would be really-I mean, [laughs] I guess I learned in a one-bedroom with two separate rooms, basically, that can be...

THERAPIST: Tight anyway, I know. [laughs]

CLIENT: Right! That can be snug, when your option is to be in the bedroom, or in the living room, dining room. [laughs] So I think no.

And the other thing, the studios aren't going to be that much less. So to pay, like, $1,700 or so for a studio seems silly when...

THERAPIST: Makes a lot of sense (inaudible at 00:35:34).

I think as long as the mind frame is, "He might not move in," and just to be prepared amongst the possibilities. That you want to not feel like it's a way of sort of backing into this. (crosstalk at 00:35:50)

CLIENT: Right, and I don't even want to find myself looking only for the positive and kind of putting on blinders. Because really [need him] (ph) to move in. Really need to get this apartment squared away. [laughs] [00:36:00]

I told my mom what was going on, and she said, "Well, you're not looking towards a permanent separation." She said, "So I think you would be thinking about, eventually, him moving back in." Which makes sense. But then she's like, "Well, then I think you need to take him to see the apartments," which seems fair if he's moving in three months, but...

THERAPIST: I don't agree.

CLIENT: [laughs] It's okay to-

THERAPIST: I don't agree. Right now, you are separated. And he needs to earn his way back into your life. If he doesn't like the apartment, he can deal for a year if it means you're getting back together. That seems like a-the message it sends by having him look at the apartment with you and have a choice in it really puts the message you're trying to deliver to him, really compromises it. For what, so he can like the apartment a little bit more? I'm sure you're going to pick a decent apartment, Ramona.

CLIENT: Okay. That's the thing, because I don't want to, on one hand, saying, "Actually, if these certain things don't happen, forget about it." [00:37:04] Or even, "I'm not going to couples' with you if these things aren't happening."

And on the other hand, saying, "But I'm sure everything is going to be squared away in two or three months, so I really want you to like this place."

THERAPIST: Yeah, exactly. Your mom's saying, "Well, you're not having a permanent separation." I think we don't know that yet, Ramona. So I would not say that statement definitively right now. If you're saying that statement definitively, it means you are doing the thing that you've asked me to help you not do. You don't know. Is this going to be a permanent separation or are you going to get back together soon? You don't know.

CLIENT: I feel like I don't know know. But I guess three weeks is, like I said, it's such a short amount of time. But I feel like if that continued and even redoubled, then I would feel clearly that we were moving towards resolving.

THERAPIST: Yep. It would be huge. That's what you're hoping, is that continues, because that would be enough for you, I hear you saying. [00:38:02] He's making enough changes that you'd absolutely want him back in your life.

So the scale's tipping like this right now. But what we don't want to have happen is as it tips, do you then forget about this? And what if there is still some secret betrayal that you don't know anything about right now? That you're going to find out about three months from now? I'm hoping that doesn't happen, too, [laughs] of course! Or what if, in two weeks' time, all of this starts to fall off again?

You don't want to ignore the data that is going like this. That's really real. And yet, the things that were meant that you separated to begin with are really real and important, too, to not be forgotten.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: So hopefully it goes to this! And the decision's made. But you're just trying to keep, I think, keeping the, "I don't know, so I'm going to proceed trying to keep both options open."

I do think picking out a place, it's like the-it's not that much skin off his back if he doesn't like the kitchen or something. [00:39:03] You guys will move in a year. If you're happy, blissfully married at that point, great. You'll get a kitchen that he likes. [laughs]

CLIENT: It's a ridiculous question, but then do I put his name on the application? Do I put...?

THERAPIST: It's not a ridiculous question, (crosstalk at 00:39:18).

CLIENT: I need to-

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: I wonder if I would even need-I don't know if my income would be enough. Somebody's who's only ever been in school, I don't know if my income would be enough. And the other thing is, I don't know if I can in three months in, "By the way, my husband is moving in." So I wonder if I would put him on and then... Take him off. Or if things didn't work out, or...

THERAPIST: Would he need to sign it, then? He would, right?

CLIENT: I think I could-I already saw the application, they already sent it to me for the one place. And I would need-whomever was the primary applicant needs to sign it. And they would probably check my credit and stuff like that.

THERAPIST: Okay. And not his?

CLIENT: Probably not.

THERAPIST: Because I'm wondering, is there a way of putting him and not having him know about it for the time being? [00:40:00]

CLIENT: I don't know if I can-if I'm moving into a place, I don't know if I can say...

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:40:08)

CLIENT: ...you can't move here. [laughs]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. Oh, you mean, you'd let him move in (crosstalk at 00:40:14).

CLIENT: No, no! No, not for months.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: The very soonest I could think would be the beginning of December, which is maybe too soon. So no, not for a while. But eventually. His stuff is still at the apartment, [that would move] (ph).

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. Yeah. What feels different is that he has to come to the appointment with you and you both are signing this? That feels a little bit too fast for that. But if there's way of, "Okay, my husband is likely going to be here with me, too," but you get to do most of the application, you're the one signing? That makes sense.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: If you could do it without his income, do it. [00:41:00] I think you can even ask them, "This is the scenario," you may not want to say that, but...

CLIENT: I really don't.

THERAPIST: ... "My husband might move in with me." Yeah, okay.

CLIENT: Yeah. But they would ask his name, his relationship to me, and his other income from the apartment. So I think that would technically be okay. He could stay where he is for at least a couple more months or so.

THERAPIST: And if he had to sign it, you could have a conversation saying, "This does not mean we are going to be doing this. But I'm trying to keep all the options open right now. And I want to be clear that I'm hoping this happens, but I also don't know that it's going to happen. I want to just make sure we have the chance, if that's what we want in the future."

CLIENT: Yeah. I really, also, don't want to-I know myself, and I don't want to get swept up in the notion of, "If he moves in on December, we will be living in the same apartment for Christmas." That idea of... That's appealing to me, obviously. [00:42:01]

THERAPIST: The blissful fantasy that quickly forgets why this happened to begin with, yeah. That's part of my job is to help you stay on-task with that. And we'll do that.

Ramona, I also think-I don't know if you said to him what he said to you, in sort of naming, "Ivan, I want to let you know that I see these changes and they seem," you've said that.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay. Because I think that's huge. That goes a long way. I think, to the degree, that you would say, "You know, next time we have this conversation, it would help me if you, instead of withdrawing, said, 'Ramona, I think I just don't know the answers to your questions,' and told me that with words, if that's what's happening inside you. Tell me that. Because that, I can work with."

You can communicate some of those needs. It's a totally reasonable thing you're asking for and that's actually going to help him grow a repertoire. It sounds like when he starts feeling like, "I don't know, I don't know, I don't know, I'm judging that person," he withdraws. And what he needs help doing is just saying, "I just don't know. Can I get back to you on that one? I'll work on it and get back to you." [00:43:00]

We have to stop. (inaudible at 00:43:03)

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Be in touch...

CLIENT: I will.

THERAPIST: ...as soon as you know, and good luck with your start.

CLIENT: Oh, thanks. [laughs]

THERAPIST: I'll send you a new receipt...

CLIENT: Oh, thank you.

THERAPIST: ...later today. Okay, yeah.

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