TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: So that's today and then the earlier one in October. I got your e-mail also.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: It sounds like you might prefer the 10 am.

CLIENT: So I'm just once we find out that there's a meeting Tuesday nights almost every week for the rest of the year I go to, that means I work 8:30 to 9 on Tuesdays, which means because I can make up those hours as long I can offset those hours as long as it doesn't interfere with meetings that are already scheduled. So there is flexibility and it is a little bit restrictive. So, yes, in terms of travel it would be much easier for me to come here and then go to work instead of go to work for two hours, come here for 45 minutes and go back, because that's two hours on either side. Yes.

THERAPIST: So I think at this point I can do that. I've asked this person if they can switch to 10 o'clock and -

CLIENT: No, I saw that you had sent an e-mail a couple of days before that saying, 'do you want me to '

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: So, I apologize.

THERAPIST: I was just assuming you were still going with that because you'd said lunch at that point 10 am was not at all possible. I know you're learning this on your way too. So the one caveat I have, I think that's probably possible just to switch you back to 10. If you felt like you were going to missing on a regular basis, though. That's the question I have. You said unless there's a meeting scheduled. Are you feeling like that's going to be twice a month or you just don't know yet?

CLIENT: I don't particularly know. I know that that meeting I'm a part of so I can say to some extent, (unclear). That being said, if it works for five of their people I can't do that for a personal matter. So right now I have to check my calendar again and see it's pretty much December I think when I have Monday mornings, but barring that it's not a problem. Also the few weeks I don't have the Tuesday meetings it might not be a huge, huge deal because I always go in at 7 am on Thursdays. So that's an hour and a half and I can probably work in another hour and a half to make sure that that [00:01:53]

THERAPIST: (inaudible).

CLIENT: So I will do as much as I possibly can. I don't have any calendars starting January so I can't predict right now. I assume the Tuesday meetings would continue.

THERAPIST: Okay. I think it's probably just fine to switch it back.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: The only thing, as I say to that as a caveat is that I don't know that I would want to switch it back again.

CLIENT: No, I completely understand and I mean to tell you your first e-mail I needed to say that but basically anything in the morning or the afternoon would work better than a lunch something because unless there's a way to get here that I don't know about it's going to be a solid hour.

THERAPIST: Okay. It sounds like even a 10 o'clock. I had thought you meant like 8:15 that would be a little bit -

CLIENT: It looks like with extra hours, I can.

THERAPIST: That makes sense. Do you need to check on anything? Do you want me to go ahead with that officially or do you want to double check at this point?

CLIENT: Could you let me check what's in my work calendar for Mondays in terms of meetings for the rest of the year at least?

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: And I can get a better idea.

THERAPIST: So I'll wait to hear from you and then we'll proceed from there.

CLIENT: Okay. Thank you.

THERAPIST: So how are you?

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Yeah? How are things with what's on your mind? What's the latest?

(Pause): [00:03:53 00:04:08]

CLIENT: Ivan and I are I'm sorry, is that on?

THERAPIST: Yes, it's on.

CLIENT: Ivan and I are going to see Dr. Farrow (sp?). I think that's been helpful to a great extent. I do I think I've voiced this before and I don't know if it's wrong, if it's critical I do feel like we do spend a lot of our time in our sessions talking about my reaction to these things these things being you know. I hear Ivan, he's hurt because I say, you know, 'I don't want to talk to you, I don't want to see you,' or when these things came out, my response, he's upset about that. I feel like we spend a lot of time talking about my reaction so Ramona doesn't trust Ivan. Ramona criticizes Ivan. That type of a thing. And that's true. And it is a problem. I guess I am biased so I can't see clearly and I don't know if it's accurate but I also just feel like I want to talk about why I don't trust that because I think that was actually a bigger I don't just inherently not trust Ivan. If I did I think that would be the meat of the problem. I don't trust Ivan because Ivan has broken my trust many times in very big ways so I guess in my eyes, which I understand are biased, that sounds like the meat of the problem.

So while I do think it's important to talk about the fact that I don't trust him and that that can be hurtful to him or problematic to us as a couple, I guess I think that could also be addressed if we talked about the bigger elephant which is betrayals. So I feel like that's not necessarily happening. I don't know if that's Ivan kind of unconsciously kind of deflecting like to redirect to something that he doesn't have any control over.

THERAPIST: And last when you and I met it had sounded like the couples therapy wasn't headed in that direction. So maybe it's changed back some because this is where you were feeling it was -

CLIENT: Before.

THERAPIST: Before you guys hadn't decided (unclear due to external noise). So maybe it's just this last session. It was feeling more like Ivan was taking ownership, that he was leading the conversation. So maybe it's just this last session.

THERAPIST: Uh huh.

CLIENT: So maybe it's just this last session. And I don't want to over react but I am kind of -

THERAPIST: I don't know because it could be sessions in a row because we haven't talked necessarily every session, that's why I'm just sort of trying to feel it out.

CLIENT: And I wouldn't, I guess I wouldn't have the complete objectivity to give a good perspective but I definitely felt it this last session became that and the session before maybe was a mix but I notice that it does change the tone of the session so the last session I told Dr. Farrow how Ivan hurt himself after he realized that he physically hurt me and I felt threatened. He went off and physically hurt himself. And there was a different tone to the discussion because I brought it up and I think in those cases simply because Ivan is avoiding, or not necessarily whatever he is or isn't doing he's not bringing it into the space and so it becomes Ramona I don't know that I was viewed as being critical in saying that last week, but I think a lot of times the way the issues themselves get brought into the room, they get brought in by the person who's pursuing, and pursuing and pursuing, it comes across as mean, and critical or judgmental or, instead of if Ivan had said the same thing not at all that tone. So it's hard because I think that's important data.

THERAPIST: I think one of the things that's tricky about it, I mean I can't be there to see exactly what's unfolding. If it's only that, if the only conclusion is that if you bring it up you get accused of being critical, whereas if Ivan brings it up that doesn't happen. If that's all that's happening, the couples therapy is not an effective couples therapy. Right? If that's the only thing that's happening there's something not healthy going on in the treatment. As opposed to the possibility that there may be times when the things you are bringing up may have a particular tone that gets taken up. Remember how I said to you like there were times when you've been frustrated with me or frustrated with this process or asserting something that you know that I'm not quite understanding, that sometimes can feel like just enraged sort of self-critically driven anger and other times it just sounds like totally healthy self-assertion, it really is helpful to me in understanding you better, I wonder if there may be I hope this actually, that there may be a piece of that that is getting taken up. Because if it's not that, it's a big problem it's a bias against you, in other words. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Yes. So I think sometimes that I feel, and I don't know because I'm not objective and I can't be that's not my purpose in couples therapy. But I do feel sometimes is that. So if I say even in the most simplistic example, 'Ivan didn't take out the trash.' I'm criticizing. If Ivan came into the session and said, 'I didn't take out the trash even though that was our agreement.' There is no criticism. He's not the victim. He's identified as the person who did something wrong. So sometimes the way it gets brought in is different. And a couple of sessions ago I did feel like Ivan was really taking ownership and that was huge and the fact that he was scheduling the session was huge because none of this ever happened before. But what happened last session I felt like turned it more into Ivan saying, 'it's hurtful that Ramona doesn't trust me, it's hurtful that she -'

THERAPIST: Could you tell me more about how did it go?

CLIENT: We had been talking about when I found out how he booked this trip which he's on in secret, he said that he felt violated that I saw his phone. He went like pretty far in getting his phone back and like putting his foot in the door so I couldn't close it, knocking it out of my hands, really like it' a mixed message from someone who says -

THERAPIST: Wait knocking what out of your hands?

CLIENT: I had Ivan's phone because he booked the trip. I found out that he booked the trip and he said, 'I want my phone back.' And I said, 'no, I want to know what else is going on' which may or may not be fair. But it may or may not be fair, also, that he's in one moment saying how he and I are working towards transparency. He says I desperately need to be transparent. On the other hand he feels violated if I see his phone. So which is it? But he asked for it repeatedly back. I got worked up. I stood up. I started walking towards the bedroom. He walked after me. I tried to close the bedroom door. I felt very unsafe. I felt like he was aggressively pursuing me to get this phone back and he was not upset Ramona just caught me in another betrayal after everything else. She's got to be really upset.

It was, 'I need my phone back,' in my perception and he put his foot in the door so that I couldn't close the bedroom door. And I felt scared that he would hurt me or do whatever and the door like flung back and hit my arm and the phone fell and he finally left and I closed the door and I just sat and cried. And he didn't at any point come and apologize. He didn't admit any and I didn't understand and eventually I went out and he was just being on the couch and staring at the floor and the next day he told me it was because he was so upset with himself for what he did that he went to the kitchen and took the dull end of the knife and hit himself in the arm and once against the throat and this is not okay.

So we told that to Dr. Farrow but that was I'm upset because this was weeks ago and processing it like a couple of weeks later. Like we started talking about the argument the next session but then it took another couples session before I finally brought into the space, actually Ivan did hurt himself and of course I'm concerned about that. And of course I'm worried about him and like this is not okay but even if it's selfish or horrible or whatever it is, I feel very uncomfortable in a relationship with someone who, if they like do something that hurts me verbally or I'm scared of them that they're going to go hurt themselves. It feels sort of like it did after the assault where if I assert any, 'I'm hurt that you did this,' and he really is in the wrong, instead of him apologizing he becomes a victim somehow and he hurts himself and I'm such a horrible person and it really does take away from any hope, I think, of resolving it in a way that really does acknowledge what he says, and instead I'm so worked up that he's hurting himself we talk about -

THERAPIST: If feels like it moves in the empathy -

CLIENT: Absolutely.

THERAPIST: And the original reason, the original (unclear) gets a little forgotten then. [00:14:02]

CLIENT: Yes, and I don't know whether that's the conscious on his part, if it's intentional, if he realizes that after a certain amount of time there doesn't need to be accountability if there's a lot of sympathy. And it's very frustrating because of course I'm very concerned if he's having those thoughts of hurting himself. Of course I am. But I also got to realize, wait a minute, how did I end up so quickly sympathizing and taking care of him when just yesterday he's doing this? Like hiding a trip, knocking the phone out of my hands, saying that I'm violating how did we go from that to that? And it does make me wonder if it's unconscious, if it's intentional, but whatever it is, it's not okay for me and -

THERAPIST: So in the couples session if felt then like it turned towards criticizing you?

CLIENT: Not necessarily this time. I've felt that way in a number of sessions but this time it felt like because I brought it in, we ended up talking a lot about Ivan's saying that he feels hurt when I say, like, in reference to the assault and stuff, when I said it was disgusting or there was a time when I said, 'I don't want to see you anymore.' Like, 'I don't want to see you again,' and how hurtful that is to him. And I'm sure it is and it doesn't make it okay for me to say those things as much as I think there might not be a person out there who in a moment of those things happening would say, 'I'm really hurt by what you did. That wasn't okay. But I really love you and I want to look at the bigger picture and let's go to couples counseling, call me.' As much as that might be the right thing to do, I don't think that's fair. So I guess what I'm trying to say is I don't think it is okay for me to have, at the time, said, 'I don't want to see you ever again. I'm so angry with what you did. Like, you're so disgusting.' I'm not saying it's okay just to say those things but I guess I'm also saying in the context it wasn't verbally bashing him because, you know -?

THERAPIST: Yeah, it makes me kind of wonder what would happen if you just took simple, plain accountability for that, like in some ways it diffuses it. Like of course it's not ideal to have said it I' don't ever want to see you again.

CLIENT: No, and it's not okay to say that to your spouse and I know that, but in the context -

THERAPIST: But that doesn't make you all bad either. It's a mistake and when people are really upset about something they say things they don't entirely mean. So you could say, 'yeah, you're right, I wish I hadn't said that. It was in the heat of the moment.' I don't think that changes, I can (unclear) that, and it doesn't sort of change what happened either.

CLIENT: No. My fear is, or what I guess I felt, but again maybe it was just my feeling but what I was thinking was happening in the session or what I felt was happening was that it became equal almost. Like, 'I assaulted Ramona, and Ramona said she never wanted to see me again and that I was disgusting. I'm so hurt by what she said.'

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I'm sure what I said was hurtful but, I'm sorry, but quite frankly what do you expect? I didn't say that I didn't say, 'I never want to see you again because he didn't make dinner when he said he would.' Like it was huge, serious still is huge and serious and although it's wrong in that sense it's equal, but it's not like I don't feel comfortable equating that in couples therapy.

THERAPIST: So here's one of the things I wonder about you do you I don't know how to describe this. Like to me it's very, very obvious that those are not equal. Those are not equal things.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: But that also doesn't mean that if you apologize for your smaller part, like your 5% relative to the 95%, if you'd say, 'yeah, that's true, I was really impulsive and I'm sorry if that hurt your feelings' that that undoes the 95%. It does not make it equal just because you say that. Are you afraid it does for Ivan or for Dr. Farrow?

CLIENT: Yes. I'm afraid that -

THERAPIST: Inside yourself?

CLIENT: Maybe. I don't want anyone to misinterpret and I also really, really, really and maybe I guess I want to be told that this is off base, but I really don't think it's the problem. I think it is a problem to say to your spouse, even that. Even if they cheated on you like whatever they did, it's still like -it's not great to say that.

THERAPIST: I couldn't agree with you more.

CLIENT: But it's not the problem.

THERAPIST: It isn't the problem.

CLIENT: It also wouldn't have happened without the problem. I'm not doing -

THERAPIST: Totally agree. I totally agree.

CLIENT: That's all I want to be like, I just want Dr. Farrow and Ivan I guess I would like to know that they're on the same page because I just I feel very strongly about that. I do think it's a problem that I don't trust Ivan. But I also don't think I wouldn't trust -

THERAPIST: Oh I don't even think it's a problem that you don't trust Ivan.

CLIENT: Well, in our marriage it's not okay -

THERAPIST: Of course, in your marriage you've got to work on that. But I don't think you're doing something wrong maybe to work on you should be trusting more. You shouldn't be trusting him, actually.

CLIENT: He's not trustworthy. But that's what I'm saying. I don't want to spend the session talking about I don't trust Ivan and that's really hurtful to Ivan. I want to talk about Ivan hasn't been trustworthy and that's hurtful to Ramona and so she doesn't trust him.

THERAPIST: So here's what I'm trying to get at. See if I can try to explain this. I think we are in complete agreement. Your reaction is not the problem. It's not the heart of the matter. It's not the big deal stuff of why you are there and what you guys have got to work on right now. I think that if you trusted that more in yourself, just know, even if I take (unclear) of my small piece that doesn't undo that, it doesn't mean that this is the heart of the matter and just were able to be there. I'm sorry, it's done with. I know we don't know that. Maybe Dr. Farrow and Ivan would then pounce all over it. 'See Ramona, it's all your fault.' But I wonder if there's something that you convey in that it has to be 100% black and white and if you have any single little speck of blackness then it's somehow going to take away that Ivan's responsible. I don't think it does. It just doesn't. That's part of you being a whole person. Yeah, you had a reaction that, maybe, if you were going to do it again you'd say something a little bit different. You're sorry for that. That does not have to undo all of this and if it does for Dr. Farrow or Ivan, we'll talk about that. You have me inside you sitting on your shoulder saying, 'that actually doesn't undo it. They're separate things.'

CLIENT: The thing is I do regret a lot of what I said to him but part of me thinks it never would have been okay for him to do what he did and for me to just say like, 'that really hurts my feelings. I still love you. I have nothing angry to say.' I guess -

THERAPIST: Here, actually, here's might have been if we were scripting and you were in the healthiest place possible you might have said, 'I am furious. I have so much bad feeling and mistrusting feeling right now that I need a break. I don't even know what to think. I don't trust you. I am so disappointed. I'm really upset. I'm really angry. I need some space right now to think through where I find myself in this.' Do you see how that's filled with feeling? It's communicating feeling. It's different than, 'I never want to see you again.'

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: That's all.

CLIENT: And I do know it's wrong to say that but I also, I guess, I'm not -

THERAPIST: It's minor. My point is, I think that if you like could say, 'yeah, I wish I didn't say that.' Then that issue's done. The (unclear) is taken. It's gone. It clears the way for now. Now it's Ivan's turn to take accountability. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: I do.

THERAPIST: It doesn't make you a bad person. It doesn't make you responsible for what happened.

CLIENT: No. And I don't feel that way.

THERAPIST: At all.

CLIENT: I guess I just feel kind of bad because part of me does like at the time I said it, I really kind of meant it. Or at least I wanted to hurt him just a tiny, tiny amount of how he hurt me because it was just, and I guess, I feel bad for it but I also can't imagine another woman not saying something along those lines.

THERAPIST: People say all sorts of different, different things. I wouldn't even compare. It's not I don't think it makes it any better or worse if someone would or wouldn't have said that. What you've just said, to me, is huge for your couples work. I don't even know if you know what you just said. But you said something that's a little bit different than what I was saying. Let's say you wanted to hurt him.

CLIENT: A part of me at the time absolutely wanted to.

THERAPIST: How understandable would that be? You could own that and say, 'you're right, Ivan, I could see how that hurt you. I might even have felt so angry that I wanted to hurt you. That probably was my unconscious intention.'

[0:23:32]

CLIENT: No, absolutely, and not even completely unconscious and so much the point of, 'you hurt me so much, I will put up this boundary I don't ever want to see you again because it's inconceivable to be around, to allow sometimes it feels to me and with my parents too, it feels like if I put up the boundary first I don't get abandoned, I don't get hurt again, I don't get betrayed again. So if I know my mom's going to hang up on me if I say got to go to the store, I don't get hung up on it and I don't hang up in tears and call her back and she won't answer. That doesn't happen to me. And with Ivan, right now, it feels so, so mixed and I'm so and there's something I really, really want to ask you about because for weeks Ivan has been picking me up from the subway after I get home from work, he has cooked dinner, he has been taking out the trash and doing the laundry and I never asked him to do either in weeks. Like never asked him. He's consistently doing it. Which is mind-boggling.

I mean it's wonderful but it's confusing. It was like a switch, almost. He asks about my day. It's very confusing and it's gotten to the point where I get home at six. Around nine I start getting ready I go to sleep between then and 10 usually because I get up early and he's still around and there have been times when I've said, 'just sleep on the couch, you have to work at 4:30.' I take the car. It's really cold. Don't ride your bike the few miles. And it's gotten to the point where we've been doing that so often that actually the nights when he's like I have to work the evening shifts, but I could stop by at nine when I get off like, I miss it, and I miss him, and I miss dinner and he expresses like, 'oh I wish I was there. I wish like, the one day he's like, 'oh I didn't get to cook dinner for tonight because you'll be home alone but I grabbed a couple of things at the store that will be there.' So it's really weird because we're still separated and he still has another apartment but he's been over so often and things have been going in such a different direction, it feels so separate from the other stuff that I started like, 'what are we doing? Where are we going? What are the goals here? Because if you're basically living here every evening it doesn't make sense to have another apartment but also like would it make sense for you to live here to do more of that or to see how that feels even if it meant not sleeping in the same bed yet?'

THERAPIST: Would you do more of that?

CLIENT: What do you mean? Like more of the, I mean we're having dinner together pretty consistently but more of that type of stuff like being around more.

THERAPIST: Yeah. We were even going to keep track of whether it continued or stopped but it sounds like it's -

CLIENT: It has continued.

THERAPIST: Two weeks later it's still happening.

CLIENT: It has been still happening, but it is confusing because he's not talking about moving back in and when I broached that, 'so like what's happening here?' he just says, I don't want to push, I don't want to so it's weird because I just want to be careful that it's not convenient or, of course, things are going to go well as long as we're just eating dinner and talking about our days and watching TV and hanging out for like three hours a day.

THERAPIST: Although the data includes him doing I mean, he's a participant in the household.

CLIENT: Yeah, no. He's been and it's almost gotten to the point where we need to figure up how to split up these bills or how to because you're going to the store for both of us, or, it's really and so it's awkward. But I was so Dr. Brixton, I asked her how to do the whole taken everything, and she you need to have regular scheduled discussions at home and preserve that space just for it. Which I like the idea of, because it is nice to have dinner together and just talk about our days, enjoy it and not pretend like nothing's going on but for that moment, to not talk about it.

THERAPIST: Yes. It's really important. To not have it all revolve around the past. Absolutely.

CLIENT: I like it and it feels like it feeds a little bank so that I can have that negative discussion about the negative thing, but then so he scheduled some but he kind of scheduled some for when he wasn't at home. So we've only had one so that's like -

THERAPIST: So how did the one go?

CLIENT: It went okay. It was supposed to be about he came up with the topics the proposed topics. And this one he wanted to talk about goals because I kept saying, what's happening here? And it went okay. It was like a lot and there was nothing concrete. But it was good overall.

THERAPIST: So scheduling some more of those and they're actually doable. It can make some sense of some scripts at times. I'm sure he's terribly, terribly anxious to have that kind of conversation. It doesn't excuse it but it's a tough conversation. It does sound, and I think it's a great idea, making sure that it happens in a more regular way and that there's also a lot of other times protected from being about that, will continue to give you more information. I understand him not pushing it and it seems appropriate of him as the ball's more in your court. But maybe that's also hard for you like how do you trust yourself like how do you trust yourself that you're doing the right thing. [00:29:21]

Ramona, do you have a sense about what you want to do? Where are you?

CLIENT: It's confusing because there's so much positive stuff. He's been away this past week. And there's been some negative stuff and when you said the other week, that even if Ivan's working really hard on this, I need to understand that there still will be times when he still doesn't tell me about something and it depends on what it is whether to be mindful of it. And it's one thing to be mindful of it but it's another thing to be mindful of it if that makes sense. So I looked through his phone the other day, and this is before he left, and there was a porn site and I asked him about it and he said, and it was like at 6 in the morning and he was at work and he's like, 'I loan out my phone to co-workers, I promise you I was not on that site.' And I said, I don't know that sounds fishy. If he had never said anything before I absolutely would have believed him, but given everything I'm like, 'do you really think a co-worker would do that on your phone?' It's odd, so I don't know and that scares me. I can only hope that that's true. He says he knows who was working with him and he's asking the guy about it but he hasn't gotten back to him to talk to him and so I don't know. And Friday he talked to me after work, he said, 'I'll call you when you get off work and he did. He called me right when I got off and that was nice. Because he's at his parents and he's like, 'we're having lots of conversations. They're really difficult but I'm really having them with my parents and this trip is so different. And I thought well that's great and we had such a great conversation and I felt so much better and then that evening I get on Facebook and see his parents posting pictures of them at the zoo and I'm like, wait a minute. How are you talking about your depression and suicidality and how is all this coming up so seriously and yet you're at the zoo with your sister and the exchange student they took in and I just don't see it at all. It's not quite the same story.

THERAPIST: So that I would believe a little bit more than the porn one. Just as with the two of you the two of you could be working on something for an hour and then take a break to do something fun together that actually would be really healthy, entertaining. If he were talking to his family I would not want him to be talking about it all weekend so that he couldn't go to the zoo. You actually would want him to [00:32:15]

CLIENT: No. And I'm not upset.

THERAPIST: (Cross talk) something fun.

CLIENT: I'm not like horrified that they went to the zoo for an hour. I'm not its more, I felt misled.

THERAPIST: It doesn't have to be a sign. Maybe if he'd said, 'yeah, we had this long talk and then we went to the zoo.' If he told you -

CLIENT: Exactly. Exactly.

THERAPIST: (Cross talk) of something like that.

CLIENT: Exactly, yes. So if you're hiding that, were you hiding that because you wanted me to think you were talking instead. And he was like, 'I was going to tell you tomorrow. I didn't want you to think that we weren't talking about it but we really did talk before and we really did talk some while we were there and we weren't there very long and I' and it's not, it's like I just at this point, anything that's hidden is like and purposefully.

THERAPIST: So this is a really great example of what probably happens between the two of you microscopically all the time. He's afraid of telling you he went to the zoo because he thinks you're going to think it means that he didn't have a serious conversation. But in fact, had he told you we went to the zoo you'd trust even more that the serious conversation happened.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: I actually think because then it's all transparent.

CLIENT: But I told him this. And I said, 'Ivan, even the really horrible things, unlike the zoo, it would have gone very differently had you come clean, had you like, even the worst case would be made better.

THERAPIST: So one of the things you're having to deal with as you're making your own decision about where you want him, when you want him back in your own life, if you want him back in your life is, what to do if this is in his character. Right? And he's made a lot of headway on it. It's huge, the things he's doing and saying more. But we cannot expect he's a different person so that when push comes to shove, even around stupid things like I went to the zoo. It's not pornography, but there's still a history where what he does, he doesn't believe yet in his mind, 'I will get in less trouble if I tell her about the zoo than if I don't.' He doesn't believe that in certain ways. He believes, if I keep this secret, it will be better. So that's a process of continuing to say, 'you need to understand, I will be much happier if you tell me, than if I find out about anything.' And you're building trust back up. He's building, trying to trust in that. He doesn't trust that yet. He doesn't trust that it would be better to know than not to know.

CLIENT: And that doesn't make sense to me because I don't think I could be more clear at this point no secrets. I don't think it could be more clear about how much that's destroyed. So it's bizarre to me that he's still doing that.

THERAPIST: It's kind of like saying, you know, it's bizarre that a person still has depression even though it's bad for them. Do you know what I mean? It takes time to work it through. People can get a direction, can get that it's destructive for me to think this way about myself or the world, but you do. So he probably gets it rationally even in the couples session, but in the heat of the moment he loses sight of that. It's like an addict who knows I don't ever want to drink again or I'll never use drugs again but then in the heat of the moment he feels that that's the right thing to do, right? So he's working on that. And you're trying to decide, how much progress has he made? How much am I willing to tolerate little kind of blips on the radar screen that are small slips? Are they big ones? Are they small ones? What's your tolerance level for the process of him working on all that stuff? The doing the daily stuff actually is something that's easier than confronting the hard part.

CLIENT: That's the point. Because if Ivan and I can to that really well, that's great. But there's obviously a lot more to a marriage than that. And I do worry I guess I would need to know that we could do the difficult conversations consistently and that he could talk to me about things. The thing is, I would understand that he would still slip up and I understand that this is something that he is working on that will take time but the thing that scares me is that it almost feels like he controls the relationship in a way. She doesn't know this, so she doesn't react, so I'm not in trouble. He controls the information and that's not okay with me. So even though the fact that he went to the zoo is not really a problem, the problem is like it scares me that on any level, be it porn, the zoo, grad school, that he can manipulate my actions by what I know.

THERAPIST: And he can edit things out to get some reactions. It's not okay.

CLIENT: It feels like it takes away my freedom to make decisions. So I don't know. I guess I'm I don't want to be a fool. But I guess I hope that the porn site it was a Tumblr site, was something that someone else looked up. That sounds like such a little thing but at some point it's the straw that breaks the camel's back almost. We've been in couples counseling a long time.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And you sound like you feel like you've spent enough time going over and over this point of, 'you just need to tell me.'

CLIENT: Yeah. And he's even expressed in couples counseling he's keeping a written diary of it because Dr. Bourd (sp?) part of the deal was Dr. Farrow, he asked Dr. Farrow for homework, she said start finding a way to communicate with Ramona why these things happened and Dr. Bourd's response to that was, 'it's going to take time for you to be able to communicate it. Start writing about it.' But then when I say, 'I want to read what you're writing, I want to talk about it, he's like 'I don't want you to read it.'

THERAPIST: That's a place where, if I'm giving you feedback, I would give him a little more leeway. That's a private conversation in a way with his therapist that in some ways I don't know how to describe this feels like a little infantilizing of him to say, 'I want to read your homework.' Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: I kind of do and at the same time it kind of scares me that I don't know what he's writing. And at this point, him having any secrets clearly would not be okay. Because in a healthy relationship there are things that you could keep a diary and your spouse doesn't need to read it, presumably because the important things they're aware of. But in this situation I don't feel like it's that way and Ivan said I don't want you to read it and at one point he said, 'it's a lot of suicidality and I said, 'if that is the case maybe I don't need to read every word. I understand how that feels but I need to know not looking to punish him or embarrass him, but I actually do need to know if that's part of -'

THERAPIST: It's important. So again, we can't change Ivan.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: The only tiny piece that I think will continue to help you you gather the data you need is if you say, 'I need to read that,' versus saying, 'will you share it with me?' And then what he says is, 'no.' then, 'how come?' And having a conversation about it feels more like being you'll get to see you ask him, 'will he?' and then he and then he says yes or no, instead of demanding it. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Um hmm [yes].

THERAPIST: Then he could even placate you and give it to you after you demand but you know actually a little bit less than you'd know if he'd said 'okay, sure, read it.'

CLIENT: And I do understand even the willingness versus the just giving in.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Ivan could create another diary, get a new e-mail. That's clearly not a long term solution and I haven't demanded it but I have said that I think there shouldn't be anything that I can't see, like absolutely could not see because that doesn't feel comfortable at this point. Or at least that you wouldn't know the essence of.

THERAPIST: Exactly. I don't need to know every word but if he's writing about, I really am looking for another woman, I need to know that. If he's writing, I really want to hurt myself. I need to know that.

CLIENT: Yeah. So my ultimate, I guess I was thinking that it's been weeks that he's been making these consistent efforts. I mean some of it does hinge on what happened on with website, as bizarre as that sounds it is a big deal to me. I had been thinking maybe the end of this month would be three months since we'd been living separately. If he's coming over and sleeping on the couch seven nights a week, maybe it would be time at the end of the month, the beginning of next month to begin thinking about moving back in. He took so little with him anyway he really said that he didn't want to he wanted to and it's scary and I wouldn't want to look at that as a permanent 'we're back together and everything's fine.'

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But I want to see if the progress continued. Right now I guess I want to make sure he's not like working towards it and once he was there it didn't matter anymore.

THERAPIST: You could ask him that. Does that come up at all?

CLIENT: I've said it I've said that I wouldn't want his efforts to be like trying to get me back but of course he says like -

THERAPIST: That's not the -

CLIENT: But I don't know if I trust that. I just want to be really, really cautious.

THERAPIST: Again, I think you're having to make a decision knowing right now what the data is and there are a lot of improvements and there are still a lot of things that make it hard to trust every single thing he says. I think you are setting yourself up for failure if you expect that once he moves back in that that will stop happening.

CLIENT: No. And I guess that's my point. I can handle, I wouldn't like it, but I can handle the stuff like the zoo. If it's stuff like the website and that really was him and he really is going to find a way to do that, I don't think I would be interested. I just really want to honor all the hard work he's doing and recognize it and give it a chance because clearly things have gone really well when he's done that. But I also want to have some space to say that there's really a lot of water under the bridge and the fact that he's addressing that takes time and I get it, but I also don't want to keep going-g through that for years and not get to where I thought we were until we're 30. I just don't want to live like that.

THERAPIST: The way you just said, 'I don't want to live like that,' I think is so key to your continuing communication. There's a difference between want, need and demand and I think to the degree that what comes out is demand he won't hear you. When you say even around trust to say it's a version of want and halfway between want and need, for me to feel safe in this relationship it's really important that I know that you're being transparent. That is your best chance of being heard. I think when you scoot into demand that in the space of demand he pulls away and feels terrified of being criticized. Overall, Ramona, it's a dilemma. If I'm a betting person, he's the one who's on the porn site. It's highly unlikely a colleague has taken his phone and is doing that. I also don't think, to me, that that means it's as bad as what happened before. It could be as simple as a quick impulse and he stops, right? It doesn't have to be a long term engagement with it. It could be an accidently click on it. Who knows? It's worse than the zoo but it isn't as loud as the to me even the worst example of all, in a way, is him on going to a web school. That is the longest term massive betrayal that started your marriage and I think there are signs it's been getting better, and better and better in ways. But there's still a lot of work to be done. And that's why this is a tricky question that there's no, how do you come up with an answer of do I want him back in or not when the data is that things are a lot better but there are still a lot to work on. What do you? You're the one to answer, what do I do with that? Is it enough yet? Someone else might feel like it isn't. Someone else might feel like it isn't. Someone else might feel like it's okay. This is enough to try to get more data together. But it sounds like at least approaching it as if you were going to be moving back in that's the question I have: do you see moving back in as more of a kind of 'we've decided to be back together,' or, as a next step to see what happens?

CLIENT: I would definitely see it as a next step but if I didn't see it as potentially moving towards okay, living apart is off the table, or more progress I guess if I didn't see that then there would be no point in taking that next step. I just want to be very cautious and make sure that I'm doing the right thing but also for the right reasons. I don't want to be overwhelmed with sympathy and taking care of him, that I take him back because I feel bad about him sleeping on an air mattress in this strange man's house. That does bother me.

THERAPIST: But I don't hear you only just wanting to roll over and pretend that nothing happened.

CLIENT: I guess I just don't fully trust myself in making the right I want to know that I'm doing it for the right reasons and not for the wrong ones. And also if I say this was good enough I'd be lying. I could only say it's good enough for now and I could give him more time but there is no way this could ever be good enough long term. I could never accept like it would need to change.

THERAPIST: It would need to keep improving.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: So if there's any answer for me like in terms of reality checking you, I don't I think you're in a place in the relationship where you're being very reasonable in saying, 'I need a little more time.' I think you're also in a place where it would be reasonable to say, 'okay, we've had three months. Things have actually it's not that they haven't improved they've improved dramatically in a number of different areas. Taking that in it also would be reasonable for you to day, 'okay, let's try the next step.' The part that would not be reasonable is taking the next step assuming that it would never happen again. So that's where you're setting yourself up and as long as you're not doing that I think saying I need a little more time, I think saying, let's try it a little bit closer, both seem reasonable, but that your expectation is that these things will continue to improve. Or that when they happen that you find language and space to talk about them immediately with each other and have even sometimes what might be improved is that you could have a dialogue about it when it happens that's different than what you would ever be able to have happen before. That in and of itself is an improvement, right? It's not that couples for the rest of their lives everything goes smoothly. People hit up against bumps in the road or disappointments in each other all the time as part of normal, healthy marriage but that part of what you want to get better at is talking about it when it happens and talking it through so that you both feel better about the situation afterwards. So that's another piece of what you're trying to see when you this. Let's stop.

CLIENT: So we'll -

THERAPIST: I will wait to hear from you and we'll take it from there.

CLIENT: Okay,

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