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THERAPIST: I haven't heard anything from the insurance.

CLIENT: I haven't gotten anything from them either, so.

THERAPIST: (inaudible).

CLIENT: I guess okay.

THERAPIST: We stopped there.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What? You're smiling.

CLIENT: I guess I don't know exactly I guess overall I'm anxious sometimes, symptomatically, but -

THERAPIST: Symptomatically, overt symptoms, you're saying are okay.

CLIENT: I think they're okay. I'm more aware of how I deal with it than I had been many months ago. So I did sort of catch myself this weekend but I actually really needed to organize like a lot of things in my file folder box whenever I needed to sort things. But that was actually something that actually needed to happen so we're going to do for the thing for the sake of relieving some anxiety. And I actually feel pretty good because I haven't done that type of thing, like I haven't reorganized half the apartment or anything like that in a long time so I think I've maybe that's good.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I started thinking about it getting organized and trying to get things under hyper-control is debilitating your life that's when it becomes problematic. Or debilitating to your relationship or something like that. But if it's not, it's not a problem, right?

CLIENT: It could be simply getting organized about something.

THERAPIST: Or a minor defense that actually having adaptive (unclear) to get some things done.

CLIENT: I will say sometimes I am, I do notice there are certain things I do that I think are a bit obsessive compulsive and that that's like an underlying it's not debilitating to me or to any of my relationships that I know of, but I guess I am aware that sometimes my anxiety coping with it takes some forms of that. So there's that and lately I have confronted myself with avoiding.

THERAPIST: Confronted yourself with avoiding?

CLIENT: Yes. So you asked me to journal this week.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: I didn't journal this week. And there were days when I thought about it and well, most of the days I thought about it but it was usually, 'oh I really need to get this done,' or, 'I worked 7 to 5 and I'm tired,' or like, which had some and then I thought, 'maybe I don't really need to be so hard on myself if I was really productive at work or I got a lot of things settled. I got all my insurance settled for 2014, I started working with my loan repayment. I did a lot of big things that are stressful. And did have two conversations with Ivan. Dr. Farrow is having us do these like scheduled but I did find myself not wanting to have them, not wanting to do the journaling, even like just not wanting to deal with it.

THERAPIST: So there may be something along the line of whenthings are going okay, almost like why look under the rug?

CLIENT: It's things we actually had a scheduled conversation that was supposed to be about an actual thing one of the things. And I explained to him that I was aware that I was doing this, which is difficult because I could confront him with doing this and I'm usually the one who wants to confront, pursue and resolve and have everything very much on the up and up. But I told him it's kind of difficult for me because I've been very unhappy in the relationship for a significant amount of time over significant things not little things. And so the past couple of months or so when we've had all this positive time, even in chunks and even in pretty normal activities nothing like extravagant, dinners and conversations about our day. There was a time when he surprised me and got pumpkins like close to Thanksgiving for us to carve. There was a day this past week when I came home and there were roses like in a vase on the dining table. Just so nice and just having a really positive time with Ivan and really looking forward to seeing him at the end of the day.

It's been I think I looked forward to it for so long, or I've wanted it or missed it for so long that now that I have it part of me, an irrational part of me kind of wants to just, as long as the things that happened aren't happening anymore, wants to say it doesn't matter or I don't want to revisit it or I don't need to formally resolve it because it's not going to happen again because it's water under the bridge. And I know that's not true. And I know the goal of me doing work in here is to actually deal with it and then move on. But I'm aware that part of me actually has that fantasy essentially, being so desperate for something so good that I'm willing to look the other way and I know that that ultimately isn't good. But it's just (unclear). [00:06:29]

THERAPIST: You know, Ramona, it reminds me of (inaudible). But just thinking about things you told me about kind of scenarios where your mother would identify or something would happen where she'd go in her room and shut the door and not talk to you for a very long time and you're left outside feeling so desperate to get her to speak to you, desperate for her to come out, desperate for something to happen. (inaudible) I was sharing with Dr. Farrow because I was trying to help, just hardwired for understanding about the quality of what's inside you, I think, like the feelings of pursuing Ivan and has some of that old stuff in it for you; what you must have felt towards your mother when you were truly abandoned by her withdrawal in a way that was very, very traumatizing for you. It is not okay for parents to just shut kids out and ignoring you for as long as (unclear). And I think it left you in a kind of frantic place, trying to scramble to get her back. I think that's a little bit of how it plays out with Ivan, too. (inaudible). [00:06:59]

So I'm saying this (unclear) because one of the things I also do know is that you never talked to me about what happened afterwards is that if you're in that kind of, as a child, or even as an adult with that child, it can really trigger that anxiety for someone to not leave you, come here, talk to me, don't go in your room don't shut me out is that once the door is opened in that state and she's back he' back I could imagine the relief, 'thank God the door's open.' Just feeling such a relief of the frantic anxiety that, of course, in a way you'd want to just keep that around for good so that she never goes in her room again. Do you know what I mean? And so the urge to say, 'okay, I don't even need to know why you went in the room and shut me out to begin with. I'm just so happy you're back,' makes a lot of sense to a child. Do you know what I mean? You must have been so relieved when she came back to you. And I think that makes sense then with Ivan. It's sort of like a piece of 'I just want this back.' You don't want to have to go back, like when he's back in the room with the door shut. That feels awful. And what I don't think you know from your relationship with your mother in this context is how do you get through conflicts and (unclear) even with your child? Will the door be open so that you're talking about it? You're directing it? You're having a conversation about it? But it doesn't mean that someone has to go away whenever things get brought up with him. (inaudible)? I don't know if you remember what would happen (unclear) when your mother [00:08:16]

CLIENT: Oh I know.

THERAPIST: You do.

CLIENT: Because it still happens just over the phone. I mean she'll hang up and I won't hear from her for days and then I'll try to call her back and she won't answer. I mean it's ridiculous it's kind of ridiculous but it feels abandoning even though I'm 25 and do not need my mother to survive. I do not need her in that sense at all, obviously. But it's emotionally really difficult and eventually what would happen at home, then eventually she would be like upset still but I'd apologize and in a couple of days it would be more okay.

THERAPIST: You'd apologize.

CLIENT: Yes. And that's not to say that when we did have the argument that it wasn't I didn't say things that I needed to apologize for, but I guess it's hard because I'm clearly not objective and clearly my memory of it is my memory and not the ultimate truth but I guess I do feel like when she would go in her bedroom and shut the door and lock the door or when my dad would storm out and drive away to calls, that they didn't ever say, 'sorry I walked out.' 'Sorry I shut the door.' 'Sorry I left you crying to deal with it on your own.' Or even acknowledge that even if I was put into that role, I wasn't an adult on their equal level where I had the same not that adults should do that to each other -

THERAPIST: Yes, that's true. But you shouldn't do that period because I was thinking I don't think you could keep a friend around who hung up and didn't call you for days.

CLIENT: It's a bit extreme.

THERAPIST: That's not a nice person.

CLIENT: It's a bit extreme especially to happen over something that isn't huge, if that makes any sense.

THERAPIST: It's never warranted, actually, even if you hit and kicked her. It's not warranted to shut you out for that long. Do you know what I mean? The only thing might be, 'okay, I need to go in the other room for a minute to take a deep breath because I'm going to say something that I'll regret,' or something like that where she's just sort of removing herself to get her bearings and then come back and address it with you. Do you know what I mean? Even if you've done something really outrageously wrong kids do that, right? That's actually being a child and part of how kids learn to be adults over time in the world is not to handle it that way.

CLIENT: I think at least it also feels like a repetition is because in my mind most of the fights I had with my parents were along the lines of bringing up topics that were really unwelcome like, 'can you help with the house?' 'Dad, can you please you promised to do this in the yard and I cannot do it. Can you please come over?' And clearly, I mean they didn't always take on the polite voice of 'could you please?' There was a lot of anger but that would result in a fight, not in a and so it does feel like that with Ivan or it did feel like that with Ivan where that would be literally like so similar like, 'Ivan could you please do the laundry?' Over and over and over, argument after argument still not doing it. And it's like what do you do? You do it yourself and you resent it and you're hurt and it does not feel loving and it does not feel like a partnership with Ivan and it did not feel like a secure one with my parents.

THERAPIST: This is the side of things that actually is human between two people, instead of just being, oh we have to talk about this,' he actually, unlike your parents, is doing it doing the very things he didn't do for a very long time.

CLIENT: He is mostly but I don't want to be overly, I don't want to put everything under a microscope, but over the weekend I realized the laundry is starting to pile up. What if this is going back to the way it was? Ivan hasn't scheduled it was at a certain point a day or two after Ivan hasn't scheduled any conversations. Oh, my gosh. What if Dr. Farrow is right? What if it's the same pattern? I cannot do it anymore? And with Ivan my parents, it was always my mom going back to her bedroom, shutting the door, locking the door, not picking up the phone, not talking for a couple of days or so. With my dad it was, 'I've got to go to work.' Out the door, slam the door. Drive away. And with Ivan it's sitting on the couch, staring at the floor and making himself small or it's refusing to speak, refusing to engage. It's such a trigger for me and it's so difficult. It feels horrible. It feels absolutely horrible for me to see myself as someone who is just like, I don't know. And for me there's so much pain and the people around me, at least most people in my life have been able to I don't know. [00:16:05]

I don't need Ivan to survive. I don't need my parents. It's not as though it's not like that anymore. It feels emotionally like, I don't know it feels like that.

THERAPIST: (Unclear) of course you know intellectually what you need to survive, but you did as a kid. So when these hot buttons get pressed we should just you're not alone in what happens as you get back to the feelings that this is kind of a life or death withdrawal. Do you know what I mean? And I think the more we kind of get to know that feeling, the more you'll slowly find that the emotional part of it that doesn't mean that it's okay, it doesn't mean you're (inaudible) upset by the behavior (inaudible) but it might change your orientation to how you relate to it and how you problem solve around it. This is what I'm try to say. The balance is that Ivan is actually doing that. You're not making that up. This is not your transference you're projecting onto him because of your history. He's actually doing something that's a total repetition of your history. The part of that that is yours is that because it is an exact repetition of your history it hits the hottest button inside you so that your responsiveness to it is pulling you back into a kind of childlikeness. This happens in all (inaudible), right? So the more we keep working on those feelings, I think the more you find okay of what's leading to what he's doing it doesn't have to hit so much of a hot button where your life is on the line the way it actually was as a child. [00:17:46]

CLIENT: I would like that. I guess I would also it's hard because I know it's, I know it's I mean we've talked about this in couples therapy when I present a topic or any type of topic that comes up that is difficult for Ivan, it's his tendency to withdraw into himself, it's my tendency to pursue and I notice in those situations that I sometimes even find myself just saying more things because no one's talking, no one's talking and it's just me and I find, like I wouldn't need to like the conversation would last five minutes if Ivan would talk with me, but it lasts an hour because I spend most of it trying to get him to talk to me and I get so worked up that he won't talk to me and it seems to someone outside it might seem silly, like would that work out because he doesn't seem to want to talk right now? But it feels like being shut out. It feels just as unbearable as having the door slammed and knowing how upset I am I can't get it to open. It feels horrific.

THERAPIST: So Ramona, here's what I wonder. If you can bring yourself to a session, you bring something up, Ivan does what Ivan does retreats, looks down at the floor, stops talking. What do you feel when he does that? What's starting to happen inside?

CLIENT: I get panicky. Literally, inside, I get worked up. I start getting more upset about the actual topic because it's no longer just about the topic. It's like, 'you did this and you're going to refuse to talk to me about it. Not only are you not apologizing, you're ignoring me which is doubly hurtful. It feels unbearable.' And Dr. Farrow's advice has been well, Dr. Bourd (sp?) has told Ivan to come up with literally like a tool, where when you're having a conversation and Ramona keeps wanting to talk and you find yourself, to Ivan he says, you find yourself not speaking but withdrawing, you take a 20 minute break but verbalize that you will come back after 20 minutes and you're not just -

THERAPIST: To kind of say I need a little break and will come back in 20 minutes. Say that out loud.

CLIENT: Right. Right. And then come back to it and it could be different, more productive. We haven't had a lot of luck with that yet.

THERAPIST: Has he tried it?

CLIENT: There was I was frustrated. Like last week's homework assignment to the conversations so we did one and we got to 40 minutes. We were supposed to go for 40 minutes and I said okay, I think our time is up and Ivan wanted to keep going and I got upset about something we were talking about and it was something that had already happened. It's not like I was upset at him in the moment, I was upset about one of the elephants in the room and at which point Ivan then said I think our time is up. And I'm like -wait a minute that's not fair. So it did not work in that. Ivan says he thinks he said 'let's take a break and come back to it.' I heard him say, 'time is up' and that feels different. And Dr. Farrow said, 'well, Ramona I think you dissociate sometimes and you don't hear things when you're upset' which may or may not be true or Ivan might not have said everything he was thinking but I will say that when those things happen sometimes, maybe it was my parents no definitely it was my parents but also with Ivan to some extent I definitely get to a point where I know that I'm doing it and I know it's wrong, but I'll say to him like, 'then just go, like just go for a walk, please leave, please, please.' Because I sense that I'm being ditched. I'm being abandoned. I'm going to have the door shut or the phone hung up or the like, I just can't bear it and as much as it's like not at all what I want for him to leave, it's actually the exact opposite of what I want I push for it to happen. And Ivan frequently just he's like, 'okay.' And he puts on his shoes and gets ready to leave and I'm like, 'are you kidding me?' Like and I know that that's not fair, to tell him to do something and then to be like, 'but what I really wanted you to do was really trying to manipulate or force you to if things got to that point for you to say, oh you're right. Look, we need to talk. I can't just walk out.' It's not fair to do but it does feel like an unhealthy, albeit, but like a coping mechanism, because it's unbearable. [00:23:20]

THERAPIST: It is in a way the taking control of some of those, your, feelings about to happen to you when you get shoved out of the way. (inaudible). Do you know -? I sometimes feel like I don't know that you know (inaudible).

CLIENT: I mean, I know I still feel it. I still experience it sometimes. I know it, but I don't know anything relative to it. So I don't -

THERAPIST: Yeah, you often say, 'yeah, I'm used to that.' And I think that that's part of it. It's like it's so annoying to you that that's the way the world works almost that is the way you're (unclear) works. [00:24:06]

CLIENT: I don't think that that happened to all of my classmates. Like I don't think that that happened to everybody else. But I also, I mean they experienced different things in their home life that worked okay. And I'm saying that everybody does and so it's not a typical thing. There are definitely some elements of it that are above and beyond the normal.

THERAPIST: And it's a particular kind of abuse, do you know what I mean? There are lots of different ways people (unclear) each other. But I (unclear) of me to actually imagine something psychologically worse, in a way, than I could of being shut out. Even being there and hitting you, there's something about the total, the capacity of completely cutting out and not think that you're getting tortured with anxiety. As kids this is your basic survival attachment. If you don't have this person you have nothing inside to rely on. So to me it makes a lot of sense that when Ivan is withdrawing on the couch it is triggering panic in you.

CLIENT: I'm genuinely upset by what he's doing. I'm not sure that I would be as I'm sure my experience would be different had I not experienced things so similar so many times growing up.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: It also to me feels like so when my parents would do that it among other things it would feel like they came first, essentially. Their need to walk out. Their need to not deal with it. Like it's too difficult to talk about. It's uncomfortable. It highlights something that's critical of them.

THERAPIST: It's extremely selfish that their discomfort runs the show.

CLIENT: But that's what it feels like with Ivan. It feels like my pain over what you did doesn't come first. Your shame over what you did comes first. And that is not sustainable just as living with my parents would not have been sustainable, maybe.

THERAPIST: So that's the part that gets treated with all kind of rage like, 'how dare you think you get to come first and you get to do this?'

CLIENT: It does feel completely that's the thing. Last week you said the different ways in which I try to gain control in that conversation and I was really struck by it. And it stuck with me because it was kind of like everything I did and I thought what would it look like if I didn't try to get control and wouldn't some of those things be part of a normal conversation in which one person you know, not every person was trying to get control, like expecting or wishing the other person to speak as part of the discussion. Like I understand the way in which I try to force that and that that's part of my controlling it but I also think that there's part of that that's very basic. Like anyone that would have a conversation with someone else you might not feel satisfied if the other person didn't talk and that might not be a control issue. That might be like a -

THERAPIST: Ramona completely. This is where I both and you as a child are actually being the one more mature than your parents, like saying, 'please come out here and talk to me.' Like, so we can call that being controlling in a way, but actually you're begging for something to happen that should be happening.' That's not you being sort of like wildly trying to control everything. I think one of the things it does how do I describe this? You get pulled to the place where in some ways the only thing that could happen is for you to try to control more in that scenario as a child, right? They've gone. The only thing you can do is try to beg and plead at that point, as a protective control thing. And the same thing actually is happening with Ivan, right? The thing that might look different right now with him, that I don't know whether this would change move things in him or not with your parents it wouldn't when you were a child I'm sure of it. I bet you probably tried this when you were really young and decided it didn't work. But I wonder about saying you're in the heat of the moment and starting to look at what happens inside you when he withdraws, and sharing that out loud, with Dr. Farrow, with Ivan by hearing that one of the things that happens inside you is that you get panic-stricken. He right now feels you're coming after him as a kind of controlling attack so he feels you as the aggressor because of his history, my guess is; that he probably has some transference to you where he goes inside to protect what little part of himself he's trying to hold onto and he feels pursued and attacked further. That's his experience of what's happening. I think if you could start to share out loud that actually you are scared when he withdraws you then become less of an abusive figure, right? You're not attacking him because the only thing you're feeling is rage. You are feeling angry that's for sure. It might even be rage there, but alongside it, Ramona, I think the thing that pursues most powerfully, is your panic.

CLIENT: I mean I try to tell Ivan it gets so frustrating and I get so worked up that I don't know what to do. I've tried to tell Ivan that I do feel like it wouldn't result in an actual fight, it would be so brief if he engaged and talked with me instead of me spending so much time trying to get him to the point of talking to me.

THERAPIST: Okay. So we're going to stop right there because the words that you just used as you described to me what you said to him were, 'I told him that I get frustrated and I told him that I get really worked up and that it would work so much better if he'd just try to engage me.' That reads, as I hear it as anger at him, really worked up with anger and this is what he needs to do differently so that I'm not as angry.' It's a different line to say, 'I'm going to tell you -' Does he know this happened as a child, for example? Does he know about it?'

CLIENT: Yeah. He does to a certain extent because he's even gone through I mean when we were dating at times when there would be a fight, Ivan would hang up the phone and shut it off for the weekend. And for two days I would be so worked up and it was such a complete repetition and it felt so cruel. So, so, so cruel. And I told him like how hurtful and how worked up and how like even, 'like Ivan, I cried for so long after you shut off your phone and I tried to call you and this took so much of my weekend I spent.' I feel it's not your fault, it's not I've tried to if it's not transparent how hurtful it is by now.'

THERAPIST: It's hurtful, Ramona. It's not just to you, it's hurtful.

CLIENT: I can tell him I can use the word panicky, if that can help, but I guess at this point if my parents or Ivan didn't realize how hurtful that is to do that, just to have done to you, I don't know what I can do exactly to but there is something that happens in this process that I'm aware of that's not okay on my end and that's with any of them, turning their back on me or, and it's around a discussion that's really not about something that's my fault so my mom not taking care of the house even though she's really angry at me and yelling at me it's not my fault that she didn't do it and it's maybe not (unclear) of me to confront that. It's like with my dad, never being home it's not my fault that he's never home and he can be angry with me for bringing it up but it's not my fault. Or Ivan can be really angry with me for bringing up housekeeping or the job or grad school or the lies or he can be really, really angry at me and project a lot of rage at me but it's still not my fault that he did. It's not my fault and so when they respond by withdrawing or shutting me out or abandoning me or when I've already perceived that they've put their needs first, their desires first by not cleaning the house, not coming home, putting work first, being too whatever to get up and take care of the apartment or work five jobs or work 40 hours a week I feel like they've already put themselves first and then to abandon me in the actual discussion of what happened feels like an even more powerful example of how unimportant I am or how unloved I am or how my pain doesn't matter and then I know that I have said things in anger in response to that and I've almost come to this belief that I know isn't true and I'm aware is not true but this belief that I can't hurt them.

THERAPIST: (inaudible).

CLIENT: And I know it's not true but it never seemed to -

THERAPIST: Didn't affect them that you're crying outside the door. There's some truth to that, again, of course, you would never do something really extreme (unclear). I think you are picking up on why is your mother not going, 'oh my goodness, my daughter is crying. What am I doing here? I don't know what I'm doing here. I'm going to stop this right now. And come out and say, 'I'm sorry I didn't handle that very well. I'm mad for what you did, but that's not the way I should have handled it.' That would be the effective and I think this is where your sense of self started to really, really deteriorate as not being of worth. If you can't cry and say you're hurting me and have the person say, 'oh really, tell me. I didn't know I was doing that and (unclear) change. (inaudible). [00:35:47]

CLIENT: It's a hard thing for me to break. It feels like I've done a much better job of it with Ivan in terms of almost trying to say something really, really hurtful because I don't believe that they can be hurt or because I want them to start to experience something in response to the pain that they've caused me, some kind of like -

THERAPIST: (inaudible) effective. (inaudible) effective.

CLIENT: After my dad had his affair there was a point at which I told him I hated him. Like the most hurtful thing possible and like it still haunts me that I said it and I just, like I wanted so desperately for someone to feel pain for what they did to me. Feel some of my pain, acknowledge it. Not that it clearly, it doesn't work that way. You don't get any of your own you don't get anything back by making them feel a fraction of what you think they made you feel, but it's a lie that I sometimes, it's felt almost like a coping -

THERAPIST: Well here's the thing then, Ramona, because you didn't feel like your parents were holding your experience in my mind when there was a quieter version of it, like tear in your eye, crying in a corner, or even looking sad or something, and then to have that affect them and say, 'oh, Ramona this must be hard for you with what's going on between your mom and dad.' You didn't get any of that. This is what happens with kids. They then ratchet it up. If I am invisible here, I can't affect them, what if I do it a little louder? And if they're still ignored what if I do it a little bit louder? This is when kids start resorting to, 'I hate you.' Because, and again I see that, even though it ends up being maladaptive because it doesn't do something effective in the long run, it comes from an adaptive place. What you are wanting is to be seen. If they can't see you when you're this big or when you're this big or when you're this big you have to get really big and loud.

One of the things that I think will start to help with that as a potential shift that you actually have already done in a big way without maybe knowing it and I think if you bring that back into the microscopic exchanges with Ivan it will continue to happen. He responded when you said, 'I made space.' Right? When you guys actually said, 'okay, we're going to take some time away.' Look what happened to you. Again, you undo the past and it's a long term process. He is now seeing you more than ever before, right? Bringing roses without being asked to. Doing laundry. Again, it's not going to be perfect, but he's doing things and recognizing your need and wishes in a way that he was not doing before you took some space. I don't think this has to mean like big we have to separate again in order to get back. But it might be something as simple as in the session if you bring something up and he withdraws that pursuing him right now, he's only experiencing as aggressive because of his transfers. And I think you feel like you feel like you have to get louder and louder and firmer and firmer and clearer in order to wrangle him in order to get him to affect you.

That's you getting triggered like, you're not hearing me. Maybe if I get louder, maybe if I say it again. Maybe if I really, really, really need to hear your talk, then maybe you'll finally be affective. I think he gets affected by you when you say, 'when you get sad, when you get withdrawn,' I actually think he does get affected. When you (unclear) this time he got really affected by you. I guess one of the questions is what would it be like in the session if you sat there in silence? He doesn't say anything. Just be in that place together for a while. See what happens. Don't pursue, in other words. I actually think you can affect by not pursuing much more than you know. It could be this is why I say I don't think this is a minor thing you're sort of dismissive of it when you say 'I could use the word "panicky" but regardless. I think it's a very big difference if you say, 'I feel panic stricken when you withdraw' versus 'I get frustrated when you withdraw.' To the listener it's a very different experience those two states. One feels like an attack. One feels like actually you're saying look at my (unclear) right now. I get really scared.' [00:40:12]

And I think, Ramona, that's the part, the trigger part is the panic part. Of course you're annoyed at him for withdrawing. This is what I'm saying someone who doesn't have this history of vulnerability would be annoyed at this behavior this totally immature behavior, but it would read more as like, 'what are you doing? Can we have a conversation?' Instead of feeling panic stricken. The panic stricken thing I think is the part that gets in your way because it's your history and I think that he reads that because you get more like frantic with trying to get him to come back, that he reads that as aggression and the more you could just sort of say, 'I'm scared right now' and then just tolerate the silence. I don't know what would happen.

CLIENT: No. I'd be willing to try it. Could I ask you about something different?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: So Thanksgiving, Thursday, so I kind of brought up, we had been talking about a ton of day to day things in couples, so we've had almost no conversation about what is happening for the holidays. So then Ivan and I started to talk about it on our own and Dr. Farrow said, 'give yourselves some credit and see if you can talk about these things on your own.' Which feels difficult.

THERAPIST: Meaning about what do to about the holidays.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Are you going home or not?

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm going home. Ivan has expressed he would like to spend it with me but he won't push. So it's difficult. My mom is making comments like, 'if he comes it would really embarrass him if he slept in any room but with you.' Like so uncomfortable. So uncomfortable. And Ivan's parents who haven't spoken to me in four months. I keep asking Ivan like have they said anything about the holidays? What's happening? Because usually they're very, very expressive about their wish to have us there as much as possible for those holidays. And evidently they mentioned at one point that they'd like to see us and I'm like, Ivan, you're parents still aren't talking to me not in like I've tried to talk to them and they won't speak to me but some very significant things have happened without them even asking if I was okay. Like, just absolutely nothing and it feels like a total avoidance and I told Ivan I didn't think we could transition from months of that to pretending like nothing is going on around the dinner table and I would feel that that would be very hurtful to be to experience that.

So now I feel very uncomfortable because Ivan kind of made it clear to his parents that that couldn't happen and so his dad sends me a text message yesterday saying how I haven't been forgotten and he's so pained that our relationship has become strained which makes me angry because that's not exactly that's not how I see it and that I'm welcome for the holidays. Anyhow, I was so worked up I waited 12 hours or so to read it because I was so worked up that I even had a message from him.

THERAPIST: You're angry that he contacted you?

CLIENT: No, no, no. I'm not angry that he contacted me. I was just worked up because I didn't know if it would say something like because I guess I feel as though because they never asked me if I was okay and they've been overwhelmingly supportive of Ivan and you know, smiling at Ivan, and like being very, very warmed towards Ivan. It feels like not only did they not ask if I was okay, not only like they never acknowledged that it was happening to me. They never acknowledged that like we support our son although we know this isn't okay, and if you need help we're here, like just any type, just anything. It feels almost like they blame me which they've kind of done before for his depression. It feels like when he says I'm sorry our relationship is so strained it feels like I did something. And I know I'm reading this through -

THERAPIST: No, no. I think you're reading it accurately. Here's the dilemma, just to sum it up they, I don't know this is who they're going to be unless they enter therapy themselves and it really is annoying. They avoid. They should be somewhat loving towards their son. He is their son (inaudible). He got an extreme or something, too extreme in some direction. Of course he should be held accountable. They're concerned. Ideally, they would have reached out to you and expressed concern. I think the question is, what do you do if this is who they are and how do you respond right now? We can't turn them into different people. What'll we do with that? Do you know what I mean? Like it seems to me if you want there to be some movement back towards something that doesn't feel as awkward, if that's where you and Ivan are headed, it's something that there's been a point of contact. It doesn't mean it was done wrong or maturely. It didn't (unclear) earlier. That's all true. But if you're goal is trying to get things to be less awkward for the time being, it's a step towards that goal. So this is what I might think of that. What do you actually want to have happen that will make it feel comfortable enough to go back to his home? Or is there nothing that would make it more comfortable? Do you know what I mean? It feels to me, again, this is a doorknob comment because we've got to stop, but it's hard for me to imagine you guys spending this holiday, Thanksgiving, right now together if you hadn't moved in yet together and were sleeping in the same bed. It feels uncomfortable for me for you I feel protective of (unclear). How does that then work that then you're it would be, in other words, your first step back into being like being a fully together couple. But around your families? It seems like you might need some time doing that by yourselves before you then bring yourselves as a couple to your families, respectively. I think that's totally reasonable for you to say. It's premature right now to actually be a couple for the first time since it happened, around your families sounds horrible. It's almost too much to work on all at the same time. Maybe for Christmas depending on where things are, but that's still weeks away. What will happen to you then, I don't know. Maybe not.

CLIENT: No, my only thought was that it would give Ivan a chance to speak to my parents about what has happened and to have that to do that so that several weeks later it would still be uncomfortable but -

THERAPIST: So that's another side of it. Then you'd want to be together, thoughtful about it. So what do we do? Who are we then on this family trip? We're this here. When the environment changes are we going to be sleeping in the same bed? Would you make up a bed on the floor or something like that? Or is there some way of honoring where things are in other words, not prematurely pushing you guys into something you're not ready for but also bringing the family back in a little bit more if that's what you're both wanting, if that's what you're wanting, especially Ramona, because that's why I'm here, (unclear) your experiences. How to honor where you and what you want if that's what you want to do. Okay?

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