TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hey.

CLIENT: Hi. Can I sit over there?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I need a new perspective.

THERAPIST: Sometimes I think that helps.

CLIENT: It does help. How are you?

THERAPIST: I'm very well thanks.

CLIENT: Good.

THERAPIST: Where would you like to start?

CLIENT: Um (pause) well, it's nice being here. Do you think this is transference love?

THERAPIST: Um (pause) I think that's far a part of it, but I don't know yet not to say more.

CLIENT: People seem to think that it's important, therapeutically. But it doesn't seem like people agree on why it arises and what it means. I've had a hard time ascribing more meaning to it then (pause) things that are relevant about the present. I can't really imagine that there is some deep past thing, memory, end of the (inaudible) way at this time.

THERAPIST: What does it feel like to you?

CLIENT: Uh (pause) it feels all encompassing. (pause) It feels hurtful, it feels exciting, it feels liberating. It feels inconvenient and distracting, and it also feels very good (pause) and I have (pause) I feel less creeped out. I think reading and also sitting, going back to sitting, and more sitting, and more sitting, it helps that.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. But why are you feeling creeped out?

CLIENT: I also I'm really uncomfortable with the position that it puts you in, and I wonder I just wonder a lot about it. I wonder about what percent of your patients in your whole career have (pause) or what percent of your therapeutic relationships could be characterized as transference being like the main object of growth or the main means of growth?

THERAPIST: With most intensive, long-term (inaudible) transference for me is a vehicle for growth. It kind of depends (inaudible) of a different sort.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: But it's always right in there.

CLIENT: It seems very very painful. Or I would be really I don't think I could ever be a therapist. Like I think I would fall in love with every single patient.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: As Jeremy joked, called him for a and I offered free free therapy -

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: because I wasn't able to detach.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And it also seems like you're this emotional whore.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: You're just receiving, and receiving, and receiving. And there's always the knowing ethical and clinical boundaries that you have to abide by, and it's not fair to me, yet, how useful those are. Maybe you don't need boundaries. Maybe you (pause) maybe it's been trained out of you. (pause)

THERAPIST: So to me it's like (pause) I sort of (something falls). What was that?

CLIENT: I don't know that that was in here.

THERAPIST: Oh, well, that's a nice phone. It fell off -

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: the box. I have no idea why it would have (laughs). Anyway, so the ideas that I'm like kind of tortured torturously and almost continuously caught between that intensity of my loving and other feelings of the people that I work with, on one side, and the sort of appropriate and therapeutic boundaries on the other?

CLIENT: I think there's there's those two things and then there's actually what believe to be the right thing for you, which is maybe comprised of those two. Or maybe it's just about what you believe leads to the most most growth. I don't know why you're here and what -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: your objective is, but it seems (pause) it's just annoying to me that you can't really tell me all about yourself.

THERAPIST: Like if when you have someone you want to know about them, like who they are, where they're from, what they're like -

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: what they're interests are, what sort of person they are? I mean, the (inaudible) things that you don't already know.

CLIENT: Yeah, I do. I would like to know those things. And even if there aren't any of those things disclosed, it doesn't seem (pause) like if this is going to be useful, doesn't it seem like you should be able to disclose your feelings with respect to the space and this relationship to me?

THERAPIST: How would that make it more useful?

CLIENT: Because that's what real life relationships are.

THERAPIST: That's true.

CLIENT: And I guess I haven't really I think a critical part of my love for other people is just, from my experience, sort of this like subtle knowing that that there are feelings on the other side, too. And that's maybe I (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: So that's like missing here and it feels very different from almost all of the non-transference relationships that I've had, though I think I've had quite a few transference -

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: relationships which I have been thinking about over the past week; professors and teachers -

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: in middle school and all that stuff.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And I wonder if that varies from person to person? Like what context brings out brings that out in different people?

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But I guess in those relationships I didn't experience a recipri a reciprocation of the -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: and I sort of just -

THERAPIST: Is that why you're referring to them as transference -

CLIENT: Uh -

THERAPIST: based, or is it because you go ahead.

CLIENT: No, I think because they arose in in like a it's a structurally asymmetric relationship.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: That was never going to be symmetric.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Or at least I didn't like I didn't wait and see, or I didn't push hard enough, or I didn't try -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: didn't try to make it symmetrical. (pause)

THERAPIST: Um (pause) I guess I imagine that in addition to like that sort of quiet, reasonable question about, ‘Well, if I'm not talking about my feelings about you, or my reactions to what's going on between us, then you know, how's this going to work and how's it going to help? And how's it going to square with what relationships are generally like?' I mean, that that all sounds quite reasonable to me. But I think there's also something else there, which is that I imagine you're hurting mad that I'm not saying more. What's the thought?

CLIENT: I think I'm afraid to -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I think it's scary to me that you could not be feeling anything.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And that's why I'm not saying more.

THERAPIST: I see. That can be really hurtful.

CLIENT: I mean it's ok. Yeah, it would be hurtful. I don't think I would be angry. I think I'm angry if I'm angry it's because of the like stupid context in which this arose.

THERAPIST: You mean like the stupid context of therapy?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: (laughs) I mean the stupid context of like ending therapy -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: when I didn't didn't want to.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Or ending it for the first time.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I'm also well, I also just wondered like why like what why it didn't come up before, and I think it did come up before and you didn't (pause) grab it.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I think when I tried to stop seeing you two times a week -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: that was a pretty -

THERAPIST: Yeah, major shift.

CLIENT: Well, I think that was me saying, ‘This is freaking me out. This is too intense.'

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: But I don't really remember what I told you.

THERAPIST: (pause) I don't remember well. I remember it coming up about insurance and money.

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: And I remember -

CLIENT: I think I did I think I said something like that it was taking a long time to get over each session without it getting to be too much. But I don't think that I really wanted to focus on that.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I think my feelings are pretty different now, but I imagine that was the beginning of -

THERAPIST: Yeah, my thought is like that's the sort of train transition or change that I usually flag and I actually do remember asking you about it afterwards. I think attributed some feeling you were having afterwards to -

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: you know, our changing and you were I'm pretty sure you were like, ‘Nah, no.' But -

CLIENT: Yeah, of course.

THERAPIST: and -

CLIENT: It wasn't -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: it wasn't right.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I don't think it would have -

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah.

CLIENT: come out.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: So maybe I'm mad at myself for not -

THERAPIST: Well, you could be mad at me and I certainly wish I had seen it and been able to get a hold of it earlier -

CLIENT: Yeah, I wonder -

THERAPIST: I think that would have helped a lot.

CLIENT: what you would have done. Well, certainly it would have like removed some of the stress that comes with -

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: being here again, just in terms of (inaudible) and my relationship with Jeremy. But it wasn't time and I don't think you could have done anything.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I think I would have retreated.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: But it does make me wonder who is responsible, is it you -

THERAPIST: Hmm. Like is it me for not catching it or is it you for -

CLIENT: No, is it who's responsible for what I'm feeling now?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Is it your being (inaudible)?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Is it my pattern is it something about something in my past, or is it just that I think you're cool and we've spent a whole bunch of time together alone (inaudible), it's been positive and and then I was asked to detach and that made it all the more intense.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Or maybe actually the detachment is what what made it sort of right then for me? That happens a lot, like when I leave something, the feeling magnifies. I start yearning for it and I miss it a lot.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) Yeah, often a lot gets stirred up by sort of the imminent prospect of leaving, like -

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: you know, in the period before treatment, and you know, a lot gets stirred up that relates to the end of (inaudible) about leaving.

CLIENT: Yeah, it didn't happen.

THERAPIST: And this is different, yeah.

CLIENT: Jeremy asked me the the day before our last session, ‘Tomorrow's your last session. How are you feeling? Are you excited? Are you sad? Are you -' well, I think I interrupted him and I said, ‘No, I'm sad. But fine.'

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: ‘Maybe I'm excited, too. Maybe I don't feel anything.'

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: ‘But I probably don't not feel anything because I just said that I'm sad, and maybe I'm excited.'

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And that was it. That was like the extent of my -

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: grousing. (pause) Jeremy has given me a pretty nice gift of being totally supportive. I've been able to talk to him about the main points -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: of my feelings. Actually in a context that was like that brought a lot of other stuff that was nice to talk about, too, over like a ton of wine.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: New Year's Eve.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Sort of me making it clear to him that this is intense and uncomfortable, and also felt good to me and -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: that I yeah, and that and we is that a possessive person and is that a jealous or nervous person? So he did what he normally does, which is encourage me to pay attention to what I'm feeling and not read Freud.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: I know he's he's pretty he's bugged by my intellectual curiosity.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But back to the conversation, there was lots of like, ‘Well, Jeremy, have you ever have you ever had feelings for another woman who was sort of like kind of an important woman to you?' And I sort of went and listed all the people that I've had feelings for and that it's been really nice to talk to him about it in that he can talk to me if he wants to.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And he thought for a while and he said, ‘No.' And he said, ‘I don't know if I it would be weird to tell you that.' And I said, ‘Why?' And, ‘You don't have to tell me, but I'm telling you.'

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And he said, ‘Well, you like to talk.' Anyway, it came up in my mind that he is my first and only sexual partner, and I don't know why that came up, but I keep thinking about that.

THERAPIST: Hmm. Are there more thoughts you're having related to that, or when you're thinking about it, what does it are you like -

CLIENT: Well, I think it's -

THERAPIST: having other sexual fantasies wondering what it would be like -

CLIENT: Yeah, I think I I was pretty aware of what I would be missing by being monogamous forever with Jeremy. And I think I was pretty aware of that pretty early on, and I shared those feelings with him. And it came up again a couple of nights ago -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: where we talked about who we who would be the most hurtful for us to have sex with for the other person. He asked he brought this up.

THERAPIST: So that's a not (inaudible) conversation.

CLIENT: In a sense.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: We were drunk.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And he's really special in that way.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: He is.

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: He's the most honest person I've ever met.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Like yeah. There's not a sliver of of of that at least, amazingly. It wasn't an easy conversation to have, but we we had been talking about it for quite some time, that like it was kind of uncomfortable for me to be in this position with you. And it made me think about the fact that actually I've been in this position before, and I think that's how it's going to be for me, is there are going to be these other people and maybe some of it is related to wanting to experience other people sexually. And maybe some of it is just related to the fact that I don't know, I'm kind of a lover. I'm -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: pretty into people and fall very hard -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: so I (pause) yeah, I guess that causes imposition but -

THERAPIST: Well, I think it's something that's very important about you and something that I think at one level you're sort of (inaudible) with yourself, and at another level not really at all. You know, I think whenever you've had a when you say you know this about yourself and you know how's it's happen to you in the past. And I guess my impression from the way you sort of (inaudible) about it and you said that like you're ok with that. And it's also really wonderful that Jeremy is as ok with it as he is.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: Because it's not hard to imagine being (inaudible) somebody not being as ok as he is with it.

CLIENT: And who knows if he's ok with it, but in eight years he's maintained the consistent -

THERAPIST: Yeah, at least he's done pretty well. I mean, I guess it feels like I guess the other part of it though, it seems to me, is I think there's another another level at which this is terribly disconcerting for you and you have a hard time acknowledging how anxious, vulnerable, out of control, painful it can be -

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: not just that that stuff is really there, but I think there's also a way in which you kind of acknowledge it, but I think you also kind of don't (inaudible) about it. Like yeah. (pause)

CLIENT: I think it scares me how close I can get in my head to crossing serious boundaries.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Do you mean it can feel to you sort of frightening inordinately, like something's going to happen, like you're going to get involved sexually with somebody or emotionally in a way that feels really wrong?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I wonder if I had gotten sexually involved with a whole bunch of more like a whole bunch more people -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: that maybe I wouldn't be longing for it or think about it in a way that is sort of hard for me to actually touch because I haven't like I can't draw on any experience.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I think I came close to having sex with a couple of people and decided not to, and those were important decisions that like I could have made differently, I think I they they would they would have been mistakes.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. I think you could reasonably have (inaudible).

CLIENT: Uh-huh. (pause) Yeah, there's a lot of pain there. (pause) It's not accessible (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I think I want to go away.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Or at least my instinct is, ‘How can I change things in the world (inaudible) this is more accessible or less painful or changes into something that I can relate to?'

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. (pause) Well, this is an issue for therapy or analysis. (pause) Cleaning out every issue (inaudible) you know, and if you had told me the which is not like you've said this is sort of is a hypothetical instead of a way that you're feeling. You know, that since you're stopping like like this sitting helps a lot, you know, sort of understanding a bit more about why you've been having a hard time, especially around and since the wedding. You know, ‘But I have people that I'm very close to and -'

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: ‘person who is that are really meaningful to me and then a really loving family, like, that's enough for now to help me deal with this.' That would make sense to me, and that, yet, while I think therapy could be helpful, it doesn't seem to me like it would be kind of the only tool that could help fix things, you know?

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: Or the only way to sort of manage what you're feeling. But for this that you're talking about now, but that's a little more therapy-specific -

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: if I'm honest about it. Like yeah, I don't know how to say it better than that. Uh -

CLIENT: Well, it has to be because it came out of therapy.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Right? Or you think it didn't come out of therapy?

THERAPIST: (pause) Well, I think both. In a way, of course, yeah, it came out of therapy and out of our relationship. But you're also saying it has a history for you that, at least if I'm understanding it -

CLIENT: I don't know (inaudible) connection.

THERAPIST: Oh, ok. I guess I heard you to be saying, ‘Look, I I've fallen for a number of people, and I fall hard, and I'm not sure why or how to -'

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: ‘what's going on there.' You know, ‘I wonder how much of it has to do with not having like been involved in more sexual relationships. Maybe it would be different if I was.' I guess those are the things that were making me think you meant -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: but I maybe I'm misunderstanding?

CLIENT: No, I I just was talking about things that seemed to have similar like to have common themes.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Common feelings, but I don't when I think of this, I don't think, ‘Here we go again,' or -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: or ‘These are sp special, familiar feelings.' I think this is a really these are really new feelings and maybe it just hasn't happened enough where it's so repetitive for me yet, but -

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: also the way in which I'm processing it this time -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: is really different.

THERAPIST: Right. I know you're -

CLIENT: I'm repressing -

THERAPIST: Yeah, that relates to -

CLIENT: much.

THERAPIST: therapy stuff and is more (inaudible).

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Sitting does like get me closest to appreciating the quality of the feelings -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: the most, other than therapy, perhaps.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: (pause) My instinct is to is to push like I don't want to just be another client.

THERAPIST: You mean push me -

CLIENT: Push you.

THERAPIST: and push me to like give you more of a response or a reaction -

CLIENT: Maybe.

THERAPIST: when you're talking about it, and how you feel? Could that be?

CLIENT: (pause) Yeah. Or like push you beyond your comfort zone.

THERAPIST: Hmm. In what way?

CLIENT: (pause) I don't know I think it would feel good or it would be satisfying in a kind of darker way, or me to know somehow that this was like an issue for you.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: That it was painful or difficult or pleasurable or yeah. Because that's how it feels to me.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I mean, I guess it relates to what I talked about last time, which is that if I knew that you were vulnerable in some way, I would feel at ease or more at ease.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I should mention that I am like totally feeling way more at ease in every other respect, I think, because this is taking up some much mental -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: capital.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Like everything else just feels so easy.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I have so much confidence.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Hmm. We need to stop for now. Can we talk about it (inaudible)?

CLIENT: Ok.

THERAPIST: All right.

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