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THERAPIST: Two weeks is (unclear) given everything happening I'm sure.

CLIENT: We were still seeing Dr. Farrow at that time so -

THERAPIST: I don't know how many (unclear) but I did get an e-mail update that it was a really hard session.

CLIENT: Yeah. That was two weeks ago.

THERAPIST: And you saw her again?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: (inaudible).

CLIENT: So I guess what happened before that session was I caught Ivan in a lie and it wasn't a significant lie, but the actual handling of the situation I felt went very, very well that evening and then the session talking about it did not go well. So it was almost kind of bizarre. So it was actually a very, very small thing as simple as I was on the phone with Ivan Monday and I said to him, 'just a reminder please put the conversations on the schedule on our (unclear) calendar,' because that's the deal. He schedules like three conversations a week where we take space to just talk about those things and he's like, 'I did it.' And I said, 'oh, that's so great thank you.' And then I think it was the next night, actually. I looked at the calendar and I said, 'wait a minute, I don't see anything on here.' And he's like, 'oh I put it in the wrong dates and I had it in November still and it wasn't updated and so I had to rip it out.' And I said, 'No, because before we left for Thanksgiving I completely erased November and he's like, 'yeah, I had it all in the first week and I realized I had it off and I just had to,' and I said, 'Ivan, I can see that it's still totally wiped clean how I left it for November. It sounds like you might be starting out of a lie and he looked and me and he said, 'I lied.'

So it was like bizarre because like why would you tell three lies about something so little when clearly I'm not going to completely lose my temper because he was a day behind because at that point I didn't ask him a few times anyway. So I told like I thanked him for telling me the truth well, admitting the lie and I told him actually it felt really good, I did what you said, which was like 'I feel frustrated, I feel sad like you didn't tell me the truth in the first place. I'm confused why such a small thing you would go to like telling three or so lies to cover it,' and I said I didn't understand and that I felt that it was important for him to come to the point where he believed the outcome of telling me the truth was going to be even if it was not good was going to be better than initially lying about it. He said, 'I really didn't want to disappoint you. I didn't want to let you down and that's why I did it. And he's like, 'I meant to do it after I said I did it and I just forgot.'

So we had like a five minute discussion about it and then he sat down and I guess that's when he did it he sat down and wrote it out and then we didn't and it was fine for the night. Then we had dinner. We had a nice conversation. No fight. No nothing. I felt like it went very well.

THERAPIST: Because you had addressed it.

CLIENT: Yes, I yes.

THERAPIST: Do you feel like he could hear you when you said, 'I'd rather you tell the truth -?'

CLIENT: I think so. But I know I've said this to him multiple times now and I think it's just something that he gets but it's really hard for him in the moment for whatever reason to go with that. So anyway, I guess I felt that it went really, really well in the moment but I was scared because I'm like, 'wow, you're lying to me about something so little, it's like' so, I don't know. Well any lie is scary but then the session did not at all go well and I'm not sure why. You know, at one point Ivan said, 'you know I can't come in here and confess every week,' because I brought up the lie in the session which was already like because she asked me, 'if you wanted to bring anything up?' And I'm like, 'are you sure, Ivan?' and he really didn't and then -

THERAPIST: She asked him these things.

CLIENT: Yeah. And then I brought it up because I felt like I feel like if she's going to help us she needs to know what's happening and it's maybe not helpful for Ivan to be able to lie to me and then nobody even knows. It's kind of bizarre to see therapists in a week anyway with that going on. So he said, 'I don't feel like I can confess every week.' And I got very upset and I started crying because it just felt like yet again, sometimes it has felt and I'm not saying that this is how Ivan reacts or what he actually thinks, but sometimes when he goes to a place where he goes to his feelings, where he talks about how difficult it is to have told these lies and how ashamed he is and how it feels like I can almost here like, 'it's so rough on me to be held accountable for lying.' Or like, 'it was so rough on me to get through doing these terrible things.' It doesn't sound like, 'of course, you're upset that I lied to you, that was wrong. Let's talk about how to work on it.' [00:05:24]

So I wasn't okay with hearing that and then Dr. Farrow brought in the conversation. She was like, 'maybe sometimes Ivan's small lies stem from miscommunication.' And she's like she suggested that, she asked if I made eye contact with him when I asked him to put it on the calendar, or I asked him several times. She's like, 'have you were you making eye contact?' And I was like, 'no we were just on the phone for a few minutes and I mentioned it again,' like so that felt almost a little and I know it comes from a well-intentioned place, but it felt a little frustrating when Ivan lies again and admittedly this is a small thing and I know it's not going to be a perfect process but it's hard when the response is like, 'Ramona, what could you have done better so that he wouldn't lie?' Ramona, if you hadn't been on the phone, and had it been in person and had made eye contact maybe he wouldn't have forgotten and then he wouldn't have lied because he didn't forget. And I was like, this is crazy.

And I know that's not quite fair because I know it comes from a place where she's just trying to help in any way, but it felt like it doesn't feel like Ivan forgetting is the problem. And in fact, Ivan is taking medication for his ADHD now and we're going to talk to Dr. Bourd (sp?) on that so that feels like a very different problem that isn't traumatic to our marriage typically anymore because he's done a lot. So it doesn't feel like I want to address how do I facilitate Ivan remembering better. It feels like I want to address even if he forgets just being honest. So it was a really terrible session.

THERAPIST: One of the things I was wondering is when Dr. Farrow said that, if it might have triggered in you, Ramona, a kind of repetitive experience from your childhood where it feels like you're getting, like everyone's noticed the (unclear) except for you, in a way. Do you know what I mean? [00:07:39]

CLIENT: It feels reminiscent of the I'm not angry at myself that I don't take care of the house I'm angry that you brought it up.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And you need to find a way not to bring it up. I don't need to find a way to fix what I'm doing wrong. And it feels like I guess we've I don't know, I feel like you've spent so much time with me trying to realize what is my fault and what isn't my fault that how coping, how the coping mechanism of this is all my fault is not helpful or not healthy for me. And then when someone says something like that it feels like, 'wait a minute, I thought you said, this wasn't the road I should go down.' I'm not saying she was trying to do that and I understand that if she if there was any way that Dr. Farrow could make the situation better she is just looking for different ways but again I'm not upset that Ivan forgot. And if he had told me in the moment, 'you know what? I forgot and I'm going to do that when we get off the phone, or I'm going to,' I might have been annoyed for a second because I reminded him again, but it's very, very different.

THERAPIST: I think you would be a little annoyed and that's really different than being really upset because he lied three times.

CLIENT: Exactly. And being disappointed that it didn't happen yet for a few minutes versus being disappointed that there is another lie and actually a couple of layers of lies.

THERAPIST: And there are different levels of disappointment.

CLIENT: Yes. Yes. And one is going to last for a few minutes and the other is going to leave me with like almost a feeling of we're back to square one in some ways.

THERAPIST: So here's one of the things I wonder we'll get back to Ivan in a second. I would guess, Ramona, that you have done so much work around this theme of what's your fault, what's not your fault and recognizing the number of times you've blamed yourself for things and hated yourself for things that actually had nothing to do with you and were not your fault at all. So that when you get into this couples therapy session and the therapist or it even could be here and it's me perhaps in another time, sort of asking I wonder if you could have done this differently or did this have an effect that you asked it this way. I would guess that you could be having a transference to Dr. Farrow as like your parents telling you the only problem is that you're noticing that the house is needing to be cleaned. So the next step for you, there, with Ivan, with me, with any other relationship it could even be a boss or something who is saying that I think, what if this is your fault? Is what if you just think, what if it's not my fault actually and could persist at sharing what's on your mind and what you know about the scenario in a way that would move the other person's feeling about it? Do you know what I mean? [00:10:52]

It's frustrating and disappointing that Dr. Farrow doesn't just get it. At the same time she isn't your individual therapist to get in every way what's in your psyche and to watch what's there. Just like she doesn't get that for Ivan either. Like William Bourd knows there's a lot more than Dr. Farrow knows about Ivan's experience, too. So what I wonder is what would it feel like to say to Dr. Farrow, I hear what you're saying and I could imagine that being applicable in some context for some people, but in this situation I just think it's not because you can ask Ivan, and correct me if I'm wrong Ivan but it was very clear to you what was supposed to have happened, right? Like it doesn't sound like he would even agree that there was confusion about the goal, right? Like he's admitting, yeah I knew what I was supposed to do and I didn't do it. Right? So it just doesn't apply.

CLIENT: Yeah and I guess I also, I don't know, I guess I didn't think about it going into session but after the session, the way it turned out, I felt so proud of myself I felt really, really proud of myself that I thanked him for telling me that he lied to me, was kind of a bizarre concept for me and it felt really good at the time but it was also a really big deal for me to say, I feel and list off a lot of feeling as opposed to saying, 'this is ridiculous,' or, 'you do this every time.' Or like I asked you for something so reasonable. So I felt really good about it felt really productive. It didn't take up the whole evening. It took up a few minutes and it felt resolved and it felt really good and I later on Ivan said, 'yes, I really did appreciate that, and in the session he didn't. And if Dr. Farrow did, I probably wasn't in a place to hear it because I was so frustrated. And again I felt like, we are trying to target Ivan's forgetfulness. Like we aren't coming to couples therapy because Ivan forgets all the time. That's not a couple's issue.

THERAPIST: Ramona, you're so clear with me about your understanding about what transpired. I think you know a lot about what's happening to you and Ivan. You know a lot about (unclear). You know a lot about (unclear). You even know that it would be helpful for you to have everyone in the couples therapy sort of pause and recognize that you did this different thing and maybe that didn't happen. [00:13:12]

I wonder what it would be like for you to say to Dr. Farrow exactly what you're saying to me in the tone that you're saying it in a calm, retrospective, wanting to talk about the last session understanding of what was happening; that you could hear her point but you just didn't think that it was applicable and it kind of felt like it repeated for you; you could say more about your childhood in a more direct way to say this is the kind of thing that happened where I got blamed and it felt like this was what was happening. What would that be like to say in that space?

CLIENT: I'm not sure. I tried to say a little bit last session because honestly that session was so bad I left and I was like I don't know if there's a lot of point in coming back because it just felt ridiculous quite honestly I mean to it felt like everything Ivan's done, the fact that I am going to couples therapy I think is significant and the fact that I'm willing to have a calm conversation and work on how to respond to his lying I think that's a big deal because it would be much simpler in some ways to be like, 'no I'm not spending all this time and money and effort on talking about how to deal with my husband's lies. But I mean we did go back mostly because we had a conversation after, Ivan and I, and he kind of said, 'I'm sorry. I said a lot of things I didn't mean. I got very defensive.'

THERAPIST: Ivan said a lot of things, you mean, in session?

CLIENT: That's what he said.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: And I was like, 'it's nice to hear that afterwards but it felt like kind of a wasted session because -

THERAPIST: So that came up again in the next session.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Did he say that out loud?

CLIENT: No. I said that he had said that. I think it's so -

THERAPIST: So something's happening where you are actually doing more work by yourselves in a way right now.

CLIENT: Maybe. Like we are having like three conversations a week. That's the goal and I will say now that we're doing that more it's more bumpy than having dinner every night without having conversations. It is more bumpy and it is more difficult and after we talk about it like I purposefully schedule it towards the end of the day because I know we'll need some space afterwards and we're not going to have a nice dinner and talk about our days afterwards I'm just going to need some space to think and be have some space for me. Because I am upset and the feelings do come back. And I kind of also told him I'm like I was upset about the calendar but more than anything I think if I'm going to continue to go to couples counseling with you it's more than fair for you to schedule these conversations and for us to actually do them. So that's part of the deal and Dr. Farrow was helpful actually in our last session. She came up with a not a contract, but like an agreement if Ivan doesn't schedule the conversations, if he misses a couple like I'm not supposed to remind him about them, so if he misses a couple of them on his own there should be then there should be he sleeps on the couch for a couple of nights or something like that some kind of consequence so that it doesn't continue like this.

THERAPIST: How did that feel to you?

CLIENT: It felt weird. Because on the one hand it's hard because I think a lot of times I've come in here and I've said I want there to be clear limitations, but on the other hand it's hard to say like, 'well, if you don't do this you have to sleep on the couch' like I'm punishing him. And she said, 'don't think of it as a punishment, think of it as a consequence if the agreement is not met.' And she also suggested like me not coming to a couples session. She's like, 'but I think I want to take that off the table because it's actually a place where you can talk about the problem.' So I don't know. It felt weird, but it felt good in the sense that she was going to hold him accountable because I had brought up in the session that didn't go well, I said, 'I don't know what to do,' if Ivan's not doing the homework that she gives him and she doesn't remember to ask him about it. I think she doesn't remember them I don't think she's intentionally like and she's like, 'well I don't want to force things. I don't want to make this like school where you have to turn in homework.' And said, 'I want there to be some kind of accountability because if there isn't I think that's such a big part of what we're trying to work on.'

THERAPIST: Once it's assigned, it's important that it gets followed up in some way.

CLIENT: It feels important to me and what I don't want to do is go into the session and say, 'Dr. Farrow, Ivan did not do his assignment, and could you respond to that?' Because that is very, very different from Ivan coming in and saying, 'I didn't do it, let's talk about it.' It completely changes the whole session from the beginning, I think.

THERAPIST: Yeah. He's sounding like he's having a harder time owning his mistakes and his part of things in front of her.

CLIENT: I don't know. I think he's like I don't want to come in here every week and like confess to you and that's kind of interesting because Ivan got he confessed eventually about the websites and the assaults and such to her. Like I think he brought all those into the session like he never confessed to me. I found out about them. So maybe he did do that. But that's pretty much been it. It's not like a weekly -

THERAPIST: That's what I mean. That happens in a kind of momentary time in your relationship, but as the things come up he's constructing it also as "confessing" which is a pretty interesting, kind of religious -

CLIENT: It sounds harsh. It sounds really harsh.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's like my sins instead of talking about the idea of talking about the issue in a kind of exploratory way he's seeing it only as, let me reveal to you what's really horrible about me so I can get my lashes and then move on. Who wouldn't feel so ashamed it wasn't speakable then, you know? I wonder if there's some way of taking that up about how he doesn't feel like confessing but talking about what's transpired.

CLIENT: Right. And that's something Ivan and I talked about on our own. I said I didn't understand where that was coming from. And he's like I didn't mean for it to come out like that that's isn't what I meant when I said that. I'm sure there is part of him that doesn't enjoy I mean I don't enjoy going either exactly, it isn't a fun activity, but the focus is very much on the big the trials and that is very different than if we both went in to talk about what was a mutual something very mutual. So it is a different dynamic and I can imagine that feels pretty terrible for him, but I'm not quite sure what there is to be done about that. I will say, sometimes I wonder if Ivan can be more so I'm not sure going into the session that he wasn't going to bring up his lie and that he was thinking about it and thought, 'I don't want to talk about this,' or, 'I'm ashamed,' or, 'I shouldn't have to.' I think it's honestly more that Ivan doesn't so he's not doing any of the journaling that Dr. Bourd said to do specifically about the big betrayals like the websites and stuff. He's not doing it. Which is something I brought up that and nothing happened with it. I know that a couple of times he's actually created like talking points for his sessions with Dr. Bourd because he does have trouble remembering and because it can be overwhelming to come up with to remember everything in, you know, 50 minutes time from a whole week. [00:21:18]

THERAPIST: He's only seeing him every other week. Am I right?

CLIENT: He skipped one week. But no, it's weekly. It should be weekly. So I guess sometimes I wish he would do that for couples, even if he's not willing, or able, or whatever to do the journaling I wish he would almost think about things during the week and come with things to say because I feel like I'm always doing that. And like I say, it does change the tone if I talk about something he did.

THERAPIST: So that's a great idea, to propose in that space. I wonder what like it's another thing to assign him and then there actually is a built-in accountability because it's happening right in front of Dr. Farrow. It's his job to bring up what there is to bring up. What would that be like?

CLIENT: That would be nice.

THERAPIST: Say, I'm going to take back seat in here and I would like him to lead the conversation about what to talk about (unclear). And then if there's nothing you don't go. You know? I wonder if that would like (unclear) a little bit to have to -

CLIENT: Maybe because I guess I thought that's a good idea and for Ivan I think it's -

THERAPIST: (inaudible) and it gives him time to think about it and it comes from him and Dr. Farrow hears it comes from him more instead of you saying here's what Ivan did wrong again this week, right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Which is not what you're really saying but I can understand how that dynamic could feel that way to all three of you over and over and over again.

CLIENT: I will say I know he's very, very capable of it because we had one of our scheduled conversations the other night and we talked about the assault and I was floored because for 10 minutes or so Ivan talked. Just Ivan talked. And he told me what he thought, what he felt, what he actually did leading up to the assault. How he felt about it in the moment; how he felt about it afterwards, how he feels about it now. It was so helpful and it was so he didn't stammer, he didn't pause for a minute, he didn't it was really, really helpful. It was really, really productive and he clearly had put in a lot of thought preparing for it. So it is possible and when it happens it's very, very helpful. He didn't shut down, he didn't it was really helpful.

THERAPIST: So he has the capacity. It might be a little bit harder for him from another (unclear) besides you. It does add like another judge, in a way. I don't mean that literally but it can feel like someone else is going to be watching and could tell what's wrong (inaudible). [00:24:07]

But in a way, Ramona, another way of putting what you're saying is that it sounds often like you're there in a couples session trying to do the work. You're muscling through bringing up the hard stuff (unclear) at least, and/or bringing up what happened this week and he's not. He's sitting on the backburner a little bit more just waiting for it to come from you and that can also feel like spinning your wheels for you. Do you know what I mean? Like if you're not feeling like he's meeting you halfway in having a dialogue with you with her and kind of getting feedback about the way the dialogue unfolds, then it's a waste of your time and money.

CLIENT: Maybe. For me it does feel a lot like the I don't know, I guess I just feel like I take the assertive role, the pursuing role however you would put that. I've done that with my parents, I've done that with Ivan. I don't want to hold them accountable. I don't want to "mom" him. I don't want to like I really don't.

THERAPIST: I think this is great. If you leave with this, say, 'what would it be like? I really do want to step out of this role. I've played this role and I really don't think it's productive right now. We're both trying to shake it up a little bit and be in a different way and be able to talk about things in a different way.' You could try it for four sessions or something like try to be time limited three, four, two or five, where you just say for the next few sessions I'm going to take the backseat and I'll respond to whatever it is Ivan wants to bring up if he thinks it will be helpful for us to explore together. I think that's a really good idea and I bet he will rise to the challenge when he has to.

CLIENT: That would be helpful. Dr. Farrow also last session talked about how to (unclear) about the actual experiences, how to mediate our conversations or how to help with it without she said that she understandably she said that it was understandable, that she could tell it was frustrating to me when she would just speak with Ivan about the things that he did and to try to understand more and more and that it would feel like it was empathetic to me, like she was really sympathetic with him and really I mean I get that, I think Dr. Bourd needs to sympathize with him, to help him, because he's there with a problem. He's not there as so what he did was wrong but it's also hurtful to him and it's also a problem for him. So I get that but in couples it feels different. So we talked about that. [00:27:00]

So that could be helpful. But I wanted to ask you. So we talked somewhat about the assault and that felt very, very productive and very helpful. And we talked some about the list and we talked some about the website and for whatever reason, talking about the assaults maybe not because that conversation was so productive and so helpful and Ivan was so I don't know, he was so compassionate when he talked about it sensitive. And he found a way to explain what he did but also to say like, he said, 'my heart was racing when I was doing this because I knew how horrible it was. I mean how wrong it was. I was so upset and yet I did it and after you found out I felt so horrified that I just didn't say anything in the aftermath.' So I don't know, that was very, very helpful so for whatever reasons, talking about the assault hasn't been as difficult as talking about the list or the websites and Ivan has told me that he and Dr. Bourd evidently are really discussing this and trying to figure out why it happened and why it goes on. And Ivan said that Dr. Bourd used the phrase, 'proxy projection' have I got that right? So Ivan's trying to explain to me that he really wanted that to that he really wanted a sexual relationship with me and he would fantasize about me as he watched these things and I feel scared because when Ivan talks about when he explains websites or he explains, it sounds like a favorable explanation like clearly that's still horrifying kind of, but it so different from I was on this website, I got on Match because I was thinking about dating or I was thinking about leaving you or I really wanted to fantasize about other people or see if other people are interested in me. The explanation of 'I wanted to be a better person for you, I was so sad that I wasn't,' it's like a very "favorable" explanation.

THERAPIST: And it's actually a very uncommon explanation. When this kind of thing comes up between couples it's not even typical of what people will say. And that's why I'm sort of struck I'm struck that there's a chance that it could be true because it's not usually what people would say about it because it's so extremely favorable. Do you know what I mean? So maybe that means that's actually what was happening in this experience or maybe it means he's still protecting something. But even the thing that he's protecting, when I hear this it seems to me not very likely that he's fantasizing about someone else that actually went to the he would be fantasizing about somebody else, literally trying to fantasize what it would be like to have a relationship with another person. I think that's extremely unlikely from what you've described in everything that's transpired.

The thing that is less favorable but more in the middle that could be possible is something more along the lines of I want this with you but I'm scared to bring it up or make a move or I don't know what to do to make this kind of part of our relationship grow. I'm worried you'll reject me if I bring it or if I push it. I'm ashamed of wanting it. I'm so ashamed I have a hard time even talking about it so that it became a sort of solution for a part of himself like with sexual feelings in parts of people, right? That was just like all the other solutions in like keeping it in a secret (unclear) where he didn't have to do the hard work of discussing it directly with you. Which doesn't mean not wanting it with you. Do you know what I mean? It actually could mean wanting it but being too ashamed and scared to go there. Like it's easier to just look at some stupid porn site, not because of an attachment to that person at all, but because of a fear of bringing that part of him into the relationship with you could feel like he didn't deserve to. [00:31:43]

CLIENT: Oh no, he's said that. He's completely said that. It's just I don't know, it's hard. On the one website he went on he's said so evidently it's the kind of website where people solicit for sex but also solicit for like private online exchanges where there's nudity and payment and all kinds of terrible things and he said he did click on, he said four different people but like they were fully clothed, they were just talking provocatively, trying to get people to go to their chat rooms, whatever. He's like, 'I didn't see any nudity.' And he's like, 'I was disgusted with myself the whole time. I don't know why I felt compelled.' Because I said, so why click on second person if you found out it was so disgusting?' And he said, 'oh I felt so compelled. I knew how wrong it was and I was disgusted. It wasn't even attractive to hear these women talk about give me money for sex.'

And part of me wonders and part of me feels that that can be true, and that could sound feasible, but it also could be very favorable and I wouldn't know the truth. Just like it sounds pretty favorable that I found all three websites that he went on and created mini-profiles. And I said, 'how would I know if there were any others?' And there weren't any others. So it could be very, very true. It's bad enough. I'm not acting like this is a wonderful explanation but it could be so favorable, I just want to be cautious.

THERAPIST: Yeah. And yet, what if let's say I don't know how to describe this? It feels like even if it's less favorable it's not going to be maybe your worst fear either. Do you know what I mean by that?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: It doesn't sound like really wanting to have an affair.

CLIENT: No it doesn't. In fact, the one website the worst website in my mind where it's like a website for sex, essentially, to hook up with people, that he made a profile on, that he said was a pop up ad that he clicked on, that he said that he spent like 10 minutes on, the whole thing like from start to finish, he literally put in like looking for a discreet relationship.

THERAPIST: He did.

CLIENT: Well he clicked on it. He said I didn't write that, I just clicked on a few things randomly and quickly and I said, you know, how do I know that your explanation of I just clicked on something to finish the profile to see what the website was versus you clicked on discreet relationship and you're a married man and that is very different like how do I know that you weren't seriously thinking about it fantasizing about it, like someone going that far, like what if I could be this person who created a website and I said, how do I know and he was like no the fantasy was always with you and I just wanted these things with you and it's hard, because Dr. Farrow said, at some point part of you realized that these websites were really disconnected from your actual wife, obviously.

THERAPIST: And maybe you're also picking up on there's something more it's not just (unclear) or something like that. It's a website about a discreet relationship.

CLIENT: It's not about a discreet relationship.

THERAPIST: It's not.

CLIENT: No, it's not for married people. It's just a general website, evidently for creating sexual it's not a dating website. It's like a sex website. It's like a Match.com but a terrible version of it.

THERAPIST: For online sex or for actual meeting up?

CLIENT: I think it could be both.

THERAPIST: Okay. But do you see what I mean like how that is a different site than just a porn website where there's not ever going to be contact or even the potential of contact with a real person?

CLIENT: Exactly, right? So when he says it's a pop-up ad that's actually for me like maybe it's not. But that's a really, really big difference from he looked for a website that did that. That's actually a huge difference. It doesn't mean that it's okay or good or it like makes me feel a whole lot better.

THERAPIST: Be more of an impulse than a premeditated thinking that.

CLIENT: Yes, or 'what is this?' versus and he tells me and something else that he has told me because when I found in his You Tube history that there are some videos that were some nudity or some that were like provocative, I don't know, and he tells me that he did used to watch some types of porn clips or maybe porn is the wrong word he would literally be like nude yoga or nude beaches or doctor's exams or it would be nudity and not necessarily men and women having sex. It wasn't necessarily pornographic, so maybe that's the wrong word even. But he's like 'I did this in high school sometimes. I started like at the end of high school and I would sometimes during college hide it from himself and watch something like a doctor's exam or yoga so that it didn't seem like he was watching nudity but he was like I was curious and I wanted to know and I had like a compulsion to have some kind of thought. I never masturbated to it or anything. I just wanted to see that sometimes. And he was like, 'when you and I got engaged, I never watched anything again.' And he says as long as we've been married I got on those websites but I never watched anything. And he claimed that there was almost no nudity on these sites and clearly there wasn't on Match.com and he never even finished his profile. But it's just [00:37:43]

THERAPIST: And I hear your question how do you trust that this is what it is and not something else?

CLIENT: Right. Because of course I think that anyone who found out their spouse was on a website like that would want desperately to believe that it was a terrible decision in the moment based on really wanting it with them. I just don't want to believe that out of convenience or -

THERAPIST: It's funny also that the it's the easiest explanation, the extremes are easier to grapple with. Like if you knew he actually was clicking on these websites and actually was thinking for a long time about wanting to have an affair. That would be easier, too, because it's black and white more. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Because then you'd know. Then you'd know what it was just as much as I just wanted to be with you and it all came to me passively and I didn't ask for any of this is an easier explanation to deal with. The explanations that are in the middle of those two options I think are messy ones. You know, when he's saying to you, 'all I felt was disgust.' And you say to him, how could you really feel disgust if you then clicked on another one? What does that mean? You're trying to add this up. What if he felt disgusted but also felt excited and titillated, right?

CLIENT: Yeah. What if that's what I said to him?

THERAPIST: And it's not judgmental with himself for feeling excited or titillated like it sounds like it's probably a real nasty mixture of all these kinds of feelings going on which still doesn't mean actually wanting to have an affair. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And that's a big difference. And I think you're clear about wanting to make sure it isn't that because that's a different category. But even this messiness is a little messier than -

CLIENT: It did.

THERAPIST: Than 'it really had nothing to do with me, almost and the only thing I felt was disgust' which is a pretty clean explanation.

CLIENT: It is which is why I'm trying to be so cautious and I've almost even asked him what is does Dr. Bourd believe that? Does he buy that? Is that a real thing? And his explanation has been so far that Dr. Bourd has told him that there is like, with men, there is a I don't know if compulsion is the word he used, but there is like a strong urge for sex that isn't maybe the same in women. But I guess I want to ask you at one point you said, 'these aren't the types of things that people do when they are going towards having an affair.' Or going towards wanting to?

THERAPIST: And so the question is -

CLIENT: I guess I was wondering why you said that or what that means. [00:40:31]

THERAPIST: I don't remember what we were talking about or what my exact words were but -

CLIENT: I think going on the websites. You said going on the websites wasn't necessarily what people do before they if they were really serious about having a relationship.

THERAPIST: Okay, so here just to clarify. It can be in certain circumstances, but the reason I would be less likely to think it was completely about that for Ivan is that it fits so I almost picture him as too ashamed and scared to even ever go down that path in his mind, ever. Do you know what I mean? It feels for him more like symptomatic of the things that are too hard to be known and getting pushed under the rug. And that's very different than, 'I'm really not happy in my marriage and I want out.' Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Um hmm.

THERAPIST: It just doesn't have that flavor at all. At a more extreme flavor where it actually resulted in having sexual contact with somebody else I don't mean an affair, but like a hook up, a one night stand or something it could even be I'm so ashamed of myself in the presence of my wife who I love and I really wish we were just in love with each other but I feel like a rat piece of s-h-i-t in front of her that I want to at least have a fantasy of going to someone who wouldn't know this about me. Do you know what I mean? Which is still not about having an affair with a real other person, but about escaping his shame.

CLIENT: But if Ivan wasn't so ashamed about having done these things or ashamed perhaps over other things, would it be possible?

THERAPIST: Would it be possible -?

CLIENT: For him to yeah, is that what this is indicative of?

THERAPIST: It's complicated, Ramona. I don't know if it's a straight forward yes or no and it's so hard to divorce him from his shame because it's so pervasive in who he is. Do you know what I mean? Like I'm imagining for example that his job trajectory and what's come up around school and shaming himself and shaming you and there's so much shame right now that he can hardly stand to be in his own skin. Do you know what I mean? So even like an online website it could even be an online website about a vacation site or some prestigious job. You found him looking at these jobs that you felt he was really unqualified for. Those are other examples just like pornography of like fantasizing about some escape place instead of dealing with the reality of his life, instead of facing his wife and saying, how do we improve our relationship so that we are both into each other in a physical way, too? Which is much harder than looking at a porn site, right? That's easy.

And so that's what it feels more symptomatic of. I'd be most concerned about his having an affair if he were not addressing the shame and things were getting further and further pushed under the rug. That's to me when it feels like to me that he'll be getting more and more and more likely to be retreating into kind of bubble fantasy escape places, of whatever kind that could be. Doesn't have to be a sexual kind. It could be another kind that feels like just as much of a betrayal. Like he tells you he's working. He's got a great job and he's lying to you that he's going to his job every day of something because he's trying to cover up feeling so ashamed of working forever, or say he loses his job at Subway. Can you imagine the shame of coming home and telling you, guess what? I lost my job? And so the more I think that he is bringing this stuff out from under the rug and putting it on top and talking about it, I think the less likely it becomes. Do you know what I mean? [00:44:16]

CLIENT: I do. I don't know. So the websites it's so bizarre, because actually Ivan asked me out for over a year before we started dating. He always very much pursued me. He told me he loved me before I told him. He was like he was always like just a few steps ahead and he was always much more serious about me, like completely he never like dated anyone else while like the minute I got to college he never dated anyone else or asked anyone else out. He was very loyal. I don't know what the best word is, but he was very clear about me. Our first Christmas together we had only been dating like two or three months and he got me a heart necklace with a ruby. Like he always was very I don't know. Ivan was very dedicated to me so the one thing I was sure of was that Ivan was always going to be faithful to me so that even now I don't at all believe that he had an affair, wanted to have an affair. I don't believe that. But at the same time it's hard to wrap my head around the websites because coming from the same person who was like so incredibly devoted to me.

THERAPIST: How do you propose to make it less confusing?

CLIENT: Well, he is putting it together with, 'I fantasized about you. I wanted this with you. But I didn't feel like I deserved to even ask you or approach you.' And I knew why we weren't having sex but I didn't feel like I could change that. I didn't even feel like I could talk about it I was so ashamed of what I did. So it's hard because it seems logical but it also seems clean is the word you used. And I just want to be cautious and there also is this tiny, tiny, tiny part of me that still has doubt about what like I guess I thought the websites were impossible. I thought the grad school thing was impossible. There are certain things that I thought like Ivan could never be capable of. There's this tiny, tiny part of me that wonders how do I know that he didn't want to have an affair? How do I know that it would never be possible?

THERAPIST: It's understandable that you would question that. Ramona, we've got to stop but I just want to say for the record that as much as it would be a relief if I had an answer for you I'm (unclear) wanting to give you an answer that would alleviate your anxiety and questions but I don't think even if I felt 100% in my own brain that this is not going to happen or going to happen it doesn't mean that that's what you think and what is really important for our work is to be helping you to be trusting you and your own sense of things. Believe in your mind. Find what you think about it. Because my thoughts are based on like other couples, right? And trends and themes, but we're talking about the specifics of your situation and what this means to you, what it feels like to you, what you know, what you sense, what you trust, your mistrust and that is what is going to make what matters for you. Do you know what I mean?

And that's why I think I'm saying the same thing with Dr. Farrow. Like share what you know. Even if she has an idea she could be wrong with her idea. And I think that you don't yet know what it's like could you say, 'I don't agree actually. Let me tell you more about what I'm thinking so that you understand why I think that's not correct. Not in rage but just in kind of matter of fact relating. You never got to have that kind of experience as a child in your family where that went well. So when your mother would say oh, I'm sorry, now that you explain it more I realize more what you're saying. And I can imagine that might be a little bit more space there for that to happen with Dr. Farrow as I would hope it could hope it would happen in here too because I might say something that is just dead wrong. It's happened before and you've come in and said in a calmer way to me, here's my thinking about it. Because your mind matters. You know a lot about what's happening. You are the one who knows at a kind of gut level intuition about the moment by moment process and that's what we have to get to know. So not next week.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: The week after are you are we on the 30th?

CLIENT: So what I mentioned was I so we have off on New Year's day so because of that I'm not totally, and I don't have that late meeting Tuesday night and I kind of doubt that I have that early meeting Thursday morning so I could put in extra hours throughout the week and that wouldn't be an issue, but I'm not sure. I can check with my boss.

THERAPIST: Okay. So by the time you get back with me I'll hold it for you.

CLIENT: Yeah, because it doesn't sound like that you maybe have other times that week?

THERAPIST: I probably will but I'm not they wouldn't be early afternoon or something like that.

CLIENT: Or early morning.

THERAPIST: I don't know yet. I might but I probably wouldn't know yet until -

CLIENT: Okay, I will ask. It's just a little harder to ask to come in late when I already have a day off that week. But thank you.

THERAPIST: I will e-mail you Friday.

CLIENT: Great. Thank you.

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