TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: We have half a session.

CLIENT: Yeah, no, I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: No, I'm sorry for you, I know that's frustrating. How are you? It's been a long time.

CLIENT: It has, it has.

THERAPIST: Where are you? What's on your mind?

CLIENT: I guess in the past couple weeks, things have been going fairly well. Going home was a lot, it was too much actually. It was stressful but I got through it.

THERAPIST: Home to your house.

CLIENT: And to Ivan's.

THERAPIST: And Ivan's, yeah. Wow.

CLIENT: Yeah, so.

THERAPIST: That's a breakthrough.

CLIENT: Yeah, it was. We were there for like literally 24 hours, but it was we saw over 30 family members.

THERAPIST: Oh, my goodness.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's the norm for them, but it's just like, it was too much, it was like way too much.

THERAPIST: Do you regret it? [00:01:02]

CLIENT: No. I think it was probably helpful, but it was just like -

THERAPIST: You don't have the strength.

CLIENT: way too much. His parents are (shaky breath) but, yeah.

THERAPIST: We can talk about that at some point, but I want to know where you are, was especially in mind for you.

CLIENT: Yeah, so that actually was what I wanted to, I guess talk about or digest or go over today, but then something happened last night and I'd like to talk about that if that's okay.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I really don't have that much time, but so I guess the point is things with Ivan have been going remarkably well. We've been having scheduled conversations about the stuff, as it were. He's been making dinner every night, he picks me up from the subway when I get home at night. He's largely doing his chores independently, like almost never am I asking him or reminding. Just a lot of improvements, and that's felt really good, and I felt taken care of and I felt safe and secure. We've also had, I mean, I had told you, I don't know when, but we made out a couple of times or whatever. So that's continued to some extent. It's not daily, it's not even multiple times a week maybe, but it's pretty regular and I would say every day, we're either holding hands or there's, you know, sometimes like a kiss in the morning or whatever. So, there's so that's like, it sounds ridiculous, but it's scary for me. That's a lot, that's the vulnerable thing.

THERAPIST: It is. It's not ridiculous. [00:02:47]

CLIENT: So, anyway, that's been happening and it's been I don't know, a very small struggle, but a little struggle, to like remind Ivan. Because sometimes we've made out, we've done more than like just kiss, and so to just remind him to ask about, like, am I okay with things, is it okay, because that still feels very important. I think ideally, we'd get to a place where it's more intuitive, like it was way back when, but right now it feels more safe and secure to just know that and I'm not really saying no, but like to just know that I have some control over what happens and that we're only going to do anything that we both agree to. Ivan has kind of indirectly tried to push that a few times, not in a horrible way, but like just not asking sometimes. So it's, I don't know, that's interesting. [00:03:55]

I don't know what to make of it but this morning, it was like two in the morning, I was just like half awake, and then I became more awake, because I felt Ivan put his hand like on my leg, and that was fine. I didn't expect him to wake me up to ask me to do that, that was okay. But he continued.

THERAPIST: He did wake you up?

CLIENT: No, no, no, I didn't expect that he would, and that was okay, I wasn't going to make a big deal about it or anything. But he, (chokes up) like it's so embarrassing, but it's similar to what happened before. So, he so, I don't want to I guess I want to back up. So, he put his hand on my leg, that was fine, like over my PJ pants, that was fine, and he put his hand like on my hip, that was fine. He put his hand even like here, like that was okay, and then he like, I felt him put just a couple of fingers, like just under the top of my PJ pants and that made me feel really nervous. And I was still half awake, and I think he was like trying to figure out if I was awake, and it was clear that he was not waking me up and did not say anything, and I felt like, you know, I should stop him, because I didn't know what was going on and I didn't want anything to happen. But on the other hand, part of me wanted to know if he was capable of doing it again, and if I could trust him, and in a moment, I felt so glad that I just let it go, because he did, he put a few fingers, like right under the top of my pants. But he pulled right back and did nothing and it was harmless and it was okay. It was unsettling, given our past, but it was okay and he didn't do anything wrong. [00:05:45]

THERAPIST: So maybe, had the past not happened, it wouldn't have felt so scary.

CLIENT: It would have been I mean to wake up to that, it would have been weird.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But right, had that never happened, it would have just been like what are you doing, I'm sleeping here.

THERAPIST: Ramona, do you have the feel of like, it's certainly bordering someone in a couple to roll over, put their arm around the other person in the couple, in the middle of the night. Maybe even themselves, half asleep, right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Just kind of being close, in an embrace. Did it feel like that or did it feel like he was inching toward, like sort of tempted or something?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: More like that?

CLIENT: Because what happened next was, he put his hand like back on my leg and I was like okay, it's okay. I got really nervous and I could like literally hear my heart pounding, because he then he put his fingers back under the top of my pants again and moved closer and closer. He went further than he should have and not nearly as far as he did before when he assaulted me, but it was definitely not harmless.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:06:49]

CLIENT: And I just like got worked up and I so I was like, "You know, I'm awake." He's like, "No, I didn't," and so we turned on the lights and we talked for like a couple of hours or so, and Ivan actually started, like he was almost like hyperventilating. He's like, "I am so sorry." (sighs) And for me, I was like so bewildered and so because what he did was very, very borderline, he couldn't have pushed it any further. But it's still a little I know now, I'm still processing it, and I was obviously like half awake, but I'm like still trying to figure out if it's the same thing, if it's he caught himself and wouldn't have gone further, if it's what it is exactly, because it's like so I told him I almost like didn't want to even tell you, I almost didn't want to even acknowledge that it happened, because things have been going really well. We're making serious progress and it's been very, very hopeful. And I've come to not only feel safe with Ivan in the bed, but to be like are you coming to bed? Like, snuggling up together and it's nice and it feels really, really great. And so, it just feels like it feels bizarre and it feels almost like I guess it did the first time it happened, because it's like where does this come from? [00:08:20]

THERAPIST: How are you feeling about this?

CLIENT: Scared.

THERAPIST: You seem disconnected, like you're telling me a story, without feelings about what you're trying to tell.

CLIENT: No, I'm trying to like sterilize it a little bit and keep it together, because I really need to be together at work today and I can't (sighs) That, and I'm trying to figure out how to really respond. I told Ivan, you know, how I was scared, I was worried, I didn't know what to make of it, I didn't know. Like I said, what he did was borderline but you know, like would you have gone further had I not spoken up at that moment? Would this have been exactly the same, has nothing changed? Or is it, you know, similar but like a temptation, but he was stopping and wasn't going to do anything? I just, it's so, I don't know how to react and what I really don't want to do is react as if it is the same, if it's not, and I don't want to discredit all the efforts that he's made. But I also don't, I don't know, it's not okay.

THERAPIST: It's really not okay. And even if it's sounds good to know, that there is ambivalence in him, even feel out of his mind to decide he wanted to, who knows what would have happened next. He certainly was mixed about it. We don't know if the first time he was mixed about it too. He may have been exactly like that. But that's as real as all the changes that have occurred too. So it's sort of, what he wanted to do. How do you integrate that. You know in a way, this is where we talked a while back, about the fact of the matter is, there's going to be something he does, probably some small things and probably on occasion, big things, that are a part of his working on this, because it can't be all better yet. [00:10:32]

CLIENT: And that occurred to me, if this was like a version of the time he lied to me about putting conversations on the whiteboard, like such a little thing.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: If it's a version of that, like working on that but not quite there yet. And it was bizarre to me too, because we had one of our scheduled conversations actually like pretty close to going to bed, and part of what I said was, like that I felt good about all the efforts we were making and that there was some physical contact along with it, because that's obviously important to Ivan, and that it was in steps, and I told him that in order to go further or for us to have sex again, like things like that. You know, that the conversations were really important to me and I needed to continue to feel safe and like, those things weren't going to happen again, because not only was it a betrayal, but his betrayals were around things kind of related to sex.

THERAPIST: Yeah, sure, sure.

CLIENT: And so it's like, it (sighs). So, yeah, and it's bizarre and Ivan said to me... I'm like why would you do that, why wouldn't you just ask me, because you've been consistently, like we've been consistently having physical contact, and even more than just like kissing and holding hands, and you haven't been rejected and it's been a positive experience for both of us. So, you know, why, if that's happening during the day when we're both awake, why would it be any different? Why wouldn't you just wake me up? And he said that he felt like he (sighs), like he knew that it was wrong and he was sorry, but that he also felt that behind it was not wanting to disappoint me and that sometimes he feels like even if I'm agreeing to it, physical contact, I'm not really, that he still feels like he's coercing me, that he still feels like he doesn't deserve to ask, that he shouldn't be asking, that it's wrong to ask. And he's like, so instead of doing something wrong, like that it might be wrong to talk about it or ask about it, he's like I made it something really evil. And to me it sounded like coming back to his own, like he hurts himself or labels himself as this terrible person. [00:12:49]

THERAPIST: It feels more obviously self-punitive, the act, almost.

CLIENT: And I don't understand.

THERAPIST: But I even was hearing, if the fact that you had this conversation, you're pretty bluntly, honestly talking with each other about what would need to happen in order to have mutual, consensual sex, and that you're heading there, and it's been (inaudible). And that's the night where this happens? It feels so much like sort of undoing something and punishing himself for something, maybe his own fear.

CLIENT: It's bizarre because we did just talk about it and so if anything, I guess I would have felt like Ivan would have been more confident to say, glad you brought up more physical contact, I really want this and I like...

THERAPIST: And yet there's something in him that is much it's so self-punishing, self-flagellating, right? So, there may be something happened about his own conflict, about his own desire and pleasure being evil, that he thinks that too, and so he had to sort of move it back to being a one hundred percent, clearly very bad thing, he's doing something really bad. [00:14:05]

CLIENT: Which is pretty much what he said, but it's kind of I don't know. I guess, if I could try to see from his perspective, how he would feel pretty terrible about bringing up physical contact, because so many of the trails were directly, indirectly about sex, or you know, something related. So, there would be a lot of guilt and shame and it would, I don't know. But at the same time, I don't feel like I've ever told him it was wrong of him to want physical contact with me, or intimacy, or sex or anything like that.

THERAPIST: This is the part, Ramona, and I think it has very little to do with you at all. It sort of doesn't matter what you could say. You could even say to him, I'm so excited for it, I want to do it tomorrow night, and I actually think the same thing could happen inside him. In other words, it's his own stuff about even sexual his own feeling, I mean sin is probably too specific a word, but that there's a lot of feeling he has about his inner badness, that I think he would be carrying around to any relationship, any person, by himself even. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: I do but I also, it's still a little bizarre, because in the past number of weeks, when Ivan has made all these improvements at home, I feel like he's also I mean, he started taking his antidepressant, he's more consistently, I think, taking his ADHD medication. So, I haven't seen him crying or feeling sorry for himself or talking about how terrible he is. [00:15:41]

THERAPIST: Or his self-flagellating.

CLIENT: Or like being really hard on himself when he messes things up, because he has, and he hasn't like withdrawn and really shut down.

THERAPIST: Oh, that's fantastic.

CLIENT: So it's like, it seems like he's made a lot of progress there and that's great. So I just, I'm not quite sure, and even I felt like our conversation was pretty good and he's like yeah, I went to bed so hopeful and excited, and I just kept lying there thinking about, you talked about next steps, and that it's a long road but that we have a lot of hope for it, he's like, and I just wanted to be really close to you. And he said he didn't want to have sex, he just wanted some kind of physical intimacy.

THERAPIST: So that makes it sound a little bit more that rather than making it evil, he just wanted to be closer to you and couldn't stop. Do you know what I mean, like wasn't respectful, and he wanted that so badly that he was just crossing the line again about respecting your boundaries.

CLIENT: But again, I (sounds frustrated). I'm still trying to take it all in and it just happened this morning, I've been up half the morning. I don't understand why he wouldn't just wake me up.

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:16:50]

CLIENT: Unless it's the, I accused him, like it feels cowardly, it feels like you would rather not ask, and not risk me rejecting you. And he says it's not that, but it's just, it's hard to take in and I just want to be really careful with how I respond to it, because I really, you know, when I acknowledge that this isn't okay, where we're at, anyway, it's not okay.

THERAPIST: Ramona, it's not okay. It's violating your body. I actually don't think it's on the same level as the whiteboard. This is a violation of your physical body, and it's not ever allowed by another person.

CLIENT: No, I don't, I don't mean like that. I mean like, if Ivan had never done that, it would be different if in the middle of the night, he tried to initiate something and tried to wake me up, initiating. I guess that could be okay with a married couple. [00:17:55]

THERAPIST: Yeah. Again, if what's happening is I'm trying to initiate something sexual and I really want to be with you and I want you to be with me, that's different than I'm trying to initiate something sexual with your body and I want to make sure you don't wake up when it happens. Do you see what I mean?

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: I know, and maybe this is it's almost impossible to tell in a way, but that's a very, very, very important difference. One is a kind of rape, the other one is totally ordinary. Does that make sense? So, if you're picking up on the feeling that he was wanting you not to know, that's the part that's extremely, extremely important to know, that it's not okay. You know?

CLIENT: So, it was again, like I haven't wrapped my head around it exactly, but he didn't he didn't exactly touch me. He came exceptionally close. He said to me, one of the first thing he started to say when we started talking about it was I knew that I needed to tell you in the morning, exactly what had happened. And I want to believe that that's true. I want to believe that if, unfortunately I had like slept through it and he had touched me, like started to touch me and stopped, like that he would have said something. I don't know. I don't know if that's like the truth and he now knows that he needs to be straightforward about that, or if it was as simple as he feels completely horrible and needs to come up with an apology that's going to put us back on track. I don't want to accuse him of that if it's unfair, but um... [00:19:38]

THERAPIST: Even if he did want to tell you, was intending to tell you, that's really important, that's sort of him getting right back on track, in the forward movement. But it also is an indicator that it was something that was intended to be kept a secret. Do you know what I mean? It's not that he was just trying to initiate sex.

CLIENT: No, and he's very clear that he wasn't trying to initiate sex. He just says, I wanted to touch you, I wanted to be close to you. I wanted just some kind of he said the intent was not even for me to become aroused or excited. He's like, I just wanted to be close.

THERAPIST: I don't know what that means, and that may be something to sort through in couple's therapy, like what exactly does it mean. Close is not a person is lying there dead asleep and you're fondling their body. That's actually not close at all. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: No, it's very it's actually probably the most distant thing you could do.

THERAPIST: Distancing, yeah.

CLIENT: It's hard to I don't really get it, but when he says, like I don't want to disappoint you and I feel like even when you're agreeing to things, maybe you're not. Maybe you wouldn't ever want to like, maybe you would never want me, I could never deserve to ask. So, instead of making it something that's probably wrong to ask for, I make it something completely evil. It sounds bizarre, and he's like, I don't think like this most of the time, this isn't where my mind has been. [00:20:58]

THERAPIST: Maybe the forward progress is he's being (inaudible). That's huge, this two-hour conversation. He's really working on trying to find and say that he hurt himself, about what this is all about. It does sound like he's terrified of trying to move forward, because maybe he's going to get rejected, he's going to get hurt, you don't love him, you don't want his body, you don't want that kind of physical attachment with him, and he's sort of reverted back. I mean, I know it sounds strange, but it really can happen when people are making changes, that sometimes a big leap forward, when you're really doing something differently, can be terrifying. It can lead to a kind of momentary regression back to old behavior. You know the expression, two steps forward, one step back. It sounds like that. It actually has been more than two steps forward. It's been many, many giant leaps forward together. I'm sure, I don't know the half of all the details about what's been changing, but you know, when I last saw you, you were furious at him again, after a couple's session. You had really had it and the fact that you're at this place, where you're talking about so much more forward momentum, it sounds like something got very scared in him so he reverted. And that doesn't make the reversion okay at all, you know, that's I think one thing you want to be. You're trying to balance saying, I have openness to the idea that no one changes in a linear fashion, it's just a fantasy that you could just go forward, forward, forward. It doesn't happen that way, no change happens that way. So you get that and yet, you also want to be really, really, really clear that this cannot happen again. It's even different, Ramona, than him trying to come on to you when you're awake, because then you still have even if he hasn't asked you and that's when your agreement, let's say he violates that agreement and he doesn't ask, and he sort of just starts with the physical. You're still conscious and you can say yes or no.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. [00:23:01]

THERAPIST: Right? When you're asleep, all the decision making power is taken away from you, so it's that much more of a violation. I think even between any couple, if it isn't that the other partner wakes up pretty quickly and can indicate, even if it's physically, I'm into this or I'm not, it's a violation. So, you're trying to hold both, that this is like you get that this is part of the past, but this particular thing really, really cannot happen again.

CLIENT: That's the I um, like I say I want to react appropriately, so part of me thinks maybe it's not the end of the world. It's not okay.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: But maybe it's similar, that he's still trying to make the change and it's not quite there yet. And he did not do what he did the last time, it's not the same, but the intent or like the thought process or just, with the history, like not waking me up, that's what's disturbing to me. But on the other hand, I don't want to be that person. I don't want to allow Ivan to do this over and over and over and then consistently beat my head against a brick wall and be like why doesn't this feel good. [00:24:21]

THERAPIST: And that's a little bit and maybe I'm hearing this because you're disconnected from it, going to work right now, but it feels a little bit like the emotional part of being furious at this act is a little bit missing right now. So I think that is the task, is how do you find one hundred percent clarity that this particular thing is not acceptable, and you're very mad that it happened again, and that that exists alongside being thrilled at all the changes he's making. And you could even say, I feel this about this act, but it doesn't undo these other feelings, they're still there. In fact, those are the majority of what my feelings are. You know, how do you have that whole reaction, because it's really important that you not lose sight of being clear with him at this point, and learning from it. As you did sum up, I think the more you can bring this into couple's therapy and really try to get to know maybe more about what's inside of this experience, like what is he afraid of that meant that he had to bring that underground. Like what may be a little bit more of it, is it a rejection, how can I help you even, figure a way of us finding language together so that he doesn't have to be so scared.

CLIENT: I know.

THERAPIST: I have five minutes.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: It's good to see you.

CLIENT: Thank you for giving me another time.

THERAPIST: Sure, sure. Ten o'clock next Monday?

CLIENT: I'm going to try. This past Monday, new employees started, to work specifically for me, specifically for this project that's due February 1st. So that's why there was no way I could not be there. But I'm hoping, I'm really hoping that it's okay, because I can be there like three hours late. I'm hoping that it can. So, can I e-mail you?

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: I need to check with my boss.

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