TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: So you're all set with the insurance then?

CLIENT: Oh, yes.

THERAPIST: Yes, okay. I might need the -

CLIENT: No, you do need the card, I'm sorry. I'll bring that next time. You can't bill anything yet, just because I haven't met my deductible yet, but I'll bring it next time.

THERAPIST: I still should submit those two sessions though, because they won't honor your having met the deductible then?

CLIENT: They won't, no.

THERAPIST: Having met the deductible then. Does that make sense?

CLIENT: Yes. I have the card. Do you want me to just give you the card?

THERAPIST: Sure, that works. We can do a quick photocopy. And then after that, we're doing 40?

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. And like I said, after I paid $1,000 out of pocket for co-pays and co-insurance, they'll start paying a hundred percent of every single time.

THERAPIST: Yes, which is fantastic. And I got your e-mail. I'm sorry I didn't have a chance to respond -

CLIENT: No, that's okay. [00:01:30]

THERAPIST: over the weekend but we're so we're all set for this time for the rest of this month, as far as you know.

CLIENT: Well, I'd ask if you were open on Martin Luther King Jr. day.

THERAPIST: I am.

CLIENT: Oh, okay, then that's fine, because it's a hospital holiday.

THERAPIST: Okay. I'll be here.

CLIENT: Oh, that's really great. And then next one, I'm not a hundred percent, because the deadline is like the next week, but hopefully.

THERAPIST: So that's the last one that's in question. Do you think you'll be okay after that?

CLIENT: Yeah, it should be, it should be, it's just that the deadline is February 1st, so I'm working like, I worked 60 hours this last week and I'll continue that pattern. So, yeah.

THERAPIST: Ramona, if there were ever a slightly earlier time on Monday, would that be preferable?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: I'm sort of assuming that's preferable.

CLIENT: Yes, it would, simply because I had missed last -

THERAPIST: Yes, I figured as much. There's a small chance I might be able to switch things around for the 9:10 time, so maybe you can come a little earlier.

CLIENT: It's not sorry, go ahead.

THERAPIST: Go ahead. [00:02:30]

CLIENT: I was just going to say, it's not actually a huge deal usually, because I have to stay later on Tuesdays and I have to come in early on Thursdays, and because I'm salaried, they prefer that I offset the hours, and it was perfect. Nobody schedules meetings for Monday morning, so it's like the perfect time actually, coincidentally. So, I wouldn't that's not an issue for me.

THERAPIST: Okay, it's not.

CLIENT: No, no, no, it's really strictly just this month, at least that's what I've been told.

THERAPIST: So would you, because after this month you assume, just ten?

CLIENT: That should be fine, yes, it really should.

THERAPIST: You wouldn't prefer to move to 9:10 anyway.

CLIENT: I don't think it's going to end up making I would end up offsetting those hours another time.

THERAPIST: So, how are you? How are things?

CLIENT: They're going. I did do some journaling over the weekend, because I felt super anxious, and so that helped at least. That evening, I sat down and just wrote for a while. That helps in the moment, so that was good. I had another scheduled one of our scheduled conversations with Ivan yesterday, and I guess that helps a little bit. I'm noticing, I'm kind of reaching a point at which, like just with what's going on with work and what's been going on with Ivan. I have no more room for like extra disasters or extra stress. [00:03:52]

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Do you have a sense about, when you say you started feeling so anxious that you needed to journal, what was going on inside? How do you locate what the anxiety was about?

CLIENT: Oh, I mean that's always pretty clear, because I'm having basic thoughts and I'm so, Saturday, towards the evening, my sister came over and we were hanging out, and we just had the TV on, and I realized, like I couldn't watch it, like I realized, I'm pulling at my hair, I'm unable to fully sit still. I'm just like worked up about it. And I'm also noticing little things that normally wouldn't stress me out, or like I can't, I can't do it. But I'm never too much in question about what's it about, because it's very clear.

THERAPIST: What's very clear then, this time?

CLIENT: It's about the most recent, I don't know what the right label is, because it's maybe different, but what happened early Tuesday morning.

THERAPIST: Yes, that we talked about.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. It's just a lot of buildup and it didn't help that that day as well, Ivan came home and said, "Oh, my boss said if I don't correct this she'll write me up for insubordination, which is grounds for termination, and by the way, I accidentally backed into the neighbor's car and by the way..." He had a whole day off on Thursday he's like, "No, I didn't get anything done, like I just slept all day, I had a headache." And I'm just feeling within myself, that if things were really not stressful at work and he hadn't gotten in trouble at his work, and like none of the other stuff had happened, what happened early Tuesday morning would still be too much. And now it's like really too much and I'm feeling kind of in that place where I felt before, where I feel like I'm almost like screaming at the top of my lungs, like, "This is too much!" No more, I can't handle any more, and it doesn't really matter. So, I'm very clear on what the anxiety is about.

THERAPIST: Did it help to journal? [00:05:57]

CLIENT: It did, it really did.

THERAPIST: And how do you think, just getting your thoughts on paper?

CLIENT: Yeah, and it helped... A lot of times, I find the thoughts to not be circular, but they keep going through my head, and to get them down on paper makes it stop a little bit and lets me continue, as opposed to going back over and over.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: And it kind of validates it a little bit, especially given around this circumstance, I haven't told anyone, because I'm like kind of back to where I was in the beginning, except some of those people I told, like oh yeah, things are getting better, and essentially told, like you don't need to worry so much or you don't need to... And now, I feel like to go back and tell them something similar happened again, it's like too much. Too much for me to go through, too much to put them through.

THERAPIST: And who are you thinking of, your sister and your parents?

CLIENT: My sister and my parents, yeah, predominantly, or even like I told two close friends in a very, very general pass, like what had happened. And it's too difficult to explain, because even putting the label of assault on it, I don't know if that's really accurate for what happened. There's no way to say, like it's not easy to explain. [00:07:15]

THERAPIST: Yeah. It's complicated enough for you and Ivan to understanding yourselves talking about it in thorough detail together, let alone explaining it to someone else.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: So you're still confused yourself. You know, I wonder, Ramona, if it sets off both rage at him and a kind of anxiety that is about feeling so angry. You want this relationship to work very badly, many, many parts of you want this to work. You know, the part that you said I'm afraid I might just take him back too quickly and sort of try to forget what happened, that part is terrified of thinking something like this happens. What do I do with this, that this actually happened. Again, it's a subtler form, but it still kind of happens. How do you integrate it? You almost wish it weren't, so that it would be more straightforward right now, and it's anxiety provoking to try to integrate that he did this thing that really, really is not okay. [00:08:27]

CLIENT: And it's hard to piece out. I don't know, I want to accept all the efforts he has made, and really recognize them and I want to take them in, and I was thinking that we were moving towards them, you know doubling and redoubling, and really moving forward towards that. And so it's really hard. I don't want to suppress this or not tell people or not get too upset or not label it. Because I'm so desperate to embrace all the other stuff, and kind of not deal with this, because I think at some point it's almost like a coping mechanism, like you have to get through and in order to get through, it might not be sustainable to cry about it regularly, or talk about it regularly, or be angry about it even. It might only be sustainable to say I'm upset about it and then day to day, not acknowledge it very much. And I'm worried that I might be forced into that position, because I'm feeling like I've reached kind of the breaking point with the amount of stress. So, like I couldn't get upset and say, well if your boss is really telling you this, that's not okay. And I couldn't get upset and be like, and you still haven't fixed the car. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:09:42]

CLIENT: There's just not room to deal with it in the way that would be ideal maybe, and I'm almost afraid to have more conversations with him about it because, like I really want to know, but I almost don't want to know, because I might not be able to handle what's really happening.

THERAPIST: It's funny, it's another way of thinking about your anxiety right now is anxiety can be sort of a signal that there's a lot of affect inside you, right? Like, if you were to let yourself really think and feel about this or about the car or about what his boss said to him, you would have a lot of feelings. Some anxiety, a lot of anger, feelings that would feel like powerfully, almost disregulating right now, and that you don't feel like there's space right now to go there in your life, especially give, my guess is, how busy you've been at work.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: This is an unusually stressful, busy period right now, which will subside, is that right, a little bit?

CLIENT: It should. It should in like three more weeks.

THERAPIST: You won't have to stay for 60 hours.

CLIENT: Yeah, no, it should in like three more weeks. [00:10:44]

THERAPIST: Or else, they've got to pay you for more work.

CLIENT: Yeah, and personally, I might not get paid for any of that. I just realized even at work, they hired a couple of temps to work on some of the administrative stuff for the project and one of them was just she wasn't following through and I got really frustrated with her and at one point, I just felt within myself, like I was either going to be angry or cry. And I realized, I was genuinely upset about what she wasn't doing, because it was very simple, but it was mostly just like that tipping point where I was like, I cannot handle one more like... and by the way, this isn't going to work and I just can't. I just can't right now.

My sister and I were indecisive over what to do for dinner Saturday night. I couldn't handle it, like it was ridiculous. I was just like, I don't care, I will do whatever you like. I can't make any decisions, I can't (sighs) it's ridiculous but that's where it's at right now.

THERAPIST: It's okay though too. You know, I think even just letting yourself kind of know that that's where things are, is really healthy, especially if you think there's some room three weeks for now, for a little bit more space to open up again. It's not the end of the world if you talk to your sister and say, can you please decide because I can't handle another decision. You know? That's actually good, turning to another person for help in taking care of you right now, when your burden is so high. But I wonder if it feels even here, like to feel all the feelings you're feeling, would unleash something. [00:12:19]

CLIENT: Exactly, like there isn't time for that, there isn't room for that. There's frankly, almost no point to it because I understand that in reality there is a lot of point to it, but it doesn't feel like there is because I've done this with Ivan. I've shown him all the feelings, I think, and we're still here, like it's still happening. So, what is really the point? In some sense, it's just like beating my head against a brick wall.

THERAPIST: So that's part of the feeling that it's happening again, wait, how could we do this again after everything I've described to you about how I felt about it.

CLIENT: And it -

THERAPIST: Why even have all those conversations if you go on this way.

CLIENT: It's just, it's too much. What I keep coming back to in my head, a simple explanation, is it's too much. I felt like a lot of the lies and a lot of the stuff that Ivan, I would say like almost put me through, like his decisions that were not joint decisions.

THERAPIST: Yes, yes. [00:13:23]

CLIENT: That it was above and beyond a typical, like what you would expect for typical marital problems. I understand that these things, that these traumas happen in other relationships, but it's a lot more than I had any right to expect and it just feels like on top of all of those, this, it's just like (sighs) it's not even the straw that broke the camel's back, it's like way more than that. It's just, it's too much and it's too much and I keep saying that and it's like there's nothing I can do to say it loud enough or clear enough to make it stop.

THERAPIST: Too much. It's almost too much, too much more.

CLIENT: It's like asking it's asking too much, it's expecting too much.

THERAPIST: Of you?

CLIENT: Yes. It's not giving enough and taking way too much. It's asking me to I mean, he's not literally asking me every week, but asking me to go to couple's counseling and asking me to have these conversations with him, asking me to give him a second chance, to let him live in the apartment, sleep in the bed, he was. And then to not be giving enough. And I'm not saying that he was and has been, like making significant efforts, and this doesn't erase all of that, but it's not enough. [00:14:44]

THERAPIST: Well, what's funny about it, there's something strange about the fact that it's like, in the other, in some ways less important areas, even though they're still really important for day to day living, he's made these tremendous strides. So, like, doing the laundry or being accountable for having a conversation. But then in the area that in a way, it's like it's only one data point, but it's a really, really, really big important one as far as betrayals are concerned. You'd much rather the slip that he had was that he forget to put the laundry in, but then that he's violating your body and yourself again in that. It's a really, really big mistake. It's not just a little thing that you're working on, so it's sort of, I think that's part of what's too much, like how do you equate that he's made, in the subtler areas, these massive important changes, but then this big area, it happens again. Like how do you even put those together, it doesn't feel possible, I can imagine. [00:15:45]

CLIENT: It's so confusing. I still feel kind of stuck in disbelief and kind of stuck in like what to make of it. And Dr. [Farrow?] said you don't want to throw the baby out with the bathwater and I thought, maybe that's I don't know how I feel about thinking of it that way, because on the one hand, these changes that he's made are indicative of more than just doing laundry or taking out the trash. Like he's finally being more of an equal partner in the relationship. He's being responsible, reliable, trustworthy, like they're indicative of, I think bigger things, that it's something to build on.

THERAPIST: Right. Actually being a partner with you.

CLIENT: Exactly. So I'm not just excited that there are clean clothes. I'm excited that like -

THERAPIST: He's showing initiative.

CLIENT: And I feel a lot more respect for him when he's doing it, and it feels really, really good. I'm really, really safe, but obviously it feels really unsafe to know that even if he promises me that this is never going to happen again, it still can. So at what point, I mean, at what point is it even worthwhile to have the conversations, if I can't believe a word that comes out of his mouth. (sighs) I did something that I wrote in my journal, which I wrote it on Saturday, so I didn't think there was a point to e-mail it to you, because obviously, you wouldn't have had time to look at it, but it was striking to me when I asked him at one point, "What has happened exactly?" Because for so many months, I've really felt like I tried everything under the sun, to work with him, to get to the efforts that he's been making. And all of a sudden, when he moves out, and then when he moves back in, they are consistent. I mean almost never is he like not like I wouldn't know what to do at this point, kind of, if I came home and he had made no type of dinner or no effort or no plan for dinner. Like it's really that dramatic of a change and I'm like, how is that possible, when I'm asking you for months and months and you don't. Is it just a refusal? Is it just... Because there were a lot of times when I debated if it was refusal or if it was simply that with, you know, finally figuring out that the had the ADHD and working or, you know, the depression, that those things obviously play a role in your day to day function. And he said it wasn't that I said something like it feels like you started to love me, when you started doing all those things, I felt like you started showing me. And he's like, it wasn't that I never loved you. It was that all the shame and the guilt and the depression, they overshadowed me being able to ever show you. And that feels, I don't know, that I guess that could be valid? But then, if he's alleviating so much of that, which I understand is a huge thing and not something you can do in one day, why would something like this happen? [00:18:42]

THERAPIST: Why would he have a relapse in a way, in the severity.

CLIENT: So severely, yeah, if he's not feeling so much shame and so much guilt and so much...

THERAPIST: Remember we talked about the fact that this happened right on the heels of you both feeling actually quite intimate, and even physically close with each other, talking about getting closer, that I can imagine in Ivan, because of other things he's had so much guilt and shame about, that even, as much as he's saying he wants that, there could be a part of him that's terribly ashamed and feels guilty about wanting that, even with his own wife. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: No, and he's said that.

THERAPIST: That's actually not uncommon, yeah.

CLIENT: He has said that a lot and he has said that even when I have said, you know, that I'm agreeing to something, that he feels like I'm not and that he feels like it's wrong to even ask that, it's wrong to want that even, which is complicated because on the one hand, I've never said that there's anything wrong with it. But on the other hand, it would be impossible, I think, to pretend there hasn't been a huge negative association with physical intimacy, given the websites, given some of our experiences together. So it's not this like really good thing that he's just acted poorly around anymore. [00:20:09]

THERAPIST: Yes. And furthermore, Ramona, there may be something inside him about a sexual life and sexual orientation, and being a sexual person, that regardless, or before even any of that happened, he may have had conflict about. He may have still felt, at baseline, guilty and ashamed. That's not uncommon for people, especially when there's you know, he's grown up with a sense of there being sin and, you know, sex can get really complicated of an area of being intertwined in religion. It can. It doesn't have to but it can get to be an area of tremendous self-torture, that to want it is even a bad thing in some way. So, I guess I'm just saying, even his own psyche, having nothing to do with you, could be filled with conflict about wanting to do this with you.

CLIENT: But I have, I've seen that. Ivan's dad is a pastor and his dad has been very... Before we got married or pretty close to before we got married, Ivan and I, we did not have sex before we got married, and this wasn't something we discussed with our parents or consulted with. I mean, this was our personal decision and we were raised with that value, that it was that that was an important thing. And I don't know if Ivan's parents would have like shunned him had he had sex before marriage, but the point is, that was very clear, and his dad literally, his parents asked him before we got married, if it was difficult for us to wait. And like what an invasive, like inappropriate... So, I would say Ivan has definitely had that experience, but I would also own that I have definitely I have felt a lot of shame or a lot of... Before, before anything to do with Ivan, given that growing up, there was no discussion of sex, no acknowledgement of sex, until my dad had the affair, at which point sex was framed in a very graphic and very disgusting, repulsive, um, disgusting and repulsive way. [00:22:27]

THERAPIST: It was actually talked about, what happened?

CLIENT: Yes, oh yes. I mean, yes, very much.

THERAPIST: By your mom.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah, yeah. And so I wouldn't say that I came into the marriage, viewing it as something that is healthy and normal and good, and something like not to be ashamed of and not to feel uncomfortable about. And when Ivan says that he feels like sometimes when I have agreed to things, that he thinks I'm really not, I could understand where that comes from, because even now, with Ivan, if I am able to start thinking about it, which I'm not sure that I'm there yet, but if I'm able to start thinking about it as a healthy, normal thing. It's not shameful, not that it needs to be publicized, but not shameful, there's maybe a difference.

THERAPIST: A huge difference.

CLIENT: I do feel ashamed or guilty or a little bit... for having any type of physical contact with him, because it feels like I let him the explanations he's given for the websites and such are different from the way they present at first glance, and it's hard to know which is which, which is the truth. But after he's done all of that, to allow him to have physical contact with me or to allow myself to have physical contact with him, or to want that, it feels unsafe. It feels dumb. It feels like I am the doormat. It feels like I am the wife whose husband, you know, who did those things and it may or may not be what it looked like, and still, in a matter of months later, was kissing him and was setting herself up to... (sighs) It's hard. [00:24:18]

THERAPIST: It is hard and in a way you're both potentially then, sharing this feeling right now, that you don't sort of deserve to have sex with each other, like how could that happen after what he's done. You could be certain on the one hand, thinking okay, yeah, this is the next step. But on the other hand, really still feeling unsafe about it or feeling like it means you're a doormat if you do it. And of course at some level he's got to be picking that up in you and potentially then feeling himself, regardless of you, about his own wanting to do this with you. How do I deserve this with her after what I've done. He's constantly self-chastising with how bad he is, so that for both of you right now, it's this sort of, it's this bad thing to do. How can you both, like how can this be good in a way, in your marriage. There's no way right now for it to be good. So that alone could create another sort of stuck scenario where he turns back to some secret way, because the above ground way feels like it's bad, you both feel it's bad. Do you know what I'm saying? [00:25:29]

CLIENT: I do, except I guess I feel still disoriented by what he did, because I would maybe feel some of I wouldn't say I don't feel like I deserve to have physical contact with Ivan, but I would feel maybe some of the similar like it would be hard to move forward with that. But I would never think of doing what he did.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: And when he talks about what he did, even last night, he just says, you know, I just really wanted to be close to you and I just really wanted... He also had said something in our couple's session, to the extent of touch is equal and he wants to be equal with me and he wants he doesn't feel like he deserves to approach me. He feels like there's no way for me to even ever want that. I don't know, it's very confusing and you say that some couples, it's not uncommon for people to have the shame or the guilt. Do they act out this way? [00:26:31]

THERAPIST: No, that's, I think a big difference. That's where I said, you heard me say, he's saying to you this cannot happen. It's very different. You wouldn't say to a partner, it can't happen, that you feel shame and guilt, right?

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Like that's so different, like we'll work on that, let's talk about it together. How could we make this more comfortable together? But the action. What he's not, it sounds like, he's not adding up yet, that the action he did really had was sort of a violence against it being equal.

CLIENT: Which is what is confusing and disturbing, and I almost didn't want to go down the road of conversation further, because he said he feels like when we sit down and talk about our days, that he doesn't feel equal, that he feels like he has very little to add, or what his, you know, whatever he does at Starbucks is pretty standard every day, and he thinks that I always have something new to talk about and he doesn't feel equal. But he thinks that touch is equal and I said then, are you almost asserting, like not being equal but almost being superior, because I'm asleep? And he said no, and that wasn't what he meant, but it terrified me obviously, to think of that, because that frames it in a very violent, very aggressive, controlling way. [00:27:54]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. I mean, one of the things he's sharing is that he's not feeling like you're equal a lot of the time. Sort of in the normal, day to day living right now, you are coming home and sharing this movement into a higher education based job, and more and more responsibility and more and more new endeavors, and he's sort of feeling where am I, next to you. And then I can also imagine that he enacts this thing again, which makes him feel really bad in a way, like he is beneath you, because it's a really not okay thing to do, and in some ways it leaves him feeling like yeah, there I go again, and probably just you're superior. Do you know what I mean? Or if anything, it's at least, this is another, you know. In extreme examples of abuse, that the idea of doing something in a context where you know someone, like I can't feel powerless here. Like if you're asleep, you can't say no, but in some ways, it seems a little crazy to say it like this, but it's a protected space psychologically, because he can't get rejected. [00:29:10]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Do you know what I mean? That doesn't make it okay, but if we're trying to understand what the dynamics are behind him trying to move to a space where at least he doesn't have to deal with feeling ashamed in your eyes, because your eyes aren't there.

CLIENT: So what does that mean? So, I don't know how to view what he did then. I don't know if that makes it purely abusive and this is, like Ivan is abusive, Ivan is an abuser, or is it my husband wants to be really close to me and is really ashamed and depressed? I have no idea.

THERAPIST: I wouldn't say it's either of those extremes. I think he's enacting tremendous shame in a way that is not okay, and he probably isn't even aware in the moment, it's hurting you. Do you know what I mean? He can probably get so locked in his own head, that he's just thinking about this safe place that I'm sure he wants to feel close to you. He probably is longing for physical intimacy, with you, his wife, but he's not thinking about, actually, if I do it in this way, it's really destructive to her and to me and to our marriage. I can't do that anymore, I've got to do this the above ground way. The above ground way means dealing with the shame all the time, even in having a sexually intimate contact, he's going to have shame. So, it's like the easier path, do you know what I mean? And this is where, you know again, where I say it's not okay, it's not like saying I have shame, is that he can't do that, it's a violence against you, Ramona. I think that's it feels very clear. But I also don't think the basis of it is that he's a violent, horrible person. Do you know what I mean? [00:31:05]

CLIENT: No, and I'm not saying that all spouses who become abusive towards theirs, are horrible, violent people, but they're still maybe abusive. And if it's a pattern, I don't know if couple's counseling, you know, or like I'm not sure if there's a safe way to I don't know. I really have no clue how to react to this or what it really is. It is different from what he did before and he barely touched me, and I don't know if that makes a difference, if him stopping himself makes a difference, or struggling with it makes a difference. His reaction to it was different, but I don't all I know is like I can't do this anymore and I can't (deep breath, sighs) have him sleep on the couch for a while and then eventually move back to the bed and then things go well again, and then this happens again. Like I can't set myself up for that.

THERAPIST: You're saying your trust has really been shattered by this.

CLIENT: It just, it doesn't really make sense to me because if Ivan is saying, you know, my shame and my guilt and all these other things are really... They've been alleviated to a point where I'm able to do these things with confidence and feel good about myself in making these efforts. And, we're having physical contact and he's able to, you know, approach me about that during the day. So, like why? Even if he felt like I wasn't really agreeing, I could understand how that could be part of the rationale, but that he feels so horrible about it, and then he almost does something to make it really horrible. But, I don't know. [00:32:51]

THERAPIST: You want to say to him, after all the progress we've had, why would you want to do this again?

CLIENT: And I don't know how severe how much of this undoes that or how much this damages that. It also feels frustrating, because I felt like we were moving towards a place. I mean, we haven't had sex for, I don't know, seven months about. That's a long time and I'm sure it's different for a man as well, but I thought we were maybe moving towards a place where we could approach that and that could be a healthy thing. And now it feels like are we back, like just revisiting that in seven more months? It just feels kind of crazy.

THERAPIST: Is he back on the couch? What happened that -

CLIENT: He's sleeping on the couch.

THERAPIST: Did you talk about that in couple's therapy directly?

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. And after it happened, he didn't I mean there was no discussion, he just moved to the couch. He didn't he knew that that was... [00:33:58]

THERAPIST: It's hard naming... You know, I hear you wanting, like if only there were the right answer about how to respond to this, and I think there isn't, Ramona. It's about turning inside yourself and trying to figure out what you were feeling and what you're feeling. Including the loving feelings, the feelings of momentum, including the feelings of betrayal again. What feels right, I think will take some time. You're trying to incorporate these very disparate sides of him, like how do you bring these two together. Or what do you even do with, what if this is just one of the things Ivan was going to do. You know, you've heard me say to you, just keep in mind, that as you're taking him back, there are going to be bumps in the road. There are going to be some small bumps and there will probably be some big bumps again, that if any person's change, it's not linear.

CLIENT: But is that what this is? [00:34:58]

THERAPIST: I don't know, I mean that's what you're trying to take in. Is this exactly the same thing that happened, so that it's going to happen six months from now and a year from now and two years from now, or is there enough different about this, that you can see, it was a slip back into an old behavior for him. But it's getting handled differently, there's a context, there are words for it that wouldn't have been there before, that you trust. You know, I think that's also a part. You sort of feel this, how do I trust even the words since that last time now, if you said that this won't happen. How are you supposed to trust that it won't happen this time? You must be really, really angry, Ramona.

CLIENT: I am, especially because it feels so more than anything, it feels cruel, because even now, like I'll come home and Ivan wants to talk about our day and he wants to eat dinner. I mean, if I stay until eight or nine at work, he picks me up and it's so nice, and he wants to talk and I want to talk, like I wanted all of this to continue. [00:36:11]

THERAPIST: Yes, of course.

CLIENT: And it doesn't it feels like it was, you know, just ripped out from under me, and it feels cruel, because like I want to do that, but I don't want him to think that it's okay.

THERAPIST: Yeah. What was your sex life like before any of this happened? Was it comfortable?

CLIENT: No. So, I don't know how much I've I don't know how much we've talked about that.

THERAPIST: Not too much.

CLIENT: It was, I guess uncomfortable would be the way to describe it, and I've always been very self-conscious, and it's never been it's still like never really been framed to me as a healthy, wonderful, like in fact, until I read that in that book, (inaudible), that like it's a normal, healthy need, and that men and women respond, like act around it a little bit differently. It's obvious, but I never thought of it that way. So, I would irregular. I would say, when we did have any type of sexual contact, Ivan would he never meant it in a hurtful way, but he would usually say, "Oh, it's been a while," or like, "I wish we would do this more often." Or, there was a time when he's like, "You know, I used to think it would be such a shame if we were one of those couples who had a schedule, like a one day a week schedule." He's like, "And now I wish we had that, because we have sex so infrequently." There was a lot of hurt feelings on my end around our honeymoon, because I don't think it was Ivan's intent, but he so I think one of the things I would discuss, like Ivan is not a planner, or he really hasn't been until these past few weeks, and so he didn't really plan activities for our honeymoon, and so we ended up just spending a lot of time in our room and it became -

THERAPIST: Where were you? [00:38:06]

CLIENT: We went to the Caribbean, which I mean he planned. He surprised me, I knew nothing. But we ended up spending a lot of time in our room and it was the first time we had had sex, and it was physically painful for me because I had never had sex before.

THERAPIST: Usually the first time it is.

CLIENT: It was just also really uncomfortable because not a lot else was planned and we ended up spending a lot of time in the room and it just, I don't know, I didn't feel very I didn't feel good about that, and it wasn't his intent. Again, I feel very clearly, that was not his intent.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: But it was what happened as a result of like him not planning anything or really being very organized.

THERAPIST: Did spending a lot of time in the room then mean that there's some extra pressure (crosstalk)

CLIENT: Yeah, oh yeah, absolutely, and there was more expectation around it and there was more like frequency with it because...

THERAPIST: (inaudible).

CLIENT: And it just yeah. And it wasn't that I didn't want to, like I did, but I just wish we could have, you know, spent a lot of time doing stuff as a couple like we had always done, and made it a much smaller part. And again, I don't think that was ever his intent, but it's what happened and it made me feel kind of like not good. It made me feel like that was more the purpose of it and that's not exactly romantic. [00:39:35]

THERAPIST: It doesn't sound like it ended up feeling like sexual contact grew out of loving feelings for each other, like being so madly in love that you want to share your bodies or you want to share everything together, sort of as a natural outgrowth. It instead became the thing you were supposed to do.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Which is very different.

CLIENT: Almost an obligation.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And not that it wasn't I mean a lot of it was very, like we both wanted to, and we were clearly, much more physically in contact than we normally would have been, because we were on our honeymoon, but it still made me feel kind of, not this is the wrong word, but not like cheap, where cheap is the wrong word, but it cheapened the experience, if that makes any sense. It didn't feel like this wonderful romantic getaway to the beach, where we also experienced sex for the first time and had that be a part of it. It didn't feel like that. So, it didn't start out well and I would say, it became difficult, because every time, when Ivan would say, like after that, like it's been a while or I wish we did this more often. It would feel like a criticism. Or when Ivan would say, this is painful for you, or like I enjoyed this but it wasn't even really sex. Like it would feel very personal, and I don't think it was ever Ivan's intent, to like put me down in a very intimately personal way, but it almost felt... I mean, it's hard to explain. Waiting until marriage is kind of like a big thing and kind of an unusual thing, I think nowadays, and it's definitely like a gift that you in my experience, I guess, like something that you choose to save for your spouse. And that's like a really wonderful thing to share just with your spouse, that's like a really devoted thing to do, if that makes any... And so to have his reaction be that, like what, it's painful for you or that wasn't really fully intercourse, or this isn't often enough, it felt like a huge, huge personal slap in the face, because that was the whole thing. Of course I was uncomfortable, of course I was self-conscious, like that was the whole point, because I waited, you know. [00:41:46]

THERAPIST: So not also, then, compassion and understanding and taking care of each other, and kind of making it feel more comfortable, whatever it took, happened.

CLIENT: Yeah, I would say that. And the thing is, Ivan also hadn't had sex before we got married, but he wasn't -

THERAPIST: It's not painful.

CLIENT: No, and he wasn't uncomfortable and he wasn't maybe as self-conscious. He was very like... And it was clear that he had thought about it, you know, before our honeymoon, and planned about it, whereas I really didn't. And so it was just, we both had like a similar experience, but then we did not once we got married, and it just felt I know he didn't ever mean to diminish the value of me waiting, but that's how it felt.

THERAPIST: And so it's never really been an integrated part of your marriage that feels like it's an important piece of the whole picture.

CLIENT: No, no, and even like when we did, I would feel ashamed, I would feel guilty, I would feel like I just did something wrong, because it's not like there is an on/off switch, before you say your vows and after, where it's like oh, this is fine now. [00:42:55]

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah. We've got to stop. I'm sure there's so much more to talk about in this, but -

CLIENT: I'm sorry, I didn't wear a watch.

THERAPIST: I understand you're also tabling some, to get through the next few weeks, and I think to the degree that you're in touch with your own self-regulation and what's too much and what's enough, hopefully we can help you use this space to bring some of it out in the meantime, in the safety of here. You also have to get yourself on to work too.

CLIENT: I'll see you next week.

THERAPIST: Okay.

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