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THERAPIST: How are you?

CLIENT: Anxious and depressed. I guess I'm thinking I'm starting to sound like a broken record because that's been my feeling for the past few weeks and I'm wondering what I should be doing to work on that.

THERAPIST: You haven't mentioned depressed the last couple of weeks.

CLIENT: That's true.

THERAPIST: This is the first time you're mentioning that.

CLIENT: I think it has been there to some extent and I'm just noticing it a bit more this past week.

THERAPIST: Where do you notice it? What do you notice?

CLIENT: I've just been working more and part of it is that this project is really due soon and it's a lot. A part of it, I think, is avoiding and I can focus my anxiety and avoid dealing with that and do it at work.

THERAPIST: With Ivan?

CLIENT: Yes. I think channel it there and I don't have to get worked up about it. I worked 8:30 to 10:00 on Friday so I was really tired.

THERAPIST: Oh, my goodness. [00:01:02]

CLIENT: I've been working long hours.

THERAPIST: Are you getting paid for this?

CLIENT: I'm probably not going to get paid for most of the overtime because I'm salaried.

THERAPIST: That's a little crazy, though. That's what they're expecting you to work?

CLIENT: No, but it needs to get done. I was understandably tired so I slept in on Saturday and I realized that I just didn't want to see anyone or do anything or be bothered. Part of that could be normal and healthy if you have a really long week.

THERAPIST: If you worked until 10:00 on Friday. (chuckles)

CLIENT: But part of it is definitely I just don't want to even anything. So that was hard. And then over the weekend my sister came over to hang out and at one point she said, "How are things going with Ivan?", which was surprising because she's been kind of avoiding the topic for a long time because she has made it clear that she's very, very angry with him. [00:02:03] It was uncomfortable and I just said, "Things have been going really well and then Ivan did something that kind of set us back, and that's been tough." She asked two different questions and I said I really didn't want to get into details and she figured out that he had done that again. She was very upset (sighs) with him, but also kind of confronted me. She said, "I don't want you to become like this. This is typical that the man will do this. He'll change and it won't happen again. It's not as big of a deal as you think," defending it. She said that she was very concerned that that was my response and she said she felt like people would brush off their family members and not tell people about it because they didn't want . . . So that concerned me and got my attention because part of it is probably true. [00:03:06] Then I feel like I'm back to square one with not knowing how to react to what Ivan did, given what you've had to say about it and what Dr. Farrow has had to say about it and what Ivan has had to say about it minimally. I found a point over the weekend I got frustrated with Ivan because he's not always on top of the conversations, the scheduling, and he has not been doing the journaling. It just feels like the three really not small. They are significant things that I'm asking of him, but I think they are more than fair. If he's not following through with those consistently, I think it's hard because it's already maybe not right for me to be saying we should try to deal with this again. [00:04:02] But then if he's not willing to even fully . . . then I feel like a fool. I'm starting to really hate myself and I'm not feeling good about it and it is this kind of bizarre situation because on the one hand I still feel just a little bit left over of the like I'd like to have dinner with him tonight and talk about our days and hang out and I'd like to have that. Then on the other hand I'm thinking, "Maybe I can't stay because maybe I can never feel safe." And it's so bizarre. I understand how bizarre that sounds. (sniggers) I feel so flooded with disbelief and confusion that I don't get it. Sometimes that anxiety just gets really intense and then I start thinking, "So what if the websites weren't what he said they were? What if that's the real thing and not the . . ." (sighs) [00:05:08] It just gets to be too much and I've noticed that I can't be in the apartment without some kind of noise.

THERAPIST: Meaning?

CLIENT: Like the radio or an old TV episode on in the background.

THERAPIST: Or else what happens?

CLIENT: I don't know. I'm too anxious and I think I don't want to think about it. I don't want to be alone with that. Even if I fall asleep I have to have noise, and that's starting to feel more acute because I'm realizing I'm getting out of the shower and I had the radio on. (chuckles) I'm going into the bedroom and I have to turn something else on.

THERAPIST: Because you're anxious of your own thoughts you mean?

CLIENT: I think I want a distraction.

THERAPIST: From what you were thinking, in other words. [00:06:01]

CLIENT: Right, so that I'm not left alone to obsessively think about it; but also because I think I feel lonely. I feel alone. I feel alone with how I feel about the situation. I feel alone in marriage, in a sense. I feel just kind of insecure, almost like emotionally shaky inside right now, just bewildered and I need some kind of comfort.

THERAPIST: Some kind of company almost to soothe you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Ramona, I get what you're saying that that is a sign that something really unhealthy is happening inside; but on the other hand I also just want to applaud you, in a way. I know that sounds strange to say, but it's a kind of coping strategy that actually is a good one to have if that's part of what's helping soothe your anxiety. It's so much better than if you go drinking or cutting or starting to hate yourself completely. [00:07:06] These are the much more dangerous things. If the radio keeps you company, I think that's wonderful. It's an adaptive thing to be trying right now, while it also is a signal of how alone you are feeling and how anxious you feel when you're alone and overwhelmed by it. Foremost, it sounds like you feel more alone with Ivan. Rather than having you there on the same page and being your company in life, in your day, in the day-to-day, it feels like you don't trust him again.

CLIENT: It just feels so hard. I guess I feel like with what Ivan had done before, this most recent thing, I felt like the conversations and the couple's counseling, that those are going to be, obviously, really, really essential like my working here. [00:08:06] But also just time, putting time between what happened and that feels like the clock just keeps starting over every single time and it's starting to feel like how can it get to be the last time? Definitely, if it can't get to be the last time, this is not sustainable.

THERAPIST: You're so right. For one, this puts you back, if you remember how you felt the first time it happened. In some ways, you're doing better than the first time it happened because I think you've done a lot of work around what it means. You understand it more. You have more awareness of your own feelings, but yet it does bring you back to that state of really not trusting him again. I think it's also hard in another way, even if your coping might be better and a little different from the first time, there is a way this is harder because the first time it happened, you had this feeling of okay, I'll start to try to build trust and maybe if enough time passes and it hasn't happened again, I could really trust him again. [00:09:12] But now that it's happened again, it does have the feel of why would I trust the next time, then? This much time lapsed and it happened. How do I know it's not going to happen again? Your trust gets a little bit degraded in its potential. Do you know what I mean? I think it's exhausting, like how much can you go back inside your heart and reopen it back up to trying to learn to trust again? How many times can you do that?

CLIENT: Especially if this is what happens when Ivan feels like we're on the brink of really succeeding; then any efforts to succeed are futile. [00:09:59] I realized after the last session when you asked me what my limits needed to be or what I felt like they would ultimately be in saying that being raped or physically or violently abused, I don't feel good about myself for saying that. I don't feel good about that at all.

THERAPIST: [Tell me more] (ph?) What do you mean?

CLIENT: This shouldn't have to be that extreme. I don't know. I guess it's a difficult balance. (sighs) It shouldn't have to be that extreme to say that it's not okay and lately I'm realizing what does it mean to say that it's not okay? To say that it's a limit? To say that it's too much? Does that mean that if this happens again I will leave you? Is that what it has to mean? Does there have to be an ultimatum like that? It doesn't feel quite fair because I really don't feel like I want to get divorced. [00:11:01]

THERAPIST: No one does.

CLIENT: I feel like the feelings are kind of forced. It's so hard because I told Ivan I feel like he has so much control over how I feel. I feel like I can work as hard as I can at anxiety or depression and anyone who has this done to them is going to probably feel some kind of anxiety and probably going to feel down. I hate that he's able to do that to me.

THERAPIST: Ramona, it's been a couple of weeks now since it happened. How has he responded? Has it felt like he's taking accountability for it? In other words, are things right back on track with extra apology and ownership, or do you feel like there are other ways it's slipping, too. For example, you're saying he hasn't been scheduling conversations. For a while that was happening. [00:12:03]

CLIENT: They are scheduled. They're on the calendar, but if I get home at 10:00 and we haven't had one, Dr. Farrow has been real clear that it's his job to reschedule. Something like that. Or when 8:30 rolls around and we're both home, it's his job to say, "Let's sit down and talk." He hasn't been as on top of that.

THERAPIST: In the last few weeks? Wasn't he for a while?

CLIENT: Yes, he was. I don't know. I will admit, I'm sure, I put a strain on that if I'm not home like around 6:00 or 6:30 like I was before, but he's also not pushing it. And the journaling, I'm feeling pretty short of patience when he's like . . . [00:12:59]

THERAPIST: And what is that?

CLIENT: Dr. Bourd said that he really needs to sit and write and try to let the [problem] (ph?) sink in and try to work on how to express it. I told Ivan that felt very important to me and I really do need those answers if we are going to move on, so I made that request. He said, "I'm going to journal every day. I'm not going to miss another conversation." He makes these kind of extreme promises which sound good, but maybe aren't realistic. I'm not asking for perfection, but he's mostly just not journaling at all. A conversation is missed and I'm saying "you know, we missed that one," so that doesn't feel great. In fact, I said, "Maybe you need to move out again if you're not." I felt like it wasn't me saying it. I felt backed into a corner where it's like enough and I'm saying over and over "it's enough, it's enough, it's enough." "No more, no more, no more" and no one is paying any attention. I feel like it was almost an attempt for me to get his attention, something extreme; but maybe also something plausible because there does have to be a limit. [00:14:11] I felt really uncomfortable because Ivan just said, "I'm not moving out again if we're together. I'm just not," which felt like a threat but then he also said . . .

THERAPIST: That's how he said it?

CLIENT: Yes. "I'm just not. I'm just not moving out again if we're together." And then he said, "I really want to be here. I want to be with you. I want to work on things. I'm not going to abandon you. I'm not going to leave you." So it had two different tones to it, one being kind of like "no matter what I do, I'm not leaving." That's how I heard it; maybe that's not how he meant it. The other one being "I know you push away when you're hurt. I'm not going to leave you. I really do want to work on it." (chuckles) Very different tones. [00:15:01] And then the next day I told him I was very scared by that and he said his intent was just to say that he wanted to be there to work on things and if what we ultimately needed was for him to move out he would do that again, which I guess feels okay. But it also feels horrible because, again, I don't know if anyone appreciates it, but I don't want Ivan to move out. I don't want to get divorced. I don't want to sleep in separate rooms.

THERAPIST: Of course, you don't.

CLIENT: But I don't feel like I have a choice and it doesn't feel great.

THERAPIST: How are you?

CLIENT: I'm just really sad about it. I just feel wronged and it's so hard to wrap my head around it and I hear myself saying to my sister, "I don't want to go into details, but what happened was different from what happened the first time." And I'm thinking that on the one hand, from what you and I have discussed, it's true. [00:16:04] It is somewhat different and Ivan is struggling with it and you can't make a big change overnight. But on the other hand, I feel like a fool. I hear myself saying that and it almost sounds like I'm defending it.

THERAPIST: I don't actually think it's that different. We don't know the first time around if he was struggling in the months before he did it. It wouldn't surprise me if he did. I think what's different is that overall in the context there have been tremendous improvements. Do you know what I mean? This is a little hard to know because you eventually told him that you were awake before you had a chance to see what would happen next. It wasn't that he stopped himself and rolled back over.

CLIENT: And I don't know. He said, "I wouldn't have," but I don't know. [00:17:00] And with the websites, he was like, "I wouldn't have," and I'm starting to feel like I don't know and that is terrifying.

THERAPIST: Yeah. You don't trust him.

CLIENT: It doesn't feel possible.

THERAPIST: Oh, I don't see that as something like just your issue. He hasn't built trust in himself that anyone would trust him right now. It's really sad, Ramona, and you just must be so devastated inside.

CLIENT: I'm sad, but I'm also just so angry and so confused.

THERAPIST: And what are you angry about?

CLIENT: I'm so furious. The other day, my mom was on the phone and she was like, "How is it going?" I said, "Things are going really well, but then something kind of serious happened." She said, "Well, we all backslide sometimes." She's been very sharp with me before because she is like, "You tell me that it's not appropriate for me to talk with you about your dad's affair." [00:18:03] It feels absolutely, positively horrible. And then his dad it was before his dad knew because Ivan evidently told his parents again what happened but before he knew, there was no contact after Christmas until he texted and said, "We're all going on our bi-annual vacation to Montana to see extended family. We hope you'll join us." (sighs) And then his mom, after they supposedly knew, I know she sent an e-mail and I literally got a panic attack. I refused to read it because the title was something about "visiting". They don't get it. I got so upset at Christmas because his dad, in private, said to me, "I understand that Ivan overstepped boundaries that you had agreed to as a couple," and I just felt like . . . I would never hurt his dad, but I was so angry I wanted to yell at him or I wanted to something because I was like how dare you minimize, normalize, diminish what he did, the severity of it and make it sound like it's a quirk particular to our relationship. [00:19:14] I was just so furious. (sighs)

THERAPIST: This is a lot of what I wondered, Ramona. How much of your getting depressed is actually kind of stuffed inside your anger. You must be furious. Have you gotten angry at Ivan? Has that come out as anger?

CLIENT: I did one night.

THERAPIST: I don't mean being mean to him and screaming, yelling, cursing your head off, but telling him you're angry.

CLIENT: I told him how angry I was and how much I felt like he just took everything away and how unfair it felt, how cruel it felt, truly just cruel, to have such a great experience and then he just is . . . [00:20:01]

THERAPIST: Everything you've been working on, he threw away. You must be furious.

CLIENT: I don't know what I'm supposed to do. I don't know how to move forward. I don't know if I should be moving forward. I don't know. The only thing I feel is true is that I don't want to make any decisions when I'm in an emotional state like this.

THERAPIST: And I don't even know. Even moving forward, the way you describe it, it's almost like a decision to move forward. Moving forward might happen, but it will come from the ground up as a natural thing, if that's kind of where it evolves. I don't think there is a prescription to move forward. What's really important is that you know and can feel what you feel and take care of those feelings and respect them. [00:21:04] Do you feel angry right now?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What are you feeling when you feel anger in your body?

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Where do you feel it?

CLIENT: In my chest.

THERAPIST: In your chest. I know it sounds strange to ask, but is there a fantasy that comes up about screaming at someone or yelling or hitting or punching or breaking windows?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Nothing comes up like that?

CLIENT: When Ivan actually did it to me, in bed I had a fantasy. I just wanted to kick him as hard as I possibly could. I just wanted to. And I don't think I would ever do that. (sniggers)

THERAPIST: There is a huge difference between a fantasy and an action. I don't actually think you would do that. I don't actually think you would hit him. You could have a fantasy of stabbing him in the heart and would never do that. [00:22:03] These are fantasies that are sometimes expressions of anger that allow you to actually get closer to the feeling and kind of respect and honor the feeling because you can notice what the flash is, what the image is that accompanies the feeling. Do you remember where you wanted to kick him?

CLIENT: Yeah. I wanted to kick him in the groin. Absolutely. I was so red-hot furious. The thing is, when we sat and talked I didn't raise my voice. I didn't swear. I didn't get any anger out that night. I don't think I really even cried that much.

THERAPIST: Did you communicate in words that you were angry?

CLIENT: That night? I don't know. I said something to him like I felt like I was wondering if he just wanted to end the marriage, but I didn't communicate disappointment. I don't think I said "I'm really angry." [00:23:01]

THERAPIST: Again, I'm speaking to the part of you that started the session today saying, "I'm depressed and I'm anxious and I kind of need some help with that." I think, Ramona, there may be a way inside this experience over the last few weeks that you've gotten triggered of stuff from your childhood. Really understand where someone, another person, has really betrayed you in what they promised or said they would do in the role they are supposed to mean to you. It pushes you into a kind of traumatized state to fight or flight self-protectiveness. When, as a child, you tried to fight, you tried to fight, you tried to fight, but it also didn't go very far. The fleeing into a kind of anxious preoccupation and self-loathing was another coping mechanism for how traumatized you were, how angry you were sort of turn it all in on yourself. [00:24:04] And I wonder if a little bit of that is happening. As you've talked about it with me over the last two sessions and then today, you've been very measured and calm talking about it. That's not to say that I think you should be losing it or punching my window out at that extreme, but I kind of have this feeling like where are your feelings about this? This is horrible.

CLIENT: It is, but I tried to explain to my sister it feels a lot like what I experienced growing up. For example, the week at school when I found out that my parents just spent everything that was in my college savings, which they didn't even put in there, they couldn't even really explain what they spent it on. I could have had a breakdown and I could have not gone to class and I could have sobbed in my room all week and I could have told everyone under the sun that would listen. I could have done that, but then I would have been behind on classwork and they would have been able to affect that. [00:25:02] I would have made a scene in front of all my friends and they would have been able to take away some quality time with them. It feels like and it still does with my parents like whatever they do, and now it feel s to an extent with Ivan, whatever they do, you just have to keep going. You just have to take it. You just have to keep going. You just have to . . .

THERAPIST: That's what I'm worried about when you say "should I just be moving forward," kind of like "okay, I just have to take it. There is nothing I can do about it. This is who they are. They're going to keep doing this and I just have to keep taking care of myself and move on, plug on." That's the part that, I think, is the old triggered state that you don't quite know right now that you don't have to take being treated like this. I don't mean that that means for sure you should get divorced. I don't know that, but the part that doesn't know that you should actually not be treated like this and you don't have to take it. You do not have to stay with someone who is going to keep doing this to you. [00:26:03]

CLIENT: But what does that even mean? I've said to my parents and I've said to Ivan, "This isn't okay. I want this to stop. This can't happen again." It doesn't necessarily have any effect. I do see that there is supposed to be a difference. With your parents they're your parents. You kind of have to make the best of whatever their choices are and decide to live with it in some way, but with your spouse you made that choice. It doesn't feel that simple,

THERAPIST: With your parents, you have a long history of trying to get through to them and you know that nothing works, right? In a way, right, with them it is what it is. It's not going to change and there, the self-protective mechanisms for you become more like how do we protect Ramona so she doesn't keep getting drawn back into hoping it's going to be different? So she doesn't go home and try to fix everything, hoping it will be different and then in the process destroying herself? [00:27:05] They're still your parents. I don't think you're ready to divorce them as parents, by any means, but they're not going to be who you want them to be. A partner you do get to choose. There is obviously a very meaningful, weighty, moral, ethical choice. I think if it weren't for you, Ramona, you would have already been out of there, so of course you are taking that part of it extremely seriously, but he's also not your parents. You can't get rid of your parents being parents, whether you like it or not. Do you know what I mean? Even if you divorce them as parents and never see them again, they're still your parents. That's the part as an adult that I think you don't quite know yet. You don't have to tolerate this happening anymore. It might mean that if you said to Ivan, "This cannot happen again. If it happens again, I cannot stay in this marriage." [00:28:03] [If he never did it again] (ph?) I don't know what would happen. What I do know is that he's not your parents characteralogically in a way, because he's already shown that when you've said "these things need to happen," he's actually done a lot of them. His capacity to be reached and changed is much bigger than theirs.

CLIENT: Maybe. I've thought about what would happen if I said, "If this happens again, I will leave you because this is unacceptable and I don't feel safe in my own bed with you." What if I don't mean it and what if I do mean it or he perceives that I mean it and he does it again to make sure that it ends because he's terrified of failure. But as a result, he's terrified of finally making the progress. I feel like that could push him to it. [00:28:59]

THERAPIST: It could. I totally follow all your lines of thinking and that could make you say "okay, I'm not going to say that yet because I want to give him some more time to work on it some." But it also means what does that mean if you're married to someone where you say "if you assault me again" and he assaults you again, that's kind of crazy. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: I do. I do, but honestly it feels kind of crazy to be working with Ivan and trying to make progress and really getting to understand why he made a website saying he was looking for a discreet relationship with a female and trying to wrap my head around the fact that he wasn't interested in having an affair and wanted a fantasy of having sexual relations with me. That feels crazy, even if it's really true and even if it's what he's experiencing. That feels crazy and I guess I'm worried how far I'll go down that road. [00:30:01] Emma said, "I think you're worried about him, like you need to take care of him."

THERAPIST: Like you want to save him?

CLIENT: Yeah, but also like what would happen to him if you left him or the fact that he has needed so much support and care around getting some of these things addressed that are years and years overdue? I do feel bad for him in a lot of ways.

THERAPIST: You care about him, Ramona. You don't only hate him and only feel rage.

CLIENT: I don't hate Ivan at all, actually. I just have hated what he's done to me. It's so bizarre. That's why I say I feel like two different people, kind of. I'm not having a crisis of personality (chuckles), but I'm sometimes feeling like when I think back on those two or three months when we had such a really good experience in your marriage and even if it was baseline, it felt like the best thing in the world. I was reminded of how much I enjoyed dating Ivan in the first place and being with him in the first place and being friends with him, getting that back. [00:31:06] So sometimes I still feel like I want to hold onto that.

THERAPIST: Which is understandable.

CLIENT: Other times I feel like this is crazy and it is too much and my sister said, "You need to understand that you have worked hard and you have tried and you didn't just give up."

THERAPIST: Do you ever picture dating other people?

CLIENT: (pause) I don't know. When I look at my friends, like if I were single, if I wasn't married, that that would be a possibility for me, but I have also thought that if Ivan and I got divorced that I couldn't see that happening, at least not for many years. I couldn't see dating anyone or getting married again. [00:32:01] Not having children I could see that that might not happen because I don't feel like I could go through this again, not that everyone goes through this.

THERAPIST: You are also a different person, Ramona. This is just the person who you are today and what you can know about yourself, what you know about your history, what you know about what the red flags are in other people. I actually think you're much more aware, even in your relationship with Ivan. If it lasts and it works, it's going to be a better relationship than it ever was because of what you're now aware of. You're working on yourself and getting him to work on himself and I think that's what's maybe hard to trust will actually carry over. You bring that with you. [00:32:55] The question of could you find a relationship where you are not triggered by this and you still get to have fun days with [the man that you end up with] (ph?). In a way, that's actually not a lot to ask. I'm not talking about madly, madly in love, but just a friend who [can spend time with you who doesn't just love you.] (ph?)

CLIENT: It's just hard because I love Ivan and I want to be with him, but it's hard to say that because I don't want to be with him when he does those things and I don't know if it's possible to be with him without him doing any of those things.

THERAPIST: It would be much easier if you hated him. This is so complicated and tortured for you because you can love him. You love a lot of the things you've shared and then he treats you this way and it makes it hard to just enjoy. [00:34:00] One of the things I would guess is you can get anxious, Ramona, about needing an answer today about what to do. You know when you say, "Should I just be moving forward?" I think there is a kind of urgency for an answer about what to do that makes you even more agitated and worked up and even despairing about I don't know what to do. I don't know what to do. I think giving yourself more permission just not knowing what to do and to have that be okay because I think if you did any one thing right now it would be premature and be filled with bad feelings, including leaving him. Do you know what I mean? It's horrible and devastating that you're back in this place, from where you were, where I was saying the same thing to you. The name of the game right now is just letting it wait and letting yourself absorb and get in touch with your experience because you cannot know tomorrow or a week from now what you want to do, how you'll feel, how it will evolve, what you'll see, what signs you'll continue to see in one direction or another from him. [00:35:15] You do need the respect of yourself for having time to let yourself keep sensing yourself and knowing the experience. Does that make sense?

CLIENT: Yeah, it's just hard.

THERAPIST: I wonder if you've been journaling at all and if doing that a little bit more would be helpful again?

CLIENT: I did last weekend. Throughout the week I pretty much have gotten home in the evening and eaten and gone to sleep, which I think I am avoiding not maybe consciously, but I am. When I did, it helped. It helped.

THERAPIST: I would really encourage you to keep doing that and even do a little bit each day, like if you're sitting on the train. Two sentences or something. What's the feeling you're feeling that day? What's the thought? Kind of getting that on paper and getting more in touch with your experiences so your feelings aren't getting shoved under the rug while you're working until 10:00 at night. I'm also a little concerned about your work schedule and hopefully this is going to be temporary, but I think there might be ways that as much as it can feel like a distraction from what you're wanting to push away, it could also then prolong the waiting period to be so, so busy that you don't have time to even breathe or think or have downtime or practice good self-care. I don't know what you're doing for relaxation times, an overt space where Ramona is taken care of in a way that has nothing to do with Ivan and issues. You need an hour where you're doing yoga or meditating or watching a dumb television show and not thinking about this and just practicing self-care, restorative self-care. [00:37:09] It doesn't sound like work is allowing you much room for that. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Yeah, that's true. It's sad, but it's also nice. I don't know how to describe it. But when I do work until late, Ivan comes and picks me up and he's made dinner and he wants to hear about my day and is like "you must be exhausted." It's like what was happening before is still happening and it's just really hard to . . . yeah.

THERAPIST: How do you feel when he does that? Does it feel good or do you feel like "I'm really mad at you. This feels awful and uncomfortable that you're being so nice." [00:38:03]

CLIENT: It feels good. Sometimes I just want to avoid him. Like he made lunch for me the one weekend day and I just wanted to not eat with him. (chuckles) I was like, "I really appreciate that you did this, but I just need space and I just don't want to . . ."

THERAPIST: You said that to him?

CLIENT: Yeah, I told him I just need some time to myself but I feel kind of guilty because I don't want to push away his efforts. I can't say "I want you to make efforts and work on this" and then say "I'm so angry at you I don't want to acknowledge any of your efforts." But sometimes it also scares me because I'm like "what if he's pretending things are back to normal?" I guess I just don't know how to really describe what happened or how to really respond to it.

THERAPIST: The more you, in couple's therapy and in our conversations, can name, just name what you just described so that he can hear it out loud, too, it's going to be so helpful to both of you. [00:39:05] For you to be able to say "I so want you to keep up your efforts. It's really important to me. And then at the same time I'm having a conflict about it because there are some days where I feel so hurt and mad still that I do want some time alone. I don't want to send the message to you that I want you to stop trying or that I'm backing away, but it is important to me sometimes to not just have lunch because we're so used to having lunch. I have a lot of feelings to work on." Just naming that with him so that he knows you're in conflict about it. Ramona, I think you're doing the right thing by honoring and trying to think about what you're feeling and trying to respect it and follow it, including sharing lunch if it feels good that day to share lunch. You don't sound like you're forgiving what happened if you share lunch right now. Keep journaling. Keep trying to get the space. [00:40:00] I think it's really important, even if it's just on the weekends, that you have some time that is downtime that is not thinking about Ivan maybe even not with Ivan. Do you know what I mean? Doing something that is a massage or a pedicure or yoga class, something along those lines that is taking care of Ramona, carving out some time that's for you.

CLIENT: It's hard.

THERAPIST: I don't want you to start getting degraded. You need resources and reserves to be able to have the perseverance to pursue this incredibly emotional and difficult [life] (ph?) that you didn't ask for and didn't want.

CLIENT: Well thank you.

THERAPIST: I'll see you next week. Journal. If you want to send me anything, that's great. I will [definitely let you know as soon as I know about the 10:00 and 7:30.] (ph?)

CLIENT: Okay.

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