TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Are you still submitting?

CLIENT: I'm sorry?

THERAPIST: You're still submitting for the healthcare reimbursement?

CLIENT: I never was.

THERAPIST: Oh. Oh, no, no, I don't mean to the insurance for the sessions, I mean you need the receipt for getting your co-pays back, in other words.

CLIENT: Yes. Because for the flex dollars I can get pre-tax, so yes.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: And let me know if there's any problem based on... So?

CLIENT: I'm not sure where to start.

THERAPIST: What's top of mind?

CLIENT: Oh, I guess I'm just feeling anxious and... I'm feeling like we had kind of a tough session with Dr. Farrow this past week.

THERAPIST: How so?

CLIENT: So the time we saw her before that she had said... we had been talking about the assault, we had been talking about everything, and at the end of it she said she was very impressed with how well we were doing communicating with each other, and doing a really good job of talking about a really difficult subject in a really healthy or a productive way. And then we didn't see her the next week because of it was basically like a snow day. And I actually worked from home. And then this past week we saw her and we started off by just talking about how the homeworks were going, the conversations, and I said I felt like I was stuck, that it was something I talked about with you, and... Anyway, she ended up encouraging me to try on-"try on," her words-what it would feel like to be divorced, what it would feel like to get a divorce. Which is kind of difficult to hear and a little bizarre thing to be encouraged to pursue, in my mind. Obviously it's just my perspective. [2:00]

And then she talked to Ivan about how he felt stuck, and he talked about a number of things. But he also talked about how he had been experiencing kind of... what he had described before, but kind of his... I mean, for lack of a better description, kind of like an existential crisis, where he feels like his experience doesn't matter and only other people's perception of him does. Which is why he felt like letting people feel good about him being in grad school was a better choice than letting them be so disappointed and so unhappy if they knew what actually was going on. Which he acknowledges doesn't make sense, but had been his experience before.

THERAPIST: Although I have to say, that's a very defensive way of putting it, because he's denying that actually the person he's protecting when he tells other people what they want to hear...

CLIENT: Is him.

THERAPIST: ... is him.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And he's not doing that to like prioritize your experience.

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: [laughs] Okay.

CLIENT: And we've talked about how it's exactly the opposite of what his [whole? 3:06] is.

THERAPIST: Yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: But he talked a good bit about that, and that was excruciating for me to hear. Because I've heard it before, and it's just like nails on a chalkboard. Because it's like... I guess in my mind-this is just in my mind-I feel like everyone at some point... you know, certain times in your life you feel like, "Oh, I..." you know, in the scheme of things what I'm doing isn't the most important thing in the world. And, you know, my legacy might not... You could think like that. I mean...

THERAPIST: Mm hm, every person could.

CLIENT: Exactly. I mean, and I feel like it might be healthy to, you know, have that thought once in a blue moon. Billions of people in the world, how important are you? But having it be a passing thought once in a blue moon that might be motivating, or might make you feel a little down, would be different from, I lie about failing in grad school for years because I'm so insignificant that my real experience doesn't even matter. [4:00]

THERAPIST: Just so I understand, as he's talking about that in this most recent session, is he talking about grad school again, or just feeling that now in life right now?

CLIENT: He was talking about how that happened in grad school, but how until the past... he said up until the past few months that had really been hard for him to break that thinking. Even though he said he understands intellectually that that's nonsensical, it has been hard for him to break out of that pattern. And that he says he and Dr. [Bourd? 4:37] have been really working on that in the past few months, he feels like he's been able to overcome it a lot, but it's still there to some extent, but he's able to kind of silence it. So...

THERAPIST: What it was was a feeling that he's been working on it and it's changed. Okay.

CLIENT: But that was unclear to me, and I think to Dr. Farrow, in the session, that it was a past thing and not a this is still going on. Which is part of why it was unbearable for me, because it's just hard for me to validate and hard for me to take in to... you know, Ivan's able to do these... some of these things that have horrific consequences for me, and obviously ultimately for him, because he can't get past thinking that he is a bunch of atoms in the middle of a huge universe. It's like insane. And I told Dr. Farrow that was really hard for me to take in, and she's like, "Well, then maybe it is time for you to leave, you know, if it's really hard for you to take that in." Which is obviously I think would be hard for anyone to hear.

So Ivan and I had our scheduled conversation later that day and he explained that it wasn't a present thing, that he had been experiencing [it] in the past. And that felt more bearable for me, but it's still hard. And it was hard to hear her say that.

THERAPIST: There's something that you're also picking up on, in that it was not clear as he's talking in the session...

CLIENT: It wasn't. [6:00]

THERAPIST: ... that he was talking about the past.

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: And I don't think... In other words, you and Dr. Farrow sound confused.

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: Because there's something you're picking up on that is still present.

CLIENT: Well, he says... he's like, "I thought that was clear. Sorry if I didn't make that clear but that..." So it sounded like we were both confused on what he was saying but... that was hard.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I can't know what's in Dr. Farrow's mind to interpret her for you.

CLIENT: Oh no, I'm not asking you to.

THERAPIST: I know you're not, I'm just sort of saying... as I say, I have no idea if this was in her mind or not, but sometimes couples' therapists will bring up if things are feeling stuck the idea of envisioning staying together forever, the idea of envisioning getting divorced, and really, really trying on what that looks like, what that feels like internally, as almost an exercise. Not as a like, really you should start thinking about getting divorced. And that sometimes can get brought up as an exercise, with the intention that probably if you picture it you won't want to do that. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And that sometimes when people walk themselves through that it's only then that they start realizing, yeah, I don't want that, that's not where I am at all. So I don't...

CLIENT: No, and she said something to that effect. She said, "Sometimes when couples start to think about it they're like, no, I would never want to get divorced."

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Or she's like, "Maybe it's time for you to start thinking what feelings come up." And I told her I had to some extent. And to be honest, I feel... I don't know, I feel a little defensive of it, but a thought that does come to mind is relief. Not at getting divorced, but at knowing that I would definitely never be assaulted again, I would definitely never, you know, be lied to or betrayed to again. I would never... you know, have to deal with that again, or, to be honest, like his crazy parents. Like it's unkind. It's unkind to put it that way, but the thought of not dealing with all that stress, and not going to couples counseling every week, and having scheduled conversations, and trying so hard to get over it and forgive and move on. Of course not having that in my life sounds appealing, but I imagine anyone who had experienced that would... if you could take that away it would feel relief, it would be a relief. [8:30]

THERAPIST: Sure, sure.

CLIENT: But I realize that's what I would feel relieved about. I wouldn't feel relieved about not having dinner with Ivan every night, or having all the good parts of the relationship, which obviously I guess people go to couples counseling if they want to preserve the good parts and work on the difficult things.

THERAPIST: And people stay together when they feel like the good outweighs the bad.

CLIENT: Which it's hard to feel right now, it's hard to gauge. Because I was feeling that way for those three months. Definitely I was feeling like I don't...

THERAPIST: Like nobody else had [overtalk].

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: Yup, yup.

CLIENT: And I wasn't even to the point where I was like, Ivan and I will be old and gray together. I was definitely at least feeling like in the short term we could keep building on that, and we could get to that point again. But since this happened again it's felt like such a restart. And I told Dr. Farrow it felt almost worse than like going back to square one, because if something's bad, and something bad happens, and something else bad happens, like that's different from something... a lot of really bad things happening and then a lot of good time, and then something else bad. It just feels worse. It feels cruel. [10:00]

So I've been trying to think about that, and I had a very serious conversation with Ivan on Saturday where we had one of our conversations and I told him, like, "Do you think... do you honestly feel... like you're working on so much within yourself right now. Could you do that better if you weren't also trying to deal with a relationship?" What would each of us be doing with all that energy and that time and that emotional space if we weren't trying to tackle all these struggles. And I felt... it was so difficult, because Ivan just said, "I love you with all that I am, and all I want is to make this work." And I believe him. I don't believe that Ivan's intent has ever been to... has ever been malicious or intentional... like that he was cognizant of the impact it would have when he did it. Not that that makes the outcome okay, it obviously doesn't, but...

THERAPIST: So what happens inside you as you hear him say that?

CLIENT: It feels like the old Ivan. You know, it feels like what I liked about him from the start, it feels about... I guess it feels comforting. I would imagine any spouse who heard their spouse say, "I love you with all that I am," like that would feel good. Of course it feels good. It also does... it feels a little sad, because it's always hard-at least this has been my experience with my parents and with Ivan-it's hard when someone tells you they love you so much and you're so important to them and yet their actions just don't match that, that's really hard to take.

THERAPIST: That's why I think it's really complicated, but I can see how remote you feel as he says that. And that you actually probably are picking up on that, there's a genuine feeling he's having for you as he's saying that that is so powerful and so real and so what you loved about him in the relationship to begin with. And yet you're trying to say at the same time, is that enough, that he can say those words? And even mean those words right now. Is that enough to stay? Is that enough to make this marriage feel happy? Enough for me? [12:20]

CLIENT: And that's what I expressed to Ivan. Because I said, I think... you know, lots of people love each other. That doesn't mean that their marriage is healthy, or that their relationship lasts long-term. And there's a lot more to it than that. You can be madly in love but not be able to live in the same... the same place, I suspect.

THERAPIST: Or you can be madly in love and be really cruel to each other. You know? I mean, it's actually more the norm that someone... a batter or a... you know, a husband who batters a wife will on a good day say, "I love you more than anything," right. That is actually not normal if that's not getting said. That's part of how the make-up part happens that convinces the woman to stay again, right. That is real, it's not fake. And yet there's another part that's really complicated and just as real.

CLIENT: I guess that was happening with Ivan.

THERAPIST: We don't know. He's not beating you, I don't mean to say that's happening. I think that's what you're trying to figure out, is how much is there that's really good that outweighs what isn't okay. You know. And you are trying to not eliminate either one and really keep yourself open to all the parts. That the version in the battered wife that would happen that you're trying not to do is the wife forgetting he's done this ten times before, and every time he says I won't do it again, every time he does it again. Right. That's when it becomes as much her dilemma as it is his. And I think that's why you're saying this is harder this time now, because you are aware that he did this before and might do it again. It hasn't been ten times either. [14:15]

CLIENT: No. And I don't want to defend Ivan, but I guess I also want to know what you think with... I guess I feel like when a batterer-if that term is actually used-when they, you know, abuse their spouse it is with, you know, intent to have power or control over them, or it is with the intent to be violent or be aggressive, it is... like that's part of the intent, and to know... like to exploit their fears or their weaknesses. And the intent might matter. I know that what Ivan has done is abusive, but I don't know that he goes into it wanting power and control over me, or wanting... or feeling violent towards me or aggressive towards me, or, you know, wanting to hurt me. Not that that... I'm not saying that that makes the outcome okay in any way, shape or form.

THERAPIST: No, of course the intent matters. It matters a lot even. It's really important actually what his intention was.

CLIENT: But I think it's different maybe, and that maybe Ivan is not a batterer.

THERAPIST: And I'm not saying that by bringing up that example. Just so you know, I'm bringing up kind of an extreme example about what... it's certainly possible for people to do harmful things to another person they also love a lot. And in fact, that's actually part of ordinary marriage. If we take it to the really, really less extreme, people... like if something slipped out when you're mad that you don't mean and it's kind of a mean thing to say to your spouse, right? That's ordinary. And you still love them. It doesn't mean you don't love them, right. [16:00]

And I think that that's what is happening. That feels like, okay, that mean thing you just said to me is minor relative to everything we share. And you're trying to figure out where are we on this spectrum. We're not here. What he did is more than this. What's enough where I feel like all the good is... like the scale's just tipped enough that this is worth it for me? And I think what's hard about it is it's a moving target right now. Like up goes three months, it was like this, right? Good was way up here. So now he's done this thing where it pushes it a little bit more like this again, and you don't know, like is it going to keep tipping back in this direction? What happens even if a year goes by and he does the same thing? And now you could actually say-if I'm his therapist even I'd say-"Wow, that's huge progress, he didn't have a slip in the behavior until a whole year later." Right? If you were trying to give up drugs and alcohol or something like that, that would be tremendous improvement. But yet for you that's also something that, what does it mean that this could potentially happen again, even if it's five years down the line? You know?

CLIENT: That's the other thing, I don't want to be... I want to be realistic, and I want to allow Ivan to be human. I don't... It's hard, because given what Ivan's done I feel like the bar is actually higher than it would be normally, because like I just... I couldn't tolerate anything like that again. And if we, you know, work super hard and in five years it happened again I would feel unbelievably devastated. And my hopes of it never happening again just would become kind of laughable.

THERAPIST: And yet it's hard, you know, [noise]... if he's an alcoholic, and he goes to AA, and he gets into treatment, and he's sober. It is so common for people to do well, do well, do well... have a slip. Do well for even longer and have a slip. Do well for even longer and have a slip. That's their Chinese word for make changes that stick. That's also part of, you know, him being towards this side, is that he's actually done a lot. He's been changing a tremendous amount in a relatively short amount of time given a lifespan of being in a different way. That's very real. [18:15]

CLIENT: It is. And yet, I don't know, I guess I feel alcoholism is a disease, and you need [to be] biologically disposed to it, you can... And I know that outcomes of that can be so, so hurtful to those around you. But what Ivan is doing, I guess I just feel like I can't... I can't sleep in the same bed with him again if I feel like it could happen.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And worst of all that I could not wake up. I can't do that.

THERAPIST: It's scary about this particular behavior maybe because there's a chance it could happen without you knowing about it.

CLIENT: Well, yes. And it's also like... I don't know, I can't explain it exactly, but that night when we went to bed and we were both relatively happy and feeling so hopeful and excited that things were moving along, and relief to go to bed like that. And to wake up like that, it just feels... I feel like I don't have control, and that he's able to just take it all away, you know, within a half hour. I don't like feeling like that.

THERAPIST: One of the things maybe you can [almost?], Ramona, is if I say something that like sort of has a flavor of being more on this end of the spectrum you'll want to see it this way, if I say something that has a flavor of being more on this end of the spectrum you'll remind me and us and yourself. But really this actually is not the same as being an addict. And I think just to notice that in yourself. I think that probably happens with Dr. Farrow too, if she says, "Well, try on getting divorced," the part of you that says, "No, that's a terrible idea" will get louder. And if she says, "I definitely think you should stay," then probably the part of you would say, "Are you kidding me, after what he's done?" That you are really, really deeply ambivalent in your own self right now about what to do with this, where you are. You feel feelings that make you feel like you want to stay and keep working, you feel feelings that make you feel like this is crazy. And they're both yours. [20:30]

And I think the more that I can help you own your conflict about it, and that Dr. Farrow can help you own and know your conflict, that just gets inter-personalized. If I take up one pole you're going to take up the other, and if I take up this pole you're going to take up this pole. Do you know what I mean? That actually both poles are inside you. And it's almost easier for a fraction of a second if I take up one part of it, because then you know the other part and you can feel it very strongly. And vice versa, it's hardest to bear both parts inside yourself.

CLIENT: I really don't know what to do on a daily basis, I really don't know what to think or feel, I feel so confused. And before it happened I was still confused and still ambivalent, because three months is not that long. But now it's like I can't see like two feet ahead of me. I don't know. I feel scared and... Like sometimes I feel like I'm so at peace with parting ways with Ivan. That it could be healthier, that I think of like what would I be doing with my life if I weren't working on this or dealing with this. And I did some journaling and the thoughts came out that sometimes I... I don't know, I feel ashamed of it. But sometimes I look at other people and if they're close to my age and I see that they're married or they're not married I think like, well, maybe they have to deal with this. Not this, necessarily, but they have to deal with problems too. They have to... you know, they have that level of responsibility or complication in their life. [22:00]

Not that everyone who's married... I know that not everyone who's married is dealing with this. Or I look at someone who isn't married, especially a lot of the fellows that I will like work with, and they're, you know, becoming surgeons and they're whatever, and they're not married, and I think they're so successful. They probably couldn't do what they do if they were tied down or dealing with this kind of drama or stress or however you would phrase it. Like what if I can't move forward because I made this choice? I wouldn't have to be married, you know? I'm young. Sometimes I blame myself. And I think the saddest thing is I feel like it has nothing to do with our age. That's not what Ivan's been going through or dealing... like that's not really a... I don't feel like that's indicative of him...I don't think that's what that is about.

THERAPIST: I wonder what you do picture, Ramona, and I-just so you know, in terms of that conflict, this does not mean I am recommending, espousing whatsoever that-but when your mind drifts to that side of the conflict, what do you picture not being together, what does that look like to you?

CLIENT: It feels scary. But if I think about it in a very abstract way I think... you know, what if I would... what would I do with all that energy, all the energy that I put into stressing and worrying and... I know it sounds silly, but going to couples' counseling every week for... we've been seeing Dr. Farrow for over a year. I mean, like...

THERAPIST: Isn't that silly?

CLIENT: It's a lot.

THERAPIST: [unclear]

CLIENT: And having special conversations, and just working on so many things, working, working, struggling, struggling, struggling, struggling.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. [24:00]

CLIENT: Like where would I be?

THERAPIST: And when you say scary, what comes to mind about what's scary about it?

CLIENT: I don't want to get divorced. And in my gut I don't feel like it's really possible for me at this point. Which is also scary. And then sometimes I think: but I don't have to make a life or death decision today. If in another year Ivan is still doing these things I can choose to move on.

THERAPIST: It's important though, because I think to the degree that you actually when it boils down to it feel like, I just couldn't leave him right now, I couldn't.

CLIENT: No, it's not that I... I don't know if it's that I couldn't, it's that I wouldn't. Right now I feel like I'm still in a very emotionally like hot state. It's still very recent.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: And I also think back on... I don't know if it's dumb or whatever, but in those three months when things got to be so consistently good over and over, and we were still having these good old conversations about the stuff...

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: ... it still felt like the positive time was outweighing the negative, it still felt like if all this positive time continues and continues and continues at some point the bank will be balanced, as it were. And I thought, I'm so glad that I didn't just divorce him. You know, even if I would have felt justified in the moment because what he did was horrible, I'm so glad that I stuck around and gave it somewhat of a chance. Because, while marriage can feel like the most permanent thing in the world when something horrible happens, and you can feel stuck, I was thinking, you know, I didn't maybe realize divorce could also be... you know, it would be so permanent.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And not just a way of saying this is unacceptable, I have limitations, I don't want to deal with this. It's saying more than that. It's saying, I don't want all the positive stuff with you either anymore. So that has crossed my mind, that it would probably be unwise to make a hasty... not a... [26:10]

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm. Because there was so much change in those three months, it sort of... that's another part that gives you... it's one thing. Let's say for example nothing really happened, he wasn't making an effort, no conversations, not picking you up, not dinner, et cetera, and then this happened, you'd be in a very different place I think.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So that's not what happened either. So it does sound like you're just... you're in aware in a way that you need time right now.

CLIENT: I do. But it's kind of... So Ivan has been very vocal about wanting to really make efforts, and like willing to do things. And I finished my huge project very late Friday night, and so Ivan's like, "Why don't I take you to dinner Monday night and we'll celebrate that you don't have to stay late every night anymore, and you don't have to..." And it was so hard. And I still haven't really said much about it, because it's so sweet and thoughtful and exactly the type of thing that I had wanted, but it's also so terrifying, because if I do that I feel like what if he's getting the message it's okay? Or what if I am being a doormat, or what if I am being that... you kind of drew a parallel earlier to the, "I love you, here are flowers, I'm so sorry I beat you." It's not the same thing, but what if that's the type of thing?

THERAPIST: Well, what do you think, would it be? Going to dinner tonight?

CLIENT: I don't know. It's so scary. I know that sounds bizarre, that going to dinner with my husband is scary, but...

THERAPIST: No, no, I understand completely.

CLIENT: It's like... it's hard to let him back in.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yesterday my friends had a get together, and I debated over and over, like, should I take him, should I not take him? What should I do? [28:00]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: What do I tell my friends if in, you know, two months he assaults me again and I decide I have to leave him and they're like, "But you were just at our get together for the Super Bowl like two months ago with him." Those are the types of things that go through my mind. But then I also thought, you know, if I'm going to "try on" getting divorced mentally, what if I try on having the good three months back mentally.

THERAPIST: Mm hm. Mm hm.

CLIENT: But it was kind of nice.

THERAPIST: He was?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That side is just as important. The question too is what do you picture staying together? What does that feel like? Just staying together and saying you're going to work on it. How do you feel about it?

CLIENT: It feels scary. I did tell Ivan then. In the couples session I did say like that I felt pretty clear that if he ever assaulted me again that I would have to leave, that it wouldn't be a choice for me really, that I wouldn't have a choice.

THERAPIST: You said that?

CLIENT: And it felt like I didn't completely believe myself. Because it's just so hard. I don't know how to explain it, and I'm obviously exceptionally confused and ambivalent about the whole thing, but it's so hard to turn that switch. Like the night we go to bed happy and hopeful, and boy, those things were terrible, but we are really getting on track, waking up and feeling like I'm wasting my time.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: It's so hard to flip that switch. And I'm worried, could I do that? So that feels... But it also feels a little bit safe. Because I'm like, well, if I agree to work on it and Ivan does that again I don't have to keep working on it, I don't have to keep putting myself through this. [30:00]

THERAPIST: Mm hm. The heart doesn't work with [sutures?]. When you say it's so hard, it just doesn't do that. And people try sometimes, when people like impulsively get divorced, they're trying for the switch that wasn't there, and that's why they later realize, "Oh, what did I do?" You know. I think it is your [health?], Ramona, that you're trying to keep everything there and know that even... even if he did it again, you still might need time internally in your heart to let that sink in and let the consequences of it sink in and to evaluate the scale. Do you know what I mean? I just don't think... I think you're saying I'm not sure that if he did that tonight, tomorrow you would say, okay, we'll get out. That is a kind of switch that then it... it's almost pretending that there are no loving good feelings. Getting divorced, if people get divorced in a healthy way, is really, really painful work. Because there were feelings that brought two people together that don't all go away usually. You know, in rare situations they do. But it's a kind of scale that's going like this, which means there's still a lot of good feelings. So I think you're being honest with yourself. But you're also trying to say to him, "I want you to know how important this is that this not happen again."

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: Which I think is a really important communication for him to hear. How did he respond? Does he get that?

CLIENT: Yeah. But that scares me a little, because I feel like... I thought he got it before. I thought it was even unspoken, you know, very understood. [32:00]

THERAPIST: Mm hm. So what... I also wonder what happens then if you say to him, "Okay, last time I thought you got it. Can you explain to me why this time you really get it?" Like what does he have to say to that? Convince me that now you really get it, because I thought so before.

CLIENT: That's the thing, it's so hard. Because now Ivan'll say, you know, like, "I get it." Or he'll say, "I'm telling you the truth about this." And I'm like, what does that mean? Our trust has been broken again. So it's like... he could... you know, it's great if it happens as long as, "I mean it, I mean it, I get it." It's not... it has to be backed up.

THERAPIST: Well, yes. But you know how people can say something and you get it, and then they can say it a slightly different way and then you really feel like that's a person who gets it. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: It's like imagine you're talking to somebody who's in a level 100 class in college and they really get the subject matter-right, for that level they really get it-but then you talk to them when they're in their senior year and they're deep in the subject matter, then they get it so much more deeply in a way that you really think they're an expert in that now where they weren't freshman year, even though they may have gotten an A in the class and they really got it for that level. I can imagine he thought he got it, he said something pretty convincing, but you're trying to also listen for what... like what is he now understanding this time around that he didn't get before? Can he articulate what the difference is, and what he understands better now than before? Do you know what I mean? Or if he's saying the words that are identical to what he said before, that feels like there's no change, it's really hard to trust. But you're trying to sort of hear like what does he now get that he didn't understand before. You know what I mean?

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: And that may be a question for building more trust in the couples' therapy, to see what he would say to that. In other words, not just leave it at, "I get it, I get it. I promise you I get it. I'll never do it again." Like what do you get differently now, Ivan? Help me understand how you understand it better than before. [34:15]

CLIENT: Something else that comes to mind when I think of staying and working on it-I feel like I've mentioned this before, but every time I hang out with my friends and my friend Gary is there I feel guilty. Because I always enjoy talking with Gary, and I always enjoy hearing that he's working on his Ph.D., and he's working full-time. I mean, he lives by himself, he's like very much of a bachelor. But he's responsible, he's on time, he's organized, he's mature. He's got it together. And he's not, you know, like the perfect... perfect man in the world, and Ivan has a lot of qualities that Gary doesn't.

But I always feel guilty for enjoying talking with him about like whatever studies he's working on, or whatever is going on in his class, like I always feel guilty for enjoying that so much. I guess there's a part of me that wishes that Ivan was like that. And I feel... like I feel very guilty for feeling like that. And I almost feel, not that I'm betraying Ivan, but like I shouldn't feel that way about someone else.

THERAPIST: For even having an idea or thoughts or feelings about someone having something you wish your spouse had you feel guilty?

CLIENT: Yeah. And that doesn't sound extraordinary to me.

THERAPIST: No. I mean, even if none of this happened that could be happening anyway, Ramona. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Right, but I would still feel guilty or feel like I needed to feel guilty. But the truth is, deep down I don't know how... I feel like Ivan probably knows this, but even if Ivan had never assaulted me, never done any of that... and I get that part of the reason why he's working at Subway is because he... like his life is kind of consumed with working on these huge, huge things that have been issues for many years. But I would never be satisfied with him being satisfied with these things, whatever that makes me. I would never... if Ivan was content working at Subway until he was in his 80s, like I would just never be satisfied. If it was his life's dream and that he was passionate about it and that was truly all he ever wanted to be, you know, like that would be very different. But it bothers me, him leaving grad school and not... not ever, you know, thinking about transferring those courses and finishing some kind of program, or starting a new one, or even just like volunteering or interning somewhere to do something with his education. It bothers me deeply.

And I worry that that makes me a snob, or it makes me judgmental, or critical, or superficial. But it's how I feel. I actually feel... like I do wish that... You know, that everyone has to get their Ph.D. and do research full-time and what my friend does. But I wish there was something in between at least that Ivan did. And I totally... on a very realistic logistical level I would not encourage Ivan to go looking for a new job right now. Like if he's really going to work on his stuff it's a lot. But ultimately I would feel more attracted to him and I would feel proud. Not that I'm not proud... you know, not that I'm like ashamed that he works at Subway, I'm not. But... I don't know. Does that make any sense? [38:00]

THERAPIST: It does make sense. I mean, I think you arrive at probably one of the most important settling point feelings is feeling that you would be more attracted to him as a partner if he were doing something maybe more similar to what you're doing. I don't mean the field, but kind of peer education-wise. Or peer maybe even ambition and interest-wise. And we talked about that a while ago, that if Subway were his dream job, and he really wanted to manage a store and maybe become an owner, that that would feel so much more attractive than feeling like this big... a kind of default because nothing else worked.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Sort of seeing your spouse, wanting to see your spouse as a competent driven person...

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: ... is part of what's attractive to you. And there will be other people where that's not important to them in attractiveness. So I don't... I think this isn't... it's not so much value judgment as much as who you are and what feels important to you, Ramona. And you're allowed to have that as yours. You know what I mean? [pause] When you say this is a lot of work right now, do you mean like appointments? Is that what you're talking about?

CLIENT: Yeah, that's part of it for sure. You know, it sounds silly maybe to you, or to Dr. Farrow, but, you know, taking that much time. I guess that could take like four hours a week, if I count like traveling and... just to do therapy. And I'm young.

THERAPIST: Oh, I'm not talking you, I'm talking about him though.

CLIENT: His appointment?

THERAPIST: Yeah. When you say I wouldn't want him to make changes right now.

CLIENT: Oh. No.

THERAPIST: Because he's so wrapped up in [overtalk]. [40:00]

CLIENT: Well, I mean he... Yes. I mean, he goes to see Dr. Bourd once a week, he sees Dr. Farrow once a week, he sees Dr. Bellamy every few weeks. And he's supposed to be journaling and scheduling conversations for his doc. And like he's making dinner every night and like doing his half of the chores, and I know that...

THERAPIST: So that feels like that's actually taking on a lot for where he's been?

CLIENT: Well, I know that that's supposed to be baseline, but for Ivan going from, you know, "I slept 15 hours a day in grad school and failed out," to, "I make dinner every night, I do my chores, I'm working on these deep character things that have been with me for over ten years. And I'm working on my marriage, and I'm holding down a relatively full-time job in a leadership position," that that's never happened to him before. That's... he was relatively...

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. [inaudible] And how attracted you are to him then, and how proud you feel or don't feel about who he is-[I mean, that's based on you?]-is another thing that goes into this scale, right? You know, if that was the only problem, but he was... you know, maybe became like the person who cooked and cleaned at home, right. And so he was taking up a kind of family responsibility for your unit that you felt like that's something that tips the scales back. Do you know what I mean? Like that I can feel proud of that, I can feel taken care of, I can feel he's being responsible, even if it's not to an employment, it's to our home.

CLIENT: Well, and even him do[ing]... maybe I read too much into it, but him taking on all of that makes me feel like the more he's getting it together the more he could have the capacity to get out of Subway and get into something career related.

THERAPIST: Absolutely. Absolutely. So you're just kind of letting that realm of feelings exist in this scale right now. And you are aware I think of what's hard about it is the scale's just kinda like this at the moment, there are lots of different factors. And maybe even each day and each conversation can tip it a little this way or a little that way, depending on how it goes, and you're trying to accrue more and more data over time about how it feels. What you can do is keep honoring having your feelings and being... like noticing them and thinking of them is important, all of them. Good, bad, angry, happy, they're all really important. We can stop. I will see you next week? [42:30]

CLIENT: Mm hm.

THERAPIST: The... did I ever hear...

CLIENT: I got your e-mail.

THERAPIST: I didn't hear back from you, right?

CLIENT: You didn't, and I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: Nope, that's okay.

CLIENT: I just [overtalk] on your e-mail. So I guess I'm wondering, I agree that not skipping would be a great idea given everything, but I'm wondering would you have any other mornings. Simply because I am thinking of being lazy and not getting up at 5:30 on my day off.

THERAPIST: Sure. No, I understand. I do not, because I'm away Wednesday, Thursday, Friday.

CLIENT: Oh, I see. So Tuesday's your only full day?

THERAPIST: Tuesday's a pretty full day until 3:00. There is a chance I will have a Monday late afternoon appointment, but I don't know about that for sure. I don't know if that would make any difference.

CLIENT: Late afternoon, meaning?

THERAPIST: Four o'clock.

CLIENT: I could leave... yeah, I could leave... yes, definitely.

THERAPIST: Okay, that would be better if it were open?

CLIENT: Yeah, that would be wonderful.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: But it is a couple weeks away, so I don't know...

THERAPIST: It is a couple weeks away. And that's why I can let you know when I know that. Do you want me to assume then we will not do 7:30 if there isn't anything else?

CLIENT: I guess if there is nothing else then I think that's what I need to do.

THERAPIST: Well, it's up to you. You shouldn't need to do that because I think you need to be here, or if you...

CLIENT: No, no, I'm agreeing with you that I need one, but I guess I'm... like is that trying to be lazy, just because I've been working 60 hours every week and I'm tired.

THERAPIST: You're [unclear] exhausted.

CLIENT: It's okay. No, [unclear] there.

THERAPIST: Ramona. Ramona, that's legitimate. It's like this [scale?], go to therapy, get to sleep, these things are important. So if you want to keep thinking about it. You don't have to tell me exactly right now, I'll let you know as soon as I know about the 4:00.

CLIENT: Yeah, whenever you would know that would be ideal I think. So...

THERAPIST: Okay.

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