TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: You got my . . ?

CLIENT: I did.

THERAPIST: And everything makes sense?

CLIENT: It looks like it, yes. Thank you.

THERAPIST: What’s on your mind?

CLIENT: I guess a few things. Overall, things have been going pretty well and we had a productive, helpful couple of sessions last week.

THERAPIST: That’s good.

CLIENT: Some things are going really well. I spent most of Saturday with my friends and that was nice. Ivan, in fact, went over with me and hung out with them. [00:01:06] My really good girlfriend from grad school’s boyfriend lives with her, and he and Ivan got together to play games and one of their other friends joined, so that was good for him. Thursday and Friday, Ivan was having a pretty rough time saying he felt really down and he felt like he was thinking about hurting himself and just felt really disappointed in himself. Thursday, that took kind of a different shape that was difficult for me to respond to, but good maybe. A lot of times, Ivan has slept most of the day or coped in different ways.

THERAPIST: When he’s feeling like that?

CLIENT: But on Thursday, he went to the gym, he watched a couple of documentaries, he got out. It sounds bizarre and is bizarre, but his uncle has wire to make chain mail, something to do with your hands. [00:02:01] He did that and that’s kind of how he spent a good portion of the day while I was away.

THERAPIST: A much healthier coping method than sleeping.

CLIENT: Yes. I don’t know if I did a great job of responding to that because, on the one hand, I told him it sounded like a much better way to cope than curling up and sleeping all day. On the other hand, I felt a little frustrated because I had a super long day on Thursday. I was gone for over 13 hours. The one thing Ivan was supposed to be doing this week was faxing his loan forms because he got behind on renewing his payment plan and has been making payments, so he really needed to do that and he didn’t do it on Thursday because he did these other things. It was tough because I wanted to be encouraging that he found more adaptive or healthy ways to deal with feeling like that during the day. [00:03:06] But on the other hand, I felt like that was a long day, a long time that he had and I didn’t quite know how to find room to also say, “I get that and it sounds like it was tough and you dealt with it well. At the same time, you still really need to take care of this one thing that’s been put off for a really long time.”

THERAPIST: How about that way?

CLIENT: (chuckles) Because I kind of said that to some extent. Ivan knows that to some extent. It’s just hard because, maybe it’s just my perception, but it feels like if I say anything negative about him just taking the day to relax and do fun things and go to the gym and do all these really great things – that sounds like a good day, in general, and a good way to cope – it feels like I’m saying how dare you relax? You are so overdue on this form that you’ve got to do this. [00:04:02] I don’t want to do that and I’ve told Ivan I don’t want to actually talk about his form with him at all. It’s his form and he should just be doing it. I don’t want to slip back into the pattern where I mom him and he resents it and both of us are angry and it’s still not done. On Friday, I got home and he was kind of down. I asked if he had faxed the form and he was like, “They asked me to stay late at work. I really needed to stay late to do the deposits, but I did call.” He showed me his phone and he called at like 4:15 or 4:30. Eventually, what came out was because I had said, “Wait a minute. I thought you said you called them the other days and it doesn’t look like they’re here.” He was like, “Well . . .” Eventually he came forward and I tried to tell him it’s always better to tell me the truth and we’ll deal with it, rather than avoiding it or hiding it. [00:05:07] That’s always going to be a worse outcome, no matter what the truth is. He was like, “Well, I did call. When I told you that I called a couple of times earlier in the week, I really did, but I got put on hold,” which is what happens when you call a loan company. You do get put on hold. It’s a painful process. He was like, “I hung up because I was seventh in line.” I was like, “Yeah, there is a very big difference between saying ‘I called.’” Obviously the other person would believe that you spoke to someone and actually had a call versus saying I called and, basically, you dialed. (scoffs) So I told him that I was really glad that he told me the truth. I tried to go back over our steps. I was really glad that you told me the truth, that I really appreciated that, that I understood that it was difficult. [00:06:02] I have spent a very long time on the phone with a loan – it’s very aggravating that you do have to wait a long time; that I sympathized. Then I also did just say, “But I’m really disappointed that you lied because I would have much rather that you had told me. Even the day it happened, instead of just saying ‘I called,’ just tell me.” “Right. I know I can’t just hang up, but that’s what I did.” So we talked about that and I told him that I sensed that there was maybe more and he was staring at the floor and, obviously, struggling. Eventually he said, “I lied. I wasn’t asked to stay late. I volunteered to stay late. I found myself feeling really, really down and I was thinking of hurting myself so I called my dad from the store and he said that I should stay with people and do whatever I needed to do to feel a little better; so I volunteered to stay late.” [00:07:05]

THERAPIST: And you were still working?

CLIENT: I was at work.

THERAPIST: You weren’t at home anyway?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: It’s funny that he would like about that. That’s a really adaptive thing he did.

CLIENT: I even said, “You could have called me at work.” He was like, “Well, I didn’t want to worry you. I didn’t want to make a problem for you and for you to be disappointed. I didn’t want to bother you at work.” And I said, “You know, it’s true. Maybe I don’t know. It depends on the day. I couldn’t necessarily drop everything and leave or drop everything and spend a lot of time on the phone, but I could have at least suggested that you stay late at work or I could have – anything.” I think he’s definitely doing some things that are a lot more healthy to cope with it, but I am sad that he’s still feeling that down sometimes. [00:08:04] Ironically, it’s just kind of hard because the things that he’s feeling down about seem to largely be he realized the loans were pretty disappointing. He’s put it off for so long that they started withdrawing from his account a huge amount because he just didn’t do the income-based repayment plan; so they will just eventually start charging you. He was overdrawn on his account. It’s hard because I think he feels really terrible about that and he feels really down about it. But then it’s hard because it kind of feeds itself maybe? I will say I gave him a lot of credit then on Friday because I sat with him and hugged him and just put my arms around him. I told him I loved him. I told him I was really sorry that he was having such a rough day and feeling so down, but that maybe he should just shoot Dr. Bourd an e-mail telling him he’s feeling really down, even if it’s not going to do anything until he sees him on Tuesday. Just to be able to do that. [00:09:12] I was really proud because after that, I sat with him for a while and then after that he was like, “I’m going to go online and do some of this form and get some of the numbers from our tax return.”

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: So he really did Friday and I even offered – we didn’t do our taxes yet, but we have most of our forms. “Do you want me to sit down? We can do the numbers like we did last year.” He was like, “No, this is really my responsibility. If I need this number for my form, I’ll do it.” I was really impressed. I eventually fell asleep in the chair (chuckles) in the living room and when I woke up, he had come back from printing off more of his form and preparing it and he brought pizza home. [00:10:00] It was later in the evening, but we were going to have a date on Friday and then it kind of got taken over by him finally doing some of this. But that was really nice. To my knowledge, he finished the form over the weekend and now he is going to fax it and that’s great. It’s just hard because I want to really, really acknowledge when he is making huge changes like going to the gym and doing that type of stuff, as opposed to sleeping all day. That’s really huge, but I guess I don’t want to always be looking for a place to critique or always be critiquing, but I also want a place to say, “If you feel really down about doing the form or if not doing it is causing consequences like you being overdrawn, this really needs to happen; and I’m disappointed that you lied.” [00:10:56]

THERAPIST: And yet, Ramona, the way you’re describing it to me – and I don’t know if this is how you were feeling it and expressing it to him in the heat of the moment – but you really sound like you genuinely feel both sides. In other words, a year ago, in the beginning of our starting to work together, what I think would have happened in this kind of circumstance is that you might have known intellectually “I should make sure he knows I’m happy he did not fall asleep all day.” But the thing that would have been most alive for you emotionally would have been rage and frustration and disappointment, so that the thing that he would feel from you is that. The way you’re talking about it right now, it just doesn’t feel that way. I feel that you feel disappointed and that you are frustrated, but I don’t feel like as you’re talking about it, that that is the only thing you’re feeling. I think you’re also feeling excited and proud of him that he would pick some of these more adaptive things. [00:12:01]

CLIENT: It’s huge.

THERAPIST: You actually feel that.

CLIENT: It’s really huge. It’s a big, big, big change for Ivan and I, at least, feel good about the part of me that was able to do that. “Thank you for telling me the truth. I want you to keep understanding that whatever it is, it’s always going to work out better if you just come to me and tell me the truth and then we work on it and deal with it together.”

THERAPIST: That’s a big, big, big change for you. It’s not just that you’re saying that and giving lip service, Ramona. You sound like you get it and you feel it. You do know it’s so much better that he told you the truth. You do know that what he did was so much better than sleeping, and that’s enormous for him and you can also feel really disappointed that he still didn’t get to the form. And you can say to him, Ivan, this is a place where it becomes a self-fulfilling snowballing prophesy because if you just get to that form, the very thing that’s creating you feeling down would go away.” [00:13:06] I just hear you holding the complexity of his action and not just seeing it as black or white. If I see that and feel that, I’m absolutely imagining he must, too.

CLIENT: I hope so. I do wonder. I say how I really appreciate it and I’m glad that he told me the truth and I understand that he’s having such a tough time and I’m sorry that he’s feeling that way and, of course, I want to be there to support and encourage him doing healthy things for it and getting help for it. And then following it with “I am disappointed that you lied to me. I wish you would have told me the truth in the beginning.” Or even, “I am disappointed that it’s not done yet. It really needs to get done.” What I said to him last night was, “How do you want to take care of dealing with it? Because I don’t want us to get back into that cycle.” [00:14:01] It feels good for me. I don’t know how it feels for him to still hear the “I’m disappointed that it doesn’t happen,” but for me I feel a lot better about saying it crystal clear; just “I’m really disappointed that it doesn’t happen” versus getting really angry or expressing inappropriate criticism. And I don’t feel like I need to when it’s so clear. I’m just saying I’m really disappointed in that. It’s not a big, drawn out thing.

THERAPIST: There’s another way of putting it, I think. You’re also not as drawn deeply into a kind of [transfer instinct] (ph?) towards Ivan, where he is your parents disappointing you once again exactly, so that the only thing you can see is red towards him. [00:15:00] You’re holding onto who he is as Ivan, which is actually really disappointing, in some ways, and making huge changes that are really hard for people to make and some people go through their whole lives without making. I think you’re seeing him more just for him, with his complexity. The reason I think he must hear this change in you is that he responded by doing his forms. In other words, it isn’t good for him or you if the only thing you did was cheerlead the changes he made. That’s what his parents have done and it actually has not served him at all to have no one saying “awesome on these fronts; here are the parts you still need to work on.” Right? They never did that part for him and it has destroyed his capacity to face difficult things. It’s known that he’s become extremely avoidant and you’re trying to say “I’m not going to avoid the fact that this is still here, but I’m also not going to trash you because of the fact this is still here,” because there is so much more going on than just that, too. [00:16:10] I think the fact that you held compassionately and lovingly both sides – even the criticism was held with love. The way you’re saying it right now is really very constructive. You’re trying to say, “Here is my reaction to it and I really think [that we’re seeing a good step] (ph?) to get to this; and me, too. I’m in this, too. It’s our money.” He goes and does it – on his own, without being mad.

CLIENT: No, he is making a lot of big changes.

THERAPIST: And so are you.

CLIENT: I hope so. The fact that he did fun stuff or the gym – that’s not necessarily fun – but he did that type of stuff instead of sleeping, I realize part of my reaction was, “Wait a minute. I’ve been working. I worked a long day today and you’re doing this.” [00:17:04] But then the other part of it was that it did feel different, what he actually did during the day. Even though he didn’t do the form, it was different than sleeping all day and I was reminded of . . . I guess with my mom it could sometimes feel really, really tough because I would be really angry if I was the one doing all the work and she would usually spend the day in bed or spend the whole day in her PJs or whatever; because at some point you get angry, even if it’s genuine that your parent has depression and really doesn’t feel like seeing anyone or doing anything. You feel some compassion around that, but I guess to a point, for most of my growing up I didn’t understand what depression was and that it was a legitimate thing because she would never speak about it or acknowledge that it wasn’t just “I don’t feel like doing anything.” [00:18:12] It was a lot more serious than that. I guess that’s how it would feel or look to me as a child. It would feel like “I don’t know what’s happening. I just know I’m doing all the stuff and my mom is in bed.” It makes me angry eventually. I told Ivan I think I’ve been triggered by that sometimes because it doesn’t sound compassionate, but I guess I don’t like the way my mom’s depression has affected me or her. Of course, I don’t like seeing her live that lifestyle, but I also have hated a lot of the impacts it has made on me and I wish, again, when I think of it, it seems very non-compassionate, but I wish she wasn’t. [00:19:01] I wish she wasn’t depressed. I’m kind of angry, but it’s taken that form. A lot of times I wish that Ivan wasn’t or I wish I never was.

THERAPIST: I think you’re hard on yourself. You keep saying “I know this isn’t compassionate, but I wish she weren’t depressed or she did get out of bed.” I just don’t think that’s not a compassionate thing to say, Ramona. It would have been good for her and you if she got out of bed.

CLIENT: I know, but it’s just hard sometimes because (pause) I guess it’s hard to say I’m really worried about someone for having this medical condition, mental health state. I’m really compassionate and worried and supportive, but at the same time I hate everything about it because it affects me in such a way. [00:20:04] Even in my mind I could draw an analogy to if both your legs were in casts and you had to lay in bed all the time, your significant other or your family wouldn’t be angry that you had both your legs in casts, but they could eventually be angry that they picked up all the slack and did all your stuff for you. So I don’t know if it’s fair or not, but I definitely felt that.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I think it doesn’t just break down like that. Here’s what I want to say about it: if both your legs were in casts, they would eventually heal, right? And it’s time-limited. If she had a severe form of diabetes and, therefore, couldn’t move around much and she would get very hypoglycemic very quickly, so she sat. [00:21:05] Yes, it’s a medical issue, but there are things you can do to help it so that you can live a more functional life. Do you know what I mean? The same goes for any mental illness, including schizophrenia, a very, very 100% biological condition. You can go get treatment if it is so interfering that you can’t take care of your children or your home. For medical issues, for mental health issues, there are things you can do to help yourself and to make it better and there are ways of not doing anything so that it stays exactly the same. In other words, let’s say the cast example and you do have to have your family, for the time being, pick up the slack because, even if it’s six months or three months, even, you’re in casts. If your mother were then saying, “Ramona, I so realize you guys are having to do more. I can’t do my share and I’m sorry for that. [00:22:04] Let’s see what I can do from a sitting position. Maybe there are things I can help out with that are stationary activities.” So she was demonstrating an awareness of what she wasn’t able to do and knew she was going to physical therapy to help get her legs healed as quickly as possible; you would have such a different experience.

CLIENT: I know, but it’s really, really, really hard to approach. At least for me, it’s been really hard to approach her about any feeling, any impact that it’s had on me. Really hard to approach her about her getting any type of help or support, even if it’s completely well intentioned, even if it’s as small as seeing a neighbor down the street so that she’s not completely isolated all the time. It’s not well received. It’s received as a criticism. It does not go well and it’s really difficult because I think a part of being depressed is not even wanting to get help, necessarily. [00:23:05] That can be a part of it, so it’s just really hard.

THERAPIST: [ ] (inaudible at 00:23:12) A lot of people with depression seek help.

CLIENT: I’m not saying they don’t; I’m just saying sometimes for me . . . It seems to clearly be for my mom. It can affect motivation and can affect something as simple as finally picking up the phone and going and doing it.

THERAPIST: Yeah, but look what you’ve done with your depression. (pause)

CLIENT: I had help. My mom actually took me to my first appointment ever.

THERAPIST: You got yourself here. You got yourself to Dr. Paulaner?

CLIENT: I don’t know. I’m not trying to make Ivan all about my mom, but I just think sometimes I’m aware that I can be reactive towards that because that would be scary. [00:24:10] I can be reactive, in my mind. I didn’t get really upset with Ivan, but in my mind I did get scared that he lied, even though he technically called. But he knew as well as I did that that was a half-truth.

THERAPIST: I know that it seems like it’s splitting hairs, but it’s a little bit important that it was actually not a lie. It’s misleading.

CLIENT: Yes, it’s intentionally misleading. It’s dishonest. It is different from saying he called and not having called at all.

THERAPIST: As far as the range of offenses, it’s a little bit less than having overtly lied that he did something that he actually didn’t do.

CLIENT: It is, and it’s not a big betrayal and it’s not even something that I would categorize as – I mean, it’s not okay. It’s not okay, but within a marriage of what you’ve tried to describe as normal disappointments that will happen inevitably, I could live. [00:25:08] I could live with something that small. I’m not saying I should or I want to or that it’s okay for Ivan to lie in any capacity, but it does trigger a little bit the emotions from the other lies; but I am aware that it’s not the same and that he’s working on it and that it’s not a linear change. Anyway, that process that we went through felt good. Sunday he was pretty organized. He said, “Let’s go to church. I really want us to do that.” And that was great. We had lunch together. He went over and played video games with the guys and then we had dinner together and we had our scheduled conversation. In the afternoon, we had spent some time sitting together before he was getting ready to leave and it was nice. [00:26:05] I asked him how he would feel about kissing for a little while, and it was really nice. And then in our conversation in the evening, he said, “I feel bad. I worry that even if you’re initiating or that you’re agreeing, I feel a little like you’re just doing it because you think it’s important to me or that I need it or you’re worried what I will do if you don’t.” That felt like a really important conversation and we got into it some and I admitted to him that it could be scary for me and that I actually do worry, to some extent, if I don’t do certain things, what will happen?

THERAPIST: One of the things you can say to him [ ] (inaudible at 00:26:48) that side of it is your responsibility. For example, if you are doing it because you’re only agreeing to it or only initiating because you’re worried, that’s not his problem as much, Ramona. [00:27:08] That’s actually your choice and your thing to work on, then, here with me; and he doesn’t have to feel guilty for your choices. That’s your part. So to just be able to say, “If I do that, Ivan, I’m going to work on that and I’ll talk to you about it, but it’s what I’m doing. It’s what I’m bringing to the table then. It’s not your responsibility to take care of that part of things.”

CLIENT: He has expressed that he feels really bad for wanting that, for expressing any interest in that.

THERAPIST: Why? (laughs)

CLIENT: I told him I think we’ve both had some negative experiences, but that he does never have to feel guilty or ashamed or embarrassed or like he’s done something wrong or immoral because he wants physical contact with me. [00:28:01] That’s actually really healthy and it could be a really great, healthy part of our relationship and I’d like us to work towards that.

THERAPIST: How about in you, Ramona? Your own guilt; your own discomfort?

CLIENT: I think part of it comes from . . . I don’t know. I guess I don’t know, but I know I grew up with absolutely zero discussion about physical intimacy. Emma and I came from the stork, (scoffs) which is absolutely just none; which is bizarre considering my dad is a veterinary surgeon and my mom was a nurse. I was never comfortable discussing anything like that, very conservative, conservative people. I’m sure they grew up never discussing it either, but it was never discussed until the affair and then I learned and heard more about the affair than I ever would have wanted to know. [00:28:58]

THERAPIST: So that’s the first time that the idea of sexual context came into your relationship with your parents with words.

CLIENT: Absolutely.

THERAPIST: Ahh. Which is really difficult. Think about the first time it gets acknowledged is in a context where it actually is something that was destructive.

CLIENT: Right. It is immoral. It is something you feel guilty and ashamed about. It is disgusting. It is destructive. It is this horrible, horrible thing. Then I also grew up watching my mom sleep in different rooms of the house and refused to sleep in the bedroom with him.

THERAPIST: Anyway? Before the affair?

CLIENT: Yeah. On different occasions, she would sleep on the couch. That was a long period of time.

THERAPIST: How come? Because they were fighting?

CLIENT: Yes. I don’t know all the details, but I know sometimes he would try to bargain and try to get her to sleep in the bed again and they would have discussions about that, arguments about that.

THERAPIST: You would hear these conversations?

CLIENT: Yeah, I heard some. (chuckles) [00:29:58] Obviously, when she was sleeping in the den, library, sleeping on the couch, sleeping in other places, I guess it didn’t occur to me to worry. My parents don’t sleep together; something is really wrong. I knew things were wrong with the relationship, but it also never occurred to me that that part was healthy or important or completely without guilt or shame. And it didn’t help that I, I guess, was that type of person who would sit in the back of health class and be like none of this really matters to me and I’m not planning on having sex for years. I’m not interested. Some of my other girlfriends would do that, too. We were in high school and we weren’t planning on having sex in high school, which might be unusual today, but I had no interest. So I obviously didn’t discuss it with my friends. Same thing in college. [00:30:57]

THERAPIST: How about if we forget sex, formal sex for a time? What about other parts of boys, crushes, kissing – did that come up in friendships or with your parents?

CLIENT: In my friendships, yes. I had boyfriends and we would make out and that was fine and good.

THERAPIST: [ ] (inaudible at 00:31:16) And that was good?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That didn’t feel like you were doing something wrong?

CLIENT: Sometimes it did. Sometimes it did.

THERAPIST: But sometimes it didn’t – or it always did?

CLIENT: It always felt like something to be just a little embarrassed about or guilty about or something very private that you wouldn’t acknowledge in public necessarily.

THERAPIST: That’s so sad.

CLIENT: It is what it is, but I’m just saying I don’t know as I ever saw it as something that could be really embraced.

THERAPIST: Healthy.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I think if it’s a taboo subject for a really long time and it’s something that shouldn’t even be crossing your mind and shouldn’t even be something you discuss, let alone do, obviously, you don’t flip a switch when you get married and it’s now this wonderful, healthy thing that we can do. [00:32:12] It doesn’t. And then Ivan and I had a pretty strange experience on our honeymoon and we just never really, I guess, had gotten good at incorporating that into our marriage. Part of it could be just natural. When we were dating we would date, even if it was renting a movie. We would naturally end up making out or kissing or holding hands or snuggling or whatever. But it would stem from having a positive experience, getting to talk a lot and, also, the absence of all the responsibilities that now we share. [00:33:00] So when we were dating, we never would have argued about Ivan’s loan form. So many of these things just wouldn’t have ever been on the radar.

THERAPIST: And in the beginning – dating and making out on the couch – even though there might have been a slight voice of this being something not to talk about or that has some uncertain feelings about it, did it feel good? Would you enjoy it?

CLIENT: Yes. Yes. Absolutely. Yes.

THERAPIST: It didn’t feel like it was what you were supposed to be doing?

CLIENT: No. It didn’t feel like an obligation. No. It was mutual.

THERAPIST: How far did it go physically before sex? In other words, before getting married? Was it only making out? Did you ever take your clothes off?

CLIENT: (laughs) No, we never took our clothes off.

THERAPIST: All the bases – touching each other’s bodies? No?

CLIENT: Ivan would touch my breasts. [00:33:58]

THERAPIST: On the inside?

CLIENT: Sometimes. Actually, did that ever happen? I guess very, very, very rarely.

THERAPIST: How was that?

CLIENT: It was nice. It was great. I mean, Ivan and I have enjoyed having physical contact with each other. It didn’t go further than that.

THERAPIST: It’s really important, even going back to that point, because that’s the start of sexual intimacy, right? Kissing, touching breasts, just touching alone before you’re getting to [ ] (inaudible at 00:34:30). Up to that point, you were both experiencing it as a fun thing to do. It felt good, right? So something about bringing in intercourse or that somehow it turns uncomfortable or was there a point after your [ ], which I know was really difficult, then in the next year did it get better? [00:34:59]

CLIENT: It didn’t, and I always hoped that it could. But then with the stress – in that winter, Ivan stopped his construction job and started his restaurant job. And then there was a period where he didn’t have a job and wasn’t working 40 hours a week, wasn’t helping with the stuff around the apartment; and then eventually finding out about seminary and it just felt like so much was going on. I’ve never figured out how to – I guess now I’m starting to – but how to integrate something like . . . I don’t know. It always felt like having physical intimacy or even agreeing to a date or suggesting something like that would have been pretty much saying, not that it’s black and white, but yeah oh, you just told me you lied about grad school for years? Oh, okay. Let’s go . . . [00:36:01] That just never would have worked and we might now be at a place where I hope it’s all in our past and we can keep talking about it and working on it, but that we can also keep moving forward. I’m not completely sure. Something I’ve talked about with Ivan was that I would really like for him to be able to sleep in the bed and that would be great. But I’m also really scared. I don’t want that to happen again, so what do we do? Does he even think of something with Dr. Bourd If he starts to feel that again, does he get up and walk around? Does he go write about it in his journal? Does he go sleep on the couch for the rest of the night? What do we do just so that doesn’t happen again? Something I guess I wanted to ask you: it is bizarre, probably. [00:37:00] What would happen if Ivan and I continue to do what we did before it happened the last time and continue to build up having positive time and build up levels of having some physical contact? What would happen if then we continued having more physical contact or even started having sex again? Would Ivan still feel tempted to do that? Or does it come out of almost a desperation that he’s ashamed of, like he’s ashamed of even wanting or thinking about wanting that or halfway about it and it’s really, truly never happening? If that wasn’t the case – I’m not saying it’s my fault or his fault . . .

THERAPIST: It’s a good question because I hope I can respond in a way that I’m going to convey what I’m thinking. [00:37:59] If you were to reach the point in your relationship where the two of you were having regular sexual intimate contact that you were both enjoying and felt healthy and integrated, even alongside being annoyed at each other for things and disappointed in each other for things, but having enough positive that it feels like sex is something that you want to do with each other part of the time, I would think that the part of him that was doing it the way it’s come out, in a more assaultive way, that would have already been taken care of anyway. How do I explain this? I don’t think it’s just that okay, Ramona, if you finally get comfortable and you say, “Okay, we can have sex twice a week” or something, that that means that it’s all in your court to change this part of him. I think it’s as much if not more his responsibility that there is something in him that is conflicted about getting to have a good sexual relationship with you. [00:39:03] That has nothing to do with you. You can be saying yes and doing it and if he still feels like “I’m bad. This is bad for me to want.” That part of him would still make him avoidant of doing it in the aboveground way, whether you want it or not. So that’s the part that I think is more actually more important for both of you is how you keep working individually on understanding why this got such a bad rap and how to continue and allow this to feel like a really good thing that couples share with each other that is just a further, the most intimate extension of feeling close to someone. It’s sharing your bodies. It’s as close as you can get and shouldn’t be happening if you’re not feeling close and all there is, is anger, but if there are moments of a close, intimate evening that land in getting even closer like that. [00:40:07] So that’s what I think is the thing that is probably generating it, more than just simply saying . . . I guess I’m just trying to say to you it’s not just “oh, if he would only come around, then he would stop doing that.” Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess I’m trying to continually think of how to move forward and move towards that. I think maybe it’s something that he and I should discuss with Dr. Farrow. We both feel bad and ashamed of this and really it’s something healthy that we have nothing to feel bad about. What do we do about that?

THERAPIST: I think it’s a great topic, even just by bringing it up with each other. You are implicitly saying when you bring it up “I don’t think this has to be so bad.” So if he starts hearing you say “what’s our hang-up about this?” that that alone can start helping him ease this punitive, very critical voice in both of you about this part of being in emotional contact. [00:41:12] I think just talking about it would start to help that part of him lessen, too. (pause) Even if you ask him [jokingly, “What do you think it’s so wrong?”] (ph?)

CLIENT: I think we both kind of have a grasp on that. His dad is a pastor, which doesn’t necessarily mean anything, but his dad, before we got married, asked him, “Is it getting hard for you and Ramona to not have sex? Is it hard to wait? All of our friends, including the bishop, had sex before they got married and they really regretted it; and we waited.” And I’m glad that Ivan and I waited and I don’t think that, in itself, has to be a shaming thing but it felt like . . . [00:42:01]

THERAPIST: That’s the thing about it, I don’t think waiting has to be shaming or has to make sex a bad thing. I mean it can, but it doesn’t have to.

CLIENT: It did for us somehow.

THERAPIST: And it did for you. And that’s the thing I think you both have to get more at because a parent can talk about waiting or encourage waiting in a way that really upholds the sexual encounter as a really beautiful, miraculous and special thing that you could be so excited to share with someone when you’re married. But there is a way that you somehow didn’t get that message. Something is going awry in the waiting part, as though it’s something so shameful that you just have to put it off as long as possible or something. (pause) In your family, did your parents talk about waiting?

CLIENT: No. It was assumed, understood. So many things were assumed and understood. [00:43:01] They also never talked to us about not drinking underage. They also never talked to us about not smoking or not doing drugs. At one point, my mom told me about a story. She was engaged and was so sure that they were getting married and had sex with him. And then she found out that he was writing to someone else and broke it off and it was devastating.

THERAPIST: When did she tell you this?

CLIENT: Maybe I was in high school. But never “sex is really a healthy, wonderful part of a relationship” or that physical contact is. These are things that are really okay and good to do as a high-schooler dating and these are things that are really special to wait for. Again, my parents just never would talk about that in any way, shape or form.

THERAPIST: They only talk about it as something they regretted. This is the other side of it. I think there is a really different side of it. [00:44:04] There is the angle of what you’re being taught about it; but there is also the angle of how, then, is sex quietly being conceived of and dealt with in the family? For example, the fact that Ivan’s parents are talking so much about it with him or the story that your mother is telling you. I know you’re in high school, but your mother, still, at that age telling you the story about having sex with someone and then regretting it; it’s a little inappropriate. I say that because that can also give you kind of “ugh.” If you’re the adolescent girl hearing your mom talking about having sex with someone . . .

CLIENT: It’s not like she mentioned anything. She just said it happens. But it also is kind of bizarre because, for example, she was 41 when she had me and she and my dad miscarried between Emma and me and she tried to get pregnant for like a year and a half. [00:45:02] She was like, “I tried everything. I was so determined. We wanted another baby so badly.” Ironically, even then it’s not acknowledged that sex is part of trying to have a baby and a normal, healthy, wonderful thing for two people to do. I guess I haven’t heard it in a positive context and certainly, even now, I have a co-worker who will openly at lunch talk about sex with her boyfriend. She’s worried that they’re no longer having sex like 20 times a week and is that bad? And I’m like oh, my gosh. (both chuckle) None of my close friends outside of her would ever talk about it or acknowledge it and I was just kind of like you don’t do that. It’s a private thing. So I don’t know.

THERAPIST: So even just any attempt at being so taboo can’t be spoken about at all. There is some hidden message that it is shameful [ ] (inaudible at 00:45:59) into words; instead of that it’s private and that you can choose to share private parts of yourself when you’re comfortable. Some of these most special parts of a person – like bodies. It’s a really complicated a development teaching kids, for example, that you don’t go around naked. How do you teach that message without making a child then feel ashamed of her vagina or her butt or that these are very special parts, instead of so bad that we must hide them from society. Do you know what I mean? It sounds like a really [helpful] (ph?) conversation for the two of you. That, alone, is starting a new kind of intimacy, to start talking about it together. You’re breaking old patterns. Have a nice weekend.

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