TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: It's a very lovely morning.

CLIENT: Is this your effort to (inaudible) brand of blue?

THERAPIST: (laughs) I don't know, it's sort of like a traditional thing.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: You've got like a little cloth or napkin or something. Woody Allen actually wrote a (inaudible) about it (inaudible).

CLIENT: (laughs) I will look that up. That that's really funny.

THERAPIST: I think it was he he wrote it. Somebody did. I think it was him, for The New Yorker.

CLIENT: Uh-huh. Well the other option is to just like have all your patients keep their own individual pillows here.

THERAPIST: Huh. Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Which is not something that I which is something that I have thought about before.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: But I think that would be kind of an imposition though.

THERAPIST: Hmm. You're welcome to bring your own pillow, if you like.

CLIENT: And keep it here?

THERAPIST: Sure. You could probably keep it under the couch.

CLIENT: Wow. Cool. How many patients do you have?

THERAPIST: Um (pause) I don't really know. Uh (pause) 25 or 30.

CLIENT: Whoa.

THERAPIST: (inaudible) 25, something like that.

CLIENT: So you see like five to seven a day? Five to ten a day?

THERAPIST: Um (pause) under ten.

CLIENT: Wow. (pause) Ok.

THERAPIST: That seems like a lot?

CLIENT: Yeah. It seems like you would have to be really, really strong. And like sturdy.

THERAPIST: Hmm. (pause)

CLIENT: I mean, isn't that why you go through so much of your own training?

THERAPIST: Yeah, that's part of it.

CLIENT: Because like if you feel like yourself swinging like from one extreme to another all the time with every patient, that feels unsustain not sustainable.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: That's one thing that I've thought about. The other thing is -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: what if you're just like a shell? (pause) I don't think that's possible -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: but to have gone through so many years of analysis and to be absorbing so much from so many people -

THERAPIST: Would be (inaudible) you have?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Hmm. And you don't sort of have like your own reactions or inner life or something like that?

CLIENT: I don't know. I guess there's probably some degree of compartmentalization.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: But (pause) yeah, I would (inaudible) that.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I imagine a model where like things bounce off of you because you're so sturdy and strong. Or like you just take everything in and it just like passes through you. It's probably some of both.

THERAPIST: I guess I wouldn't be that available, either way, really.

CLIENT: Yes, you're clearly not unavailable.

THERAPIST: Is that what it's like?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Huh.

CLIENT: I mean, I think I have a sense of who you are from the from like some a handful of interactions where I think your personality has come through.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Um, but yeah. I think I I feel like you're unavailable.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: To me, possibly because there's such a big contrast between how much I want to know and how intimate I feel like I want to be.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And so that's on one extreme. And you're sort of trying to be a little bit neutral, and that seems like a really big distance.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: I told Jeremy that I just mentioned that I wanted I told you that I wanted to know what you ate for lunch. And first he was like, ‘How much are we paying this guy for you to ask him what he's eating for lunch?'

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: ‘Why don't you make him lunch and then you will know?'

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: (laughs) Jeremy's a little pissed.

THERAPIST: (laughs) Really? Yeah.

CLIENT: But then it occurred to me that I don't like it's not that I haven't asked you if this were a normal interaction. I wouldn't ask you, ‘What do you eat for lunch?' It's just something that I would notice -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: about you. So it's like all of these things are missing that I would normally pick up on.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Are there things you would imagine I eat for lunch?

CLIENT: Um, yeah. I don't know though. (pause) I wonder if you ever eat couscous (laughs).

THERAPIST: (laughs) Sometimes I do eat couscous.

CLIENT: Ha!

THERAPIST: Haha! I mean, I'm sorry, I don't mean to make a guessing game out of it. Do you know why couscous?

CLIENT: Um, maybe just playing. I think couscous is important. I think that was an important guess.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But I don't it doesn't have any meaning -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: for me. Times when I have latched on to some aspect of your personality that has come through are when I said when I was talking about my interpretation of this Jewish mom guilt phenomenon, and you went into one of your rants. You were like, ‘I have no idea what you're talking about.'

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: So that was fun for me.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I don't know. Other stuff like that. I had a dream about my wedding. It was really different from all the other wedding dreams because I wasn't getting ready, I wasn't afraid, I was just there.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Have I described our wedding at all?

THERAPIST: I think you've mentioned some of the event -

CLIENT: Ok -

THERAPIST: as to what it was like.

CLIENT: well, it was like gorgeous. Like imagine hundreds of orange marigolds.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: So there's like a structure, the mundup, which is kind of like a chuppah, but -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: much bigger. And yeah, hundreds and hundreds of orange marigolds in strands -

THERAPIST: This was at your parent's house, right?

CLIENT: Yeah, in their backyard. And like you I'm I'm writing thank you notes, and I'm going to write my parents a thank you note which is just like, ‘Thank you for this, thank you for this, thank you for this,' like 280 items long.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And so I've been thinking about just all the details that they that they had to deal with and one of them was like ordering flowers from India.

THERAPIST: Wow.

CLIENT: There was orange, white teeny little flowers, also in strands. Jeremy and I were wearing these amazing pink and orange like rose, other kinds of flowers, garlands, like super heavy.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And my sari was already very, very, very heavy. So in my dream, the mundup, which normally holds like ten people -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: held held like 60 people, and we were all sitting under it and it was like every close member of my family, both sides, and my grandfather and my mom's mom, who's a Hindu priest was the priest. But then there were like three other side priests, and I was like in the middle curled up in the fetal position in all of my clothes, and I was just like there, like soaking everything up, almost immobilized by happiness. But immobilized -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: like I couldn't move. And I guess that we were all sort of waiting for something. There was some ceremony that was happening or something. It was very intense. And everybody was like talking and laughing, and there was like all this stuff being passed around, like all of these ritualistic things; coconuts, gold, flowers, rice -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: fruit, nuts, platters and platters of like jewelry.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And like so my garland was like so big and one of the side priests gave me like this tiny little garland that once I put it on, like I there was like no I was like be I was being choked.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I guess that probably wasn't a very happy feeling.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But I remember him putting it on, like ‘Ok, thanks.' And I laid back down.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Sounds very intense and completely enveloping.

CLIENT: Yeah. I wish I had been I wish the wedding didn't happen when it did. I wish it happened like it would happen later. I feel like I didn't earn it or I didn't deserve it. I was so out of control, and I didn't know anything about it and I didn't know what to do. It seems unfair to have to have to go through like two huge life changes at the same time, and have them do the opposite of synergize, like make the other thing worse. (pause) Antagonize each other. (pause) People should have weddings like 10 or 20 years after after they're married.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: It doesn't make any sense to pour that much energy into people who like don't know anything.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: And haven't I don't know. I guess it does make sense.

THERAPIST: It's not exactly like you just wasted money on (inaudible) like that?

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) Like I could have sat with so much more even now, and it's only been however long it's been. (pause) And it's uh it's just like, ‘Ahhh. Don't -'

THERAPIST: Yeah. You feel like you kind of missed out, I guess.

CLIENT: I totally missed out.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Like (inaudible) given how much there was, but almost I guess exactly because there was so much.

CLIENT: Yeah, I didn't have anyone to talk to. That was the other shitty part.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: People are not available around the time of the wedding. No one wants to like sit and chat for like two hours. I guess I had a couple of girlfriends who I'm like desperately missing right now with whom I could sort of begin to try to express what I was feeling, but people are too distracted.

THERAPIST: (inaudible) with the way people not being available made me think of what you were saying before about me not being available, and imagining that there is some echo (inaudible) back here, where you're feeling like, ‘Hey, hello! Like I'm -'

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ‘in the middle of this, you know, quote wonderful, emotional, like loving thing, and you're not even available. Like where are you?'

CLIENT: Yeah, I aren't I on the night of our last session I said I told Jeremy that you said that it had been a pleasure for you, and that meant a lot and it was really nice to hear that. And I spent some time like wondering whether I could attribute anything beyond exactly what you said, like I I think I mentioned this, like sort of just asking aloud, ‘Is my therapist my friend?' Jeremy's like, ‘No, he's not your friend.' ‘Do you think he would want to be my friend?' And Jeremy said some stuff that made a lot of sense, which is like, ‘Well, you're the therapist probably did really enjoy his time with you because you're this like innocent, sort of really, really like a blank slate when it comes to therapy and all everything that's related to it.'

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Like I came in here and had no idea about anything, and that that's that probably doesn't happen too often with as you get older, like the more time people spend in America, the more likely they are to have had some experience with a mental health professional.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Maybe, I don't know. And like I came to you at a at a pretty sort of ripe time, and I'm cute and I'm nice, and it was probably it probably was a pleasure for you. But that doesn't mean I don't know what it means. I think this is all symptomatic of such a strong attachment and that when it goes away I won't care so much what it means.

THERAPIST: Wait. Sorry. I lost -

CLIENT: Like all this questioning.

THERAPIST: About where I'm coming from?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And what I feel or think of you?

CLIENT: Yeah. That is to say I don't think it will go away if I if I if you tell me anything. I think it's this sort of like ruminating and wondering and sort of reaching out is how the how my attachment to you or for you is expressing itself.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Yeah. (pause) Yeah, for some reason, I wonder if you like I mean, maybe one reason you want to know, I guess many and various things about me, including my reaction and impressions of you, is to get lost in them, or to feel maybe more accurate would be kind of helped by that.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: A little, again, like kind of an echo of the dream about the wedding.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, it's like the difference between all of the people being at the wedding, like surrounding me and really like covering me with this blanket of love and laughter and -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: it it sort of feels like that right now, except that none of the people are there.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Or they're sort of there, but they're on the perimeter and every now and then, they sort of come and pet me or get me some water or something.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: That's a sad scene, just the way I'm imagining it in my dream.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Every square inch was like covered with just people.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And to imagine the -

THERAPIST: And flowers and stuff.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, lots of stuff.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Right. And colors.

THERAPIST: Yeah, like precious things and nurturing things, and beautiful things, and -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Do you want to talk about how often we should meet?

THERAPIST: Sure, yeah. That would probably be a good idea. (pause) Let's see, I guess my question (inaudible) are you clear about like costs and all that? Like, in other words, have I made clear ok. Do you have other questions for me about it?

CLIENT: I really I'm avoiding it, so -

THERAPIST: Ok.

CLIENT: For some reason it's difficult for me to to give any thought to because I think it's so overwhelming.

THERAPIST: Ok. I guess I would imagine you want to you know, one piece is that you want to come in a lot. And another piece is that you're worried about, I would guess a few things. One is money, another might be Jeremy's reaction.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: Another might be my reaction.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: Maybe also your time, but I don't know. You haven't really mentioned that.

CLIENT: No. I'm not worried about my time.

THERAPIST: Umm -

CLIENT: Yeah, that's pretty much it. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Ok. (laughs)

CLIENT: And the part about your reaction like I'm pretty clear about what the other two things mean, but some part of me thinks that I don't know. Your idea about kicking back $40 per session if I round with EPO -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: kind of made it seem like you were trying to incenticize (sic) coming in more.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And also I know that you're you value psychoanalysis and you might not value it for every patient, and clearly like it's not it's not something that I think that you have ever been anything but neutral about with me -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: but for some reason, that knowledge makes me think that you have a I don't know.

THERAPIST: Like some kind of agenda or interest in you doing that?

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: No, there's no evidence for that. Like I'd be making that up, but yeah, I think I make it up sometimes or -

THERAPIST: Um -

CLIENT: but then the other on the other hand, it's like why what do you like how do you manage a patient who wants to come in a lot?

THERAPIST: I don't know that I have to manage I mean like -

CLIENT: Well, it seems like frequency of sessions is kind of it's kind of a like a part of the treatment plan. It's like a -

THERAPIST: You mean, how do I plan it or how do I think about it?

CLIENT: Well -

THERAPIST: Because it -

CLIENT: do you do you think it's it I can't (laughs) see?

THERAPIST: I guess I had the impression the reason I reacted is when you said like, ‘How do I manage it?' I had the impression there was something like, ‘How do I keep it from getting out of control?' Or -

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: that's not how it came across to me when you said it, and I like as though that were a concern that I had, but -

CLIENT: No, it -

THERAPIST: but I may be just reading into what you're saying I'm clearly reading into what you're saying. (laughs) It may or may not be an accurate reading into what you're saying.

CLIENT: How do you balance like what you think is right and what the patient wants, and the fact that you have to make a living?

THERAPIST: Um (pause) well, to take the last one first, I wouldn't offer something that I didn't feel good about doing because that, sort of over time, can get in the way of the work, you know? So I guess I'm sort of I mean I'm I don't really think about I'm not really thinking about that. If (pause) I guess my thoughts about this would with you or for you I mean, I can give you a general answer, but it seems like a specific answer is more no. But I don't mind saying how I usually think about it, but you know my my concerns are like there are some people for whom coming in very intensively can be can stir things up or be more of a problem than a help. I don't think that's the case for you.

CLIENT: Yeah, that seems right.

THERAPIST: Um um, but that that's one thing I think about -

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: right now, but that's really (inaudible) for you. I know there are some people who like who sort of get deep enough with things that gets very disorganizing. I mean, not just like painful or confusing for a few days or whatever, but -

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: you know. It really matters in a different way. That's not an issue. And you know, the other thing is what do I think will help or how much do I think it will help if you come in more often? And in my mind. And you know, I have sort of strong advice about that or I think that my own impression of that might differ from, let's say yours, I would say so. Like but I think suspect we're probably not on like different pages really about that. In other words, if you said, ‘Geez, you know, I think once a week is absolutely enough to deal with this and I had (inaudible) feelings and I'm confused, duh, duh, duh, but I think I could probably work this out once a week, you know, in a few months.' I would say, ‘Hmm, yeah. I don't think so.' (laughs) You know, I -

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: but I suspect we're on the same page, that like you could get sort of (inaudible) to this and we would work on it how kind of well, the experience of it if you came in more often. But there are important concerns about like money and maybe other stuff between you and Jeremy that sort of factor importantly into that decision and so I guess like (pause) I think it could be helpful for you to come in more often, three or four times a week, but I I think you probably have a reasonable like a good sense of that, you know. And that you're trying to weigh that against other important considerations in your life. And I and and you know, that's where both with you in particular, and in general, you know I sort of stop in terms of my recommendations. You know, I don't that's a decision you're going to make better than me, and I you know, that you're going to know better than me about probably. So I I I wouldn't think so therefore what I think is you should do this or that. Am I being -

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: clear-ish?

CLIENT: It's really nice that we talk.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. How so?

CLIENT: I don't know, I just like it.

THERAPIST: Hmm, hmm.

CLIENT: So during that whole thing, I was listening, and I was like, ‘Ha, talking.'

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: ‘How long can I keep them talking?'

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: I think three times a week would be good.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: But my like I know a lot of stuff, but what I really feel is the more time between sessions, the more pain.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: So that's sort of what's strongest and what's driving me right now.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And if I could have all the people that I care about in my life like living on all the houses in my street and I could see all of them -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: like there was sort of a similar conversation with all of them, I it I would be considering the same thing.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Like -

THERAPIST: We're all we're all having dinner together every night?

CLIENT: Yeah (laughs). Or like I don't know. Some degree of emotional rationing. So like, I would give you a break on Tuesdays -

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: because I can see this other person on Tuesdays.

THERAPIST: Hmm. Do you really think about it that way, like you're giving people a break?

CLIENT: Uh, yeah, sometimes.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I my need for for sort of like connecting and communicating seems much stronger than the other person's.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And that I am not ignorant of that. That's been -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: that's been clear to me.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: At least at times, like with my mom, that's been clear. It's like she calls because she she needs to know that I'm doing ok.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But she really doesn't need to talk -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: too often.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. She sort of wants to check in?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And that's what you need?

CLIENT: And I -

THERAPIST: You want to talk?

CLIENT: I could just like talk for hours, but these days one of the shifts that I'm noticing in addition to reading and seeing more friends more intensely is I don't really want to talk to my parents -

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: that often any more.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: Which is nice.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. In the sense of being kind of freeing?

CLIENT: Yeah. And also it seems like there are stages in life like where you are you idealize your parents and you're a child and you're very, very attached to them. And then like -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: you sort of realize that they're human and you I don't know. I don't know how it is for other people. I don't think that happened to me at all. I don't think that I detached or like figured out stuff that I didn't like about them and therefore was able to like get some distance. I think I had like a brief one or two year period like that in high school, and then it's just like grown and grown and grown -

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: my attachment for them.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: So (pause) like -

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: they're just really cool. I don't I I'm not going to find anything about them that -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: forces me to like keep my distance.

THERAPIST: Yeah. My impression is that like as you've grown up and gotten more mature, there's, in some ways, more you've been able to appreciate about them.

CLIENT: Yeah, totally. But yeah, if I could have like a phone call with four or five people in my life every day, I would be so happy. And my mom's really the only person who will like who will do that.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And even then, it falls short.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. We should stop in a minute, but in terms of scheduling so I can make the Monday 8:30 time work.

CLIENT: Cool.

THERAPIST: And then I think we're good this time if that works for you?

CLIENT: Uh-huh. Um -

THERAPIST: And then yep?

CLIENT: The Thursday time can work tomorrow, but or on on all the weeks.

THERAPIST: Ok.

CLIENT: But I don't know if I don't know. Whatever you want.

THERAPIST: Ok. I mean, I can't do it tomorrow. Could you I have a couple of times on Friday.

CLIENT: Ok.

THERAPIST: I'm not sure if it would be good for you. I have 10:00, I know. And a 11:10. I don't think I have any time at the either end of the day, which I know is better.

CLIENT: Um, I'm giving a talk on Friday at noon.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I'm busy the rest of the day and the evening. I don't know if I want to come in before my talk.

THERAPIST: Sure. If I can arrange something else tomorrow or somehow it might work better on Friday I'll let you know.

CLIENT: Ok.

THERAPIST: Otherwise, I think the Thursday time generally works fine. It's just tomorrow -

CLIENT: Ok.

THERAPIST: that it doesn't. Are there times that are better than that?

CLIENT: I think early -

THERAPIST: Early is better?

CLIENT: is better.

THERAPIST: Ok.

CLIENT: I think I don't know that I want to stick with this time.

THERAPIST: The Wednesday time?

CLIENT: Yeah. Um do you have an 8:30 or earlier times, other times of the week?

THERAPIST: I will look. I don't think so, but I'll check.

CLIENT: Ok.

THERAPIST: Would 8:30 on Wednesday be better?

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: All right. Let me see what I can do. Ok. All right. I will I guess I will get back to you if something opens up or if I can work something on tomorrow or Friday. Otherwise, we're on for Monday. And I will see what I can do about something earlier instead of the Wednesday and Thursday times.

CLIENT: Ok. Thank you.

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