TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: So next week, then. There are some that you can get out ten, but I didn’t have that [big of a machine.] (ph?) Sorry. I’m not with it. (pause)

THERAPIST: How are you?

CLIENT: I guess this week some really good things happened and some not-so-great things happened, so I guess it was just a mix. (scoffs)

THERAPIST: Up and down?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Would it be helpful to talk about those things?

CLIENT: I guess I’m just not sure where to start. At the beginning of the week we celebrated Ivan’s birthday. I took him out to a place we’ve never been. [00:01:01] It was nice. We had a nice evening together. I think most of the week was pretty good together. (pause)

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:01:20)

CLIENT: I just don’t know where to . . . I have a lot on my mind and I’m not sure how to organize myself.

THERAPIST: It’s hard to talk about or it just feels like there is so much?

CLIENT: Probably both. No, some really good things. Ivan and I had some physical intimacy, not sex, but we had some physical intimacy; and that felt a little scary, but okay. [00:01:56] Ivan was really very clear that I shouldn’t feel pressured to do anything or feel obligated to do anything and that I should feel comfortable; so that was a good experience. So I think overall things went pretty well. Friday night, unfortunately, we had planned to have a certain dinner together and then watch a movie together and we ended up watching part of a TV show. It sounds dumb – and it is dumb to a large extent – but the content of the show is like a Lifetime show and it was a reference to some kind of sexual immorality. Ivan clearly felt uncomfortable and he said to me, “I feel bad. This must be hurtful to you” or “it must be bringing up thoughts or memories.” [00:02:59] It was just tough. We started talking about it and then we ended up arguing about it and it went from me saying how much I don’t understand the websites to me feeling like he hadn’t been held accountable growing up to a lot of frustration and anger and a lot of crying on my end and not really getting to resolved, but somewhat resolved maybe. And then the next morning Ivan was getting ready for work and we seemed okay. His parents sent him new khakis for his birthday as part of his gift. He has to wear black pants or khakis for work and I was like, “Why don’t you try on your new pants?” because his old pants are in really bad shape. It started off the morning really terribly. He was really upset and kind of aggressive and it was because they are a size that – it is his size, but they don’t fit because he’s gained a lot of weight. [00:04:08] He got angry and he apologized at some point. He was like, “I’m sorry that I’m taking it out on you.” But I felt so frustrated and I told him. I probably should not have, but I told him I felt so frustrated that I feel like out of everyone in his life, I’ve been the one who has mostly acknowledged that he struggles and sometimes he uses food to cope and that I want him to have healthy ways to cope and I’ve been supportive. There was a time when I would go to the gym with him at 10:00 at night because he doesn’t want to be around other people and he’s self-conscious; he doesn’t want to go alone. We have given up eating certain foods. We don’t buy certain foods. I feel like I’ve tried to be supportive and whenever he goes to the gym I’m always like, “Oh, that’s wonderful. You can feel so proud of that. That’s great.” (sighs) [00:05:00] I guess I just feel so angry because his parents, when he goes home, are like, “Have a whole pizza.” They just . . . He’s not angry at them. And I get it. I’m the one that’s there. But that’s just so . . .

THERAPIST: So he’s getting angry at you?

CLIENT: He’s angry about it and then he’s taking it out on me. It would be like if he had a bad day and came home and was taking it out on me, but knowing it had nothing to do with me. I get that and I get that we all do that sometimes and it’s not okay, but it just felt really frustrating and I guess leveled on top of our discussion from the previous evening, I just feel so angry with his parents and I feel like I’m not supposed to feel that, like it’s not helpful or productive or even appropriate necessarily. But I feel so angry with them and I guess I feel frustrated because sometimes I take the brunt. [00:06:02] Maybe he is deep down really angry that they taught him to cope this way and that it’s been unhealthy and they didn’t get him help, but it only comes out at me and I’m so angry about that. I know it’s not helpful, but part of me sometimes wants him to get angry at them about it – not inappropriately, but to just be able to say, “I’m really angry that this is neglected and I really wish I had gotten help when I was young.” This goes back to childhood that it started and sometimes I really want that and I feel like I want that for him; but selfishly I also kind of want it for me because I guess I resent, to a certain extent, helping him with some of these things because I don’t want to have that responsibility. It’s not that I don’t care. I obviously do. [00:07:01] I guess I feel like that’s more of a parent’s role if your child has that problem from a very, very young age. Why am I dealing with that? It went downhill from there.

THERAPIST: It isn’t fair for both of you, for people, that the stuff their parents didn’t do for them ends up being a legacy they have to deal with as adults; and then not only does Ivan have to deal with it, but it affects you, too, his significant other person. I wonder: why do you keep saying, “I know this isn’t helpful, but I wish he would get angry at them?” Why do you think that isn’t helpful?

CLIENT: Because if I ever told my sister or my mom, “Oh, my gosh. I’m just so angry with his parents right now. I’m so angry that they’re avoiding this; they never helped him with this.” [00:08:03] On top of it, they have called me judgmental or really critical for saying “Ivan really does have an attention deficit disorder” or “Ivan really does need help with his depression,” instead of ever saying, “We really wish we had done something about this. That wasn’t right and we’re so grateful that you love him and take care of him.” Something like that. I guess I feel super angry that I have never heard anything like that and I maybe never will.

THERAPIST: You won’t, unless they go into intensive therapy.

CLIENT: But every time I tell that to my mom or my sister they get kind of sharp with me and it’s not going to do anything.

THERAPIST: Will your parents? I wonder if your mom is getting kind of unconsciously defensive of her. If you can say that about Ivan’s parents, then what can be said about yours? [00:08:58]

CLIENT: I think that’s very possible, but then Emma then always says, “Sometimes I think you hold his parents responsible; but he’s now 27. He can make the choices. I think you’re more angry at him and you’re redirecting it at them.” I’m sure that’s true to a certain extent. I can imagine with couples in general, if you’re upset with your spouse, you might not (chuckles) be inviting the in-laws over. I guess I could understand that, but it really feels like . . . It’s just tough because I’m so angry about it and I guess I just wish they would say something like that to me.

THERAPIST: It’s such an understandable wish.

CLIENT: I’m not asking for that, like I don’t think I have this idea like I want them to say, “We were terrible parents and we just can’t live with ourselves.” I’m not looking for that. I know that they love Ivan; I just think that it’s really sad that they neglected some really serious things and I am honestly very angry because it negatively impacts him. [00:10:08] But it also has had a really negative impact on my life and that may be selfish but . . .

THERAPIST: Of course you would have feelings about them, Ramona. It isn’t fair. It’s affecting both of you that he was neglected in so many different ways as a child.

CLIENT: I don’t know. It’s difficult. And I even said to him the one time, because he gets defensive and he gets protective when I say that I’m so angry and “I’m so sad that this wasn’t done for you and I really wish this had been different. There is no reason why you’ve had to go through years and years of certain struggles and everything that went with it.” [00:10:59] He is very defensive and protective and I said, “You know, Ivan . . .”

THERAPIST: Protective of his parents?

CLIENT: Yeah. And very defensive, very defensive.

THERAPIST: I think that’s probably what’s happening more than anything else when you get into places feeling so angry at his parents. Angry feelings towards them make a lot of sense, actually. It seems totally reasonable for you to be feeling that, but you can get into places where it’s so strong and it’s as though if they would do something differently or could say the right thing right now, it could make some of these situations feel better. I wonder if, at those moments, what you are actually feeling in a way is the anger for both you and Ivan because Ivan isn’t feeling it. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Definitely. Definitely.

THERAPIST: It’s sort of your way of the urgency about saying, “I want to get through to you, Ivan.” [00:12:01] If he were able to go around and say, “I’m so furious at my parents. I’m getting it, how much they didn’t do for me, did to me, and what they missed and what they could have done.” I think your anger at them would subside some. Not go away, but it would feel like a relief that finally Ivan gets it. He’s getting it. It’s starting to channel in the right places. But when he isn’t, I think you’re the one left holding all the anger at his parents. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: I do. I definitely do because sometimes I get angry at myself and I think, “Why can’t I let this go?” I can definitely look at it and say, “This is so sad. I wish they had gotten help for themselves.” I mean, they struggle with a lot of the same things for themselves and Ivan – or even just to let him know that they were struggling with it, but that they wanted him to . . . I really wish that would have happened and sometimes I wonder why, if I am an independent person, why can’t I look at it and when we visit them just say, “That’s their issue and we can’t turn back the clock.” [00:13:12] Like that’s their problem and I’m not going to feel bad about it and if they think I’m judgmental for having said that he’s depressed and that he sees someone, then that’s their issue and it’s sad that they didn’t speak out for Ivan. I’m not able to do that and I wish I could just say that it doesn’t bother me. I wonder if I could feel more like that if Ivan said to me, “I know this is how they act. I know it’s not healthy. We’re going to visit, but I completely understand.”

THERAPIST: I think so. In other words, if you knew that you and Ivan were visiting his parents on the same page, where he got it, you got it, he’s sad and angry, you’re sad and angry for him about his family, and you’re a team where he’s not defending them, then I think it would feel different. [00:14:14] You would still have all these feelings inside, but it would feel a little bit more like, “Okay, I will contain these feelings and keep my mouth shut, visit the in-laws, get it over and done with, because he and I are together. I know that he gets it.” I don’t know how often it has felt like Ivan actually does get it. He’s going back and forth right now, but I think a lot of the time it feels like he ends up protecting them in his mind because he’s scared to [get in the way of that] (ph?).

CLIENT: And that’s frustrating for me. Something else that comes to mind that probably isn’t fair, is this absolute, positive fear like, “My gosh. I never would want to have children with someone who would rather watch their child struggle and suffer than say to them and the rest of the family ‘they have a problem and we’re getting them help and there is nothing wrong with that.’” [00:15:12]

THERAPIST: That they were that avoidant themselves with their heads stuck in the sand that they would sort of turn away from Ivan’s suffering. It’s horrible.

CLIENT: I think I really magnify it, though, and then I’m like, “What if Ivan was like that? What if we ever had children and he was like that?” (sighs) I know I do that to myself.

THERAPIST: Ramona, I don’t think that’s just doing something irrational to yourself. That’s something that makes sense that you would be cautious about that. That is Ivan’s tendency. If he didn’t have you right now helping him with this part, he might be still avoidant. I think he’s gotten better at it so I think the likelihood that he would do that with kids now is so much less than two years ago. [00:16:00]

CLIENT: It’s still really scary.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah. So maybe also when you’re mad at his parents, you are actually, in addition, mad at him, too, that he might keep avoiding.

CLIENT: No. It’s like the one night, I guess it was Tuesday night, it was a recent thing. I got a text from his dad out of the blue. His dad, no one in his family will contact me. They will not. It’s back to that. Actually the whole thing at Christmas of “we just didn’t know what to say” and I said that I didn’t think that was fair and his dad was like, “I convinced myself that it wouldn’t go well or that you would project it. Ivan gets his avoidance from me.” And I thought that was probably insanely huge.

THERAPIST: He said that? Wow.

CLIENT: That was probably really huge for him to say. And then the assault happened again in January and it was the same process, like they don’t say “we just want to let you know that we’re here.” “Are you okay?” [00:17:09] Not to get in the middle, but just to acknowledge that I exist and that something bad happened to me. (sighs) And that’s really, really difficult on top of that. There is just no contact. So out of the blue I get a text that is like, “Ivan hopes to visit at the end of April. We really hope that you’ll join.” It was something along those lines. I was like, “Ivan, (scoffs) I didn’t know anything about this.” He was like, “I talked with him this morning and that’s not what happened. He said he wants us to visit and he found out that Subway is closing at the end of April for a while and decided that would be a good time to visit.” I told him, “I wish you and I were more of a team, where you and I said ‘we know your dad wants us to visit; let’s figure out a time that works for us or a plan that works for us and go to him,’ instead of you and your dad being the couple that decides.” (scoffs) [00:18:09]

THERAPIST: It could have been that they had just spoken that morning and you hadn’t even seen Ivan. Seeing Ivan, you think he wouldn’t have, in other words, brought it up with you?

CLIENT: I think he was avoiding it. He was like “I was going to bring it up” but I know . . .

THERAPIST: You think he knew before that morning?

CLIENT: No. I think that he knows that his dad is always saying he wants us to visit and we don’t visit enough, but I think there was plenty of time for him to tell me about it in between and he is nervous about it. It just felt like . . . I don’t know. For his dad to text me and tell me what my husband is thinking, it’s like “hmm.” It doesn’t feel good and it’s hard because Ivan was going to get eleven days off. They’re redoing the store and originally he was like, “You and I should go away.” And I said, “Let’s modify that. [00:19:03] What if you do spend some time looking for jobs and then what if we take a day over the weekend and we go somewhere local and do something fun? We can plan on that as a reward.” From that we’ve gone to now it’s going to be five days and his dad is banking on two to three of them. I’m like, “How are we going to get obligations done and what happened to our plans?” It just always feels like his dad becomes the priority. They become the couple and I’m the third wheel.

THERAPIST: Because it’s also odd of his dad, I guess, on the heels of that conversation to text you and say that.

CLIENT: Ivan made him.

THERAPIST: He made him?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Ivan was scared to tell you?

CLIENT: No. He’s like, “I know exactly what Ramona is going to say. She’s going to say that you guys never talk to her and that it doesn’t feel good that when it’s around a holiday or when you want to see him to be like ‘you’re so welcome to come.’” [00:20:05] It doesn’t feel so great, especially because it always just feels like they’re awkward and uncomfortable around me like I did what Ivan did. There is an awkward pause as I walk into the room, as if I did that, as if I’ve been betraying their son and lying to him. It’s just not okay. Ivan made him text me.

THERAPIST: He’s trying to help out Ivan, then. He’s trying to encourage his dad to do what you were hoping his dad would do more of?

CLIENT: Yeah. I think Ivan is really caught between a rock and a hard place because he knows it’s not right that they are reacting this way, but he also can’t make them. And then when he does, essentially it’s obvious that they do it because of that. [00:20:59]

THERAPIST: In other words, you can’t change his parents. They’re going to be his parents, right? They’re not in therapy. They’re not going through this process. They’re not working on themselves, but you and Ivan can work together on each other. So Ivan tried to say, “Dad, can you please reach out to Ramona?” But in this circumstance, when he did, you also got upset with the way he did and ended up feeling like you and Ivan, then, weren’t in the conversation together. Do you see what I mean? In other words, Ivan could say “I was trying to do a good thing.”

CLIENT: No, he did. He did. It’s just like I feel like it’s not good, what his dad does.

THERAPIST: Like putting the pressure on?

CLIENT: Yeah. And kind of guilt-tripping and it’s just really bizarre to me to not talk to someone for months and months and then, when they really want to see their son and they feel like they can’t just invite him, then it’s like because he forced him to text me, then I’m good enough to talk to and I guess I’m angry about that. [00:22:01] On top of which, his parents can’t say what Ivan did was wrong – not to be like, “We’re so ashamed of our son. He’s a horrible person.” No. I don’t want that. I would just like them to say some kind of acknowledgement that it’s really tough to go through or give me credit for sticking with Ivan when I could have just left; or even just to say we love our son, but we don’t support what he did. I guess maybe looking for that is the wrong thing.

THERAPIST: Again, it’s so understandable, but I don’t think you’ll get it. So it’s sort of like what do you do with that, then, that you won’t? What do you do with those feelings, because they would be being different people if they could do that? They would all of a sudden be someone else and not themselves. That means actually holding their son accountable for something, which they’ve never done. [00:22:58]

CLIENT: Now I think it’s my fault, but I can’t let it go when at Christmas he’s like, “I understand that Ivan crossed a boundary that you guys agreed on as a couple,” and I just wanted to go through the roof because (sniggers) that’s a distortion of what happened; and that’s not even all that happened, even if it was the truth. It’s such a slap in the face after never asking if I’m okay. It’s like diminishing, normalizing, minimizing.

THERAPIST: He’s doing exactly what they’ve always done with Ivan, glorifying, minimizing the problems; pretend that what really happened didn’t happen, which is really not doing him any service. It didn’t as a kid and it’s not now. It’s horrifying, Ramona. What do you do with those feelings, that this is what they’re going to keep doing this with him? They’re going to keep being themselves.

CLIENT: He says that he, at some point, has said to them, has said to his dad that he was upset that they didn’t get him help before, I think, for at least the depression; and I don’t know if that’s true. [00:24:07] He brought up that sometimes when Ivan would try to talk to his dad, his dad would just tell him that he was moody, that that happened a lot. He said he brought that up, that that didn’t feel very good when he did try to confront and it was put back on him and avoided.

THERAPIST: I think what’s going to be ultimately important for you and your feeling this so much is Ivan‘s knowing, coming into your realm himself. People can confront parents about things and sometimes it goes nowhere. It does nothing good, but it’s very different if Ivan knows it. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Yeah. I think it would feel different if we went to visit and his dad said something like that and he said to me, “That’s not what happened and that’s not okay. I can’t change them, but you and I are in a completely different place.” [00:25:06]

THERAPIST: Right. In so many ways, that’s often the best that married couples hope for with each other. Parents have their difficulties. There are issues. There are things that the parents will never understand, but if you both get it together – him about your parents, too.

CLIENT: That’s what I said. I said, “Ivan, I could completely understand if, at some point, you said to me that you’re so angry that your parents didn’t do this or that.” I would think that was normal.

THERAPIST: And supportive, even.

CLIENT: Right. I think it’s hard. I guess, in some ways, I feel like if you have something not positive to say about your parents, it’s one thing for you to say it. It’s another for someone else to say it because they’re still your parents, so I guess I feel like that’s where he comes from a lot. [00:25:59]

THERAPIST: So you can have compassion for that?

CLIENT: Yeah. It’s hard, I think.

THERAPIST: I wonder if you might try saying to him, instead of saying when you get into this place, “I’m so angry at them I can hardly take it” or whatever expression is that “Ivan, I just need you to know how angry at them I am.” If you were to say instead what I just said to you a few minutes ago about what I think is actually happening – and this happens with you and Ivan a lot, where the anger that is to be had gets placed in one of you or the other. And the other one gets to get evacuated from anger. So this happens and what has historically happened is that you would be having all the anger at his parents. I think in part, you’re trying to get through to him. You’re trying to be like, “Ivan, don’t you understand what they did to you?” because he’s not in it and he has none of it, which is even more infuriating. You want to get through to him even more. [00:26:59] I wonder if instead you were to say, “Ivan, I feel sometimes like I’m in this place right now where I feel like I’m left holding all the anger for them at them.” Could he then think wait, maybe there is some he has that is hard for him to own or hard for him to bear or hard for him to sit with? Because I think that can happen a lot, that your defenses have an easier time holding anger. His don’t, right? We know that. He has a really, really, really hard time expressing anger about anything to anyone. So starting to articulate that he does have anger. Believe it or not, he does. It’s just coming out in subtler and in more unconscious ways. If you’re saying “I feel like I have all the anger for him right now; I wonder where yours has gone?” That may help him, rather than you just being like “I’m so angry” that he gets even more defensive and backed away. [00:28:01] It’s trying to sort of say “I think some of this actually is yours and it would help us both if it were more yours.” (pause)

CLIENT: I think it brings a lot of mutual stress, at least, so I don’t know how to say it. I wouldn’t text his dad back and say, “Oh, Ivan and I had plans. I don’t know about that.” And Ivan was like, “I know what he’s texting you, but that’ snot what happened. That’s not what I said. He brought it up and he pinpointed this weekend, but that wasn’t my idea.” It’s really hard and I’m like, “Can we wait a while?”

THERAPIST: That’s what also sort of gets a little lost in this – what does Ivan want?

CLIENT: That’s the really impossible thing because this has happened before, where Ivan’s dad will tell him what he wants and Ivan will not disagree with his dad. He will not say no to his dad. [00:29:05] He kind of worships his dad and he’s been like his best friend more than his dad. So if his dad says “we really want to see you and we want this weekend,” if I said “sure, let’s do it,” he would do it immediately. He gets off the phone and he talks with me and he’s like, “We were going to do that and it’s not a lot of time and I didn’t necessarily agree to that weekend.” It’s like when he talks with me we’re on the same page. And then he could get back on the phone with is dad and in two seconds he would do whatever his dad wants and that’s all he ever wanted. I have told him before, “I just want to know what you want, even if it’s not what I want. I just want you to have a presence and an independence.”

THERAPIST: Because that also would feel differently if Ivan decided he wants to go home to visit his family and approached you and said, “Ramona, I know we had these plans, but I’m kind of thinking I would like to see my family at some point in the next few months. I wonder if that would be a convenient time.? [00:30:01] You might disagree. You might be annoyed, but then it’s Ivan; you are having a conversation with Ivan’s voice – your voice and Ivan’s voice – instead of feeling like you’re getting either Ivan complying with you or complying with his father and having no idea where he actually is in the middle of all of that. It wouldn’t be unreasonable, in other words, if he said at some point, “I’m going to visit my family.” That’s within reason. That’s a reasonable thing to want. It wouldn’t be unreasonable for you to say, “It’s uncomfortable for me. I don’t want to go.” And you could then negotiate and talk about it and try to work it out because you’re disagreeing then; but it’s yours then, instead of feeling like it’s Ivan’s dad’s voice.

CLIENT: I really wish that that could happen. It’s also kind of tough because I feel like we’ve spent more time with his family because when we were dating, they were closer. They were a lot closer. His dad very much guilt-trips and it’s not okay. [00:31:00] So every other year there is a week-long family vacation in Michigan with extended relatives that they see every two years and pretty much don’t talk to the rest of the time, which is fine. It’s fine to have extended family that you’re not close with. When you have a big family, you can’t be best friends with every single person and there is nothing wrong with that, I think, but they just go every other year and they’re really angry because I said, “Ivan, I don’t think that’s reasonable. And by the way, you and I have never gone anywhere together other than our honeymoon.” (scoffs) It’s 12 hours to get to Pittsburgh minimum and then another 12 hours in the car with his whole family to Michigan. I’m like, “You don’t even know or like those relatives very much. I know it’s a family thing, but if we’re going to go visit family why don’t we go and see your grandparents?” It’s just difficult. And then his dad gets very it’s my fault and he thinks that I don’t want to be close to him.

THERAPIST: You get pitted against his family, then. [00:32:02] It’s like Ivan doesn’t have enough of a sense of self yet to be able to say, “Wait, do I want to go to Michigan? What do I even feel about going to Michigan?” He is either left with appeasing you or appeasing his family, but there is no center yet to figure out what would actually be Ivan’s desires. I get how when anything like this comes up it’s going to be a struggle right now to actually try to say – maybe the more you say, “Ivan, shut me up for a second. Shut your dad up. What do you want to do with this eleven days or five days?” Whatever – it’s turned into five days.

CLIENT: That’s the really hard thing because before I really even knew, he just told me about it and he was like, “Why don’t we go away?” and that came from him. I didn’t even know he was going to have days off and he and I negotiated.

THERAPIST: (crosstalk at 00:32:53) You know how, let’s say, you make a plan and then something else comes up and you actually realize “Oh, no. That’s important to me. I want to do this?” [00:33:03] We don’t know if seeing his family is important to him right now or if he feels like he’s only doing that to comply with is dad. Was he offering to do something only because he felt like that’s what you want or did he really want to do that? All of this is what you’re trying to get at: “What do you want to do, Ivan? Your dad is offering for us to come home. Do you want to do that? I want to talk with Ivan. I don’t want to talk to your dad. I want you and I to have a conversation together about my wants and needs and your wants and needs and how we figure out how to navigate this together.” He is so used to just sort of putting out the fire by appeasing the person in front of him.

CLIENT: It’s hard because when he did go visit alone he talked to me on the phone. It was getting close to dinnertime and they sat down and started to eat without him. We were on the phone for too long; it was maybe an hour and they had finished dinner. So he missed an hour of family time, but he was there for four or five days. [00:34:04] It was so intense. His mother swore at him. She said that he sees me every day and he shut off his phone that night. Two days later he flew home because they were so angry that he missed some family time. I’m like, “You were with them all weekend. Maybe you shouldn’t have missed dinner.”

THERAPIST: Right. That’s one of the other things: why is he not saying, “Ramona, we’re about to sit down for dinner. It’s not the most opportune hour, but I will call you right after dinner and we’ll have time to talk then.”

CLIENT: Then he would also been in all afternoon and not spending time with his family as a result, so I guess I feel like . . . I don’t know. I think that’s a lot. I don’t feel like his mom should be swearing intensely.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:34:56)

CLIENT: Yeah. And none of them were home. It’s not like in the whole weekend this was the only hour they were going to have together. It’s nothing like that. [00:35:06]

THERAPIST: Don’t get me wrong – her reaction is not appropriate no matter what, but he also could not sleep all afternoon, for example, if you’re there for a short time. Take an hour nap, set your alarm, wake up. Or if you do, then spend dinner and say to you “I’ll call you right after dinner.” Something is getting in the way of doing that, but still the reaction is so scathing, so guilt-tripping.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don’t think they like me at all. (scoffs) That’s okay. (pause)

THERAPIST: It’s hard.

CLIENT: I feel like my parents have been pretty . . . I mean, Ivan has been there for holidays since what happened. My parents sent him a big package for his birthday. They are able to be nice towards him after feeling really hurt about what he did to me and his parents are, I feel, acting just the opposite. [00:36:04] It’s like I did all those things to Ivan so they don’t even want him on the phone with me.

THERAPIST: It’s almost like they’re shooting the messenger. You’re the bearer of that news. Your presence indicates what Ivan did wrong, so they can’t take it. That’s really hard for you, Ramona. It’s really cruel to him, too, what they’re doing. It’s sort of sabotaging what you and he really want.

CLIENT: But I think they view their core family as more important, far more important.

THERAPIST: It’s really sabotaging their son’s development, once again. It’s actually good for Ivan that he’s built this relationship and wants to work on the relationship. They should be fighting to keep you around him. Do you know what I mean? [00:36:59] But instead, it feels like they’re sort of acting like maybe this is a way to get him back in the fold, alienate you or ostracize you, which is not good for him. It’s moving away from his independent development.

CLIENT: I think his dad would be very happy if he moved home. I think it would be horrible for Ivan.

THERAPIST: And do you hear what they’re doing, then? This thing that would be horrible for their son, they’re hoping would happen. Selfish needs.

CLIENT: It’s like keeping an animal in a cage. It’s so selfish. It’s hard because I don’t want to come between him and his family. His family loves him and he loves his family, but it’s hard not to have feelings when his mom says that she doesn’t think she knows me. I spent so much time learning all about their family and their extended families and their jobs. [00:38:08] I’ve spent so much time doing that and to hear her say that she doesn’t think she knows me . . . When they had an exchange student from another country, just a teenager living with them, and he’s their exchange son; not the exchange student that lives with them, he’s there son and I’m like . . . (pause)

THERAPIST: Ouch. (pause) [What are you feeling?] (ph?)

CLIENT: There was something else that I wanted to talk about, but I think I’m avoiding it because it’s uncomfortable. When we watched the TV episode and that thing came up, it wasn’t like what Ivan did, but it triggered. [00:39:02] Anyway, when I find us talking about the websites and the list and the folder, I feel so stuck. I feel so like I don’t know what to do here because Ivan just keeps telling me that he loves me and it’s not what it looks like and he never wanted to have an affair or he couldn’t think about having one. He describes the websites as like the white noise you put on in the background. He just wanted to fantasize about that. It’s so hard to take in. The list – he describes it as things that he was angry about, things that he wanted to remind himself that he should be really grateful for. He’s like, “I wanted to show myself that I was being so stupid,” and it’s so hard to take that in. It’s impossible. How do I let it go and move on? I don’t want to punish him, but I also don’t want to act like that’s not super hurtful. [00:40:05] But I don’t want to hang onto that either forever and just be like “well, you hurt me” and that be the end of our relationship. It’s just really so painful to think about them, I find myself feeling really bad about myself. I find myself struggling with thoughts about, not actually hurting myself, but – I don’t know if mantra is the right word the types of thoughts that I was having before, which is frustrating because you helped me work so hard to get out of that pattern of thinking. Sometimes I just feel so hopeless when I think about it or I feel it, like I just can’t; I can’t bear it.

THERAPIST: You know when you said this is something you’re avoiding talking about because it’s hard to talk about, what part were you thinking? What’s hard right now, bringing it up?

CLIENT: It’s embarrassing, but I also think of my mom who has barely talked about it with me because she’s like, “You’ve got to let it go. [00:41:07] You can’t keep bringing it up. You can’t keep talking about it over and over and over,” which I definitely have not done with her. It’s like somehow, six years after my dad’s affair, she’s still making a comment on Christmas Day related to that, insinuating that type of thing is happening again. I feel like sometimes, when I bring it up, I’m there. I’m not there. I can rationalize that I’m not there.

THERAPIST: You have a history with her and them never having processed it, so that she would hang onto it.

CLIENT: And I don’t want to do that. I really don’t. I’m already sick of talking about it. The other day I just thought, “What if Ivan and I stopped having these three-times-a-week conversations? They are so exhausting.”

THERAPIST: That’s a lot.

CLIENT: Plus couple’s counselling. Plus individual. [00:42:00] It’s exhausting to keep talking about these websites, especially when I just crumble inside every time I think about them. There is nothing . . . It’s so hard. The worst part is, I think, is it’s probably very true. It’s probably a very complicated answer that probably was not related to wanting to have an affair. It probably was something really complicated like a fantasy or like a detachment from reality, but that’s really hard to process and really hard to bear. I wouldn’t go tell my friends, “Ivan and I had this rough patch, but it’s not what it looks like. It’s totally fine.” Or to think of us in like five or ten years and looking back and feeling okay about staying with someone like that.

THERAPIST: I actually don’t even think it’s atypical when this kind of thing happens. It’s not usually that the person has actually wanted to have an affair. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: No? (chuckles) [00:43:03]

CLIENT: I mean, I believe that about Ivan. I believe that that is not what he was doing, but that doesn’t mean that it doesn’t feel really rejecting and really betraying.

THERAPIST: I think that’s more of what maybe you and I want to get into more is what nerve this hits inside of you that pulls you back into such a place of self-loathing. Do you know what I mean? I think even if Ivan is doing all his own independent processing of what it meant and why he did it and how it was not an affair and it was his own revenge fantasies and his own insecurities, right? He’s doing all that; you’re still left with the punch of that list in your own gut that hits your nerve and self-esteem. [00:44:00] It may be up to us to start to kind of get into the list more. You’ve done a lot of processing it with Ivan, but maybe here, bringing up what’s on it, bringing up what hit what nerve, what it feels like, why you go, what’s happening when you go into a state of self-loathing right now?

CLIENT: Would it be okay to bring it in?

THERAPIST: Absolutely. I think it would be really helpful.

CLIENT: I really want to get to the point, if Ivan and I are going to keep moving forward, I really want to get to the point where I can have something that reminds me of its existence without feeling like that inside.

THERAPIST: Yes. I think that would be so useful.

CLIENT: And Dr. Farrow said, “I’m not recommending it, but I’m saying that sometimes I say to my individual patients that when they’re working on something and it’s hard to explain, that they bring in the spouse.” She asked Ivan how he would feel about doing that with Dr. Bourd and, obviously, I’m all for whatever helps to explain it because that’s really important to me. [00:45:03] I guess that’s something he’s going to raise.

THERAPIST: I was having the fantasy, at least, of would it be helpful for me to talk to Dr. Bourd so I can kind of tell you what he says. I think any of the above options – even having you there – because then you get to hear his own therapist’s words, his sense, not even filtered through me; but I am happy to do that, also. You and Ivan talk about what feels comfortable to the two of you. I think that makes a lot of sense to not just hear from Ivan, but to keep hearing from the expert in the room that this is actually what it seems like it is about, to hear that confirmation from Dr. Bourd.

CLIENT: It makes it more credible.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: It makes it like someone who gets caught red-handed; it’s more credible if someone objective was not personal . . .

THERAPIST: “No, it wasn’t about that.” Yeah. I think that’s a great idea. [All right, so we’ll start there next week. I know it’s hard.] (ph?)

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