TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: You (ph) changed (inaudible) with.

CLIENT: (clears throat)

THERAPIST: Have the list. (chuckles)

CLIENT: Oh! OK! I think—you didn’t have to print it. I just thought—

THERAPIST: I went not to do it, but then I thought, “It’s so—there’s so much on here. It’d be helpful to—”

CLIENT: There is a lot. I actually—

THERAPIST: “[Reference it.] (ph)”

CLIENT: My thought was—I thought I was going to print it. And then I actually opened it yesterday, and I was just like, “So like I have to close this immediately.” (chuckles) So I made an excuse, and I didn’t.

THERAPIST: It’s an overwhelming list.

CLIENT: It is.

THERAPIST: It’s extremely long. I don’t think I’d realized he’d written it also about himself. So what’s it like even having sent it to me, and reading it or opening it?

CLIENT: (sighs) I mean, I felt bad sending it to you, because I didn’t expect you to like look it over before our session, but I also didn’t want you to feel— (sighs) But then I thought, “At least, you know, if I’m not going to open it and look at it, or I’m not going to print it, I should at least (chuckles?) get it to you somehow. But I—yeah, it just brought up a ton of anxiety, like even just seeing the topic, like glimpsing the topic. I just closed it immediately. (chuckles) I just like couldn’t—(sigh)—but I— [00:01:14]

THERAPIST: So that—even that reaction is really important. There’s a way it kind of shows what you were talking about last time we were here, how much is still frightening about all this. Like it’s a kind of phobic PTSD kind of reaction. That means it’s not been processed yet enough to—

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: To move past it. So what have you and Ivan talked about with the list lately? I wonder what. You’ve had a lot of discussions on your own and also on couples therapy. I just wonder.

CLIENT: So last night, like we had our money meeting. And right after it, that’s when I sent it. And Ivan is like, “What are you doing?” And I’m like, “I’m getting (ph) this list. [Me and] (ph) Dr. Rosa are actually going to start talking about it.” It’s been hard to. Like I’ve been avoiding talking it. And actually we had a scheduled conversation last night, and we didn’t talk about it. And I think I purposefully—now (ph) it isn’t, you know, intentionally or consciously, but derailed, you know, away from talking about the list. Because we have talked about it somewhat, but every time we do, I get stuck. And I get furious. And I get frustrated. And I get confused. And I feel like we’re going down a rabbit hole. Like it’s not— (sighs?) [00:02:36] (pause)

THERAPIST: Going down a rabbit hole. Meaning that’s—the conversation kind of evolves in that kind of feeling?

CLIENT: Yeah. It just doesn’t feel helpful. And it almost feels—and I don’t mean it to sound as accusing as it is—it almost feels like he’s making up answers. Because I’ll ask him about specific things on the list, because some of it is so bizarre kind of. And I’ll ask him about specific things, and he’ll give me an answer. And like the next time we talk about it, it’ll be a different answer. And I’m like, “Oh, so which is it?” “It’s both,” or like— And I feel like I’m trying to test or trying to get some— Making sure that he’s not just wiping it away. “Oh, it wasn’t about anyone else,” when in reality it was a fantasy or it was a something. And he told Dr. Farrow how its, the file’s name is SI for Self Introspection. But and like what the heck is that? (chuckles) (sighs) (pause) And then—sorry.

THERAPIST: Oh. Go ahead.

CLIENT: He—it’s—so it was in a folder called LAR. And I—

THERAPIST: LIR?

CLIENT: AR.

THERAPIST: AR.

CLIENT: And when—

THERAPIST: [Life After Ramona] (ph), right?

CLIENT: I found it, that’s what I finally came up with. I’m like, “Oh, my gosh! That’s what that is.” And there was dead silence. And then it wasn’t until last week, when he’s like, “Actually it was Life Amongst Regrets.” And I was like, “Wait a minute, wouldn’t you have corrected me way back when? Or said like, ‘Oh my gosh! That’s such a horrible—’ like, it wasn’t that?” And that (ph) just seems very, some of it just seems very suspicious to me. And I’m already very suspicious, because I found my husband hiding things.

THERAPIST: You’d said to him, “Does that mean Life After Ramona?” Originally? [00:04:18]

CLIENT: I didn’t ask him. I just said, “Oh my gosh!” And then, like I said what I thought it was. And there was just silence. And he didn’t—

THERAPIST: [And he’s] (ph) in the room, in other words? You said that to him?

CLIENT: I think we were on the phone. Because I think it was when he lived down the street, down the road. (pause) And there was silence. So, yes (ph), technically he didn’t, you know, agree with it or refute it but—

THERAPIST: Yeah, but that’s—he’s agreeing. That’s what it means. He doesn’t refute it.

CLIENT: It was just—it’s very bizarre. And like until last week, I never heard this other one. But he came up with it immediately. So it wasn’t like in the couple session he thought about it for a while and like came up with a weird excuse. So it was just like very bizarre.

THERAPIST: He’s had time in between to think about what else to say it stands for.

CLIENT: He could. Yeah, that’s very possible. And I don’t know. I’m very—I guess I’m scared to know. And I’m scared not to know. [00:05:14]

THERAPIST: This story sounds like it does mean Life After Ramona. It doesn’t sound very like—

CLIENT: Right!

THERAPIST: [I need] (ph) the rest of the story.

CLIENT: There’s a whole file describing how he was going to move to New Orleans, and have a house, and get two dogs. And he like, “That was just, you know, that was a self-punishing type of thing. I was so sad that I was going to be alone, and that I wasn’t going to have anything.” And I said, “It doesn’t sounds as destitute as that if you’re going to get a new job and get a house. And it doesn’t actually sound like ‘I’m going to go live like in a small apartment and continue to work at Subway forever.’ It doesn’t sound like a depressive—” (clears throat) (sighs) I think part of the reason why I’m so anxious about talking about it with Ivan, especially alone, is because I don’t want to be led down—

THERAPIST: Lies. [00:06:01]

CLIENT: Yes! And I don’t want to spend time buying into it, and trying to understand, and engaging in potentially just fantasy, and reinforcing it.

THERAPIST: It almost sounds like he’s really not in a place where he’s ready to talk about it in an honest way. The way you’re—I mean, so do you hear that to me it sounds absolutely unambiguous that it means Life After Ramona? Like it doesn’t—I don’t think it meant what he said later.

CLIENT: It sounds bizarre.

THERAPIST: Is that hard to hear? You almost want that not to be true or?

CLIENT: Well, of course. If I heard an alternate, of course I’d rather hear that.

THERAPIST: Yeah. It just doesn’t—it fits so well. And the fact that he didn’t deny it, you know? Any person at that moment would say, “Oh, no. It didn’t mean that. That’s not what it meant.”

CLIENT: That’s—I sometimes find myself almost—it’s wrong, but I sometimes almost find myself testing him. Like saying, “Are you sure you weren’t looking for someone else?” And then I kind of gauge like his amount of indignation or amount of like being upset about it as whether or not it’s genuine. Sometimes I get worried, because it doesn’t seem like he’s as upset about it. (pause) But we’ve also talked about it a few times. It’s not like—I don’t know. That’s not really fair, but I’m that I guess desperate to figure out exactly what was going on. [00:07:26]

THERAPIST: I mean, even if we assume it did stand for Life After Ramona —and it’s incredibly hurtful—I mean, I just think it’s helpful to begin to sort of, for you to even sort of say to yourself what it is. You know what I mean? And just be in that. And be in that he is probably, it seems, lying to you about some of these things. That doesn’t have to mean the end of your marriage. Right? I mean, it— Ivan is incredibly shame-prone. And he is incredibly oriented towards covering something up so as to avoid the shame of the truth.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So we expect—you know that’s his vulnerability. You know that was something that was going to be—like, you know, when I said to you, “It’s not going to be fixed overnight.” And especially around this list. It sort of makes sense that he’s going to try to make some things up a little bit. I’m not saying that excuses it. I’m just saying, like that actually quite fits the picture with how he functions. This list probably brings more shame to him than anything else. This and the websites. And so there may be moments he’s trying to sort of get around it, or not say something that he’s afraid will be too hurtful or makes him feel too ashamed of himself. [00:08:44]

CLIENT: Well, but then, even with the Life After Ramona explanation, I think I’m a little scared to pursue that. Because Ivan has been—whenever he was describing it in that context it was, “I was sure you were going to leave me. It was inevitable that you were going to leave me. You were so unhappy, like I was never good enough,” blah blah blah. And even that feels like an alternative to the like all these websites and the list. Like he was leaving or he was, you know, rejecting me.

THERAPIST: This is why I say even if it says—if even if we sort of say it did say Life After Ramona, that’s what it meant—that doesn’t mean that it’s sort of exactly more proof that he was about to go have an affair. Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: I do—

THERAPIST: Like people could write—

CLIENT: It’s just really hurtful. [00:09:29]

THERAPIST: It’s extremely hurtful. I’m not—there are so many reactions you’ll have to it meaning that. But I’m just—it, you know, that was occurring to me. That people could—there could be a total defensive self-protective maneuver to think Life After Ramona, if he’s thinking you’re so fed up with him, that he thinks you’re going to leave him any day now. So he’s protecting himself by like planning out his life without you. Do you know what I mean? Again, doesn’t excuse it. Doesn’t mean you shouldn’t have tremendous amounts of feelings about this. But there are so many explanations still for what is happening inside him psychically (ph), even though he’s writing Life After Ramona. Do you know what I mean?

And that’s—I think the more you’re just in probably what really was. And for him, too! The more he can get with Dr. Bourd into, “Yeah, it’s good (ph) for Life After Ramona. And why was I writing that? Why?” You know, what was happening? Was it self-protection? Was it aggression? Was it—was he really thinking about leaving in some, you know, reality-based way? Even if so, why? You know, was he fed up with feeling criticized, but still loved you? Do you know what I mean? See how that’s really different then like, “Ugh! I can’t stand Ramona anymore?” [00:10:43] (pause)

How are you?

CLIENT: I’m just—

THERAPIST: It’s a lot.

CLIENT: Like, yeah, overwhelmed. And now I’m even thinking—like the title of this was like SI. And he’s like, “That’s Self Introspection.” What if it wasn’t Self Introspection? And I don’t know. And it’s just—even if it is, you know like, “Oh, she’ll leave me,” he really did make a list, a really, really long list. And some of those things—it’s just—like I can’t. I don’t even want to talk about it with him. Because I can’t wrap my head around it.

Because some of them are genuine, like very direct criticisms of me. Very direct. Very clear that he’s angry about something. So I can get that. I can wrap my head around that. It seems like a really inappropriate and unproductive way to get it out. It’s not even like he (cries?) sat down in a down in a journal and just said, “I am so angry that she was complaining that it was a really big family thing.” (sniffles) It’s not like that. (sighs)

And then there are things on there that are pretty compatible with me. And then there are things on there that are completely like I could never be. I will never be taller. (cries?) I will never be—you know, like just certain things on there. And then I’m like, “What is that?” That’s the really bizarre like— [00:11:58]

THERAPIST: As I’m reading—what’s, so what stood out for you? [Do you think] (ph) there are things that are particularly hurtful, like taller?

CLIENT: Yeah. Like roughly 5’3 to 5’9, I think he wrote. Which just seems like the most like cutting. Like to honestly look at someone and be like, “You’re not tall enough.” He’s never complained to me about my height. Never! Not even in a joke. Liked that I was petite. Like just never—and I’m like, “Are you kidding me?” It’s like he—then it feels like he’s like building, you know like a (cries?) like a Barbie. Like a—like these are the features I want. And that’s just so different from saying (sighs), “I wish my spouse didn’t complain about really big family gatherings.” It’s just really, really different.

THERAPIST: It is really different.

CLIENT: (sighs) [00:12:50]

THERAPIST: And that’s kind of maybe what’s hard to grapple with that (pause) that’s what he’s doing. It’s exactly the feeling I had reading the List of a Woman. This is not—he’s not describing a human being. Do you know that? Like there’s no person who fits that bill. No woman. No man. He—it’s a total, total idealization. It is as though he’s building a robot, who is perfect at this and perfect at that. And perfect at this and perfect at that. And perfect at this. (pause) There’s not a single human being who will fit that bill on the face of the Earth.

So already, it feels like it’s—there’s something inside, where he’s struggling with dealing with just humanness. Like people do get annoyed at each other’s families in marriages all the time. (pause) Right? Or people are different heights. Or people have lost their temper or, you know. To be a human means you can’t have the list that [is what he has described] (ph). [00:13:57]

It’s so in stark contrast to his list for himself. He’s (ph) really human. He lists his imperfections, right? He puts depression, for example. I’m trying to think of what else. But—he puts a lot of positive things about himself, too—but he put seminary dropout. You know, like it’s actually not a self-idealization. He’s putting himself as a human being. [As he’s real] (ph), perhaps a bit needy. (pause) Averse to angry conflicts. (pause) There are ways it feels—the self-introspective side of it feels actually quite accurate in many ways. I don’t know if you had that sense.

CLIENT: I guess I felt like a lot of that was accurate. But then the like—I think it actually says, “Woman Looking For,” which is—

THERAPIST: Woman Looking For. [00:14:47]

CLIENT: Underneath his list. Like really (cries?) hurtful, obviously. He’s none of—(pause) he’s none of those things. I remember it when I like came across the list. And I just like had it up on my computer. And Emma saw that. She yelled like so many times. She’s like, “He is none of those things!”

THERAPIST: This part is not?

CLIENT: And it’s just like—so what is that? Woman Looking For? Like how is that self-interested? Like how is that? He’s like, “Oh, it’s what I want to be. It’s what I’d like to be. It’s what I—” But why is Woman Looking For? Like why? That makes no sense to me. I don’t understand that. (sighs)

THERAPIST: The way it’s even getting constructed in other words. Like what—

CLIENT: It’s like a personal ad!

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: And— (sighs)

THERAPIST: Instead of saying, “Gosh. I wish I were better at these things.”

CLIENT: Yeah! Or—it’s not Ramona is looking for, even. It’s not even like that type of a fantasy. It’s like –it feels very, very disconnected from my existence. [00:15:43]

THERAPIST: And from his existence. I mean, I—

CLIENT: I think, yeah. Maybe pretty unrealistic.

THERAPIST: Both.

CLIENT: (sighs)

THERAPIST: It’s a real kind of fantasy bubble that’s really removed from reality in so many different ways. That part.

CLIENT: (sighs) When I first confronted him about the height thing, he said—he’s like, “Because if I was ever alone again,” he’s like, “I wouldn’t want someone that ever reminded me of you.” And that (sighs?) feels hurtful. And then a while ago, I asked him about it again. I’m like, “I cannot wrap my around this. I do not understand. I’ve never heard you complain about my height.” (sighs) [00:16:28]

THERAPIST: And?

CLIENT: And he said—he’s like, “You’re going to think I’m a pig.” And I said, “OK.” And he’s like, “Because I wish that when we hugged like your face was closer to mine.” And I said— (cries?) I was like, “So what is that? So it’s about me. It’s not about me. Which is it?” He’s like, “Oh, it’s both.” I’m like, “How is it both?” (sighs) And I told him I thought he was piggish for making a list like that, which didn’t help. But I’m furious. And it doesn’t make it okay to say something like that, but I’m just unbelievably furious like that it exists. And then it just feels like we can’t talk about it, because he’s, I feel like almost inevitably, defending it. And that inevitably is like more hurtful to me.

THERAPIST: It is not. It’s far away from reality. You know? But what his explanations all, except for this last one sounds like actually more fits closer to probably what was in his mind at the time. But he’s otherwise so far away from what his real intentions are, it sounds like. So it’s hard. You can’t talk about it. You’re only going to get kind of fantasies about it. [00:17:39]

CLIENT: It’s just—it feels—it just feels bizarre to me. And it’s not like he wrote, “I wish she was taller. I wish we could, you know, I wish her face was next to mine when we hugged.” He didn’t write that. Roughly 5’3 to 5’9. It was like as if—it would be like if I wrote an ideal weight for him. (cries?)

THERAPIST: Yeah, that’s—so another reaction I had to it, Ramona —and I know this is maybe hard to hear, but it felt incredibly demeaning. Not just to you, but kind of—it’s a real objectification of a woman period. Do you know what I mean? It does feel like he’s kind of sadistically constructing a perfect Barbie doll. And that that’s the only woman who’s good enough. [00:18:27]

CLIENT: But I don’t—that would sound very narcissistic. And his list of like—

THERAPIST: It is narcissistic. (chuckles)

CLIENT: Woman Looking For clearly is—I mean, he’s not. I don’t know how he jumps from like the list that’s mostly realistic, but he leaves out a lot of things. He jumps from that to like Woman Looking For, completely unrealistic, completely like boy he would have to be some kind of (chuckles) top surgeon model to fit that list. And then like 75 things that—and I, I’m really really angry. (sighs)

THERAPIST: Yeah. It’s cruel.

CLIENT: (sighs) And I’m especially angry—

THERAPIST: It’s very cruel.

CLIENT: Because I know that. I know what he felt about me being critical and I feel like I’ve worked on it a ton as a result. Not just because of his feelings, but because I needed to as a person. But then on top of it, I really felt like, you know, I’m pretty responsible. I actually, I don’t know that I call myself smart, but I finished grad school and did well. And (gasps) I have a full-time job. Like I really, I work hard.

THERAPIST: There are many things on the list actually you (ph) do describe you. [00:19:32]

CLIENT: (sighs) I guess I just don’t—where he’s coming from—I don’t get how he looks at me as like able to pick me apart completely. And I don’t know if that’s what it—if it’s like coming from his own self-criticism, but I just feel like I’ve at least held down and make like—(sighs) I’ve been able to function a lot more than he has for the majority of our marriage. And (sighs) and that’s what makes—ugh, I’m so angry. Like how? I’m so angry.

THERAPIST: You must be furious. (pause) Say more about the anger.

CLIENT: I just feel like he picked me apart piece by piece by piece by piece by piece, piece. And I’m thinking like, “Wow.” Like I (gasps) finished college with a full tuition scholarship. And then I got a scholarship and went to grad school. And then I had a high GPA there. And then I got a job at a great hospital. And like, it’s not good enough. [00:20:31]

I like kept us afloat when he like refused to apply to jobs. Like I took out additional loan money. I worked over the summer. I worked in the fall semester of my second year. I like, I feel like I helped him up. I feel like (cries?) I got him help for his depression and ADHD, which I am still furiously furious about. Because gosh darn it, why didn’t his parents? Or why didn’t he? (sighs) Like I feel like I work really hard. I have friends. Like I function as a (cries?) a real person. I do my chores. I like, I’ve always been honest with him! Like I’m responsible, and I’m honest, and I’m (cries?) not throwing in the towel the minute he screws up. And I guess, I don’t feel like he’s done these things for me. So I don’t know where he gets off, quite frankly, like tearing me to pieces when I— (cries?) [00:21:23]

THERAPIST: (clears throat)

CLIENT: I just, I don’t know what else he wants from me. When I think of how stressed I was sometimes during school—like breaking out in hives every single day one finals week, because everything going on at home plus that—like I just, I’m so— (pause) Not having like quite enough to eat sometimes some weeks because we didn’t have enough money, because he like just would not work full time. And going through school like that.

And I just am so angry that after all that—like not only is he not grateful, not only does he like screw up my (gasps) graduation weekend—then afterward he has the nerve to be like, “This is what I’m really looking for.” It feels—I feel used. I feel completely used. (sighs) And it really fuels the fire when I’m like, “Why can’t you just write something nice about me?” And he’s like, “It’s too difficult.” I really like want to almost physically like shake him by the shoulders. And be like, “But you had—”

THERAPIST: This wasn’t difficult.

CLIENT: “So much time. Like so much time. And unlimited energy evidently to do this. But you can’t like work on a resume or write something nice about me. And I’m seriously pissed.” (sighs) (pause) (sighs)

THERAPIST: Boy, this wasn’t hard. [00:22:53]

CLIENT: I also—it like destroys me that he was able to do this. And we kept going to see Dr. Farrow. And he was able to sit there. And we talked about—I can’t count how many sessions we talked about me being critical. And how to be less critical. And how to like— And I feel like that was the bulk of so much of it. And every time, it’d (ph) be like, “Ivan, do you have anything to bring up?” “No, not, not really.”

And I’m like—I feel like an idiot. I feel like a schmuck, because my husband was making a list like this. And we’re actually going to couples counseling, and she has no clue. I have no clue. I don’t know if Dr. Bourd —I feel like he didn’t know. He says he told him about the Match.com one after it happened. And I felt like kind of hurt, because it’s not—I understand that he has to, you know, respect confidentiality and he’s not necessarily able to go tell Dr. Farrow like, “Hey! You guys need to talk about this in couples.” But I’m like, “We’re seeing three different people, and I still can’t figure out what the heck is going on?” [00:23:53]

I just like (sighs), “How can you do? How does this never weigh on your mind?” Especially for someone who’s so prone to guilt and shame and anger. Like how can it not weigh? Like if I did something like that it would torture me. And I would have to come clean! He’s like, “Oh, I did think about these things every day. Just like with seminary.” He’s like, “Every day it like played on my mind.” And I’m like, “Really? Because wouldn’t that get to be unbearable very quickly?” (sighs) It feels so disrespectful. It’s not like just that he screwed up. It’s like then not even enough respect to come clean.

THERAPIST: [He hid that] (ph) for a long time in both instances. (pause) [00:24:37]

CLIENT: (sighs) He said—on the list he has like someone who wants children. And I told him I thought that that was incredibly particularly cruel. Because that’s more than I’m unhappy with my wife. That’s more than I could be attracted to someone who was like this instead. That’s like I want a whole life, and a whole family, and a whole—and that’s like a whole different level. And he’s like, “Yeah. Every time I read the list, I would stop at that one and just cry, because you’re the only one I want to have children with.” And I was like, “Really?” Then like—

THERAPIST: He’s feeding you lines because he doesn’t know what to say right now about it.

CLIENT: (sighs) So what is that? Like was he thinking about like an ideal woman and that’s part of it? I don’t know.

THERAPIST: So one on the things I wonder about the sequence of it. Starting with this list of it—again, leaves out a lot of things, you’re right and maybe a number of these things actually do have elements of idealizing himself still. Right? Just for the record, I don’t mean this is a perfectly (inaudible 00:25:42) at all, as much as I was only trying to say there he is at least—it’s not a Ken doll he’s describing in himself.

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: Do you know what I mean?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So he is—there’s some degree of like pointing out his flaws as a person that happens in the first list. Then he moves to Woman Looking For. So what I start to wonder if there’s a way this is a massive defense against his own feelings of inadequacy. That he feels like he is not an adequate partner for you. He’s not a provider. He’s not a defender. He’s not stable. He’s not aspiring. You know? Like there—these actually are things you’ve articulated that you would like in a partner. Right? I mean, even just having aspirations, responsible, clean. Right? So in a way, it’s a description of the things that you’re looking for that he feels he’s not. [00:26:49]

So it starts to make me wonder is like has—was he drowning in so much of this sense of inadequacy, in your eyes? Whether that’s what you felt or not, what he was doing with your criticism really (ph) not, or what he’s doing with your really appropriate judgments of the things he was not doing well. Do you know what I mean? Was feeling like, “I’m such a horrible human being that I don’t like—I’m nowhere near what Ramona wants.” Right? And that he then goes on this kind of self-protective attack of saying, “Well, here’s my ideal woman.” Right? Like, “I’m going to describe now a perfect Barbie,” as a way of protecting himself from his own inadequacy. [00:27:35]

Again, none of this excuses it, Ramona. I think this list is incredibly actually bizarre. It’s a very strange thing to have done. It’s very atypical. Even when people go and have affairs, they don’t make a list like this. And extremely hurtful and cruel. (pause)

And yet, I think there are ways. The explanation that makes the most sense is that he was being—going on the attack to protect his own sense of inadequacy. That is narcissistic. That’s actually what people who are narcissistic do, for example. Like deep down, you feel so like your own worthless piece of shit, for example, so you devalue, demean, pick apart other people, because you feel like inside that’s in some ways unconsciously what you’re doing to yourself. [00:28:31]

CLIENT: Like he can only feel better about himself if he—if other people are less or inferior?

THERAPIST: At least in this bubble, that’s like the only way of protecting what he’s—his own like really deteriorated self-esteem at this point—is to build up and say, “Well, this is the perfect image I want.” I don’t think he always is doing that with you. I don’t like—in other words, I wouldn’t say he has narcissistic personality disorder in a formal kind of way, where there are people who go about the world all the time putting and demeaning other people down. That’s not the way Ivan is in his character.

But in this bubble, there’s a way it feels like he’s—it’s his desperate effort to protect his self-esteem. And it’s really primitive. I mean, that’s what I think when I say it’s bizarre. It’s kind of an indication of how degraded his own sense of himself is, or how kind of convoluted and complex it is, that he’d have to go through this. And that I think in some ways, Ramona, is more what is hard to grapple with, the bizarreness of it. Do you know what I mean? [00:29:41]

CLIENT: I can’t wrap my—I just like I can’t. Can’t get an explanation that seems helpful or adequate. And I feel like I can’t just certain pieces on that go.

THERAPIST: (pause) I think it makes sense like that you can’t get an explanation. I think one of the reasons it’s hard for three people even on your treatment team to explain it is that it’s pretty strange. You know, there’s a lot of—it feels like sort of sadism, and cruelty, and defensiveness, and attack, and belittling, and demeaning that is otherwise not where Ivan lives. [00:30:31]

Like I start to imagine, you know, how little he’s able to confront. Imagine this as a kind of all of a sudden he finally let out all of his rage, that he’s got to have for a lifetime of even being mad at his parents. Like I think half of this is—has nothing to do with you. Most of it has nothing to do with you. But holds inside it like this one space where he was able to let out the angry feelings that he’s stuffed under the rug his entire lifetime.

CLIENT: (sighs)

THERAPIST: That doesn’t mean you have to be okay with it, Ramona. Like this, you know, it makes sense that this would be profoundly hurtful and hard to get over. That it’s really hard to wrap your mind around every piece of this.

CLIENT: (sighs)

THERAPIST: But I do think it makes sense that it’s a kind of bubble of rageful (ph) feelings that came out. That I, you know, in the long run think are good for his development as a person. To get, like have the anger be more a part of his daily life when he’s frustrated with something. Direct confronting. Confront his parents. Assert himself more. Not in this way. [00:31:51]

CLIENT: (sighs)

THERAPIST: (pause) And you’re grappling with the question of what do you do with the fact that, at this stage at least, his way of managing angry feelings was so kind of sublimated in cruel directions.

CLIENT: I don’t know. And I feel—(sighs)—I feel so much anger, but I feel especially angry because while we’re spending so many sessions talking exhaustively about ways that I can be less critical, words that I shouldn’t use. Like (sighs) just flat out ignoring certain things that don’t happen and not saying a word about it. Like getting to, really kind of getting to the extreme where like things work if I shut up. [00:32:34]

And meanwhile Ivan is so much more critical in such an underground like way. I’ve never said—like as much as I’ve gotten angry about things, I’ve never sat down and picked him apart by 75 like characteristics and just like while I’m at it I’d also like it if he was, you know— Like, that’s what makes me— (sighs) It just feels like he and his parents sometimes have just been like I’m so critical, and I’m so judgmental, and anything to avoid reality. But then he’s able to do this. And it’s so much more. (sighs) [00:33:11]

THERAPIST: Again, because it’s so not what he does anywhere else in his life, it’s like—I don’t know how to describe this—like, you know, imagine, kids need to help their aggressions get shaped and worked into being effective in society. It’s like this part of him that is so unintegrated that it is very volatile, rageful, cruel, destructive. And it exists kind of in a bubble inside. And I think probably there are ways it still does.

Like it doesn’t sound like he’s worked through this enough to say, “Yeah, this is this bubble of rage. And I’m so sorry it came out at you. It’s meant for other people. And I was having a hard time asserting myself in the relationship. And this is the only way it came out, to protect myself. I couldn’t talk to you, for example, to your face about—” Not these things on the list, but I think if you were to be able to talk about the normal things that were bothering him in the relationship, and coming and say, “Oh, well, here’s what I want to work on,” or “I’m upset with Ramona for this,” in the couples therapy session, he wouldn’t need—there’s no need for going in to like sort of back channels for this kind of thing to have happened. [00:34:29] (clears throat)

CLIENT: I’ve asked him. I said, you know, wish we could have—I wish he could confront me, you know. Like I want it to be appropriate and respectful, not like this. But I wish he would confront me and even just say like, “Oh, Ramona, you know, I get that it’s overwhelming, but I did—I was upset a little bit that you, you know, (sighs) said that, you know, 12 people for a small family gathering was large for you.” Or like, “It makes me feel like you don’t want to hang out with my family.” Or—and I don’t know what more. You know, asking him to do that. I don’t know what more I’m supposed—

THERAPIST: You’re not. You’re not. You’re not. This is not on you. [00:35:06]

CLIENT: It’s just—it’s so angering when you try to get someone to—and then they do this instead. And it’s so much more hurtful then even an inappropriate, like even if you yelled at me like you never want to see my face! That would have been (chuckles?) less hurtful. At least it would have been direct.

And it’s worse because he never came clean and showed me this. I found it. And as much as I like (sighs) don’t want to violate privacy, I’m so grateful. I’m absolutely, like I’m unbelievably infinitely grateful that I did, because what if he had never told me? What if it had continued? What if he added to the list every time he got angry and decided that, “No, everything’s great. We’re not going to talk about it.”

I also don’t get it because I guess we spent—you know, we did spend a lot of sessions talking about how critical I am. But (sighs) for the times when we did talk about whatever we, you know, like the job thing or about the— (sighs) Why didn’t he even bring it into couples counseling if only to like be defensive and not want to talk about his stuff? I just don’t understand how. [00:36:11]

THERAPIST: Because he was incapable. And I think this is what—I don’t know that he is capable, yet, of doing that in his own development. Bringing it into your, the room, and to your face. Do you know what I mean? Like that actually requires a level of mature assertiveness that he— In front of you, in front of Dr. Farrow, maybe even in front of Dr. Bourd it’s only, “It’s all my fault. It’s all my fault. It’s all my fault,” right? That’s—he can’t assert in front of another person. It’s only in a private, like small bubble microcosm that he’s able to let these feelings out. I wonder, Ramona, have you brought this list into couples therapy? (pause) What would you think about doing that?

CLIENT: (sighs) To be honest, I worry. Because I feel like Dr. Farrow buys—I feel like she buys a lot of his explanations. And that’s not—I’m not questioning her skills. But I think her job is particularly difficult, because she, you know, she can’t take sides, and she can’t— You know, just because Ivan did this horrible thing, doesn’t mean that she then says, “Well, everything about—like it must be what it looks like.” And I get that. And it’s really complex. But then sometimes I feel powerless, because if he said something like, “Oh, I don’t want to be reminded of you in the future,” she’d be like, “Oh, okay.” And I worry that that would happen. And maybe that’s not fair. Maybe that wouldn’t happen. Maybe she’d be like, “That sounds like an excuse.” But I guess I feel like I— (sighs) [00:37:42]

THERAPIST: But so if you—if you say, “I would like to explain that he said that, but he earlier or after the fact, said that ‘Actually, you’re going to think I’m a pig.’“ So you need to say that to her. You need to—that needs to be said out loud, because that— There’s not— It’s unequivocal when you describe that. You know what I mean? It’s not—it’s kind of hard to fight, or protest, and [see it] (ph) a different way.

I also think frankly, Ramona, reading the list, she may be inclined just to buy his excuses. It’s hard for me to imagine that because of—I think it would be important for her to read the list on her own. Because there’s a punch that gives you a sense of what you’re grappling with, what’s going on inside him, that just is sort of data. Do you know what I mean? Rather than hearing it from you and your interpretation, or hearing it from him and his interpretation, here it is. So she can just sort of get a kind of a little bit unbiased view of it first. I think I would be helpful if she was willing to read it in advance. I know it’s going to be hard for you and for Ivan in different ways to bring it in there, but— [00:38:56]

CLIENT: I’m just—I’m scared of that. And I’m also— So, Ivan is going to talk with Dr. Bourd again today about potentially me coming into a session, which wouldn’t be in for another two weeks. Which I guess I’m annoyed about. But I even feel a little scared about that. Not because— I mean, I barely—I don’t really know Dr. Bourd. I’ve met with him like once. But part of me is so scared to, I think honestly, like trust someone outside of you to have like an objective (sigh) or to be able to say like, “These are maybe cop out excuses.” Or—I just—and I don’t want to engage and spend time investing in and encouraging Ivan to buy into those types of things if they’re completely not true. [00:39:40]

THERAPIST: We had a brief exchange, Dr. Farrow, Dr. Bourd, and I, about this question of you’re going in. And (pause) I after the fact ended up having a little, some hesitation. I think Dr. Bourd has some hesitations. Just really wanting to make sure it’s going to be helpful to the both of you to do that. And one of the concerns is that what he might say to you, if—

CLIENT: Who?

THERAPIST: Dr. Bourd. If you had a private conversation, and he were to tell you what he really thought, would, might be different than what he would say in front of Ivan at this stage in their relationship.

CLIENT: Why is that? [00:40:24]

THERAPIST: In other words, there may be times that— (pause) If he’s working right now with Ivan’s defensiveness around it, sometimes you’re not going to immediately confront the defense, and say like, “You’re wrong about this. You’re making up lies.” Right? I’m not saying—I’m reading beyond what he said. Because I don’t know. I don’t know his full opinion about all this. But I do know that he said,—to be honest with you, this is sort of almost a direct quote—”I have a hard time buying into what he says all the time.” He says when he’s in the room, and he’s explaining it, it sounds convincing. But when you think about it sort of out of the heat of the moment, it still doesn’t add up and doesn’t make sense. So I am saying that to you because the side of what I think you might want to accomplish going in there is just hearing more of Dr. Bourd opinion. And that’s kind of his two cents at this point. (pause) [00:41:27]

If I said to you—for example, let’s say I didn’t believe something you were saying—but if I just said to you, “I don’t believe you,” you might never come back again. So he [maybe put and partly] (ph) sort of pacing himself with how to constructively, slowly, over time challenge some of the defenses. Like people’s defenses exist for a reason. If I were to say the minute, the first day I meet someone, “You’re defending yourself in this XYZ,” like people—it’s not palatable. So he may—they may be at a place where it’s just slow going to get to that point. He’s not directly confronting some of it. Again, I’m extrapolating a little bit. And I wouldn’t want him to sort of, to you get the impression that he thinks everything’s fine, just because he’s not directly confronting it.

CLIENT: OK. [00:42:22]

THERAPIST: That said, maybe this will force Dr. Bourd to actually confront some of it in a way, because you’re both in the room. You know, I don’t know. There could be upside (ph). But I just know he wanted to be thoughtful with Ivan about kind of pros and cons. And (pause) likewise I want to sort of check in with you about what you hope it will do, what it might not do even though you hope it’ll do.

CLIENT: I think I’m looking for (pause) essentially you to like— This doesn’t make sense. But when you’re able to look at the list, and you’re able to say like, “This doesn’t add up,” I really appreciate that and value that. And I feel like it’s objective. You have no like personal agenda in (gasps?), you know, defending Ivan or defending me. And I guess I’m looking for someone to do that with Ivan and me. Because I feel like until that happens, he’s able to keep—we’re going to keep going down this rabbit hole of, “It’s this. Oh, wait, it was this. Oh, it was kind of both. Oh—” And that’s not helping. It’s actually more hurtful. But I don’t know how to, how to do that. [00:43:34]

THERAPIST: Yeah. (pause) So maybe I can encourage—I don’t know if Dr. Bourd has read the list directly. Do you know if he has?

CLIENT: So, Ivan said that he had like put it onto his phone and read it to Dr. Bourd at some point. But I don’t know exactly how accurate—

THERAPIST: Read the whole thing?

CLIENT: That is.

THERAPIST: That would take up ten minutes of a session just reading it.

CLIENT: I don’t know how accurate that is.

THERAPIST: Yeah. So, I can ask him has he seen the list (chuckles) or did he hear the list. It sounds like Dr. Farrow definitely has not.

CLIENT: Nope.

THERAPIST: And I can encourage both of them to take a look because— And say—you know, this is again, I’m in some ways in your corner here,—but that you’re feeling like he’s— There’s an accountability that is not happening until that happens in a way that feels like you’re really getting at what this was, so you know what you’re working with, that you can’t move forward past this.

CLIENT: (sighs)

THERAPIST: How would that feel?

CLIENT: I think that would help. [00:44:37]

THERAPIST: What I don’t know still is where the best place like if—certainly with Dr. Farrow I think it’s really appropriate. And I think she’ll hear from me that I, you know, that you’re feeling like he needs to be held more accountable. (pause) I don’t know whether Dr. Bourd and Ivan will decide on, in their relationship is it helpful and healthy enough to have you in. Would you be open to it if they decide yes? Does that—like how do you feel about it?

CLIENT: I’m a little scared.

THERAPIST: [Oh, that would—] (ph)

CLIENT: And it’s not—how do I put this? When you—when we separated, when Ivan lived somewhere else for three months—and you said you need to stop talking with Dr. Bourd at all, like that was just like— I always worried, and I still worry that like he knew about the websites. He knew. Like maybe he knew about the list and never said anything. And I know that that’s his job—

THERAPIST: He didn’t! Just so you know. At least—yeah, he wouldn’t lie to me. (chuckles?) [00:45:35]

CLIENT: But then I also wonder like did Ivan really have an affair and Dr. Bourd knew about it the whole time, but he— You know, he’s doing his job. Like he’s not allowed to say anything, but also like oh we separated, and then things never—you never just like started talking again or like, you know. (sighs) He has figured out a lot, but he’s able to let it on because he would—but you know, Ivan wouldn’t continue to confide in him. I worry about that. So I guess I essentially don’t trust him a lot. And it’s—I understand that that’s his job, but it feels frustrating, someone trying to figure out what’s going on.

THERAPIST: Just so you know, at least what I know about that, there are things you were telling me that Dr. Bourd didn’t know yet. So when I would ask, “Do you—have you heard about this factor?” I would not explain any details and he would say, “Shocking. No idea,” you know.

CLIENT: I sometimes even wonder that Ivan is able to do this in their sessions. Like able to not—he was clearly able to see (chuckles?) an individual therapist for months and have—

THERAPIST: We got to stop.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: But I’ll shoot that e-mail out to both of them, and—

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: You and Ivan can keep talking about it. I understand your hesitation with Dr. Bourd. So— (pause)

CLIENT: Will you be here next week?

THERAPIST: I will. Monday.

CLIENT: OK. Great.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Thank you. [00:46:53]

THERAPIST: I’m in Monday. Not always. Not in here. (inaudible)

END TRANSCRIPT