TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: I guess I want to pick up where we left off.

THERAPIST: What’s on your mind? I’m curious.

CLIENT: I felt like it was helpful it was pretty helpful last session to start talking about it even though it’s really difficult. It felt good in that kind of...to release some anxiety about talking about it, to finally start talking about it. So in that sense, that was really good. It felt good to hear your perspective on it that felt...I don’t know, it felt legitimizing how I felt about it that it really is something hurtful and it really is very bizarre and it... I guess that felt good because of course no one else has been able to do that for me because I’m not going around sharing it obviously, for good reason. So thank God...it was good. [00:01:11]

THERAPIST: (inaudible) have someone else react to it (inaudible) almost...

CLIENT: Yeah, and to even hear you say like, if their explanations [that Ivan] was giving for things on the list that kind of can’t add up, can’t go together, that maybe he’s trying to figure out. And to hear that from you an objective third party felt helpful because I’m really struggling to try to figure out what it is and why, and it sounds like Ivan is too. On the other hand, you talked about it couple’s this past week?

THERAPIST: Yes, we had an exchange, just so you know. We talked (inaudible) no. Or two cents about about (inaudible) session, and... the three of us talked. Dr. Bourd also was on the e-mail to you (inaudible) we all just shared some thoughts about what was transpiring. But I’m so curious to hear your perspective. [00:02:12]

CLIENT: Yeah, I actually almost was like...I thought a couple of times about asking you if we could talk for just like a couple minutes because I was so worked up actually. But I got over it. But I felt that it was not helpful, and that’s not a critique of Dr. Farrow I just don’t know how to talk about it together in a couple’s setting, and we’re not making progress at home clearly if Ivan’s like, one week it’s this answer, and the next week it’s another answer, and we’re not making headway. And I felt a little reluctant because I’d e-mailed it to her and I said, “If you don’t have time” because I’d just seen you the day before and I said, “If you don’t have time, I completely understand. But at some point Dr. Henderson suggested you might want to look at this before we’re in the room. And we’d really like for that to happen before we talk about it in the session.” So she’s like, “Oh, I’ve got a couple minutes to look at it.” So I feel like maybe she wasn’t very well prepared which isn’t a critique; I mean we could have put it off another week or so but she kind of left it open, and she said several times, “I don’t know how to do this. I want to be honest with you, I don’t know how to approach this, it’s like a hot potato.” [00:03:34]

Which, I feel so...I feel bad, but I have mixed feelings because on the one hand, of course you want someone to work with who’s really honest but on the other hand, it didn’t inspire confidence that she... I’m looking for her to take the burden off of like, how to deal with this and how to...relying on her expertise and experience, and she’s like, “I have no idea.” So I didn’t feel very good. And I told her what I told you which is that I was worried that sometimes Ivan brings in explanations, and she really engages and follows it which is hard because on the one hand, it wouldn’t be great if she just like, for either of us, said, “Well, I don’t know if that’s true.” But on the other hand, it’s like, I’m the only one in the room who’s like... We’re dealing with a history of my husband lying to get out of trouble, you know, hiding things to get out of trouble, so maybe when he’s discovered hiding something, it’s prudent or common sense to say like... “Want to be a little skeptical of these answers before we take one as gospel.” And it feels like I’m the only one in the room who thinks that that’s legitimate, but it’s obvious to me. I know Ivan’s trying to work on this with Dr. Bourd, but I don’t... (sigh) It’s really tough, but he said, he’s like, “No, the list has nothing to do with Ramona. I did it to hurt myself and I was just punishing myself.” And she’s like, “Well, I’ve heard you say that so many times, Ivan.” She’s like, “I really believe you, and if I was your individual therapist, I would spend so much time talking with you about that.”

And I just like kind of wanted to leave the room because she became very sympathetic and compassionate towards Ivan. It was how the list was hard for Ivan. And I’m sure to an extent I’m sure it is. I’m sure it was painful to Ivan and maybe part of it was kind of masochistic, but on the other hand, I guess to me... (sigh) I’m biased, I know I’m you know, clearly... But like sitting in a couple session hearing how it’s hard for Ivan and punishing to Ivan and it’s not like there’s almost no acknowledgment that he wrote these horrible things about me, and horrible is the really nice word for some of them. It felt horrible. [00:05:55]

THERAPIST: It sounds like a pretty messy session. There’s so so much going on in the session that is really hard to get a hold of for all three of you. I don’t I have to tell you that I don’t take that as just a bad sign. There’s a lot of turbulence and (inaudible) I worried when I heard how the session happened that I might have set you up for something that was going to be really disappointing no matter what because bringing the list to couple’s therapy is going to be very different than bringing the list here. Do you know what I mean? The complexity of what you’re both having to (inaudible) together and what she’s holding about both of you...and what she doesn’t know about you, and what she doesn’t know about Ivan that I would know about you and Dr. Bourd would know about Ivan, right?...means that you’re not going to get the same exact reaction from her as you would from me. And I worry maybe I set it up for you in the kind of feeling that it would be exactly the same, that she’s have the exact same reaction, you know what I mean? [00:07:11]

CLIENT: Yeah, I don’t think it’s realistic for me to think that, but I think I kind of did. I guess I struggle with the idea of couple’s therapy in this context because I guess I think it would be easier if Ivan and I had an argument about something mutual and we wanted to talk about how we argued about it or, what each of us brought to the table, what each of us did wrong. In the list, I feel whether it’s... No, I think it’s correct. I feel like I have no fault. I didn’t write the list. I didn’t... There wasn’t something I did that...he... I mean maybe he’s angry at me for a number of things, but it’s not like... There wasn’t something I did, and he reacted directly to it. He did it in secret. I didn’t even know it was happening. I feel so blindsided . And this is really a Ivan thing, not an us thing. But it’s affecting us. So I think it’s really hard in the session when each of us is supposed to be taking responsibility and accountability because it feels horrible for the person who was betrayed. It feels horrible. [00:08:18]

THERAPIST: It totally did that, this is where it’s really... It’s further complicated by the fact that Ivan doesn’t get it yet. He gets parts of it, so when she says, “I believe you, Ivan about...that this was self-punishing,” I believe him too. I absolutely believe that was a big layer of it. I don’t think that’s the whole explanation, though. I think there are other layers too that he’s not aware of yet. So what as the couple’s therapist do you do when you have one person who just isn’t there yet? He’s not here in the place you’re wanting him to be to have the kind of dialogue that you were hoping to have. He can’t have it yet.

Does she call him out on what he doesn’t get? Probably not actually that appropriate because he just isn’t there yet. It won’t be palatable. He’ll get really turned off by it. Like, that’s the work of his individual therapy. And yet, it sounds like what ended up happening was, you guys had been in this place before where then you get increasingly angry and upset. And Dr. Farrow said she had a little bit of a feeling that you were even like not that you said this out loud, but questioning her professionalism, like she didn’t know what she was doing, or...really didn’t get her to understand it. So she’s experiencing your criticism of her, and then all the criticism, the person criticizing in the room becomes you. Rather than, it’s Ivan. Do you see what I mean? [00:09:49]

CLIENT: But it feels so frustrating because, quite frankly if it makes me a horrible or critical person, it doesn’t feel great when you discover this list, and you finally bring it to couple’s and she’s like, “Oh, I spent a couple minutes. I don’t know what to do, but let’s talk about it.” It felt like for me it’s huge and sensitive, and for her I feel like it’s an hour of her day, it’s a client, it’s a patient. And for her she...it’s not personal, but it feels like...it’s not a problem for her. And it’s not supposed to be, I get that. It’s not supposed to be, but it felt like she didn’t care. And that’s me. She’s never like said anything like that, but I guess for me it was like so huge and I felt so like...”You spent a couple minutes and your telling us you don’t know what to do. Maybe I would feel a lot better you said, ‘I think the next time we meet, I’ll be more prepared, but let’s not tackle something so traumatic when I’m unprepared.’“ And I know that’s critical, but this is like really important to me, so it wasn’t like...” [00:10:57]

THERAPIST: And I get how she disappointed you in that moment that response.

CLIENT: Well, and then (overlapping voices) I brought in my skepticism of like, Ivan is giving answers for things that are like, it’s one or the other, some of them they can’t both be true; “Oh it’s about someone else in the future.” “No, it’s about you.” Which is it? And I just suggested we not engage every possible answer, that we take some time, or that this has happened, that we at least acknowledge that this has happened. And Ivan’s like... Ivan got really defensive...he got really defensive. And he’s like, “I hear you saying like, well, don’t believe me, I’m just going to lie.” And Dr. Farrow’s like, “Isn’t that what you’re saying?” And in that moment I felt like it wasn’t professional, quite frankly, and I felt like she was taking sides, and I think with her being so sympathetic about Ivan saying it was hurtful to him and hard for him, it was going to be impossible for me to feel like she wasn’t taking sides, because even with his list in the room, Ivan is still a victim. And I’m like (sigh) what do I do with that? It feels impossible. [00:12:06]

THERAPIST: I wonder for you Ramona if something like that... I wonder what stopped you from saying at the beginning of the session, “If you haven’t had a chance to read it in detail, I don’t feel that’s safe talking about it today.” Or, “Dr. Farrow, if you feel like you don’t want to read it “ which I would also respect if she felt like, especially as the couple’s therapist, I could imagine if I’m the couple’s therapist, if I start reading this list that was sent to me by you, I don’t know Ivan... I wouldn’t know if Ivan on board with my reading it. It would feel a little bit like taking your side and kind of doing something intrusive a little bit.

So I’d want to talk to you about the frame first for, “Do I read this or not? Do you read it in the session out loud? How does Ivan feel about it?” you know, this kind of thing. So that it has a safe context to think about how to explore it together because it’s an unusual thing to have this kind of thing brought into the room. I wonder if that’s what she meant when she said, “I don’t know what to do with this,” meaning like, “We need to be thoughtful about what this means in our work to bring this is in.” But it doesn’t sound like it got conveyed in a way that you understood that. It felt more like she just felt in over her head, kind of thing, or... [00:13:34]

CLIENT: Yeah, she just kept saying, “I don’t know how to handle this,” and I kept saying, “We don’t have to talk about it today. I just wanted to send it.” I even said in the e-mail, “I understand you probably don’t have time to read it before our session. That’s fine. I just want to send this. And hopefully you can at some point look over it, and at some point we can have a session on it.” I think I made that really clear, but then she kept saying she had no clue what to do. And I guess I do have an expectation from someone who has expertise and experience, and...a really highly paid professional, that they...if they’re like, “I have no clue what to do,” that they’d find a more tactful way to say that, and then say, “Let’s do this when we’re more prepared since I just got it.” And I know that’s really critical, and I’m not supposed to be critical, but...

THERAPIST: It’s not that you’re not supposed to be critical, Ramona. If you didn’t have criticism, we’d have a problem, ok? (chuckle) Seriously. Being critical is an important part of who people are being able to make judgments about things that are disappointing and things that are feeling good enough. I...When I’m sort of having what evolved and ended up being a feeling in the room that, “Ramona’s critical again” you guys haven’t been in that place for a while. Do you know what I mean? In that process and that space. At least I don’t know if this is how it’s felt to you, but – Dr. Farrow conveys to me that she’s over the past number of months had tremendous empathy for you, and pain for you, and even feeling like she’s not even sure how you could go back to Ivan after the things he’s done to you. Do you know what I mean? [00:15:15]

CLIENT: Yeah, but she doesn’t really say that. In fact, I told her when she really started to sympathize with Ivan, I said...I thought that the list was really bizarre. She’s like, “Yeah, no. I can see. I would be angry. I’d be wondering if I wanted to be with this person.” And it felt very different from your response. and I get what you’re saying I shouldn’t be expecting the same response. But it felt... This is my lens I don’t think she’s actually a biased, you know, like...it just felt like we were tackling as a couple’s problem as opposed to something like, we both played a role in it. And that there’s so much sympathy for Ivan.

THERAPIST: And this is what’s so hard. Her job is to find the couple problem do you know what I mean? And I get what you’re saying. It’s sort of disappointing to bring in something that is just his problem, or if he brings in something that is just your problem. She’s leaving her role a little bit if she starts to just focus on your problem, or just focus on his problem. But at the same time, that could be named as a dilemma in a way that might feel like, “Oh she gets it that this is a Ivan issue,” but our job in this space is to kind of think about how this played out together. And it sounds like that’s not getting named, and I hear how that feels like you’re getting blamed for something that has nothing to do with you. [00:16:37]

CLIENT: Well, and it feels like [Ivan’s getting] (ph) a ton of sympathy for something that he really did. And I’m sure it is painful for him. I’m sure the assaults and the websites and the lists, like...the life after Ramona vault (ph), like I’m sure this is something very painful and very shaming and very...I’m sure he feels unbelievably...I’m sure he feels some really horrible things. But I think I become a doormat when then we sit and talk about how exclusively or the majority how terrible it is for him. And I’m like, “Wait a minute. I came into couple’s therapy to talk about this heartbreaking list that my husband wrote about me, and now I’m supposed to be there to support and care for him.” What happened? and he comes into a role where he gets very defensive which I’m sure if I was in a couple’s session and we were talking about something I did like that, I’d feel defensive too. And he gets angry and defensive as opposed to breaking down and being vulnerable, and...

THERAPIST: And yet it’s also probably that he’s getting angry. That’s been a hard feeling for him to have. Wouldn’t want that to be (overlapping voices) [00:17:43]

CLIENT: Yeah, it just doesn’t feel good that it’s like defensive.

THERAPIST: Not when it’s something he screwed up about, right. So here’s another thought on all this, Ramona, just thinking about how hard the session was last week. Even bringing it here was really anxiety provoking and painful and difficult even though it’s important and you felt like it’s really useful. I wonder if this has been kind of another elephant in the room for you and Ivan that has been... It brings up so much bad feeling for both of you including if even just one layer for Ivan is so much shame that he wrote this list, that he almost can’t even stand to be in his own skin. So much hurt for you, so much anger, so much sadness, so much confusion that you mostly have avoided it for some time, or when you do get into it, it doesn’t go anywhere useful that feels like you’re kind of metabolizing it. It made sense to me that when this list emerged on the scene of consciousness, it was going to be really turbulent both here and in couple’s therapy.

So part of what I even as horrible as that session felt, as angry as you probably are at Dr. Farrow in ways that she handled it I wonder if this was sort of inevitable because it’s bursting through of something terrifying for both you and Ivan. And when you’re both terrified, you retreat to kind of...your safer difference of places. This is what I was trying to say in my e-mail response, kind of in your defense about how this part transpired, is that I think you end up holding the anger and criticism for you and Ivan as a couple so often. And that because your natural place even as a child to an unusual degree was to be a fighter. You would say, [you used to] (ph) bargain with your parents...to get them to pay a bill where some other kids would have just been...sort of folded over and played dead and died in that context, you really remained the fighter on behalf of what you wanted and needed. So you hold the anger for you and Ivan. He holds the shame and hurt, and I actually thing some of that is yours, and some of the anger is his. And you guys sometimes get polarized around this on the surface when you are most vulnerable. And this was a real vulnerability coming on the scene, so it makes some sense that you’d get like the polarization of shame and anger...on the surface would be what happened in the context (ph) of this. And my hope for you and I said all of this to Dr. Farrow about what my senses about what might have happened in the process is that you can both find your way back more towards the center, so there’s room for you to be hurt, vulnerable, shamed even filled, Ramona, with your own self-loathing I don’t mean in the same way as Ivan as much as... This list I think makes you feel horrible about yourself. [00:21:03]

CLIENT: It does, and when I told Ivan that I wondered if it wasn’t just a little bit narcissistic that he builds himself, and this woman looking for like fantastical... It’s a complete fantasy, you know this list he builds himself up, and then he tears me down piece by piece by...I mean like... Really intensely that that feels narcissistic. And he’s like, “I’m telling you that the list was about me and about hurting myself, and you think it’s about you, and you think I’m narcissistic.” And I was like, “How can you say that? How can you imagine finding a list that your spouse wrote about looking forward (ph) and not feel...how could that ever not be personal? How could that ever not be...(pause)

THERAPIST: And yet it may have less to do with you than you think. In other words, I think this is in a way where you are (inaudible). The list if he’s attacking someone, I think it’s actually, factually, not you as much as it is some relationship with his parents and his history. Do you know what I mean? [00:22:21]

CLIENT: But when I have said to him like, “Ivan, I wonder if you aren’t really angry for so many years of your parents neglecting things; I wonder if you aren’t really angry at yourself for letting things go, like dropping out of seminary instead of getting help; I wonder if you aren’t really angry about that, or you really are angry because then you married someone who wanted you to be like in reality very much.” And that was what came out in a lot of harsh, critical ways, and then even when it comes out in loving, less critical ways, it’s still really hard for him to hear confrontation. And I wonder if he’s not super angry about that. And he’s like...he doesn’t think. He’s like, “Oh, I am angry at my parents, just not like you are.” And I don’t know. I feel like he doesn’t...I don’t know. I can’t figure it out, and there were times when I said to him what you suggested, that we need to share the anger about something...

So he keeps saying he recently started saying he wants to leave Subway, and he wants to get a new job. And I’m like, “That’s great.” (inaudible) last Sunday, he was like, “Would you help me with my resume?” I said, “Sure.” He never got it out. And then a couple times during the week he was going to work on it never got it out. And then yesterday Emma was over for Easter, and he’s like, “I’m just going to go next door for a little bit, give you guys some time. I think I just want to work on my resume a little bit.” I’m like, “Ok.” He came back, he’s like, “Oh, I went through my e-mail.” And I knew where this was going, and I said Later we talked, and I said, “Ivan, I wonder, like I get so anxious and frustrated with this situation. That a year ago, you were just going to work at Subway until you could find something else, and here we are.” And I said, “I think it would be so helpful if we could each vocalize...you know like if we shared feeling frustration or anger or even not to use the D word, but like disappointment...And if you came to me and said, ‘Boy, I wish...I ‘ve got to get on this. This is a mess’ instead of me always...” (sigh) The worst part is, he says that he and I don’t know if it’s true or not, but he always says, “I do feel that.” I’m like, “Then why don’t you come and say it? Why don’t you be the one to bring it to the table? With the lists and with the websites and stuff, he says how hurtful it is for him and how painful, or... I said, “Ivan, why is it that I’m the one who wants to talk about it then? Why aren’t you saying, ‘This is on my mind every single day. I feel horrible. I just need to talk with you.’ “ I don’t know how to make that happen. I don’t know how for us to share. And I feel like if Ivan could take on more anger about what he did with the list and...if he could verbalize that, then I could have some space to be hurt and be in pain and be vulnerable and...” [00:25:11]

THERAPIST: In this case it’s not so much anger at the list. You’re talking about if he could take on accountability for what he did. That’s different than being angry at you. (overlapping voices)

CLIENT: Like share the feelings about, “So I’m really angry about the list, or I’m really frustrated or confused about it.” And if he could share...I don’t know. If he could take on some of the feelings of being angry that it happened, or sharing (overlapping voices) or sharing the anger that led to making it. Then...instead of him being the vulnerable, hurt one, and then I have to...I can’t sit down, and like...

THERAPIST: This is what’s so complicated about his psyche. He’s so angry at himself that he can’t speak about it. And this is where it becomes a cop out a little bit. Do you know what I mean? There’s a well-known paper, The Grandiosity of Self Loathing. The idea, if I hate myself more than anyone else in the world, then in a way you become protected against people hating you for the things that are disappointing about you because you’re the biggest hater of yourself of all. And yet it can garner empathy because you’re so hard on yourself. Do you know what I mean? [00:26:21]

CLIENT: It’s like the same thing that happened right before he left. It’s like the time I came home and he was like, he had his propped up, watching TV with the air conditioning on, eating a meal or whatever. And he was just like, “Aw, I’m so sorry. I should not have the air on. I’m wasting money. Aw, I can’t believe I’m sitting here with my feet. I should be work “ Just like wallowing in self-pity over something that I never criticized. And I’m like... I don’t want to feel sorry. I don’t want to feed into it. It’s so frustrating. And just like when he talks about how hard the lists and how hard the assaults and how hard all of that is on him I’m sure it is, but I feel like it’s so inappropriate or so unfair for me to be expected to be his shoulder to cry on because I’m like, “Wait a minute. You did all this horrible stuff to me, and I’m helping you out? What the heck?” (sigh)

THERAPIST: I understand that feeling.

CLIENT: I feel like the roles should be switched. [00:27:23]

THERAPIST: It’s like in a way, Ramona, you’re up against now, what do you do with the fact that he can only progress in his self-awareness as fast as he can progress? Do you know what I mean? What if you have some more ideas? It’s not that we know I don’t know the definitive quality, what the list means, I’m not [meeting with him] (ph), but what if you can have some ideas about it that are more well developed than his ideas?

CLIENT: I don’t know how we get anywhere. So even if you and I talk about it and you say, “I think he’s really really angry at his parents and himself and you for the...” How do I share that with him in a way that we can move on?

THERAPIST: Well, what if even Dr. Bourd says things like that to him and he can’t take it in? Do you know what I mean? Like if he sort of like Dr. Bourd has spoken a lot about trying out ideas that...many of them don’t Ivan doesn’t take up...as either not ready or their just now resonating or... So a lot of things don’t...he just doesn’t take in. Some he does, but a lot of things he doesn’t. So it’s even...I guess I’m trying to share this part with you because it’s even like, even his own individual therapist what if there are pieces where he is and pieces where he isn’t? Not to devalue Ivan either because there may be places in here where there are things that I could say to you that are not palatable to you or intolerable or frustrate you. Like if I start to say you could come across as critical of Dr. Farrow in a way that made her uncomfortable, you know? I don’t know whether you can take that in or hear that about yourself or not, and I might be inclined not to say it sometimes because we’re still working on layers of that, you know what I mean? So I don’t think this is only Ivan and Ivan’s problem and this is not just you and Ivan any person in individual therapy, there are things people are ready to hear and not ready to hear. And yet I think there are things he’s not ready to hear. My experience with you is, you’re pretty receptive even if there’s something you really don’t want to hear or maybe (ph) disagree with, you often will kind of think about it, want to think about it out loud to receive what I’m talking about and mull it over at least. Do you know what I mean? [00:29:59]

CLIENT: I think so, but something I worry about with Ivan and I’ve tried to talk with him is I that think he is paralyzed by fear of failing, and paralyzed by fear of succeeding. So on his birthday, I was like, “What do you want to do this year? What do you want to see happen? You’re 27, like what do you...?” He’s like, “Oh, I want to discover.” Like, ok. A couple weeks ago, I was like, “Oh, you want to look for a new job. What kind of jobs do you want? What do you want to do like, as a career?” He’s like, “I want to change the world.” I’m like, “Oh, those are wonderful things.” But I also said, “Ivan, you know, I think they are, maybe purposefully even if unconsciously, like so vague and huge and so like...after a year you could be like, ‘Sure, I discovered things.’ “ You know, you can’t really fail or succeed at that. And then I noticed he doesn’t make short term goals. He doesn’t...so if I want him (sigh)

THERAPIST: He’s really different from you. [00:30:59]

CLIENT: He is, and sometimes I used to like that because he wouldn’t put tons of pressure on himself and be so hard, and he would be able to tell me, “Ramona, you worked... Let’s take a break.” You know like, that used to be attractive, but then we like pulled so far apart, where now I think he’d almost rot (ph). Like it’s terrible to me, like disgusting to me that’s like a harsh word, but that he’d rather just stay at Subway... Because he might get a good job that would be challenging. He could get fired. Then he would be pressured to get another...like a job higher up, or like... (sigh)

THERAPIST: You know, I had a thought that I didn’t say out loud last week but stayed with me when I was corresponding with Dr. Bourd and Dr. Farrow, about you know when I said it felt like he was making a list for a party? That was like a description of a party? It made me wonder if there’s a way that he’s felt like what you were looking for was a Ken doll. And I don’t say that to say that is what you’re looking for, but I wonder if Ivan has been feeling like, “I’m not that guy. I’m not going to be...I’m a wanderer. I want to discover. I don’t want to get on a career trajectory and have goals by the end of the year.” Maybe for defensive reasons, maybe because that that’s not who he is. I don’t know all of it yet, how much it is defensive. But I wonder if he like, also part of the list is him saying, insisting, “This is me. I’m not a Ken doll.” Like his, the description (inaudible) he’s actually really spot on in some places like some of them, undesirable qualities to you. [00:32:44]

CLIENT: Yeah. And to him.

THERAPIST: And to him. Or even [somewhere] (ph), he’s saying, “This is me, that I’m not This is me! I’m not going to change it. Like, that’s kind of the way I am.” You know, I just wondered if there was a way he was picking up on there being things you want from him I think some of which have to do with him growing up, and being in reality which are going to be good for him no matter what. Maybe some of which are kind of like what your image of who you want to be married to is. And what if it’s not him? Like, what if there are ways that he’s never going to be that person?

CLIENT: And then, are you saying that he made the list about a woman to kind of get back at me because he felt like I did that to him?

THERAPIST: Again, I would say that unconsciously. I don’t think he’s conscious of it. I think it does still remain a kind of way of punishing, like, “If only he could be the perfect Ken doll for the Barbie, this is how...this is his decrepit self.” Do you know what I mean? The way it reads, it is also really masochistic, it’s masochistic, and it’s sadistic. It’s getting you back a little bit. Like, “If you want me to be a Ken doll, then I’m going to want you to be a Barbie” kind of thing. I don’t think he’s conscious of that though, yet. So you can say that to him. (inaudible) I think he will, at this point, you have that experience last week of...he’ll just say, “No, that’s not what it’s about.” I think there’s a lot of self-loathing that he’s not more like a Ken doll. You know what I mean? I think he then does articulate a layer of it that makes you feel like, “Oh, does he want something? Or is there something he thinks is a perfect image that I’m not?” that hits a nerve inside you about your own history and your childhood of self-loathing. And I think when you are filled with self-loathing, you also get like (inaudible) you get more on edge and ready to go on the attack. [How are you feeling?] (ph) [00:34:47]

CLIENT: I just um [It’s hard] (ph) I just um. I wasn’t expecting that sorry. (crying) I’m just thinking of the list and I’m thinking of...And I guess I don’t really understand because I...I’m not saying I’m a great wife, or even a great person but I feel like I was really... When we got married, Ivan knew what he was getting. And I have been exactly what I said I was. I said, “Oh, these first two years, I’m going to go to school, why don’t “ and Ivan said he was going to work full time. I went to school. I finished. After I went to school, I was going to get a full time job. Got a full time job. Like, I’ve... I guess I don’t... If Ivan’s disappointed, and he feels like I’m not good enough, or I’m not what he signed up for, like, I don’t understand because I think I have been responsible and honest, and I’ve worked really hard, and I ‘ve followed through on my promises. And I think my life path I haven’t dramatically changed and said, “Oh, I think (sigh) just kidding, I’m going to be just the opposite.” So I don’t understand. [00:35:56]

THERAPIST: Just so you know, I’m not saying that the purpose of the list is him actually articulating what he’s disappointed in. So let me (inaudible) clarify the difference. He could attack you not from feeling disappointed in you but from retaliation at feeling attacked. Do you see what I mean?

CLIENT: But why? But I don’t... So we got married, and Ivan was going to have his master’s before we got married, and he was going teach full time, he was going to have a full time job, he was going to get a PhD, he was going to teach on like a college level. He had like somewhat of a life plan mapped out. And whatever it makes me, it makes me, but the fact that he went from like, even the beginning steps of that, just completely not only was it not true, it wasn’t because he changed his mind; he failed. And he never got back up. And then years of working in food and beverage industry and he’s still like, “Oh, it didn’t get to my resume.” And I don’t think it’s fair to marry someone and like purposefully trick them about what your current trajectory is and then berate them...because they’re disappointed. I didn’t think Ivan was ready to get married because I knew he was going to work at a pet store and then construction and then a restaurant and then like... (sigh) [00:37:16]

THERAPIST: You were transparent about who you are from the very beginning so that he is knowing what he’s getting into. Nobody’s perfect, right? And you’re saying, “I was myself.” He probably knew your anxiety, he knew your bold directness, he knew you organized and focused even more when under pressure and anxiety rather than loosening up. You didn’t know what you were getting into in some parts of who he was.

CLIENT: But it’s not...I guess I’m so angry because if Ivan feels like I created a Ken doll, it’s because he created that image for me. If having his master’s before we got married and teaching or getting a PhD if that was the Ken doll, he perpetuated that. And I bought into it, and I never...(sigh) Just because I wanted that, I never sat down and said, “Boy, I wish he was thinner, I wish he was short, like I wish he like, I wish he...” (sobs) It’s like so much more than what he did in that list to me is so much more than me saying like, “Boy, I wish you would get back on a career path. It doesn’t have to be teaching, but like figure out what you’re passionate about, explore something, try something,” and I feel so...like why am I all of a sudden not good enough? I guess for him to be able to do that and then turn around and be like, “Boy, you followed through on everything and you were just not remotely good enough. And I wish you were taller, and like...” [00:38:44]

THERAPIST: I don’t think he’s feeling like you’re not good enough, Ramona. That’s what I want to keep hammering home. Do you see how it’s very different? “I actually think this person’s not good enough” vs. “I’m going to attack the person because I feel attacked.” In other words, “I’m going to attack “ It’s a defensive attack because he feels so much like a piece of shit himself.

CLIENT: But I don’t understand that. I don’t understand then it that’s how he felt, why didn’t he sit down and say, “I feel so disappointed in myself and ?”

THERAPIST: That’s what you’re up against and how... What do you do with how complicated his psyche is around this?

CLIENT: I worry that there’s not a lot of point in trying this in couple’s therapy if he’s not ready. I even worry that there’s not a lot of point in going to a session with him and Dr. Bourd if Dr. Bourd is going to essentially dance around it.

THERAPIST: (overlapping voices) my reaction.

CLIENT: Well, if he’s... I don’t appreciate it all or get it all, and I haven’t really heard what he thinks about it, or if they ever even talk about it. I would not know. [00:40:06]

THERAPIST: He brought it in. He didn’t bring the actual list, but they talked about it in detail the session last week he told me that. The list.

CLIENT: I didn’t even know that. But I don’t know if he would talk to Ivan and be as upfront as he would be when he’s talking to you. And if that’s not going to happen, I think that would be really hurtful to me if he’s going to be...I think that would be like...(sigh) I know he might need to do that as part of the process with Ivan, but if Dr. Bourd is ready to talk about it here, and Ivan’s like still back here, and he has to meet him where he is, I don’t think that’s going to feel good to hear, “Oh, I know you’re still grappling with this.”

THERAPIST: My guess is, from the way Dr. Bourd is describing the meeting and...it’s going to be somewhere in the middle. But I say that to you know to sort of think about, ok what if it’s somewhere in the middle is that worth it to you? We’ve talked a lot also about whether or not to have this meeting, period. I’m not thinking that it’s the greatest idea ever for Dr. Bourd to have the list. I think that will feel shaming to Ivan in a way that’s not productive to actually have the concrete list. [00:41:17]

CLIENT: (inaudible) Ivan asked me to send it to him.

THERAPIST: He did?

CLIENT: He did. I haven’t yet because he’s clearly open (ph), he’s away right now, and I...

THERAPIST: So I would suggest to you that if that’s what Ivan wants Ivan sent it to him. Because otherwise it’s going to set up this dynamic already that like, here you are the sort of tattling wife “I’m going to send to your individual therapist, so that he knows what you’ve done.” If Ivan would like that, Ivan should take accountability and say, “Ivan then you forward it. I’ll forward it to you, you forward it to him,” so that it’s his report of it. I think it will go much better if that comes from him. Does that make sense?

CLIENT: It does.

THERAPIST: I think Dr. Bourd will say a lot of things like, “It’s really confusing.” That I don’t think you will my guess is you will not feel like he’s just validating Ivan “Oh, poor Ivan, you feel so bad about this.” It’s not going to be an answer. But I think he will be trying to say to you part of what I’m saying is like, “What do we do with how confusing and complex this is?” What if it is that he’s...this is an expression of his self-hatred, for example? It’s a very bizarre way to express your self-hatred still. Do you know what I mean? It’s really convoluted and sort of...everything’s getting turned inside out. It would be easier if he expressed his self-hatred by sitting down and saying, “I hate myself, I hate myself, I hate myself.” You know what that’s like. That feels clear and transparent. This is not transparent, and that’s what makes it confusing.

I have a feeling that’s kind of along the lines of what you’ll hear from Dr. Bourd, so you might want to think about whether that would feel useful to hear from him or not. I think it still could be. He’s on board with it at this point because he says Ivan he doesn’t get the sense...he was worried a little bit, “Was the meeting you pushing for it? And that was kind of like Ivan had to go along with it?” And I said I hadn’t heard you pushing at all, that it was suggested to you in fact by Dr. Farrow. You and I talked and (ph) I said I thought it could be valuable if it was thought through. And he said Ivan hasn’t been feeling like you’ve been pushing for it, that Ivan has said, “We need help. Could you please help us talk about this?” So I think it could be valuable with a caveat if you go in, prepared that it’s not going to be me. In other words, he’s going to have his different mind anyway, he might think different things. He’s going to know things about Ivan that I don’t know. And he will also trying to attend to the fact that Ivan is this individual patient while you’re in the space too, so it’s going to just be a different dynamic. But...still could be useful. [00:43:47]

CLIENT: I think I’m a little scared that because he knows I assume he knows so much about what Ivan’s been experiencing he’s presumably, even if he’s not saying things to Ivan, he’s getting a lot of what’s going on behind it or the dynamics. I’m scared that he would never tell me or that he would never And I get, I mean Ivan is his patient. Not me. But I just don’t want to... (pause) I will say, like, there was one good thing that happened out of it last week, and that was, Wednesday we really argued about it. I was so worked up. I was so upset. Ivan just wouldn’t really talk to me. He said he didn’t know what to say. He’s like, “Oh, I think you need space.” And not until Friday, but Friday one of the first things he said to me when I got home was, “I really want to take accountability, and I am really sorry for the way I got defensive, and I am willing to talk about it and write about it and do what it takes. And I am so sorry that it hurt you.” And that was huge, I think, for him. And it wasn’t me saying, “I think you should apologize,” or, “I’m upset about this.” [00:44:52]

THERAPIST: That’s great. So something’s begun. That’s the other part just to kind of hold in mind about this. It was going to be really turbulent when this came into the room of your relationship like, in the room, so you would both kind of stare at it together. And there still is the chance really good things could come about that initial hurdle, getting through, you know? I think this is a good moment. Something, something Ivan’s beginning to say about it that could continue with Dr. Bourd eventually (inaudible)

CLIENT: I know we need to stop, but I just don’t like, should I... It sounds like maybe we should wait to talk about it in couple’s is that...?

THERAPIST: Um. (pause) I think it’s hard to talk about when Ivan when Ivan doesn’t have the awareness that you’re looking for. You know what I mean? [00:45:54]

CLIENT: Yeah, but that... Should we wait until he’s done more like... Dr. Bourd can get him there?

THERAPIST: Maybe so. You know? I mean I think if there’s room for you to say kind of calmly, clearly, that this feels like something that is not your fault not that there aren’t lots of other things that you’re accountable for and that it was really hard talking about it last week because you feel like it has become somehow you and your issue. And you just get the sense, maybe in order to (inaudible) to be more useful, Ivan needs to work on it a little bit more individually...before you can explore it in couple’s therapy again. And if he ever feels like he wants to talk about it, you’re all ears. Ok?

CLIENT: Thank you.

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