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THERAPIST: So this time seems like it might work better? Is that-?

CLIENT: I think maybe, since I can�t really predict the Monday mornings. It�s sporadic. So I can check and make sure that it�s okay with my boss that I just switch. And that should be okay, I would hope.

THERAPIST: And Tuesday mornings you think overall on this are better, as far what you�ve missed.

CLIENT: I hope so. I certainly hope so

THERAPIST: Just let me double-check that I It may even end up being free next week, after all. And if not, I do have a 7:10 opening Tuesday morning. So if So one or the other. 7:10 will still get you in early. Okay. So Let me know, �cause I think that�s going to be free.

CLIENT: Okay, thank you. And let me know if it is available next week, maybe, just in case that doesn�t work.

THERAPIST: And if not, 7:10 might also be doable. So should we assume one or the other of those and not the Monday, or do you want to let me know?

CLIENT: Yeah. I want to let you �cause I�ll check, but I have no way of knowing. I haven�t seen the new work schedule yet.

THERAPIST: It�s been a while, which is funny. It hasn�t been.

CLIENT: No, it hasn�t. [1:26]

THERAPIST: Somehow we added a day. How are you?

CLIENT: Okay. I guess okay. Over the weekend was a little rough. But I mean, I�m okay, really.

THERAPIST: Where are you?

CLIENT: I keep hearing myself just say I�m okay. But I am. I guess I want to say with Ivan things are maybe looking hopeful. It�s hard because sometimes I realize that now, sometimes things that are happening that are so much better that I could have expected a long time ago feel like, because they aren�t at another place, they feel like a disappointment. [2:34] But it�s funny Not funny, but it�s interesting, because a while ago, that amount of it would have been huge.

So I think in some ways that is nice, because having higher expectations and a higher likelihood that they could actually happen, that�s good. But even if it�s disappointing if they don�t. If that makes sense. It�s a different type of disappointment. I�m trying not to use the word disappointment with Ivan. But I had told him I felt let down. So I�m sure it was hard for him to hear. It�s a little tricky with the job thing. He�s not trying to apply. And it�s hard, because he isn�t compliant or following through as much or is aggressive or ambitious or however you want to put it. But that�s the other He�s a lot more than he was before, so it�s -

THERAPIST: That�s what I keep wondering is what Is that what you�re referring to that makes you lead off saying that things are feeling a little more hopeful? [3:43]

CLIENT: Yeah, I think so. But it�s still hard, because I realize it�s not It still would be quite realistic to say, he�s quite old enough. He�s quite He�s had plenty of time to I don�t know, not relax. I don�t know what the word is, but his job at Subway hasn�t been, you know, like, he�s not working there all the time and stressed. And you know, he can�t possibly apply to jobs. So he�s had plenty of time to I think it�s been over a year. So this past week I guess he applied to eight or nine I think in the end? Maybe, yeah. Eight or nine. So that was good. I mean, the goal was 12. But that�s still huge for him. And he had only applied to one before last week, to my knowledge. So he actually got serious about it this week. [4:41]

THERAPIST: That�s a real change.

CLIENT: It is. It is. And I feel bad, in a way, because for example, we had a little deal. He was going to apply to 12 jobs, and then, Sunday afternoon we were going to go to the beach and reward him and just have a goal kind of to look forward to. �Cause I think for him, it�s not enough to feel really satisfied. He also So it was disappointing because, you know, he didn�t make it there. But it still, you know, him applying to eight or nine jobs in a week for him is huge. So I guess I feel a little conflicted. [5:28] Friday night I got home, and he�s like oh, I planned we were going to go out to dinner. We never like, I can�t even remember that last time we went out to dinner together. And he was like yeah, but then I looked and they took out more in my loans than they were supposed to. Which is true, that actually happened. They took out a lot more this month. There was a clerical error which isn�t his fault. No, I mean, it�s happened before.

But I mean, I heard him on the phone with them and they had a record that he had called earlier in the day. So he really was spending time trying to fix that. But it was just That, you know, generally wasn�t his fault. But then he�s like, so, that pretty much took the rest of, you know, what was in my account. And he�s like, so And I found out he hadn�t been checking on his loans, because I found out, because I went to the store and I was going to pick up flowers for you. And I was like, oh, that�s nice. But I didn�t because my account So there again, you know, it�s not it�s so much better like, the fact that he was thinking about getting flowers or thinking, we could go to dinner. We could have a real date. [6:39] It�s huge, but then, I also felt a little guilty, but I also felt a little I felt let down, you know. And it makes it hard then, I think. And it makes it more hard for me to say, that would be so nice. Because, you know. And then, we talked a little bit about Ivan had said, towards the end of June I guess, like, after our anniversary this year, maybe we could go away just one night. We�ve never gone on vacation another than our honeymoon. That would be so nice. Nothing extravagant, but, you know, like somewhere. So many beaches nearby. Like three nights in a row this past week he�s like, I�m going to book it tonight. I�m going to get it done. And we�ve been talking about it for a few weeks, off and on and more or less, I�ve been hinting. And then, he�s like, now I really can�t.

And I was like, yeah, I know, but I have this feeling you didn�t plan anything. You didn�t He made it sound all along like, I have a place picked, I have the whole thing planned out. All I have to do is book it. And he�s like, that�s true, I didn�t. He was One of those nights he was just going to force himself to find a place. [7:48] I think, you know, really well-intentioned. And I think he probably did feel overwhelmed or a little bit like I mean, I know this is like a coping mechanism. It�s not just me, or not to take it personally. But on the other hand, he did come clean pretty quickly and say, you�re right. I didn�t. Which is actually very important. So it�s hard, you know. �Cause I feel let down here and there. And I feel like It�s weird, but tone of the thoughts that came across my mind over the weekend was, I just wanted attention. Or, I just wanted affection. I just wanted I really wanted that, because. Anyway.

THERAPIST: It�s so tricky in many ways. It�s a fine line you�re having to walk together in order to work on this in your relationship and particularly for him to work on this part of himself in the relationship, in that you are going to be disappointed when he tells you the things that he really wants to hide from you. [9:02]

CLIENT: Right. And I don�t want him to hide them.

THERAPIST: You don�t want him to hide them. And that�s what I think you�re trying sort of The more you can say in yourself and to him again, out loud, both things. This is so much preferable to my not knowing the real truth. I�m less so much less disappointed than having you lie to me. And, I do still feel some disappointment.

CLIENT: That�s the part I think is hard for him to hear. I think it�s hard for him to hear it no matter how valid or how gentle. It�s really hard for him to hear. Because I think in some ways, he hears that within himself so much. And I can imagine it would be, you know, if you were trying to do something really nice. If I was trying to do something really, really nice for him and I just wasn�t getting it together for whatever reason and then he said, oh, I feel let down that you didn�t. [10:02] That would feel I�m sure that would be sad.

THERAPIST: It is important, though, that you both find a way for your feelings to get to exist. In other words, if you end up feeling like, I have to tip-toe around this so much, because he�s feeling so much that I should not say anything about it or can�t have my experience. That�s as much of a problem as him lying. Do you know what I mean? That�s its own really symptomatic thing that�s happening. It may be that what you have to do recognize that whenever you are going to say let down or disappointed or whatever it is that it�s you don�t have to be that loud about it and he will get it. [11:05] Do you know what I mean? Or, that it�s held in a kind of with love as it gets spoken, instead of the chastising side of disappointed, which I think you�ve been doing. I mean it�s so different the way you talk about it, even in here, than where it used to be. Where, that side I think would feel so scathing to him that it would pull him back into line because it was so painful to get it wrong. I think this side of you that�s been increasingly having a feeling and sharing it, but also understanding the context not being as personal as you once might have thought it was. And increasingly, try to help him understand. He just has work more to do to figure out what�s happening that stops him from going and looking up where to go stay in a hotel. You know what I mean? [12:06] Like that what his internal experience is isn�t at least to me, is not clear. Like, what where it breaks down and why.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean he�s talked I think he�s used This weekend he used the word, disconnect. He realizes that what he wants and what he does, they don�t match up. He desperately wants a new job. It�s such a struggle to get him to sometimes He really wants us to do something nice together. But it�s so hard. And he has expressed I mean, he�s anxious. He�s ashamed. He�s overwhelmed. He copes with avoiding. I imagine it�s pretty much the same. He�s told me that Dr. Bourd describes it as a which is a little weird to hear, but a self-defeating perfectionism. Like, it�s never going to be good enough, so I don�t do it at all. Which is so had to work with, because it�s like, I can do so much and I can only encourage so much. And at a certain point, it doesn�t feel reasonable. I�ve felt that before.

There are things I know for a fact I�ve put off, because then like, oh, I feel so bad I have put it off. [13:24] Not crucial things. But I know what that can feel like. But I also I guess I don�t understand why it doesn�t reach a point pretty quickly where Ivan is like, but I�m going to, you know, push through it. And I�ve even said to him sometimes, don�t you feel relief or feel so much better when I put off something, even if it�s like, insignificant and I finally check if off my list. I feel so much better. And half the time I think, it wasn�t that bad. I could have felt this a while ago. And Ivan�s like, no, I don�t feel that. I just feel more I just feel terrible I didn�t do it sooner. It�s hard. And it�s hard, too, because sometimes I feel he he�s come really far in this department, but sometimes it�s like, he won�t help himself. And it�s hard to be sympathetic, you know, if I keep hearing him say, I don�t want to work at Subway. I just wish I had something else. I�m not qualified for anything. I�m not doing anyYou know, it�s hard to continually be sympathetic.

Because then, you know, so apply to a job. It�s really hard. [14:27] But I actually felt that we had a really good or productive couples session last week where Dr. Farrow talked about times to just we had an exercise in her in the session. But we�ve also tried to do it somewhat at home where Ivan just talks about how he�s feeling about whatever. And I just listen, and that�s kind of the job of it. I don�t problem solve. I don�t pour out sympathy. I don�t So she said, that can be really helpful if we each have times where we can just do that. And then, she said there can also be times when it�s time to do something about it, and we can talk about that, too, which is nice.

THERAPIST: The space to have him have his experience more, I think is really a very useful sentiment. Because he�s so used to I think you�re both so used to clicking into what do you do about it. And then, he clicks into shame that he hasn�t done it sooner. [15:32] That just being able to get to know what his different feelings are about all this, without there being any response about what to go do differently from either one of you, including him. I mean a part of what you�re doing by just listening is teaching him how just to listen to his own inner experience and get to know it better.

CLIENT: And I told him it�s incredibly helpful for me, because it�s such a different experience. I have tried to tell him if I hear him sit down and say, I feel anxious, I feel overwhelmed about this job thing. I just really need something. I said, that�s such a different experience from me having all the anxiety and all the worrying and all the like Oh, my gosh, why don�t you apply to Or, it�s just such a huge, huge difference. Because I think there, there is definitely a disconnect where he says he feels all those things, but he rarely will talk about them. And I�ve tried to encourage that if he can talk about that more, it would actually help us both. [16:33] �Cause then, I don�t feel alone. I don�t feel like it�s all on me. I don�t feel -

THERAPIST: And you don�t feel like then he�s not in realty. So the urgency (inaudible at 16:46) understand this is a problem. If you hear he gets it�s a problem. It�s funny, because the problem doesn�t go away. But when you know that he understands it -

CLIENT: It�s huge.

THERAPIST: Then, you get to relax a little bit. Like okay, he gets it. He feels it, too. You�re not left holding the ball for all of the anxiety. No, that�s great.

CLIENT: So I think that�s good and I hope we keep doing that (inaudible at 17:13) This weekend was I said it was a little rough, because this weekend I found myself turning back inwards, feeling disappointed in Ivan or feeling less important and feeling really horrible about myself and having some not so great thoughts. So that was not good.

THERAPIST: Do you have a sense, Ramona of what was there Did this grow out of a particular context? Was it him not -?

CLIENT: It was a series of small disappointments. And then, oh, I lied about this. And I happened to talk to my mom and she had finally found out about Emma�s program. And I was like, you know, that was hard for her and I wish it wasn�t so hard for her to tell you -

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