TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Good morning.

CLIENT: Hi. This is my pillow.

THERAPIST: I'm (inaudible). Let me see.

CLIENT: It's new.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: It was fun picking it out. Can I use this?

THERAPIST: Yeah, sure. Where did you find it?

CLIENT: Oh, at the old over-priced, fair trade (inaudible). Figured I'd get a little print out of the (inaudible) for it for the pillowcase. (pause) I can't eat this right now.

THERAPIST: I know should know later today about Wednesday morning at 8:30 instead of 9:15.

CLIENT: Ok.

THERAPIST: And we're good on Thursday?

CLIENT: We're good on Thursday. (pause) Could you have it if you poke a banana in the middle and put them into three sections?

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: That'd be cool.

THERAPIST: Cool benefit.

CLIENT: Uh-huh. So just like deciding to continue seeing you straight up a lot, going from two to three times a week straight up a lot, between me and Jeremy. And I think it was very useful, but I think it's very painful, also. And it feels like it's distracting from the work to be done here, but maybe not. (pause)

THERAPIST: How is it painful?

CLIENT: Well, it's painful for Jeremy because we had made this decision at the end of the year to switch to his insurance with the knowledge that you weren't going to be taking the insurance and that I was going to not see anyone or see someone out of network. And then his from his perspective, I've been this little girl who just like wants more and more ice cream, is the way he explained it.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And this is a trait about me that really bothers him. Maybe at times it's endearing, but it really bothers him.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: So I (inaudible) on that decision (pause) and then I thought and then I wanted to go to two times a week. And then it took him a while to I mean, it took a lot of talking and I think it took a lot of compassion on his part and just like letting it go to to get over it.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And then I wanted to go to three times a week and I think he feels like it's a luxury.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: He doesn't know that I have that I'm making these decisions like in a clear-minded way. I don't know that I'm making these decisions in a clear-minded way. And I think he I think he is just bothered by how how I just want it, and so that's enough for me to get it.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I'm bothered because it doesn't fear feel clear-minded at all. Like I would come in seven days a week, if I could. And it was really nice to hear from Jeremy that that he doesn't think I'm a nut and this makes a lot of sense to him that I would just that I could talk all day to you and that it would be that it would be ok with me.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And that there isn't like an out he's not seeing an element of restraint. And for me (coughs) I think that the structure of the therapeutic relationship is already enough restraint.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But that's really hard to explain. (pause) Like no matter how many times I come in for how long, it's going to be enough restraint.

THERAPIST: Right. You mean like in terms of things like how responsive I am or the way we talk about things?

CLIENT: I don't know. I mean just that you're not going to be my pal -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. Yeah.

CLIENT: in the way that maybe I want you to be.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. In what ways do you want me to be (inaudible)?

CLIENT: I think it's fine the way it is.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh. You don't feel a sense of that kind of restraint now?

CLIENT: I do. I guess I'm ok with it.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Or I'm getting used to it. I think I can fulfill my desire or need to be to strive in this relationship and to make it really good for you by just like being an engaged patient.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And be willing to explore and show up, and when I'm not willing to explore, be honest about that. I don't know. I'm sort of trying to think (pause) about ways to feel privileged with the structure.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Because it's kind of a privileged view. Maybe other people are in your life who get to hear about your ups and downs and reactions and feelings, and get to eat lunch with you, know a lot more and have access to a part that I'll never have access to. But I think I have access to a part that other people that those people will never have access to.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And maybe that's just delusional, but it's comforting (laughs). Plus, this is I don't know. This is your life's work so far, and I'm part of it, and that's pretty cool. So the restraint is there, but I'm exploring ways to think of it as not a restraint. Or as whatever freeing in other ways.

THERAPIST: I guess my impression is that, though it sounds like it's been helpful to explore that, the restraint is actually very difficult in some ways.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: Maybe very painful would be more accurate.

CLIENT: Yes, it's very painful.

THERAPIST: Maybe you really want to know what I'm like to eat lunch with, or what my reactions or thoughts about you or probably lots of other things are like, and it's very hard not to know that. And even if that doesn't mean, you know, you don't have a close view of me in other ways -

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: but it is very painful and probably frustrating, and (pause)

CLIENT: Yeah, it's horrible.

THERAPIST: Yeah, (inaudible) you felt that way.

CLIENT: Uh-huh. (pause) After lots of crying and arguing, and like multiple days, among other things, Jeremy asked how he could make my time between sessions less painful. And that was amazing. And I had an answer; I asked him to sit with me every day for just a few minutes and ask me about how I was feeling. So we've been doing that, and it's really great.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I (inaudible) that has it been helpful and it sounds like (inaudible) it's really great that he asked.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's really great that he asked. I think he doesn't quite get I think I really feel like he's unavailable, too.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And that became clear to me after telling you that I think you're a little bit unavailable.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: So to have him ask that, even if it came out of this shit hitting the fan thing, it was so it really put me at ease.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: I mean, I was kind of I was kind of at ease during the whole thing because, again, it's like my resolve is so strong, which is why I think I'm not really being clear-headed. Like I will not let it go, so that's a really easy argument for someone who will not let it go.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: It's much harder for Jeremy.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But I think it's a shared goal of ours to sort of find ways to make it less painful between sessions, and I think it's probably a goal of ours to make it to find ways in which Jeremy's role and your role overlap, and to try to strengthen Jeremy's part of that.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: Which is like so great.

THERAPIST: Yep.

CLIENT: And I I yeah, it's great.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I imagine that's making things better between you for you in any case.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's it's a really nice well, I'd say consequence, but maybe it's the whole point. Or maybe it's part of the point.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: At least for Jeremy, it definitely woke him up a little bit.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Not to say that he wasn't aware that he was sleeping before, but I think -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: there are aspects of his brain and personality that just it makes it really hard for him to like remember -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: to ask.

THERAPIST: (inaudible) you've been feeling sad and lonely and kind of heart-broken between sessions.

CLIENT: Uh-huh. I've also been at feeling afraid to leave. I've been feeling a lot of fear about that.

THERAPIST: You mean like when I get to the end of -

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: a session? Is it clear what you're afraid of?

CLIENT: I'm afraid of feeling the way I felt last time. And feeling even more of it because it's become more penetrating -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: our time together. Another parts part of me tells myself, ‘Well, actually, the whole point of coming back is to hopefully make the next time different, maybe not easier.'

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But maybe to encourage or highlight some change that might make it easier.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But I don't know. What do you think?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think that's an important part of it. I guess I think about it in terms of helping to clarify what's at stake.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: And saying good-bye. And (pause) look at how some of the the areas (inaudible) bad that can be.

CLIENT: Uh-huh.

THERAPIST: And I mean I guess in some way, why is obvious, and in some ways, it probably isn't.

CLIENT: (pause) I feel like my there's like so much external stuff getting in the way of really being here, and like this is getting in the way of all the external stuff. (pause) I want everybody to be in harmony.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: (pause) Or like I want to focus on one I feel pulled in so many directions and I want to focus on one of them.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And have everybody all the other parts be not contributing -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: too much pain or whatever. (pause) Pain or like questions. (pause) I also find myself like defending you and defending us and this. (pause) And I thought like, ‘This better fucking be worth it.' But I also at times think or know that it is. But I'm not quite sure why. (pause) Or I guess I know why, I just don't know how much I like it.

THERAPIST: What did you have mind?

CLIENT: Well, uh I've learned so much about so many things (pause) like intellectually and emotionally. I've had the chance to develop a very strong attachment to you and that's worthwhile, like, on its own. (pause) I've thought a lot about attachment in general and the suffering it brings, and I don't know, this has sort of opened up my my path, I think. (pause) Kind of like this is this our time together could be summarized or like could be held within the first and second noble truths. I've been thinking a lot about them. And I'm not sure that that would have been the way I would have gone or approached things if I weren't here. (pause) Also, it seems like it's gotten Jeremy and me to face some things that we wouldn't have faced in the same way, which is positive (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: (pause) It's very hard for me not to be positive.

THERAPIST: What are negative (inaudible) thoughts and feelings on (inaudible)?

CLIENT: Well, it's so fucking painful and frustrating and it doesn't make any sense, and it makes me feel embarrassed.

THERAPIST: What do you have to be embarrassed about?

CLIENT: (pause) What feels like an irrational dependency.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: And also like (pause) I don't know. We people can define their own people can have their own definitions of luxury. I don't think it's very useful, whatever the definition is. But I don't know, it sort of makes me feel a little bit like that girl who wants more ice cream.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And like to my parents, I don't feel embarrassed at all, because that's who I am and they they really know that. My mom, by the way, is like totally thrilled with you -

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: and feels very lucky and I think just sort of has the perspective of, ‘Ok, ok, it's fine.' It's really like when I when I was sort of feeling really conflicted over having decided to switch to three times a week, there was so little conflict for her. Like her only conflict was, ‘How can I make it easier for you and Jeremy?' Like she really wants to pay.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And we're not letting them pay.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And I was considering like not really telling Jeremy right away, but of course, I I don't know. One of the good things about both of us is that that doesn't really work.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: So I told him and then it was crying, messy, and blah, blah, blah. But I do feel embarrassed around Jeremy's family I think just because they don't I feel like they don't really know me. I mean, I think they know me very well, but they raised their children a little bit differently. And especially Jeremy has this like punishment like veil over his life, and I think that is something he is beginning to understand or realize more and more, is like restraint is good. Like being a little bit I don't know. Like picking a thing that's like a little bit less than ideal is good.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And that's like really stupid. To me it doesn't make any sense.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: So I guess I feel embarrassed and I feel embarrassed around Jeremy. Also it sort of like highlights his defects a little bit or our defects, and that's hard. Defect isn't the right word. (pause) It makes it screamingly apparent where we could make life easier for each other.

THERAPIST: Which is, I guess, just the sort of two edges that you're talking about, in a way?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you both have a lot of both (inaudible), you know, very helpful and hopeful, in a way, and really awful and painful in another.

CLIENT: Uh-huh. (pause) I'm getting these rave reviews on my talks.

THERAPIST: Congratulations.

CLIENT: Thanks.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: The director of my program wants me to apply for this thing, which, it selects eight graduate students to do like this TED Talk thing, where you submit a video to apply a a little bit of your work or your message.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: And then you get selected to like shape and craft that message and create another video, and then you give a talk at this symposium thing.

THERAPIST: That sounds exciting.

CLIENT: It's exciting. It doesn't I don't think I'm going to do it. It feels like a big distraction. It's like it feels like one of those things that administrators make up and like they get people to sit on committees and then they can throw this event that's mostly like administratively driven. And they ask more committee like people to come and like instead of working on something to talk about, I'd spend a whole bunch of time working on how to say it.

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: But it's really nice because Kelly's super proud and the director of my program, who has been, at times, awful, is really proud, too. So that's pretty great. (pause) I really feel in my element.

THERAPIST: Hmm. That's good.

CLIENT: During the whole arc. Like crafting the talk, preparing for it -

THERAPIST: Uh-huh.

CLIENT: executing it, taking questions.

THERAPIST: That's terrific.

CLIENT: And it's something scientists are usually bad at, so I guess it's -

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: it's surprising to people.

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