TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

(PAUSE) [00:01:00]

THERAPIST: Hi. come on in.

CLIENT: Sorry I'm late. (LAUGHTER) (SIGH) (inaudible at 00:01:39) Trying to finish too many things before I leave. So... (SIGH) I looked at like five apartments yesterday with my mom and it's the same thing, you know, the place you want, they don't want you and the places you don't want... It's just like... (LAUGHTER) (SIGH) [00:02:09]

Yesterday, this funny thing happened where this agent just called me out of the blue and was like, "So, I have a place for you?" Where is it at? On the same street as Victor (ph). (LAUGHTER) Not not just the same street but the house exactly opposite his building. It's so weird. I should have just said no. But I said, "Okay. We'll look at it." And just like turning on his street was... It was like, yeah, I'm not ready to face him and, you know... I've been telling myself that he's, he doesn't live here in the last several months, like that last whole year didn't happen. [00:03:03]

He's still in Virginia and (LAUGHTER) he's still... It makes it easier, I guess, to deal with stuff. But... (PAUSE) And I think I'm not going to be able to find a place and I'm just going to come back and do it. It's just like... This is going to be a big step for me to not, you know, worry or try not to worry and just leave it and be a little irresponsible and... So I think my mom will be a little worried but it'll just, it'll free up some of my headspace for other things. But... Even yesterday, like she liked this place a lot, the one on Victor's street. [00:03:59]

It was a two bedroom place. She was like, "So, have you signed the lease?" I was like, "No." She was like, "You're (inaudible at 00:04:05) about it, right?" (LAUGHTER) And then I immediately said, "No. I'm going forward with living separately, going forward with getting my own place." And I don't know. I feel like (SIGH) maybe that was a cruel thing to do but it makes you... Maybe that's what Victor was talking about. Like maybe when you do the cruel thing, it makes you strong in other people's eyes and they learn from it and they maybe feel like, "Oh, I could be similarly strong. You know, I don't have to..." Like when you're not soft, the other person maybe learns from it and becomes a little more independent or self reliant when they know that, "No, you cannot lean on my shoulder." [00:05:03]

I mean, that's Victor's approach and I wonder if I can learn from it or adapt it (LAUGHTER) adopt it. But we'll see how it goes. I mean... (PAUSE) But, I mean, it's like I don't know what exactly I'm fighting against. It's like... (SIGH) So people tell me it's actually normal in other cultures... Like if I were in Nepal, it would be actually normal to stay with my mom for as long as, until I get married. So... And I have a friend here actually. We met in high school and she... Like her dad passed away while I knew her and I think even now... [00:06:07]

I mean, she's my age, exactly my age and she's living with her mom in San Diego. So... (SIGH) I mean, that's unusual in America I know. But, I mean, how is she dealing with it? Is she being told by boyfriends and potential boyfriends, "That's not normal. You know? You should move out or, you know, be independent." (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: It's not clear if you live with your mother or she lives with you.

CLIENT: Is that... So like that needs to be clear or like...

THERAPIST: I wasn't suggesting that needs to be clear. I'm just saying it's... It's not.

CLIENT: Yeah. But, I mean, wouldn't it be... Even for my friend, wouldn't it be unclear because I'm sure she must make more money than her mom. I'm not sure actually. [00:07:01]

But what if that is the case? Then she's like me where maybe her mom is living with her. But I'm not sure if that's the case because her parents were quite different and they had good jobs and I'm sure that her mom actually owns the house or something like that. So maybe she's living with her mom then. (LAUGHTER) It's just so ridiculous. It's just like this whole housing thing just makes me feel very inadequate like to the agents, trying to explain, "Why are you cosigning," and things. "You don't need to cosign for her." You know? (LAUGHTER) But then it's like, yeah, you have no idea. (LAUGHTER) I do because that's for her, like, peace of my and my peace of mind and also because if I put down her income you really will not give her a place. You know? [00:07:59]

So does that mean that I always have to live with her? You know? So... It makes me feel very, very (inaudible at 00:08:11) because people my age and younger and just like pretty much everyone else I feel like is so free and I'm so tied down. I feel like sometimes I think I don't even want to come back when I go to Nepal just because I'm doing my research, I want to do my work and there, living would be so much cheaper than, you know, living in Providence. (LAUGHTER) I do not have to have a full time job. I could devote like a good chunk of my next year to my work. I could do that. But why can I not do that? Because I need to pay my mother's rent. (LAUGHTER) [00:09:03]

You know? So... And she will not live in Nepal. She's like, "I don't like to live... I don't like that country anymore." Just like I feel like it's like a (inaudible at 00:09:17) If I think about it too long, that's what I feel like. So... But Chris (ph) is like, "Don't think like that. Just..." You know, we have our constraints and we just work around them. So... You know? I don't know. I don't know how to feel liberated in the tiny little space that's given to me (inaudible at 00:09:45)

THERAPIST: It feels like it's imposed from the outside?

CLIENT: (inaudible at 00:09:51) So if I impose it on myself I wouldn't feel so bad you're saying?

THERAPIST: (LAUGHTER)

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) [00:09:59]

THERAPIST: Impose is a loaded word. Right?

CLIENT: Yeah. I did it, as they say. You know, like I was talking to this guy last night and he was like, you know, much younger than me and his parents live in Nepal. He's thinking of moving back and he was just like, "You know, it's my decision to take. If something goes wrong, then it was mine and, you know, I'll take responsibility for it." But this is not... You're right. This is not my decision. You know? It's because my dad was an absolute abusive shit that, you know, we are in this situation, I feel. Like if he had been half way decent, we would have had a lot more resources and pretty much that I feel is the cause because like everyone else's parents are there. You know, like... Yeah. Their mothers are being taken care of by their fathers. (LAUGHTER) [00:10:57]

That really is it. So... (SIGH) I can't really boast that I come from a broken family or like my mom is independent. I mean, it's funny. Like circumstance should make you stronger. Like her circumstances should have made her stronger that, you know, that she was the one earning and supporting me and taking care of me. But I think it didn't make her as strong as she could have been, I think because like all these people whose parents are, you know, have good marriages or at least not failed marriages, their moms are probably very weak. They cannot survive like a week without their husbands. But I feel like, you know, that's not the case with my mom. But that's not really... That doesn't make her strong. You know? [00:12:01]

So... I don't know. Maybe if I think about it differently like it's not my dad's fault or... (LAUGHTER) I think in those terms a lot. That's not healthy. It gets (inaudible at 00:12:31) (PAUSE) Is there any other way to think about it? (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Do you think you don't deserve to have choices?

CLIENT: I really don't think I don't deserve them. Like what kinds of choices?

THERAPIST: Your choice to not live with your mother, your choice not to have the kind of obligation you feel toward her. [00:13:03]

CLIENT: Yeah. I feel like it's just there. It's a constraint and I just have to, you know, like with it like a handicap. That's a very bad word. But...

THERAPIST: I mean, certainly in her eyes and I imagine from your culture when, you know, thirty years ago, she very much felt mired down by obligation that her dreams were shattered because of the obligation she had to follow...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...you know, her parents' dictates in terms of marriage. And she vocalizes that that, you know, her life was so mired, if not ruined by obligation. And it seems that in some ways you're carrying on that legacy. [00:14:01]

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, I don't... I feel like the culture has changed in the sense that... I mean, marriage is still considered very important but like girls in middle class families are definitely encouraged to pursue education a lot more. It's really a double bin that we have. (LAUGHTER) you know, like scholars have written about this and stuff. But, you know, it the bind of (inaudible at 00:14:41) tradition and modern (inaudible). you know, like, on the one hand, we have to go traditional, we have to get married and stuff. But we also have to be modern and we have to, you know, get a PhD or a master's and be independent as well. So...

(PAUSE) [00:15:00]

So I guess, our... I mean, yeah, we have that but... (PAUSE) I don't know how well some us do with that behind... (PAUSE) I feel like I have to do both. Like I have to get married and have children and also I have to make some, a somewhat successful career. And I really feel like I'm failing in every single regard. (LAUGHTER) Yeah, career wise, I just feel absolutely... I don't want to think about it because... (PAUSE) But it is what it is.

(PAUSE) [00:16:00]

CLIENT: Like people my age with my kind of educational background are supposed to make, you know, like a hundred thousand dollars (LAUGHTER) over a hundred thousand dollars. I don't know. If I made that kind of money, I would get an apartment in a heartbeat. (LAUGHTER) So... But... (PAUSE) I don't know if I deserve, if I feel like I don't deserve choices. (PAUSE) I thought I just, it would be possible to live kind of narrowly, you know, like in a little box not impose too much of myself and my life, I guess, on the outside world. [00:17:05]

Just sort of in a little tiny box with my mom and just not let people see me or scrutinize me too closely and just make whatever out of our little capabilities and that's it. But the problem is I don't want to like in a box. (LAUGHTER) You know, I want other people to like me and love me and when they do, when I do let them in, they're like, "It's too tiny, this box. You know, you can't get out. You've got to let go of your mother. You've got to complete transform yourself (LAUGHTER) or I'm kicking you out." So... I don't know.

(PAUSE) [00:18:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know if I want to be in a tiny box or out in the world just like bumping up against people and (SIGH) you know, having good healthy interactions. (PAUSE) It's funny... (LAUGHTER) The last time Victor and I were together, he was showing me Grey Gardens, the movie. I don't know if you've seen it. [00:19:07]

It's about, I think it's the cousin, Jackie ONassis' cousin and her mom. These two women, they lived in this old home and, you know, the mother daughter pair that lived together all their lives. And they hadn't stepped out of the house in like forty year or something crazy and the house was absolutely falling apart and was filthy. And there was this dictate from the city to like tear it down because there's like this big health hazard. (LAUGHTER) You know, there's like forty cats and whatnot. But, you know, it's just the dynamic between the women was so interesting because they each blame the other for ruining their life. [00:20:01]

The daughter definitely does. "You know, I had to come back for my mother, you know, I couldn't do... I couldn't get married. I couldn't have a career. You know, look at me. I'm so beautiful. I couldn't been an actress," and all that. The mother also is like... But then when they're not in front of each other, they say nice things about each other. So it's just like this symbiotic and parasitic relationship that they have and it's just like, "What are you trying to tell me? Is this me and my mom in ten years?" (LAUGHTER) You know? So... I mean, if it, if I can create great art out of that, then I would do it. (LAUGHTER) But... (PAUSE) But that's the point. The sisters weren't... They weren't the ones who created art. [00:21:05]

They were the subject of work of art. So it's very different being a subject than being the artist. I think... (LAUGHTER) I'm both the subject and the artist or trying to be the artist. But that's hard. Like all the writers say, "You need like objective distance from your subject," and I guess that's kind of what I don't have right now. How do you like give yourself the choice that... How do you tell yourself, "I have choices. I'm not bound by this one thing." [00:21:57]

THERAPIST: Well, I would phrase the question a little bit differently but with the same aim. What's preventing you from feeling you have choices?

CLIENT: Yeah. (PAUSE) Preventing me... Hmm... (PAUSE) Yeah, I mean, that's true. It's just my fear, I guess, that she won't be able to take care of herself. I'm afraid. I don't know of what. Am I afraid of the guilt or am I afraid of something that actually might happen? I don't know. I don't know what I'm afraid of. It's funny. Like that's exactly kind of what Victor was saying, not really saying, but really just his being and actions were posing to me that, "You know, I'm going to walk away and we're not going to see each other." [00:23:09]

That's what he was doing and saying but it produced in me such a horrible visceral reaction of just like absolute, I don't know, this fear of what's going to happen if I don't see him you know, like if he goes away. It's like I would die or something. (LAUGHTER) But then I'm like, "What am I afraid of? Afraid of missing him? Afraid of feeling lonely? Afraid of what? Crying too much?" I've done all those things. (LAUGHTER) And they're not as bad as I, you know, expected them to be. So what am I afraid of with not helping my mom. [00:24:03]

You know, her actually getting into trouble or me feeling guilty? I don't know. (PAUSE) Seeing her sad or disappointing her? I don't know. (SIGH) Letting her down? I don't know. (PAUSE) Maybe I derive a sense of pleasure (LAUGHTER) from this too. I mean, there's that that I take pride in having this encumbrance and having this kind of sad story that makes me feel superior perhaps. [00:24:59]

It does. Like other people my age, I'm like, "Yeah, what do you know about responsibility?" (LAUGHTER) You know? Like let me tell you what I have going on. You know? Yeah, I do derive a sense of pleasure when people are like, "Oh, wow. So the reason why you aren't very successful right now is you, you know, you're taking care of your mom and you're supporting your boyfriend so that obviously... Yeah, I can see that." So that if one of my colleagues said that and I felt proud of such... I mean, it is, you know, gratifying. (LAUGHTER) But, I mean, I guess I'm tired now of making excuses for not working hard. You know, like I'm tired of saying, "Well, the reason why I'm not there where I want to be is because of all these constraints." So I want to stop making that excuse. [00:26:07]

I want to like take the responsibility for my own lack of strength to do stuff about these things. So the reason why that I'm sticking to my plan of moving away and finding a place... you know, I'm not going to be there for my mom as much and it really is, it really is like very shameful. I remember this one night in... I was in... I just finished my first year of college and it was the summer and one of my friends had given me her room to live in off campus. [00:27:11]

It was a beautiful place and everything. And I'm living there and this was the first beautiful room I had in my life. This woman really kept her house very beautifully. so I'm living there and then like in a couple of weeks, my mom arrives, my mom and dad. And my mom arrives with like a couple suitcases and she's like, "Well, yeah, I've come to stay here because your dad is having an affair and it's going really, really badly and I just cannot do that anymore. So here I am." (LAUGHTER) And, you know, I'm whatever, nineteen and whatever. And my mom's just, yeah, come with her suitcases. So my boyfriend and I are like, "What do we do?" You know, like, first of all, I had to tell the woman whose house it was and she was away in Alabama and she was yelling at me over e-mail. "How could you do this? You know, it's my house and how could you disrespect..." [00:28:17]

And then she calmed down. But then I had to find my mom and job and a place and, you know, y boyfriend helped me with that. But this one night I was looking at her resume and it was so badly written. But it was written with such heart. You know? And there was this one sentence she tried to write with really bad spelling and really weird formatting. (LAUGHTER) Like, "Highly talented woman seeks to, seeks a job where she can help others," or something like that. [00:28:59]

That just really broke my heart because I felt like, you know, she is very talented. She does have so much to give. It's just unfortunate that she's been taken advantage of by my father and it's unfortunate that if anyone looks at this piece of paper, they're not going to hire her because it looks horrible the way that she's written in. It does not look professional. you know, the spaces are not correct. The spelling is incorrect. (LAUGHTER) And I was trying to edit it and I just felt really, really like just jumping out the window. You know? Like just really contemplating just ending it all that night just because... I don't know. I just got so emotional by that whole scenario. I had never had... yeah. I had never had that kind of shock delivered to me, you know, like my mom just coming over and being like, "Here. Help me out." (LAUGHTER) [00:30:05]

THERAPIST: Her helplessness? Is that what got to you?

CLIENT: Yeah. Just that she was... Yeah. (SIGH) That was just really, really scary... Yeah. I mean, bleak. I don't know why it's so bleak because there's bleaker things, you know, like literature and the world. But... Just my own mother's helplessness, I guess.

THERAPIST: Well, it's like feeling there's no pillar for you.

CLIENT: Why do I need a pillar? (LAUGHTER) Why I can't I be a pillar? (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Yeah. I think everybody needs a pillar and it's true that hopefully, at some point, you become your own pillar. But usually you need someone else to serve that purpose for you to be able to create that for yourself. [00:31:09]

CLIENT: You mean I need that or one does?

THERAPIST: In general, I believe, yes.

CLIENT: Well, Victor doesn't have a pillar. (LAUGHTER) He's his one pillar. He's like ten pillars. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: How do you know he never had a pillar?

CLIENT: I assume that just because of his life. He... His parents sent him off to like a boarding school. He's an only child and yet they sent him off. So it seems that he's been independent from a very young age. His parents are really old. They're in their seventies I think and, yeah, he sends them money and takes care of them. So I feel like he's exceptionally strong or he thinks he is exceptionally strong. I don't know. (LAUGHTER) [00:32:05]

But, yeah, regardless of him, I mean, why can't I be my own pillar? I mean... (PAUSE) I mean, I don't care what I do. Like I've done some things that should really embarrass me such as going over to Victor's place unannounced and then being kicked out. But like my mother's helplessness is the thing that is like the sorest spot, you know, like the weakest link, like the one thing that I don't want people to see. That's the one thing that I just absolutely want to hide. You know? [00:33:01]

I mean, maybe that's normal. Like all of us get embarrassed by our parents. Right? Maybe not all of us. But I think that is like the teenage years. That is the teenage sentiment that you're embarrassed of your parents and you don't want to go anywhere with them and be seen with them. But I feel like that's still the case with me and I'm like thirty. So... (LAUGHTER) That is not good. (PAUSE) I guess I'm not proud of her. That's horrible. (LAUGHTER)

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: Why is that horrible? Shouldn't we be proud of the people we love? Shouldn't you want to like parade them around? Not parade them around. But, you know, like... [00:34:09]

THERAPIST: Does your mother evoke admiration from other people?

CLIENT: (SIGH) In some people. I don't know admiration...

THERAPIST: Well, sort of pride. The idea of being proud is that people admire.

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't think I admire, I inspire admiration. (LAUGHTER) Maybe in some fleeting instance if they don't know the whole story. Like if they say, "Oh, you're taking care of your mom. How cool is that?" (LAUGHTER) But... Yeah. I don't know if she inspires admiration. Like a big chunk is that... What I do know is that her family has completely shunned her and that this is, you know, what's happened twenty five years ago when she took my dad back. [00:35:07]

So they absolutely did not like that and like her sisters and brothers and they've been upset over it since then and...

THERAPIST: Why? Why were they upset?

CLIENT: But they didn't like him at all and like, you know, his family treated her really badly so she came back home and then like all these people and her siblings were away doing their own thing, they're married and whatnot and this one brother who she was closest and lived with, he came to the US. So... And then my dad came like five years later and then my mom accepted and everyone was like, "How could you after all that he's done? You know, all the pain he's caused us and..." You know, at one point, one of her brothers was like, "I'm just going to take him down. You know? Really just do something about him." [00:36:07]

And then my mom, "No, don't ruin your life. Do your own thing." But there was this animosity which she overlooked because she said she wanted me to have a father and then like her whole family kind of just abandoned her.

THERAPIST: But she didn't chose him. It was an arranged marriage, wasn't it?

CLIENT: Yeah. But she chose... She gave him a second chance. So that's what they're angry about. Because I think the divorce was under way so... But then they remarried... I don't even know.

THERAPIST: The divorce was under way when you were a kid, when you were young? [00:36:53]

CLIENT: Yeah. So...

THERAPIST: Yeah, I guess... I understand that piece, I guess. But she didn't chose him. She was assigned him.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It seems sort of unfair that she would be judged.

CLIENT: Yeah. Absolutely. But then why did she have to take him a second time is what they, their story is.

THERAPIST: Where did her parents find him?

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) He was a student (ph) and my mom's sister's husband was an employee there and like the warden for the dorms where he lived. So all these students used to come by his house, my mom's sister, would kind of be friendly with them and she just sort of picked him. And he was notoriously... Like he had a bad reputation, my mom says. And still like, her sister said, "No, just go ahead." [00:37:59]

And she... My mom says it's because she was living there, in their house at the time and they didn't want her there. So they wanted to get her married and she was twenty nine or something and getting older. So...

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: There were all these signs for them not to get married which were ignored and she blames her sister entirely for pushing it, the lines along. So... This is like a whole bunch of blame game (LAUGHTER) that she does. It's not a game. I'm sure it's legitimate. But I feel it's... For several years, I've just been tired of this narrative. As a child, I completely accepted it. But for a while now I've been tired. Like why... This is so debilitating to be like, "You did this to me. Look. I mean, because of you, I got married and then my life is ruined." You know? [00:39:05]

At some point, you've got to stop saying that like snap and like stand up on your two feet and be like, "This is my life. You know? Okay, so I was weak and I listened to you. But no more. You know? Or I'm going to try to change a few things so that it goes my way. So that I can do what I want to do." You know? I mean, I do a similar kind of thinking I've realized. (SIGH) Like, you know, I blamed Chris's mother for being too powerful and telling me working is a luxury and ruining my one whole year because I deferred school (ph). But I'm going to stop saying that because it was my decision to defer. You know? And it's just one year. It's okay. You know? [00:40:01]

At that time, yeah, her words affected me. But I cannot... I shouldn't hold that grudge on my head, on her head for the rest of our lives. You know? If her words affect me so much then I'm just going to learn to be, to develop a thicker skin and not be in that vulnerable position where she can say stuff and I am swayed. You know? I feel like she should... I don't think she'd change now but...

(PAUSE) [00:41:00]

CLIENT: So you think living with my mom probably is making me feel very encumbered right now? (LAUGHTER) I don't know. I don't know if it's like the therapy or it's really this is what my mind is like all the time when I'm living with her. (LAUGHTER) I don't know.

THERAPIST: How do you mean, "Is it the therapy?"

CLIENT: I mean, you know, bringing this stuff out, like the buried stuff in the background, bringing it out is making me feel like, wow, this is what I... I don't know. Is it what I'm like all the time or... Like would my mind be absolutely like a blank piece of paper with which I could do whatever if I'm living with my mom or if I'm not living with my mom? I don't know?

(PAUSE) [00:42:00]

THERAPIST: You're wondering what's creating this unrest?

CLIENT: Yeah. (LAUGHTER) I... (PAUSE) I feel like her father sometimes. (LAUGHTER) Like, "What do we do with this daughter who's unmarried?" (LAUGHTER) And then I feel like, why don't I have someone like that worried about me? Like, "What do we do with (inaudible at 00:42:35)" There's no one who is thinking of...

THERAPIST: Like your mother?

CLIENT: Yeah. Like her. She's...

THERAPIST: Like mothers often do with their daughters?

CLIENT: Yeah. I think her extent, the extent of her thinking about me is like, "What can I feed her?" (LAUGHTER)

(PAUSE) [00:43:00]

CLIENT: (SIGH) (PAUSE) I mean, it would be awesome to have a pillar but... Right now it's just Chris. (LAUGHTER) (PAUSE) I mean, encumbrances can be pillars. Right? Your chains, your shackles can be, can hold you in place. (LAUGHTER) And that can feel stable and pillar-like.

THERAPIST: That's very interesting. I was thinking though a pillar isn't necessarily something that holds you in place. But something you can go to for strength.

CLIENT: To lean on and stuff.

THERAPIST: Mm hmm. You're usually not chained to a pillar.

CLIENT: (LAUGHTER) But can you not be chained? You know, like you get so used to having it that it is a chain and... I don't know. Maybe I'm overcomplicating things.

THERAPIST: You know, (inaudible at 00:44:47) stop for today. So I will see you on Monday and let's talk more about Skype and so forth on Monday. Is that good?

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay?

CLIENT: Okay. Sounds good.

THERAPIST: Okay. Very good.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Have a good day.

THERAPIST: Okay. You too. Bye bye.

CLIENT: Bye. [00:45:03]

END TRANSCRIPT