TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: I have no idea. When was the last time I was here? Was it Tuesday or Wednesday?

THERAPIST: Wednesday morning.

CLIENT: A lot has happened since then, I guess. (chuckles) Had I signed the lease for my mom's apartment?

THERAPIST: I don't think you had. No.

CLIENT: Well, I'll get to that book. [00:00:57]

Yeah, a lot's happened. (chuckles) Wednesday I signed the lease for my mom. We found a place for her, but something weird happened right then. She and I were just walking out of the apartment and I saw Victor driving by and he looked really upset. And for the next several hours I was thrown into turmoil, because I thought he'd seen me; and he was really upset; and that whole stalking thing was in the back of my mind. I felt like, " Is he going to wonder whether I'm stalking him or not?" Yeah, a lot's happened since then. [00:01:57]

I met him this weekend; this last weekend. See, he was the one who sent me an e-mail saying, "If you want to talk, we can talk this weekend. If not, it's okay with me." Saturday was really, really rough for me. I met him just in the public gardens. Well, I suggested that we meet there because I wanted to show off my camera that my boss has given me to take photos of the (ph) institutions (ph) in Nepal. [00:02:33]

He was there and we talked about photography mostly, and he was giving me tips. He didn't look upset, but there was a complete change in his demeanor and he wanted to be just friends. I can't remember what he said. It was just so shocking to me, but I just didn't-I was in a daze. I think he said, "You and I cannot happen," or "We won't work," something that had real finality to it. So, yes, I was under a great shock because of that and for the rest of the day, I just cried and cried and cried. My mom was just comforting me and talking to me for hours about stuff.

Yeah, since then I'm feeling differently, I guess, if I can distance myself. He and I are talking again over e-mail about photography. I feel really differently about things. Because I'm feelingnot disappointed-at some point, if I think about it, I'm devastated that it's because of my problems that I couldn't work it out with Victor. I still think of him as a fabulous guy and it's the greatest loss of my life, or something like that, that we couldn't work out. It's my loss that-but also I feel responsible and guilty and also upset at my upbringing that I had to be such a mess and I couldn't-I'm wanting to put the blame on my dad like, "It's because of you that I still have not found happiness. That I'm not normal." You know? [00:05:12]

When I was crying on Saturday and I was Skype-ing with Chris (sp?) and I was crying again, and I think I said something like, "I miss my dad," and that's a real first for me. I would never admit that. I would never be able to say that. I don't know where it came from. I think partly because Victor reminded me of my dad. Like, not in a negative way, but in a positive, comforting sort of way like physically when he was present and affectionate that reminded me of those very, very rare moments that I had had with my dad when he was, I don't know, drunk and affectionate? So, I felt like I lost that all over again. [00:06:06]

I definitely don't want to operate from that point of desperation and I couldn't say anything to him-to Victor-when he was talking because he said, "I don't want to rehash what happened." So I couldn't say anything, but I feel like right before leaving I do want to send him this one little note that says that his place came to represent this safe space that I came to to escape my home and my problems with my mom and Chris (sp?). And I clung desperately to that space and obviously when he was going up and down, when he was pushing me away, I didn't want to let go of that space and obviously that's wrong of me because it's his home, I cannot invade his space like that. So, I wonder if I should just send him that e-mail.

I guess the reason why I would want to do that is just, because, honestly, I still have hope that maybe a few months from now I'll be mature enough and I'll be ready enough to be with someone like him, if not him. I don't know if he'll see me differently. Because he thinks it's just that I'm not as mature as him and I throw tantrums and I like drama, and he loses all respect for me when I do that. But I just want him to know that this is what was happening in my head. It's not that I'm not mature enough, it's just that at that time I was in this really difficult space and also to let him know that it's taken me seven years to accept the fact that living with my mom is a problem and it's taken me seven years to do anything about it. It's taken me seven years to realize that Chris (sp?) and I have problems and I can do something about it. I could break up with him. I could tell him that I don't find you attractive, or that we need to work on our physical intimacy. I don't know. I wonder if he should know this and if he would feel slightly differently about me if I told him. I'm not sure. (6 second pause) [00:09:02]

THERAPIST: If you were together, what would you imagine it would bring for you?

CLIENT: I don't know. I haven't really imagined that, too much, to be honest. I have reservations, too, about him. Before I took this plunge into this madness, when I was thinking rationally, and even before, when we were just friends, I could see things that I didn't like about him. I mean, they're a lot hazy now. He's not as ambitious. He doesn't have that spark of wanting to do something different, wanting to make a difference, like I think I have and Chris (sp?) definitely has.

Chris (sp?) is a lot more politically conscious and active and I find that very, very attractive. I think we've talked about this in great detail, but that makes me feel like I'm doing something with my life-to be able to think about issues and all that and Victor doesn't have that. But, then on the other hand, he's just really interesting, he's an inventive thinker and he's always thinking and he's always-I mean, I have fun with him; even when we were just friends. Ever since he's moved to D.C. (chuckles), I've kind of observed him and really, really admired the way that he's living by himself -again we've talked about this-that his apartment is so nice and well-kept and clean and he's always cooking and soon afterwards he's cleaning every little surface and everything is in its place and it's just beautiful. And I'm just like, "Wow!" You know, usually bachelor pads are messy and smelly, but this guy is remarkably well put together. I've been seeing this since he moved. And, again, I want a part of that. It's not mine, but I can learn from it and make my own kind of space. If I allow myself to think that I can make beautiful things, like you said last time. I don't think about that too much. [00:11:48]

Yeah, if we're together, we can talk so much about art and really just have fun. I had stopped having fun with Chris (sp?) long ago. I have these weird associations. Every time someone mentions Baltimore I get depressed, only because Chris (sp?) and I took a small vacation there for two days and it was rainy and it was-I mean, Chris (sp?) was Chris (sp?). Just plain and just stayed and quiet and in love with me; but plain, stayed, and quiet. Just mild. The whole place was looking so depressing. The rain-I mean, I know that maybe I expect too much from, not just him, but the person I am with. I want them to entertain me and sweep me off my feet. And that can't happen all the time. Maybe that's asking for too much. I should pull my share of the weight, too. I should bring something to the dynamic, but I'm not sure. I think, Victor is really different from Chris (sp?) in this regard, but he's intense and does sweep me off my feet; but then again, it might just an initial thing. We don't know each other real well, in this regard. [00:13:33]

I just will always keep wondering what it would be like to have spent a weekend away with him, or something. I don't know, he just brings out these really, really intense feelings in me. I don't know where they come from. Like the other day, we'd agreed to meet in the gardens at 1:30. I had got there earlier, just so I could take some photos and show him, "Look, this is what I've been doing." And he'd got there early, too, and we were around the same spot. So I'm like (makes camera noises) trying to take photos and then he appears in my shot and all of a sudden the atmosphere completely changes and things become so dramatic and all of a sudden it's like the sun has come out or something. I don't know-it's just really-I guess this is what falling in love is all about. I don't know. [00:14:42]

THERAPIST: How did it feel dramatic?

CLIENT: I'm thinking of it in terms of a writer. So you're trying to write about an afternoon and it's beautiful-or you know, if you're painting a picture. There's the tree. There's the light. There's the shade. There's that drama with the light and shade going on that's all well and good. There's children. There's a swan. There's-the scene is there, but you don't have an object that really tells you-that really sums up the moment. What is it about? Is it about an afternoon where you feel love for the first time? There's no emotional investment in the scene for me, until I spotted him (chuckles) and then I knew what I needed to take the picture of. I just had to focus and zoom in on him a little bit and frame-He has long hair and he was standing underneath this weeping willow, which also has kind of flowing long hair like leaves. That just completely changed the scene for me. It's like Anna Karenina (sp?). What is she all about? She's on the train, but you know the moment that she's feeling love when Tolstoy says, "The book is open," but Anna's not reading, she's looking out the window. So, I guess that's the kind of drama, I guess, that he brings out in my perspective in my heart. [00:16:48]

THERAPIST: It sounds like a wish for some kind of transformation.

CLIENT: Hmm...from what to what?

THERAPIST: I don't know. That's a good question.

CLIENT: Well, I've always loved to take photos of Chris (sp?). I mean, I can actually get up close, as well; instead of, in Victor's case, feeling far and stealthily taking the photo. Then, the love that he has for me that comes out in his eyes. I find that beautiful, too. I've taken countless such photos where he's looking like that. It's beautiful. The moment is beautiful, but then it's not-it's just-there's a plainness to it and up until now I would-not up until now. He's very simple and simplicity. It's really hard to be simple. It (inaudible phrase at 00:18:03). Or you can be happy, but you can't be simple. Trubility (ph) is even harder than happiness. But then there is this other side to that simplicity, which is plainness and boring. He calls this, my behavior, the seven year itch and maybe that's what it is. But I think I've had this itch for much longer.

Yeah, I am looking for transformation, but I don't know. (six second pause) And I certainly know not to rush into things, which is what I was doing until now. Like, all those hissy fits that Victor's saying I was throwing was so that I could keep running back into his arms and get that kind of love that he was willing to give me. Obviously, that confused things a lot for me in my head, whether it's Chris (sp?) that was right for me, or not. [00:19:27]

THERAPIST: Is it winning the love, or having the love that you want?

CLIENT: It's, you mean-like a game?

THERAPIST: I hadn't thought of it in terms of a game, but...

CLIENT: Yeah, maybe. I'm not saying that's not possible, that it's just the fact that he's rejected me is what has got me so upset and it's just-as soon as he says, "I love you and want to be with you forever," I'll be like, "Okay. Good-bye." (chuckles) I mean, that might be possible. I'm not ruling that out. Is that-that's what you meant?

THERAPIST: I had a much more open-ended idea, but what did you, when you said, "Oh, like a game," what did you have in mind?

CLIENT: Exactly this. That he's playing hard to get and I'm just like, "Okay, this has never happened to me." Every guy that I've expressed an interest in, has expressed interest back in me. (Not every guy, but you know...)

I mean, it is confusing and he's confused, too, because he continued to be intimate with me for a long time which led me to think that he's leading me on. But I wondered, too, if it wasn't he was the one that was forcing anything, so I don't (14 second pause). [00:21:09]

I've been doing a lot of stupid things. It's not just the confusion with Victor. I told you about the dating site? I did something really stupid on Friday. This one guy, he's 26 years old, I don't really like him that much, but he's very, very persistent and pushy like, "Let's hang out. Let's hang out. I like you." So, on Friday he kept texting and I just said, "Okay, fine, I'll have dinner, but I'm really tired." So, we had dinner and then he's like, "I've got the whole evening planned. We're going to go dancing to this place." And I was supposed to meet another guy for that same dancing thing. So I was like, "Whoa, this is not good." So, I told the first guy that I was too tired and I was just not going to go, but then he got me drunk, so I was like, "Fine. Let's just check it out." This other guy said that he will come an hour later, so I thought by that time I'll sneak out or something. But by then I had had three Rum and Cokes. And I saw him, but I thought that he might not have seen me. It's so dark. It's so many people. And things just got worse. I started dancing. I've never actually been out to clubs, for dancing. Never. So, this is what I should have done 10 years ago, but you know I was in a church and at college, so I was very good back then. [00:23:12]

So, this guy, he was trying to get intimate with me and then he kissed me at some point, and I'm just so drunk I didn't even realize what was happening. But then the whole time I was dancing, I was actually sitting next to this guy who was actually the brother of the DJ and he had some kind of a disability. He couldn't talk and he walks with a frame. I was with him the whole time. I was holding his hands and being with him. And his parents were there, too. And they were just so happy that their son was having so much fun. He and I really connected. He speaks by texting, so we were talking a little bit like that. Like the whole eveningfrom 10 to 2 a.m. And he gave me his number and I gave him my number and his mother was like, "You have to come visit us."

And at some point, I saw this guy-long-hair...I was so drunk and I was like, "Victor!" So, I just went up to him and was like, "What's your name?" And his name was Chris (sp?). (chuckles) I said, "No, no. It's got to be Victor." And he said, "No, it's not." And this guy that I was with, he saw me and he was devastated. (chuckles) And I said, "No, it's nothing. I'm just drunk and this guy reminded me of someone." And then, I sought this guy out a second time, and I gave him my number and I hugged him. And he said, "So, can I call you sometime?" And I said, "Yeah." (chuckles) And I think this guy saw it again and when we came out of the club, he said, "Let's go to my place." And I said, "No." You know, I had to see Victor the next day and I didn't want to do any of that. You know, stay out until 3 a.m. and be so drunk.

So, this guy started crying. He said, "I've put so much into you and you go off and talk to a strange man twice and la-la-la-la." I was just like, "Forget it." So, I ran from there and while I was running, the second guy, who I was supposed to meet up for dancing, he's said, "You know if you're going to show up to the club with a guy who's going to be all over you, you shouldn't go out on a date." And I felt really bad because I'd hurt him and I didn't want him to think lowly of me, even though we'd just met once. So, I texted him back. I lied and I said, "Oh, yeah, I just met this guy in the club and he got me really drunk." (chuckles) I got home and I was just like, "This is ridiculous. This is so not me. I don't do these things." I already know that if you go out to clubs you meet men who are looking for casual whatever and they will get you drunk and if you're drunk you will do things like spot other men who look like Victor or someone (chuckles) and the whole big mess. I was really, really upset the whole Saturday because of this and this already (ph) inch (ph). This is going to be like the darkest chapter in my life, I hope. [00:26:50]

THERAPIST: What makes it dark?

CLIENT: What is this behavior? This is so ridiculous. This is, first of all, not me. I already know way better. I think. And the only positive thing that came out of it was the fact that I met Jeff (sp?). I met this guy with the disability. He reminded me of a cousin I used to have who also had lots of disabilities. He didn't live very long, but he was the only cousin/brother who didn't molest me, you know? (chuckles) Everyone else was kind of-they'd done something or another at some point. Not everyone, but at least three of them. [00:27:37]

THERAPIST: When you were a kid?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What would they do?

CLIENT: Well, one guy was, you know like, he used to bite my vagina. I was like five or six. This happened repeatedly and it took a lot of courage to tell my mom.

THERAPIST: Who was he?

CLIENT: I don't know. I think he was a very distant relative, like my mom's sister's in-laws and their son they had. But, we used to visit their house a lot and in the afternoons they would be like, "Yeah, she'll be in-this guy-and going to take a nap together." I don't know why my mom didn't find that out (ph), but-(seven second pause). Yeah, but I was just very surprised by what I did Friday. I don't want to do that again. [00:28:48]

THERAPIST: I guess one of the reasons I asked about "the dark" was because the way you presented. It's kind of silly, almost absurd. And so, "the dark" part didn't fit with that exactly.

CLIENT: Well, I mean, I'm losing sight of who I am and I'm very, very embarrassed by what I did and I'm very ashamed that-I mean, Victor would call this destroying myself. And in a way, I was trying to destroy myself. You know, lose myself in drink and be so heart-broken over Victor that the first guy with long hair comes along and I'm like, "Hey (chuckles), you. Come here!" You know, that's not me. I'm really...if Chris (sp?) knew about this, how hurt would he be? I mean, the only way that I'm able to talk about it is to make it sound silly and absurd. [00:29:58]

THERAPIST: Because if you didn't do that and talked about it differently, then what would happen?

CLIENT: I would feel horrible about it. I want everyone to think well of me. Even someone like that guy with whom I only had one date, even his opinion matters to me that he sees me at a club and he sees me with someone else over there and gets hurt and thinks that I'm loose or whatever. Even that hurts me. And meeting the parents of Jeff (sp?), that disabled guy, under such a circumstance. I want them to think well of me, too, not that I was with a guy and we were kissing. I was drunk. (sigh) I don't do that and that's not me and that makes me really scared to see myself go so far away from what I know and what I'm comfortable with and running home at 3 a.m. in the morning and there's drunk guys about. (chuckles then 14 second pause) [00:31:18]

But I hope I've learned my lesson from that and I won't repeat it again. (10 second pause) I do want transformation, but I don't want to transform myself into that. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Well, that doesn't really seem-that sounds like a devolution (sp?) not a transformation.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Transformation is something, in a sense, positive. What you're describing is feeling like you've devolved. So, the different direction.

It's interesting, because I think about that question I asked earlier on, about is it about winning or is it about having. Which, I was sort of hoping to try to understand more of the meaning of what you're doing and what you're wanting, and I think sometimes my-like asking you that in different ways, is somehow threatening. That somehow there's a way-maybe not threatening, but there's a way in which you move away from it. Like, it's almost like the more seriously I try to take you, the more you try to convince me not to take you seriously. [00:32:46]

CLIENT: It's not just you who said that. (chuckles) A lot of people have observed this. I'm really just afraid of, I guess, of getting to the bottom of things. But I know this is what I'm here for and I should feel safe -at least in this room; to be able to take myself seriously. I've never been able to take myself seriously. I think it's time I did. (chuckles) (8 second pause)

Maybe (ph) it's, let me think sometimes, think about winning versus having. Can you describe the difference a little bit? Maybe I can think about it. [00:33:47]

THERAPIST: Sure. I guess a different way-it's a question that felt sort of genuine, but I feel like there's a lot of ways-it's not just one thing I had in mind. But I guess I feel like much of what you talk about-understand that's why it's a question, because I'm not entirely sure-is about your desire to be seen a certain way. Is it sort of a winning, like you need to win his approval? Win his love? It's not, "Well, what happens after?" It's about the quest for that. Longing for that. The quest. And so it seems like a lot of what you describe is around that, not like, "Okay, well, then what?" But, then there's a piece of "then what?" because you mention having beautiful things; and I imagine having them, not just sort of winning them, but it's complicated. A lot of what you describe is this striving to get something that you desperately need. [00:34:42]

CLIENT: Yeah, hmm. Well, I feel like I've only just been striving, if even that, for just many things in life. I'm not sure if I have them, you know? So, it's hard for me to get to that point of saying, "Okay, check. This is what I have. And I have it now and this is me." I guess the only thing I have, or had until now, was Chris (sp?) and his love. I had to win that. It wasn't like we met and we clicked and the next day we were together. I don't know.

Even, like in my career, I haven't worked nearly as hard as I should, but it's still been like the narrative thus far is that I'm striving; that I'm struggling. So, it is a quest, in that sense. Is that what you mean? [00:35:56]

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean that and what it is that you're questing after?

CLIENT: To be loved and to have everyone's approval to make up for the fact that I didn't have my dad's, I guess. (8 second pause) Yeah. Even until now, I'm so immature with this whole thing, that when I'm fantasizing, I fantasize about being interviewed and hearing people praise my work. (chuckles) You know it's that like, what I want to "win"? And I don't think instead of wasting time thinking about that, I could actually think about the actual work. But I spend a lot of time just fantasizing, "when it will happen this is how I'll be," and "this is who I'll be," and "I'll be wealthier, maybe." But more importantly, I will be known. That's what I want to be. I'm so uncomfortable and tired that I'm not that. I am some web person that I do stuff on websites. I'm not very proud of that. I want to have something substantial instead of just this.

I'm still waiting to-I mean, in a sense I've put my life on hold. I had put my life on hold. I didn't want to meet people. I didn't want to talk to people about what I was doing, because I just felt like I had nothing to say for myself. Nothing to show for myself. And as soon as I had my work, I would be like, "This is me! This is it. Now I'm finally comfortable and I'm confident that I have the right to live and the right to exist. I have the right to have friends, to make mistakes, to speak my mind, and to have love." (9 second pause)

More than Victor, I guess this is what I want. I want success in my career and to be able to show it off. (chuckles) I know that's the wrong motivation. [00:39:07]

THERAPIST: Well, it also seems whether it's Victor, or Henry (sp?) or work, that somehow it even provides you with a sort of reason for existence or a certain kind of basic viability.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, I cannot be any more clear about this; that this is the only thing that I think will make me want to be able to live with myself. Otherwise, if I don't have it; if I don't make it; if I don't get it; if I don't win it; I'll continue to think very lowly of myself. I'm not worth it. I'm not worth(7 second pause) [00:39:57]

THERAPIST: Well, if you, in a sense, don't feel that your lungs are what allow you to breathe, that it's sort of a respirator which is sort of what you're talking about that there's something outside you that will provide you with viability, you can't help but feel desperate. That's sort of a desperate state of affairs.

CLIENT: I mean, it's both, isn't it? It's external and internal, right?

THERAPIST: Say more.

CLIENT: Well, because, if I work really hard-I mean, it's not just me working hard obviously. It's going to be up to the others, but I feel like I haven't really given it my all and that is the only thing that makes me-Well, it's enabling and disabling at the same time, I guess. It's enabling because I'm like, "Wait a second. There's still stuff I could do from my end to get what I want." But, then again, it's like, "Oh, it's my fault. It's something lacking in me." And that is really disabling. Because I've talked with others and they're like, "Eh, rejection,. Just ignore it. You don't even know when your stuff might be perfect, but it's just not right for them." You know, it's really hard for me to understand that. But that's what it comes down to. It's not just that my work sucks, it's just that they don't have space for me. But, it's both internal and external. And I'm hoping that[00:41:44]

THERAPIST: What did you feel I was saying? I just-I missed that piece.

CLIENT: Pardon?

THERAPIST: You were saying it's both internal and external. What did you feel I was saying? Because it seems like you were sort of correcting, not correcting but responding to it, so I'm not sure what you thought I was saying when you responded that way?

CLIENT: Like what you were saying, when you talked about lungs. You said it's something external that you want to get. I meant that its external, but it's internal as well, because it's something that I will have produced out of myself. It will be my achievement and my happiness would be based out of me. You know, it's like I would be the pillar. I would be my own pillar, you know? Which is the reason why no matter what Chris (sp?) did, it didn't make me happy. He couldn't touch this part of me that was really unhappy, because it had nothing to do with him. It wasn't that we didn't have great intimacy. It wasn't that we didn't have whatever-We had money issues and what not. It was just this big sadness in me that I wasn't able to work hard and I wasn't able to be successful, so this was my pain and I had to do something about it and no one else could help me. So, it's very internal. Is that-I don't know. Maybe I misunderstood you. [00:43:20]

THERAPIST: No. No. Not at all. In some ways I was thinking, in terms of just what we were saying, that I wonder at moments where you feel so yearning for Victor that it's confusing? Do you need a respirator or can you rely on your lungs? It just gets confusing. [00:43:38]

CLIENT: Well, I guess the yearning for him is quite equivalent to yearning to be successful. (chuckles) It's as bad as that, I guess. But now that I know things are over, I'm a lot less desperate. Because that tap was still open. I could see it. I just needed to get my cup there. I just kept struggling and being desperate because I could see it flowing and I could see that it was on, so I just had to get there. But now that I see that it's shut, it's inaccessible, it's whatever now. Yeah, I guess, okay. (chuckles) But, I still cannot kill that hope that one day it will be open again and I'll be right next to it. [00:44:35]

THERAPIST: Well, that hope and that need and that yearning. I mean, I feel like that's kind of what I want to honor and explore further in here. No one seeks things with such intensity that are inconsequential.

CLIENT: You mean he's inconsequential?

THERAPIST: No, I said no one seeks something so intensely that is inconsequential. Sort of by definition and so, I guess in that sense I want to honor that. Because it's clearly very special.

CLIENT: I wish he'd honor it. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: But, I don't think it's about him. That's the thing.

We need to stop. So, I'll see you tomorrow. So, let's talk a little bit skype-ing. Do you want to-do you need-I do not Skype very much, so you'll have to guide me through. I do have a Skype account. So, do you dial it and how does Skype work? [00:45:38]

(Continued conversation regarding how to continue sessions via Skype and appointment times, etc. until end of dictation.)

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