TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Yeah, I thought that today was, like, it's a holiday, right?

THERAPIST: It is. I'm here a lot of Monday holidays. I... yeah, it is technically a holiday, but...

CLIENT: I was actually wondering if I should just come once a week? Just because, I think, maybe twice a week is getting me really upset, because I guess it's supposed to, you know?

THERAPIST: Let's talk about that. Yeah, how do you mean?

CLIENT: I don't know; like, since Friday, I've been kind of really low (chuckles). It might be because it's... holidays, I don't like holidays. I like to constantly work (chuckles). Ever since I've been in the country, I hate weekends because I just feel like there is nothing to do, or you know, you have to think of stuff to do... But anyway, it was like this weekend, I mean, it's like hormonal or whatever, but I was just upset a lot. [00:01:05]

I just wonder like... I guess I won't technically think about it, because like, you know, obviously, when one is doing therapy, one is supposed to be processing things which will make, affect your mood and stuff. But like, I don't want to be so upset that I cannot work, because as far as working goes, I have to be, like, in a particular frame of mind, where I'm feeling positive and confident and... because I have to think a lot when I work, and obviously people do, but... If I'm too upset, then it hampers my productive/creative thinking (chuckles). So I just wondered, like, what was your opinion? [00:02:02]

THERAPIST: Yeah, there are a lot to talk about there, but... So we met twice a week last week, right? So clearly, I mean... it seems like you're quickly coming to this decision, like "Oh my gosh, maybe twice a week is too much!" Something maybe got stirred up last week that made you, like, want to come to a decision about this.

CLIENT: Well, I was just wondering not so much as come to a decision, but at least, like, talk about it or like ... I'd, I mean, it just made me think about it just because... Yeah, I mean like, I know that I'm making progress here. I am confident of that, and you know, like whenever I said last time that I want to get something out of this, I want to get better or whatever, you know, like, have resolutions on things...

But that may also mean that I will be subjecting myself to some kind of, you know, like pain? I don't know. I guess we can try it for a couple of more weeks. I mean, I haven't actually started work, but I mean, if I am, I mean obviously... but, yeah, this within is just like (chuckles). [00:03:25]

THERAPIST: What was... tell me about it.

CLIENT: Well, just like I had to see my mom on Saturday. She lives in Cheshire, so... I'm trying to find, um, but... I hadn't driven through Cheshire in a while, and I just got really, really upset. I was in the car with Chris and I'm going to see my mom for lunch and I just started crying, because I didn't know want to go through Cheshire and be reminded of (Victor ph?) (chuckles). I was really upset. And I didn't want to see my mom, because of all, you know, stuff that we were talking about the previous Wednesday. [00:04:15]

I think I am trying to not deal with her (chuckles). I'm trying to get some emotional distance from her and it really upsets me, like, talking to her and hearing her sound so low. I feel... I don't want to deal with it and... (chuckles). I feel a little irresponsible, but I feel like... I don't' know, it feels nice not to want to think about her and feel responsible for her happiness and just keep racking my brains as to what could be done to make her feel better, make her sound better, but really is it... I mean, even when we did live together, she was depressed, you know? Whatever, and... (pause) You know, I have put her in a box, and put it in Cheshire (chuckles). Like, "I don't want to think about her! I don't want to go there, because of her and because of Victor and..." I'm just like... [00:05:35]

(pause) I mean, I feel, you know, things wouldn't get better with my mom, I mean, as, like, just, with her as what? (chuckles) But, I just... (pause) I mean like, stuff of, like Chris wanted me to, he was asking me if you and I were talking about this, about me trying to get over Victor. And I haven't brought him up in a long time, that feels really nice. But it seems that, you know, once again, I'm thinking about him or somehow... I don't know if it's hormonal (chuckles), but I have been thinking, you know... [00:06:47]

(sighs) Feels like, you know, that situation is not resolved or it will... I just have to give it time and get over him, you know? Not really sure about that, like, because I still find myself wondering who I want to be with (chuckles), even though it's not entirely up to me, you know? So, I'm not really sure... And I just wanted to stall the decision, you know? Like (notch ph?). Not think about who I want to be with, that question, you know, for months or a year or something like that, but I think being with Chris makes me think about Victor. That makes sense, right? [00:07:55]

THERAPIST: Uh-hmm. Were you not sure? When you said, "That makes sense, doesn't it," were you not sure that it did?

CLIENT: Well, like I thought you know like I could elaborate on why, being with Chris makes me think of Victor, but I guess it's obvious. You know, when you think of romance, you obviously perhaps think of people, or one person, who you feel romantically about? I don't know... I guess, yeah, but, like his mom called him, Chris's mom called him. He was asleep and he said... It just occurred to her that we're not living together anymore and she's like, "So is this serious? What's going on? You know, is there someone else, for you or her, you know, so... Because people, like children all around her are getting married and having babies and, you know, her son has been dating this girl for seven years and it's just not going anywhere, so obviously she's concerned, you know, as a parent. [00:08:57]

Chris, too, is; he's like, you know, "By next year, I need to take a decision, you know, whether we're going to be together..." Sometimes he says, "I need to get married, like, we have to get married." Other times, he's like, "Well, maybe I'm not so keen on marriage, but I need to know one way or the other, whether you want to be with me or not." Yeah, that's fair, that's absolutely fair.

It's a big old mess, but I'm just, I feel so pressured when I think of, you know, marriage and marrying him. I remember feeling so strongly not wanting that, and seeing Victor just, knowing that I did not feel the same way about Chris, though now that I haven't seen Victor in that way for months, and then seeing Chris in that way, it feels... neat, because this could work, you know? (chuckles) [00:10:05]

Again, you know, what you said last time is completely one of the problems that, you know, like, the roles are smudged and there is, you know, leaking into each other where, you know, he is a boyfriend as well as a brother as well as a father. So, obviously, that confusion probably manifests itself in bed, you know? And in other areas, so... where I lean on him too much and stuff. I feel like the problem is with me, and like, if I just, you know, resolve certain questions for myself and learn, like, not to lean on people so much, maybe I'll, then I'll know who, what kind of a person I want to be with.

I just feel (horrid ph?), I mean like, I really just, I feel like I messed up so badly, like in every... I mean, if I just had some sort of strength, you know? Like, just a little bit of strength of my own, I would not have fallen apart like I did and... I would have learned to take rejection, you know, in work and not taken it so hard. [00:11:25]

Like, yesterday, I went to see this poet friend in Harvard. He's actually also friends with Chris; well, we've known him for only like a year or something. He's a visiting professor at Harvard, and he and I kind of connected a little bit, earlier in the year? Yeah, and Chris wasn't here, and we just met a couple of times. I was telling him about, you know, my romantic debacles and like, he was telling me about his, and we just kind of shared a moment where I was like, you know, I felt attracted to him, but, just for that split second. [00:12:15]

But now, he has some sort of expectations. He's much older. But even in jokes, he will say something like, "If you were just a little bit older, I would marry you," and this and that. I feel like he has feelings for me, but then I just feel so harangued, like all I want from him is, like, a lot of feedback for my work (chuckles), because you know, he is published, he's like a preeminent poet, and... you know, and (sighs) and a scholar. I mean, you know, so he's a brilliant man and all that.

But I don't feel (chuckles), I just feel like I don't want a relationship with him, you know, yet another person to cheat on Chris with, it feels like, you know? And it's just like... I wish I could just resolve this once and for all, and not be this, you know, like "spinster about town," or something, you know? Like, I don't like that (relationship ph?), I mean, I don't think I can. [00:13:30]

THERAPIST: See, what a funny juxtaposition of "spinster about town"! (client laughs) It's a very funny juxtaposition!

CLIENT: (laughs) But that's me, though, you know, like...

THERAPIST: You're about town, but you're a spinster, too?

CLIENT: Yeah! I mean that's exactly my sexual position, where I am un-fuckable (chuckles) and yet I...

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: I think we've... (chuckles)

THERAPIST: What have we talked about? Why do you feel unfuckable? I'm serious.

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yeah, because Chris and I still haven't been able to actually have sex and...

THERAPIST: That does that make you unfuckable, though. I'm serious.

CLIENT: (laughs) Well, it does, because it's just... I don't know. Yeah. (pause) (sighs) I just feel like banging my head against the wall because this is like, what's, you know, that's what I thought, you know? Like, I'm not trying to overcomplicate, I know in every single situation that's what I do, I overcomplicate, I overthink. But in this situation, I thought I had a resolution, then I realized, Okay, maybe that reaction that happens every single time is me not finding him attractive, not... and maybe that not finding him attractive is that whole, you know, (bundle ph?) here about, oh, father/brother/boyfriend, you know, this wanting to, you know, enter me and all that. And maybe that's when the, that's why, you know, my body just shuts up. And that's why I thought, Okay, with Victor, I did not feel this way. So... but he's, you know, gone, in a puff of smoke, so... And I'm just supposed to be with him, but that's what I feel like, you know, I'm being charged to do, you know? And I'm unable to complete my duties. [00:15:30]

THERAPIST: Which, in that sense, you're... Chris is your mother; that these are people who you're supposed to be loyal to, and you need to stay loyal to them. And that's the position your mother has, too.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, that's maybe why I'm not living with both of them now. I mean... Yeah, I mean, we were all living together, I guess and I felt really, really pressured by them. And, you know, because I was in (Phoenix ph?), we all came back from Nepal, and Chris was working on his thesis and we didn't have any money and I was charged by my professor, who was this preeminent scholar, to focus on my work. He said, "You know, the next few years are critical for you. You have talent. Figure out a way, so that you can just work." [00:16:30]

And I couldn't do that, because, you know, I had to... I felt like I had to find a job and support my mom and Chris. So I did that for that year, but then, maybe, that's why I felt, you know, that, along with other things, made me feel burdened by both of them. The house being the mess that it was, both, you know, it was like, actually and emotionally; Victor's place just felt like heaven, (chuckles) you know? I wasn't required to do anything there, just, you know... I was invited just to have fun (chuckles), and that felt very, very wrong (chuckles) and nice and exciting, you know? I'm not sure... [00:17:37]

THERAPIST: One thing I was thinking about is, you know, clearly there have been... you're fairly unhappy in your life now. In fact, I would say you're very unhappy in your life now.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: You think that you're not?

CLIENT: I am, but I was just talking to a friend. She was like, "You seem happy." And I was like, "I'm not!" And I kept denying it, and it was like you know, maybe I am happy. So, that's, you know, if I think positive, then, you know, that will make it so. (laughs)

THERAPIST: That actually wasn't my point, that was the beginning of a point.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: But sometimes, you see things that really throw me off guard. Like, I don't know where they come from, especially since you've been talking how unhappy you feel in your life. So, when I say something that seems fairly evident, it's not really something I'm going to argue for, I say you see that as a given, and then I'm going to make my argument, you... I mean, it gets turned around! It's so interesting.

CLIENT: Oh, oops! (chuckles) [00:18:32]

THERAPIST: You shouldn't apologize, it's just interesting.

CLIENT: Yeah, well, I've always (blocked)...

THERAPIST: Where does that come from, though? I don't know. Like, so when I said that, it just didn't seem true? I don't want to say things that don't seem true, and you don't correct me, when I said you were being unhappy.

CLIENT: Well, so like, there have been changes, I don't know if they are positive or negative, that I feel will bring me... it's not happiness in some semblance of, like, having things go my way, you know? Like, living separately and going back to school. Both things that could be interpreted in a completely opposite way, but I feel like I want them to stand for positive changes, not changes because I had a breakdown and that's why I'm doing all of those things, you know? Going back to school is regressive, or moving out and acting like a teenager, wanting to feel like a teenager is regressive. I don't want... I don't know. But I... yeah. [00:19:39]

THERAPIST: So, I was saying unhappy and you started wondering, well does that mean you're not making positive changes. Somehow, you associated those two.

CLIENT: Yeah...

THERAPIST: Like... yeah. You saw those as similar. Do you see what I'm saying?

CLIENT: Why do you think I'm unhappy? (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Well, I could... what makes me think you're unhappy? Or what are... what do you... do I... what are the symptoms of your unhappiness, or what do I think the contributions are?

CLIENT: I don't know. I just wanted (chuckles) you to elaborate your point.

THERAPIST: You're in a lot of turmoil. (client affirms) And that makes really anybody unhappy, to be in that much turmoil.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, that's true. (chuckles) But the turmoil probably happens when I think about these things, right? I mean... [00:20:35]

THERAPIST: It's sort of like saying, (chuckles) like if you have a knee injury? That your knee injury only exists when you're walking. The knee injury always exists, but when you're walking, you're aware of it. The knee's injury doesn't go away when you're not walking. Do you see the analogy?

CLIENT: But you're not bothered by your knee injury if you're not walking, right?

THERAPIST: Yeah, the problem is, though, you usually need to walk... don't you think?

CLIENT: But what if you have a desk job...

THERAPIST: Yes, I know, but what would be the analogy, that you don't think?

CLIENT: Yeah. If you put things in boxes, right? I mean, you don't talk to your mom...

THERAPIST: Oh, (chuckles) that will help! When you don't talk to your mom, you don't feel any guilt?

CLIENT: I do. (both laugh) [00:21:19]

THERAPIST: That's what I'm saying. The analogy breaks down, but even with a desk job, you may do less walking, but you still have to walk. And you, who love to use your mind, to compartmentalize and cut off pieces of your mind that just is a waste of mind space, compartments that you can otherwise be accessing.

CLIENT: For what, access for what?

THERAPIST: For your work, for your life, for your emotions, for everything. If you're living in a house, locked half the doors, and decided you can't go in them, you only have half the house to work with!

CLIENT: Well, maybe you only need half the house. (chuckles) I mean, I cannot change, I cannot make my mother happy right now, right? She is going to sound sad every time I call her.

THERAPIST: Absolutely.

CLIENT: So, do you recommend that I face it, that she's sad and call her, like I would normally do, and accept that she's sad, but not feel so guilty, that I cannot function? I mean, is that... [00:22:25]

THERAPIST: That sounds good!

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, if I get there, you know, that will be good. (chuckles) I'm trying to get there, I mean, we're going to meet for lunch later, so...

THERAPIST: Yeah, I don't think those are the answers, though. Like I think whether you meet with your mother or not is more of a symptom rather than the cause.

CLIENT: Yeah. But what would be the cause?

THERAPIST: All this turmoil you feel between, the very bas... maybe at the heart or core, these conflicting loyalties. (client affirms) It almost like... a kind of destiny, like who you were meant to be in life. Were you meant to be your mother's soul mate? Were you meant to have your own destiny? These are like big questions that you feel very confused about, and that cause you a lot of anguish.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) I mean I'd like to (chuckles) be helpful, but not to the point where I cannot do my own things and be my own person. I don't know what that means, in my case, being my own person, but I hoped that getting some physical distance from the people that I felt bound to might, you know, give me some answers eventually, you know? Living on my own... [00:23:58]

THERAPIST: Well, let me make the point I was going to make, that I'm not making because (both laugh) my first proposition wasn't (especially ph?) endorsed. To me it seems... Okay, so to me it seems like a lot of the time you feel turmoil. You're in turmoil, and a lot of it, you feel it, too. But your thought was, "This therapy can be, could be, might be very painful; is, and could continue to be painful." So somehow the pain you feel now might feel more tolerable than the possible pain, you know what I'm saying? There is a sort of calculus there, that there is a worry about what might (feel ph? /blocked by traffic noise) in this process and that's actually what I was wondering about.

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, like I said, I mean, so long as it's manageable, sure. I mean, I know this is not a walk in the park, you know? (chuckles) I'm not taking it as that. I'm taking it seriously, which means that, you know, the pain that I'm experiencing, I know that this pain is probably, you know, far more manageable and better than, you know, going through a breakdown in which I don't only harm myself, but I harm those around me, you know? [00:25:22]

So I'm very aware of that, but at the same time, I also want to be able to produce some work over the next few months. You know, it's just like, I'm just trying to, you know, (gauge ph?) or, you know, shut off the tap so that the trickle of pain is manageable. If it's too much, then (chuckles) I'd like to just turn the tap of, you know... that's all. (chuckles) I mean, we can see, you know. We can go on for a few weeks and see.

THERAPIST: Well, I also want to think about what is... is it, yeah, like... what is causing that pain. I mean, in a general way, sure. Bringing up issues and looking at them can be more painful than keeping them in a suitcase is the general idea. But, yeah, I guess I'm wondering if there are more things that are more specific, or more concerning, or more specifically concerning to you. [00:26:21]

CLIENT: Well, just my interaction with my mother has been a bit tense and maybe it's because she's going through stuff, or maybe it's because she (inaudible at 00:26:33) does as well, as I'm thinking about all these things and feeling sad by them, you know? Things that are brought up in the therapy, and like thinking about Victor, I don't know if that was just, if it's hormonal or if it's just... you know, when I have a little more time, or a long weekend comes along, and I start thinking of him. I don't know, you know, if I'm not busy and working, I think of him. I don't know.

THERAPIST: What do you think about, when you think of him?

CLIENT: Oh, I just... I miss him. I wonder what he's doing, I wonder if he's thinking about me, I wonder if that chapter is completely closed, I wonder if we'll ever see each other in that capacity again, I wonder if it will ever work out, I wonder if it's the right thing to do, to want to be intimate and to want to be in a relationship with Chris's friend, and if there are people that look at that, you know (chuckles) so on and so forth. I wonder if I should even be thinking about him after he treated me the way he did, and then, you know, whether he was justified in treating me the way he did. [00:28:00]

THERAPIST: Do the weekends make you feel like you're in less contact with people?

CLIENT: Um... less contact with... well, it's supposed to do. So the week is filled with things I'm supposed to do, and they give me structure, they make me feel useful and productive. But the weekend is just, like too much time and I feel like I mismanage, I feel like I waste time. (sighs) I mean, I saw a lot of people this weekend, so... But, you know... it wasn't productive work. (pause)

THERAPIST: That's interesting because I was thinking that there seemed like always something that threw you off about me being here on a holiday, because it's a weekend, is this not... what does it mean, that I'm at work and, it seemed like you were trying to make sense of that. [00:29:12]

CLIENT: Yeah, it's... I assumed you would be not working and (chuckles)...

THERAPIST: What would I be doing instead?

CLIENT: I don't know! Having a long weekend, sailing? (laughs)

THERAPIST: Sailing??

CLIENT: I imagine you're like, this is not like a racial thing, I just, you know, imagine that Americans have fun over the weekend and they do, you know, nice things, like have a picnic or go sailing or (laughs). Maybe those things I would like to do, but I have not been able to do them or I cannot even picture myself doing them (chuckles).

THERAPIST: Yeah, you said these are things that Americans would do.

CLIENT: Yeah. I still feel, you know, that being an immigrant, I still feel like only half of an American, or not really there yet, the transformation that needs to happen or happens. I don't feel fully Americanized, fully transformed. I guess that's okay, there are several ways of being an American (chuckles). (pause 00:30:37 to 00:31:00)

I also wondered, like, what Victor was doing, if he was... how he was spending the long weekend, if he was working or if he was, if he went to a nice place, like what he said we would do one time (chuckles), but you know, always, he totally just said that, didn't mean it. (sighs)

THERAPIST: Victor almost seems like a placeholder from a life from which you are excluded.

CLIENT: I don't know... I don't know if that's for me, you know? Like... for years, I've belonged to Chris, you know? I've been loyal to him, I've tried to live life the way he lives it, working, trying to imbibe that ethic of working really hard. I mean, I don't work nearly as hard as he does, but, you know, that was my life. [00:32:10]

And I hated spending weekends with him. I hated them! We took trips, and... except for the first trip that we took together, like the first year we were dating, all the others just... I think about it, I just want to smack someone! Just like, I was so bored, I remember being so bored and... But, then again, now I'm thinking, "Well, maybe I depend too much on him to make me happy."

You know, like, if two people are spending time together, if two people are in a sailboat, only the one person cannot, I don't know if it's a sailing term, like how do you say, like they're not supposed to do all the work, you know. They're not supposed to do all the work and provide the wine and the food and, you know, the conversation and everything, you know? The second person needs to do stuff, too. So maybe I was just not pulling my share, the weight. [00:33:10]

But I don't know if that's the thing. Because I feel like, with Victor, I did. I did more than... Like, he had, he'd written "madeleines" on his grocery list for the longest time. I don't know if I already told you, but like, so I got him madeleines from the coffee shop, and then, you know, we were eating them, he was like, "Oh, there are just so much fat in them!" So then, the next day, I called up, like five or six stores in D.C. and Providence, like, "Do you have a madeleine... the, you know, the thing that you make them in? [00:33:50]

THERAPIST: Wait, I don't know what a madeleine is.

CLIENT: The cookies that Proust...

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

CLIENT: The French... If you go to the coffee shop...

THERAPIST: The French... oh, "maudlins"? Oh, yeah, yeah. I call them "maudlins." Is that what they're called?

CLIENT: No! (chuckles)

THERAPIST: They're called madeleines? But aren't they spelled like "maudlin"? Isn't that how they are spelled?

CLIENT: No! Maudlin has a "u" in it.

THERAPIST: M-A-U...it's not spelled like that?

CLIENT: No, (spells /incorrectly/) (laughs)

THERAPIST: You're right; there is no "u" in it. I was... I don't know, that's an interesting association itself, right? Sad cookies? [00:34:22]

CLIENT: Yeah, well, I can be maudlin! (laughs) But, yeah, so then I like, they had them at Macy's, so I got the thing and I started making madeleines for him. So, I've done like crazy things for, you know, you can like call them crazy, but... So I felt like I've tried to provide my... I tried to do my share of whatever, and he provided the, I don't know, the romance and the music and the movies and all that. So I felt like our combination was really fun, but then maybe it might have been fun, because it was wrong or whatever, who knows?

But with Chris, like, we took trips, we went to Baltimore one time, when we were in Ohio, we drove to Baltimore and you know, the trip that... we went to Colorado? I was just so bored! (laughs) Because he was, you know, cerebral and he's like thinking, thinking, thinking, probably about work... and I'm just like... okay, this sucks. (chuckles) [00:35:42]

But when we're back in town, and we have all that structure, then we're a lot better (chuckles). It's like neither of us know how to have fun or something, you know? But going back to your point... what did you say Victor was, a placeholder for what?

THERAPIST: For a life from which you are excluded.

CLIENT: Yeah. I feel excluded because... I don't know if that is for me, you know? Like, because Chris said, "You can't just have fun, you know." He said, "You need to get over him. I'm just going to say this, because, you know, in life you have to work, you know? You have goals, you have missions; to reach them, you have to work, you have to work a lot harder than what you're doing right now." So then, I was like, "Yeah, you know? What the heck have I been doing, you know? I've nothing to show for several months, you know? So get back to that ethic of working, and that's me." Yeah. And forget about Victor and his... forget fantasizing whether he's taking a walk (chuckles) you know, in Western Maryland, looking at the colors, taking pictures or whatever. That's something that the three of us did; well, four of us, my mom included, in 2010 (chuckles). [00:37:15]

THERAPIST: Well, one thought I had: I don't think, as a sort of a general approach to life, compartmentalizing is great. So I think it has a lot a downsides; it has some upsides, too. But I think especially for you, I mean, your sort of vocation, avocation, is to inhabit all of these different worlds.

CLIENT: Exactly!

THERAPIST: And so to have to, sort of, prematurely foreclose or even just foreclose worlds is like, with a, you know, a police caution tape over them, seems like it goes against those, sort of the thing that you want to do in life.

CLIENT: That's exactly why I'm in this turmoil. I mean, because I felt like Victor broke down all those police tapes. I mean, I wish I could scream (chuckles) as to Chris and me, like he's had a positive change and I guess, you know, people... that should not be the reason why I should want to be with him, but, you know, the reason why I'm in therapy right now is because of Victor. He kept saying that you need therapy, you need therapy. And Chris says he's losing it, too, but, you know, better (if you don't ph?) listen to what he's saying, but, whatever! [00:38:25]

So, and like, I feel like... I was at a point where I was just like, "This is not working out," you know, I was suicidal, this and that. And I felt like Victor really brought me around, in the sense that, yeah, it was sort of like romance is its own whatever, you know, drug or what not. But in other senses, as well, like, I feel like he helped me to face things that I would not have faced. Like, even like sexually, like... I felt for the second time in my life, that I actually wanted to have sex. And he was helping me, you know, like trying to open me up and all that. So that is back, and I was starting to depend on him, in the sense I was expecting that, you know, finally I'm going to be able to go through this rite of passage, you know? [00:39:21]

Then I feel like he, the way that he is, helped me to not be afraid of certain things, you know? (pause) I don't know if you're wondering why I'm associating breaking down barriers with Victor and compartmentalizing with Chris. Maybe neither of them has these attributes, but in my head, they do (laughs), in my head they representing two very different ways to live life.

THERAPIST: Well, certainly with Victor, there is an idea of being expansive, and with Chris, it's like being constricted.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Perhaps that's the reason why Chris is successful and Victor not so much. (laughs) But then again, like, are you just all about success or are you all about living expansively, you know, a fulfilled life. [00:40:39]

THERAPIST: Do you think that most people live a constricted life?

CLIENT: I don't know. I haven't asked anyone this question. It depends, I guess they just...

THERAPIST: Probably.

CLIENT: You have to figure out what works for you. And my professor, he is very prolific, he's, you know, as soon as he finishes a project, he's onto his, like his next and he's married and he has children, so he... I mean, he probably figures out a way to work, you know? Whatever that may be. And I have to figure out what works for me, because like, I felt... I had come at a crossroads where like I felt very restricted in everything.

But, like, Victor's expansiveness made me open up to a lot of ideas and things. I felt like, you know, having fun is a priority, you know, being fun is a priority. If you're not fun and you're not open to things, then you're going to... you know, be constrictive and when you're constrictive, you cannot work well. I couldn't work well under, like when I was thinking in that mode. [00:42:01]

But then again, now that I've learned this lesson, should I just take what he's given me and just move on, you know? And be constrictive again (chuckles)? Or I don't have to be! I could be my own person, I could take a little from Victor, take a little from Chris, and you know, make my own... I don't know, (pasta ph?), make my own, you know, like way of thinking, which is what I want to do, which is what I think I'm trying to do. (chuckles) Very confusing...

THERAPIST: You said, "very confusing"?

CLIENT: Yeah...

THERAPIST: I was thinking about, you know, what you brought up at the beginning of the session, and I think there is so much to unpack in it. But, I mean, certainly on the one hand, it's true that bringing up issues and looking at them can be very painful. (client affirms) That is very true. [00:43:08]

The other thing, though, is that people can find, I think you would find, and you have found that therapy can also be very supportive and a way to feel that you're unburdening yourself and actually feel better, rather than only worse. I think if you go back, not the worse, but more pain. I mean, I think that's all in there.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, like I said, I definitely will continue twice a week for a few weeks and... (chuckles) I mean, I can really accept that, you know, it's... it's supportive as well. I do feel supported and liked. But then again, I wonder, I just... this weekend, it just threw me off, and I just wondered, like, if I was more upset.

THERAPIST: Well, what's interesting is that in that, it seemed like your impulse was then to move away rather than move toward. [00:44:10]

CLIENT: Yeah (chuckles). Like one of my goals is just to produce some more, a lot more work by the end of the year, so whatever is keep... I mean, if anything is keeping me from it, then I just... I mean, that's how I think, in those terms. Like, "If I do this, will it..." you know, whatever... or help, so... (chuckles) And therapy is actually something very important to me, because I want it to go well, I don't want to run away, and I don't want to... you know, like, despise it or something, you know? I don't know if you noticed, but that's the way I start feeling about everything, about people, about things. I start despising them. (chuckles) [00:45:08]

THERAPIST: Well, you feel trapped, (client affirms), trapped by the sense of obligation (client affirms), and then you just want to break free of it (client affirms), and then you feel sad, because once you've broken free, you're not even sure what you've broken free of or what's gotten you in the end.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's right. (pause)

THERAPIST: I mean, I meet with people three or four times a week. I meet with people as much as they need me.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah? (chuckles) I didn't know that. Three or four seems a lot (laughs).

THERAPIST: Um... It is! It's a lot. I don't necessarily think it's too much for some people.

CLIENT: Yeah, well, whatever they need, I guess.

THERAPIST: There are a lot to talk about.

CLIENT: Yeah. In my case, I don't know if there is too much to talk about. There are just like, the same things, over and over again. (chuckles) I don't know if you feel that way, but... [00:46:14]

THERAPIST: It doesn't feel that way to me, but it feels that way to you?

CLIENT: Yeah, just because I'm like, you know, thinking about Victor and the same things, like same questions over and over and over. They don't really manifest themselves in any new light, it's just the same thing. (pause)

But I guess after therapy, they do feel... not quite the same, you know? Because there is just... I guess you're able to pull out different strands from... things. (pause 00:46:59 to 00:47:30)

So, if I asked you, point-blank, like, is Victor good for me? (chuckles) Should I be thinking about him? Would you have an answer?

THERAPIST: Well, maybe. But I guess, at first I would want to do know what "good for you" means. What does that mean?

CLIENT: Someone I should have in my life, if I should keep... if it's healthy for me to have expectations from him or still harbor romantic feelings for him. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Do you feel like you have a choice, whether to feel a certain way or not?

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well, you're saying, should you do this or... it sounds like, "Oh, should I have these feelings or should I not have these feelings?" That's what it seems like you're asking.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's what I'm asking. [00:48:30]

THERAPIST: Have you been, had success in the past by just telling yourself how to feel a certain way?

CLIENT: Um... if I tell myself that yes, there is still a possibility, I am very happy. (chuckles) I'm very like, I feel I can, you know, conquer, not the whole world, but you know, like, at least you know, a tiny little island. But then, like this weekend, you know, with Chris around so much, I felt like that, you know, window of opportunity was just really shutting and that was it. I had to choose to be with Chris, and that was my destiny, I guess, so that made me cry a lot. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Sort of this lack of hope. (client affirms) I mean, that was my other thought, is that, I don't know, Victor in particular, I don't know, but, it sounds like what he represents for you is vital for your life-the sense of freedom, the sense of adventure, excitement, expansiveness. Whether he needs to be the one to bring it to you, or even can, I don't know, probably not, actually. But what he represents and who he is... sure. [00:49:50]

CLIENT: Well, why can't he bring...

THERAPIST: He in particular? (client affirms) It sounds like he's out of the picture! (chuckles)

CLIENT: Yeah?

THERAPIST: Is he not? I don't know! (chuckles)

CLIENT: I don't know. When we were breaking up, he said, you know, "Let's meet in five, six months and assess where we stand." But then, after that, I barged into his home and got really upset, and then we met. He said, I can't remember what he said, I was too traumatized. I think he said, "We can't work," or something. And I didn't press him and say, "You mean forever or for just, you know a year or two or...?" I don't know.

THERAPIST: You could, like... Yeah, we're going to need to stop in a moment. I was just going... It seemed like you got very disappointed when I said that. [00:50:40]

CLIENT: Yeah! (chuckles) Of course.

THERAPIST: Well, because you have a very different perspective at the moment than I do. Your perspective is that, it's this person who contains what... it's not only what he represents, it's him. There is no other person who could provide that for you, there is not a piece of it that you can provide for yourself. It's him, or it's nothing.

And so in that way of thinking, if I say, "I don't know if it's him; probably not," it seems, I think what you're hearing is, "This experience, this way of being, doesn't exist;" which is not what I'm saying. (client affirms) That is what you're hearing, because you associate them so closely together, they are almost interchangeable, that that's what you hear. But that's not what I intend.

CLIENT: Uh-hmm. For right now, he represents all that. [00:51:33]

THERAPIST: I know. I need to be sensitive to that. (client chuckles) I'll be more sensitive to that. We are going to need to stop for today. So I will see you on Friday, 3:00. Okay.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Take care, (Cecelia ph?).

CLIENT: You, too.

THERAPIST: Bye.

END TRANSCRIPT