TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in. I wanted to let you know that earlier, the time before this actually did become available, so if you want to come at 10:15 on Mondays, I could do that.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: You said that would work better for you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay, so we'll do that. So I have you at 10:15 on Monday and then 9:00 on Wednesdays.

CLIENT: Okay, so it's like set now?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Does that work for you?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Good.

CLIENT: It's hot. Let me just... okay. (sighs) [00:01:00]

So, what did we talk about the last time? I wanted to ask you because [Chris?] said he thinks we should seek help and like, if I want to be with him. So, I just wanted to ask you if that was does that sound okay, or maybe what should I do about that.

THERAPIST: Well, what would you like?

CLIENT: Nothing. (laughs nervously)

THERAPIST: Well, then I shouldn't tell you to do something if you don't want to.

CLIENT: No, I'm not really sure like I guess it is important to make a decision about my relationship with Chris. I'm not really sure if that's something that is... (sighs) I don't know, if you could help me with that or like if it's what I should do about it, you know?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. I'd like to help you with it. [00:02:39]

CLIENT: I'm not sure, like yesterday, he and I were talking. We're always like, you know, I want (sounds frustrated) Saturday morning, we were almost broken up. He was just like, I can't give you what you're looking for and that's it. But then, we got a little intimate again and that changed his mind again. So I'm not he doesn't like it of course, you know, when I talk about our relationship. He keeps saying don't mention it when he's just like swirling in my head, if the topic of love and relationship comes up, I think of him when I cannot let discuss it with someone like with whom I discuss everything. So, I'm not really sure (sighs) if I should be thinking in terms of what I want and who is going to make me happy or who I'm most compatible with because... I'm not sure if I should think like that or not.

THERAPIST: Think like what? [00:04:15]

CLIENT: Like, make a choice as to whether, you know, Chris is not going to change, he is who he is. His work is everything for him and he's not going to invest that much time in romance. So even if that is a priority for me, is it a priority for me? I don't know. (nervous chuckle) I mean, the thing that was discussed is like Chris represents good work ethics and he's all about working and he's told me that life is all about work, it should be all about work if you want to make a difference, if you want to achieve something, and if you set those high standards for yourself. And I tried living with that, you know, but I got burned out, which is not to say that that's a fault in his ethics. It's just the way I deal with it as my emotional baggage. I was not prepared to handle all those rejections earlier this year, when I had a breakdown. If I just had a bit more strength, I wouldn't have... (sighs) [00:05:39]

I feel like it's not right of me to expect that, you know, my boyfriend should have been there to see me through that. I think that's just not I shouldn't have a boyfriend because of that, you know? I should have like what adults do. They have significant others who are, I don't know, like for romance, for having a child with him, you know, paying less tax, but not for -

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Now, don't like married people get a bigger tax break?

THERAPIST: It depends on your tax bracket. Sometimes married people, if they file jointly, actually pay more taxes.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: But that's not neither here nor there. That's not that's like sort of a very anti-romantic view, don't you think?

CLIENT: I was trying to be funny. (nervous chuckle) But I mean to say like these are adult things, like adults think that way and they do probably get married and one of the perks for some people is to save money. [00:06:49]

THERAPIST: Well right, because it's about sort of the practicality of being an adult and being responsible together.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, if you have to live together obviously, you might want to think about getting married and having more money.

THERAPIST: Children are particularly good tax brackets, tax breaks.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's not a reason to have children though. (laughs)

THERAPIST: It's still more expensive to have a child. You do not save enough money on your taxes to compensate for the money you spend on a child.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, exactly. But yeah, that's what I thought a boyfriend should be for. Not for like just leaning on them so much, like I used to, you know? (whispers) I don't know. Yeah. (pause) I'm not really sure what how to take this decision or how to say what my priorities are, from what they should be, depending on where I want to be in life. (sighs) I'm just kind of stuck. [00:08:14]

THERAPIST: Well the thing is, even if you made a verbal commitment, you haven't made an internal commitment.

CLIENT: To Chris?

THERAPIST: To anyone but to Chris too, for sure. You haven't made like an internal, this is what I want and this is what I'm going to do.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You're deeply ambivalent about it.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's weird, like... (pause) I mean, I like him and, you know, I see all his merits, I see the faults, but it's just like he I mean... So, I saw this film Une Femme Mari�e by Godard this weekend. I don't know if you've seen it.

THERAPIST: Mm-mm.

CLIENT: It's (chuckles) It's about this French woman and she's married and she has a lover, so it's just about her decision between choosing between the two men. Her husband is very paternal, he like beats her, but just you know, like not not affectionately but yeah, he is paternalistic, but you know, they have an intimate relationship. He has a child from his earlier marriage and she looks after him pretty much like a mother. And her affair, the affairs she's having is with this artist, he's an actor, and like in the end, I couldn't I have to watch it again, because I did not understand whether she made a choice in the end or didn't, but she gets pregnant and she doesn't even know who the father is. She's asking the doctor, you know, does is pleasure an indication of who the father could be, you know. But yeah, I guess, I don't know if he leaves it open or not, so I just was seeing several shades of me in that character, although she is a lot more she's actually able to please the two men, whereas in my case, I am not. But yeah, like I've always been very squeamish about sex and I don't know why. I guess it's my upbringing and then seeing with my dad, who was very, very sexual I guess, but I wasn't aware of it until I grew up and learned that he would sleep around a lot and the same trouble with my mother. [00:11:11]

But yeah, so I was very squeamish but then my boyfriend in college, he and I were part of this church that looks down upon having sex before marriage very strongly, and every single time, we were very attracted to each other when we were young, you know all that. So we, we were very intimate and at every single occasion, we would end up just like really feeling very, very guilty, like we would both cry and ask God for forgiveness and we're such sinners and this and that. So we did everything but have sex and now I'm looking back and smacking my head, like why didn't we do it, you know? It would be so much easier now, like I would be in a much more healthier place. But that relationship ended because it seemed like that's all we did. We didn't have much in common. He was into cars and racing and he was an engineer and I was rediscovering, or discovering what I liked, you know, literature and intellectual people, and that's how I met Chris and he was completely on the other end of the spectrum where we just had intellectual conversations all the time, and not so much intimate. We were intimate in the beginning of our relationship but like as the years went by, I guess I found myself less and less interested in that aspect of things, (sighs) to the point that, you know, we didn't even we completely stopped talking about whether we wanted to have sex or not and he says that it seemed it wasn't important to me and I say the same thing. [00:13:16]

And then I met [Victor?] and it was just completely like, he's very, very sexual it seems. And the reason why he threw me out is that he said because, you know, I'm sexually suppressed and he cannot deal with that, and he's not satisfied or whatever, so. It was a big blow to my whatever, you know, my ego, but...

THERAPIST: That's mean spirited.

CLIENT: Yeah, it is, but it just made me feel, like the intensity with which I would desire him is completely like not at the same level as the intensity. There's only I wouldn't say intensity when I think of Chris. I think of words like loyalty and affection and friendship and commitment. Those are very blah words, you know, when I think of them.

THERAPIST: They're yawners. [00:14:26]

CLIENT: (chuckles) Yes. But, you know, when I think of Victor, I just think of so much, like, just like an animal passion, because that's he brought that side out of me and I think of latching on and I think of really desiring, not just my but not. I shouldn't say just, I should say not lose my intellectual side but definitely from my emotional side and for my body, I feel like that's a no-no, you know? That's people that are saying that that's the path of self-destruction perhaps. Yeah, so like that's the reason why I would not be able to like if you know, Chris would say he would marry me, I would like mm-hmm. (chuckles) You know? [00:15:28]

THERAPIST: So what's the question?

CLIENT: What question?

THERAPIST: Well, so you started with a question, right? I guess the question is specifically, should you go along with Chris's suggestion to go to couple's therapy, and then the larger question, what should you do.

CLIENT: Do I want to go?

THERAPIST: Well, that was one question right, that he asked you, so you were sort of asking me what I thought about it. And then you were asking a larger question just about your relationship with him in general, what to do.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But it sounds like you've already answered your question.

CLIENT: I did? What was the answer?

THERAPIST: Well, you said if Chris asked you to marry him or if you think about marrying him, you were like eh.

CLIENT: Yeah, but I would be throwing away everything. I'm not sure if that's a good idea.

THERAPIST: And what's in the everything?

CLIENT: A life of significance. I feel like he has a very bright future and he's very lucky. That's what I feel, I feel like if I'm with him, I would be able to, you know, cash in on that. You know, like through him, I've met so many interesting people, I feel like I have a standing. Even though I feel like I can I'm seeing if I can make that standing on my own, you know like of being a struggling artist and having, you know like I mean, I know I might come across as like a social climber, but I don't think I am quite that, because I come from a family that is irrespectable and well-to-do. Not my parents, because of my dad, you know like we grew up not with much money at all. We were not even middle class, but my mom's brothers are well-to-do. So I feel like I claim them as my family, and I feel like, you know, they went to Columbia and MSU and they're good private schools. I feel like I'm not that much of a social climber. If I can make these things on my own and maybe I don't need Chris's assistance in making my mark on like having a presence, having an identity. I don't need to be just his I'm definitely not. I don't answer to, you know Chris's girlfriend. (nervous chuckle) [00:18:18]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I feel like I'm starting to make something of myself, even though it might be a bachelors. I'm certainly not going to get two PhDs like he has but, you know, that's my if I can go somewhere, that will be something I did for myself.

THERAPIST: This is a very different voice I'm hearing.

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm not possessed am I? (laughs)

THERAPIST: That is a very interesting association. What would you or who would you be possessed by if you're possessed?

CLIENT: I don't know, someone strong, Indira Gandhi. (laughs) No, not quite, she was a dictator. But no, I just I mean this is something that Chris has told me already, like yourself, just think once you get success, you will be able to say that that's all your own, then you have such great odds and everything. So that makes me feel strong but... I lost the thread. [00:19:43]

It's like yeah, I feel like I could make what I want out of Chris, by myself, but then I feel like, how great would it be if we would combine our forces as it were. Yeah, that we're in Nepal, where I was helping him with interviews. I feel like that's the kind of work I want to do. But then again (chuckles) this year, when we were in Nepal, he and I went to the same people we interviewed, but we went with another friend of ours, a mutual friend, she's a woman. So then again it's like I don't need to be his girlfriend to do that. It's all very confusing. I think I've confused you. [00:20:45]

THERAPIST: No. I'm less confused than you because I see both sides of the conflict. For you, you're in the conflict and it feels confusing because you can't see what you want or how thing go together.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You're not confusing me.

CLIENT: So that's the things that I want from Chris, I feel I could acquire on my own. So then, do I have different priorities now, to look for in a relationship? I don't know.

THERAPIST: Right. I mean that's one of the things that's confusing to you, what you ultimately want out of a relationship, what purpose you want it to serve in your life and at times, when you feel worst about yourself, when you think of a relationship as access; access to different things that you can't access on your own. And then, when you're feeling better about yourself, then it's sort of like I'm not sure what I want from a relationship. [00:21:48]

CLIENT: Yeah. See, that's the reason why even though Victor did so many things that, I don't want to say are horrible. I feel like he got me to a place of strength. It's weird but it's true. I'm in therapy because he suggested it. (inaudible) do, I'm not sure if he did. Just the idea that I should not even you know, it's absurd to even think that my boyfriend would see me through a mental breakdown, is absurd, because of, you know, Victor is just like, I think of him as so strong and I want to be strong like him. And I think he operates from that assumption that for him, relationship really, you know like perhaps intimacy and sharing beautiful things and that's it. And I think we can say he's wrong there, wrong there, that a relationship should be about commitment. It should not be about it should be monogamous, this and that or whatever, you know that's I'm not going to judge him about this but yeah, so I'm wondering, should I be like that. Should my priorities be the same as his? Would I be a better person? Would I be a better artist, if I think that way, if I operate that way, if I don't think of Chris as a crutch, you know? Yeah, sometimes I even think that maybe I should break up with him, if finally, that is possible, and just date. Maybe that's what I want. But then I get sad, you know, about not seeing him. [00:24:09]

So, I do see what you're saying, that when I'm feeling better about myself, I actually distance from Chris, and when I'm feeling worse about myself, I cling onto him. Although I'm sure I'm sure I'd miss him or more of the positive words, like I would want to be in a relationship with him. Yeah, that's something to figure out. If I'm in a better place, will I still want him? That's what I'm trying to figure out.

THERAPIST: I actually said something slightly different. I said when you feel badly about yourself, you think of relationships as access.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you thought about that way about Victor too at times, that he gave you access to beautiful things that you couldn't otherwise do on your own. So, I wasn't making that kind of specifically about Chris. I was just claiming what you see in a relationship. I do think that you feel that there are other values to your relationship with Chris beyond him giving you access, but I was sort of focusing on that part a relationship for you. [00:25:19]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, no you're right. I do see that.

THERAPIST: You felt that very strongly with Victor, that he had a beautiful apartment and he just gave you access to a beautiful world that you couldn't do on your own.

CLIENT: Yeah, I do. I do remember feeling that way and probably, I do still feel that way. I have all these associations that I'm trying to disassociate, like certain music and films and stuff. But I feel like I could have some of that on my own. It's nice to have, to share it with someone. (pause) I just feel like I'm becoming a type and I am Bridget Jones, except with a lot more complications. Victor isn't exactly Daniel Cleaver. You've seen the movie? [00:26:35]

THERAPIST: I have. It was a long time ago. I mean, it was at least six or seven years ago now.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: There was Colin Firth was in it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And who was the other one? He was the exciting guy.

CLIENT: Yeah, what's his name? The guy in Four Weddings and a Funeral.

THERAPIST: Oh, gosh, I know who you're talking about.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I can't believe I can't remember his name.

CLIENT: Yeah. I can't think of his name right now.

THERAPIST: He was married to some model. So how would you be like Bridget Jones?

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean like Chris is Mark Darcy, the Colin Firth, the boring, steady guy, except he's so good looking. (laughs)

THERAPIST: He's an attractive guy. Colin Firth is a handsome man.

CLIENT: Yeah. And, you know, Daniel Cleaver is very sexy, animalistic, completely unpredictable, exciting and a total douchebag. So... that's... yeah, there I am. [00:27:51]

THERAPIST: I mean, I think that part of the problem is you see these two types of men as sort of bifurcated, like there's this type and there's this type.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's hard for you to imagine that you could get a blend.

CLIENT: I know. I want to put them in a blender. (laughs)

THERAPIST: That's interesting. I send a blend and you thought about putting them in a blender, which is very different, right? A blender chops things up and reconstitutes them. Blending is just kind of having...

CLIENT: Yeah, no, I definitely want to do something even more violent.

THERAPIST: That's right, right, because a blender has a very violent connotation.

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm really struggling for so long that I was -

THERAPIST: That you want to chop them up.

CLIENT: I don't mean to get violent but, yeah. I know that there's there could be a blend of the two, but I don't know about finding that third person. What are the chances that they will find me?

THERAPIST: So, why not? [00:28:59]

CLIENT: Again, you know like, I don't know how to ask you this. It's true, like I have at the end of the day, I come with huge emotional baggage and there's my mom to think about and again, it's very unfair to Chris but, you know, I feel like at some level I'm with him because I feel so afraid that no one else will take this on, you know. Not that I'm going to ask them to live with my mom and I. I don't know if that will happen in the future or not. I just feel so stressed. I still feel very, very conscious about not coming from a good family. I don't know if people care about that.

THERAPIST: Well, you care about that. [00:29:59]

CLIENT: Yeah, because I'm conscious, I'm embarrassed about that. (pause) That's why I feel like I should change the situation or see it in a different light on my own, before making any kind of commitment to anyone, even to Chris. I have to stop seeing my mother as the weakest point of my existence. (pause) [00:31:07]

So, I feel like everything will be on hold until that happens perhaps and even sex will be on hold, just because I just feel so inadequate as I think about this for too long. Just moving away is not going to be like an answer to the situation, like moving away from my mom. I don't know, is that really the root cause of stuff? [00:32:09]

THERAPIST: The root cause of what stuff?

CLIENT: I mean, am I that tied to her, that her happiness, her situation in life determines so many of my things, like whether I can my ability to have intercourse, or my inability I guess? You know? Isn't it? Am I just like this gigantic for no reason because I'm scared?

THERAPIST: Scared of what?

CLIENT: I don't know. Well, like I think of other people I know and I just, when I think of them, I just think of them. I don't think oh yeah, her mom, her parents. They're just purely them. And when I think of myself, I think of and my mother, you know? And I feel like people associate that with me, like I meet people, after several months, and they're like oh, say hi to your mom for me and I'm like wait a second, when did they meet my mother? Okay, yeah, so I invited them over for dinner and my mom cooked. You know, I live with my mom. So that's my introduction perhaps, that stays in people's minds. So maybe I am more tied to my mother than other people are, and thinking that way maybe kind of vandalizes me in my own head. I guess that makes me feel not as much like an adult as I could or should, you know? There's no reason to. I mean, like older people who take care of their parents. I don't know. I wonder about if that's the thing that's going on.

[PAUSE: 00:34:42 to 00:36:00]

CLIENT: So, I have no answer.

THERAPIST: You were quiet for a minute.

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess I ran out of steam. (inaudible).

THERAPIST: Did you feel tired?

CLIENT: Yeah. Of the same things. (pause) Do I make Victor out to be someone a lot greater than what he is, do you think?

THERAPIST: Probably. What do you think? [00:37:02]

CLIENT: I don't know, like I always I feel like people are upset when I give him more credit, you know? People think I'm either stupid or so weak, that I cannot see that he treated me badly and then just completely stop thinking of him and move on, you know?

THERAPIST: That I think you think he's better or greater than he is doesn't mean I think you're being stupid and you should move on. Those two are not the same thing.

CLIENT: Yeah? Why? (laughs)

THERAPIST: How are those two things the same thing?

CLIENT: Yeah. I feel they are and I feel other people do.

THERAPIST: Maybe you feel that way.

CLIENT: Yeah, I just feel like people are like, you know, he treated me badly, you know stop talking about him, move on, he's not like even you said that he's not even in the picture. [00:38:11]

THERAPIST: Yes, but that's not the same as just stop talking about him, move on.

CLIENT: I don't know, like I said, I feel like I got a lot of positive things from him, so.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: That's why I keep thinking about him and like thinking that he was judging me and I should do things this way. I should not fall apart. I should not be meek.

THERAPIST: Well, in a really adaptive sense, kids really need to idealize their parents in order to, you know, help them go forward in life, develop confidence, to create values and ideals, and you didn't have much opportunity to do that, because there was so much messiness and complications in your family. So what I see you trying to do is draw on that from other people, you know, and so the way you're describing Victor at times, even if he also makes you feel really badly about yourself, which is not insignificant, but that you do feel like you derive or did feel like you derived strength and kind of ideals and aspirations for yourself, like he really elicited that in you. And that's a large part of your attachment. [00:39:49]

CLIENT: Yeah. Like yesterday, when he and I were talking, I just kind of told him that the reason why I like Victor and still I'm thinking about him is not that we had great intimacy. It's probably that, that's probably the pull, but what I treasure about him are just these things; that he's strong and he's able to make a beautiful life for himself, by himself. It's not just lust. It's just associations, like that's what I associate with him, and I see what you're saying, that I idealize him like a child would idealize a parent.

THERAPIST: Well, you made the association to feeling at times like he's like your dad, right? So I mean, you made that, that there is this him being big and him being strong. [00:40:53]

CLIENT: Yeah. And being I feel angry. I think it's anger, Victor gives me a lot of anger. I cannot associate the same things with Chris. I don't know if it was conscious or unconscious, but I was thinking of Chris as my mom and Victor as my dad. (laughs)

THERAPIST: How is Chris your mom?

CLIENT: I don't know he cares, he's very caring, he's very sweet. I want to say effeminate but I wouldn't say feminine. He lets me be the boss, so kind of like from his wardrobe to what he's eating or how he's enjoying himself. I oversee that, you know? [00:42:10]

THERAPIST: You also at times feel like you're tied to him like a brick, like you're tied to your mother, and that you can't get loose from.

CLIENT: Yeah. That, you know, being in a relationship, having been for several years. I wonder if that maybe that sometimes, like my mom keeps telling me sex is the glue between two people, and since Chris and I don't have that glue, we just have this verbal and emotional commitment, that's why it feels like a brick or that's why I feel I'm attached to him without the natural glue.

THERAPIST: Your mom expresses that too, that sex is the glue?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Interesting. I wouldn't have associated that with her.

CLIENT: Yeah, I wouldn't either, I didn't either. It's surprising, but she was the one who kind of pushed me. Not pushed me but when Victor and I were seeing each other, she knew all about it and she was like, yeah, go for it, while you're getting it, you know? Who knows when you'll have romance in your life again. (laughs)

THERAPIST: We're going to need to stop for today, so I will see you on Wednesday at 9:00.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: And I'll bring a check for you for I'll just credit you through Wednesday, with a co-pay, because you overpaid me, right, because the insurance kicked in. [00:44:07]

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I'll bring a check for you that will deduct your co-pay, but give you back what you paid for me for six or seven sessions.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay? Is that good?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So I will see you on Wednesday.

CLIENT: Yeah, see you.

END TRANSCRIPT