TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in. (Pause)

CLIENT: So Mondays it's 10:15?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Okay. I thought it was 10:00 for some reason (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Oh, no, 10:15.

CLIENT: [I'll remember that] (ph). (Pause) Let's see. [0:00:52] I was thinking about what you said the previous time about (pause), I think, idealizing people, but I was wondering, like, I guess that is some... that can be nice and comforting, but it can also... it leads to problems, right, if you idealize friends and then if they mess up, then that can... I mean, why would someone want to be idealized? They might find it very restricting, I guess? I don't know. Maybe, I'm wondering if, for example, my mom idealizes me, and then I might feel too tied to her image of me and too afraid to make mistakes. And when I do make mistakes I feel doubly bad, I guess, for letting her down, I guess? I don't know. [0:02:14] (Pause)

THERAPIST: So you imagine that the other person would feel pressure to live up to your expectations.

CLIENT: I suppose, yeah. I mean, maybe that's what I did with Victor (sp?), and maybe he sensed it and didn't want to have that, you know? Yeah, I don't know (chuckling). [0:02:59] (Pause) I don't think I idealize Chris (sp?). I don't know, do you think I idealize him?

THERAPIST: You might (ph).

CLIENT: I do?

THERAPIST: [I think so] (ph).

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: How are you feeling you don't?

CLIENT: Well, because I see it as mistakes, and I get mad (chuckling), so... [0:03:59] I do maybe idealize them like, if he's very intelligent and everything. But I also see his fault at the same time, and... yeah. I'm not sure if I idealize them (chuckling). I'm confused now. (Pause) Do you think he's right for me, or if that's the right question to ask?

THERAPIST: What does that mean?

CLIENT: I don't know. We keep fighting, and it really upsets me. I mean, he's able to work, but I'm not. And I cannot afford to even pause for, like, a day. I have so many deadlines and so much to do. [0:05:06]

THERAPIST: Are you in contact with him a lot?

CLIENT: With who?

THERAPIST: Victor.

CLIENT: No, Chris, Chris, sorry.

THERAPIST: Chris.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Is that who you're talking about idealizing?

CLIENT: I was talking about both.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: (Laughing) Sorry, I keep switching. I said first that I did idealize Victor and ignored his faults. But then I asked you if you think I idealize Chris.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah, I would change my answer.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't idealize him.

THERAPIST: It seems like you idealize parts of him.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, but... yes, that's what I said because I can see his faults.

THERAPIST: But not like Victor.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. And then I asked you if you think Chris is right for me (chuckling).

THERAPIST: I see. I was confused. [0:05:58]

CLIENT: Yeah, I keep switching between the two like that (chuckling). It's what is in my mind, so... (Pause) So do you think Chris is right, or should I rephrase the question?

THERAPIST: Well, I guess that implicit in the question is that I would know what's right for you.

CLIENT: Well, just as, I guess, an impartial, unbiased person who has perhaps a good overview of what's going on, you know (chuckling)? So doesn't get bogged down in the details like I would because I'm so close to the situation, so... (Pause) He and I keep fighting, so it's not, I don't know... I don't seem to get anywhere. [0:07:03] And people tell us that, you know, you need to take a break from each other, because anyone would say that who knows what's happened. I mean, [Chris and I] (ph) recognize] that we're both like, yeah, if it were any other couple, they would have broken up long ago, so it's not... I mean, we know that we're unable to take this decision, so...

THERAPIST: What do you guys fight about?

CLIENT: Mostly the physical stuff, yeah. Like, if it works, then it's fine, but if it doesn't work then Chris is all... it becomes an existential question for him, like, oh, you know, we shouldn't be together. [0:08:04] I don't find you attractive anymore, I guess. That's a problem. And then I'm like, wait, but you did when it worked, you know? And then, like, the thing that we haven't actually been able to have sex makes it even worse in his mind. I don't know, I'm just really confused. I feel like I don't have to... like, I can have a sexless relationship. Sometimes I feel like that, other times I don't. I don't know (chuckling). Sometimes I feel like I maybe shouldn't even be in a relationship because it takes so much away from stuff that I really want to do. [0:09:00] But then I get bored (chuckling) and afraid that nothing good is happening to me. I have [no one] (ph), you know? But I feel like that in the crowd, too, so (chuckling, sniffing)... so I'm not really sure. (Pause) [0:09:58] But you agree that, like, any other couple would have walked away from each other long ago, right?

THERAPIST: When did I agree to that?

CLIENT: No, I'm just asking, would you agree, or...?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Why is that inevitable?

CLIENT: Inevitable?

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, you said any other couple. It sounds like that would be inevitable for other couples.

CLIENT: We just assume that others are stronger than we are (chuckling). Other people are stronger, more rational, or...

THERAPIST: People stay in really, really awful relationships, really awful.

CLIENT: Yeah, but why? Like, for kids (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: I think there are very complicated psychological reasons.

CLIENT: And ours is not that bad, right (chuckling)? You don't think? [0:10:58]

THERAPIST: It seems like you really almost want me to tell you what to do.

CLIENT: Yeah (chuckling). I mean, you don't have to tell me what to do but help me sort through the mess

(chuckling).

THERAPIST: Oh, I'll certainly help you sort through, and I certainly want to.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But that (ph) question of, you know, is Chris right for me, is not helping you sort through the mess. It's me giving you a response to what you should do, in a sense. I mean, obviously if I said, you know, Chris is right for you, then I guess that would guide you to a particular path.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Do you... is it sort of a relief if someone else made the decision, or do you feel not confident in your own abilities to make a decision?

CLIENT: (Sniffing) I don't know. (Pause) [0:11:56] I'm sure I don't feel confident, but I just don't want... I don't know. (Pause) Yeah, I mean, I don't think it's so much about the decision as it is about desiring the larger perspective, you know? And someone else's opinion would probably say something like, you know, I've seen you guys together, and this is what people say. But you don't, you know, look like a couple. Or you look more like good friends. Or... and this is what people say all the time anyways. [0:13:02] Or someone to (ph) say, well, you know, I know you very well, and you seem to work best when you have this, this, and this in your life but not that. Or, you know, you guys should do this, like, such as, I don't know... take a break or whatever, and see how it goes. Or... yeah, I don't know (chuckling). I guess that's what I'm looking for (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: Advice.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, ultimately, I know I'll make my own decision, but I would... if there isn't I'll do it. I doubt it (chuckling). We've dragged it on for so long, but... [0:14:03] (Pause) (Sniffing) Like for me unfortunately I go from one extreme to the other a lot, and that makes things difficult for everyone around me (chuckling). And I don't have a very good grasp on reality, so... [0:15:08] (Pause)

THERAPIST: What does that mean?

CLIENT: Like I'll say stuff like, oh, I can live without X or Y or just make claims like that and... without ever pausing and thinking, is this really true? You know, let me sit down and look at my past behavior and see if that's true, if that holds true, but I don't do that. And I make no plans, so... (Pause) But... [0:15:57] (Pause) Like I cannot even decide whether I find Chris attractive or not. I mean, is it that difficult to decide? Shouldn't it be like a simple yes or no (chuckling)? Isn't it for other people, like, you're either attracted to someone or you're not (chuckling)? (Pause)

THERAPIST: It's hard to answer your questions.

CLIENT: Why (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: Because you sort of put every other person in a category of relatively normal...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And then you... (Pause)

CLIENT: Is that not normal (laughing)? I don't know. I assume other people probably think like that, too. [0:17:01] (Pause) Well, like, okay, so if we don't [want to] (ph) know about other people, then, at least for me, I'll say it's hard for me to decide whether I find Chris attractive or not, that's all.

(Phone ringing)

CLIENT: (Chuckling) But I guess it makes sense because he's no longer just, like, a photo on a page, you know? I've known him for so long, so obviously there's a lot of affection, etc. (Pause) [0:17:58] Do you think I go from one extreme to the other? Have you noticed that in me, or am I just making that up (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: I can try to answer that, but a lot of your questions are going in a direction, it's like you're (ph)... I want to try to help sort of understand what you're looking for in those questions. It's kind of like your statement that you don't have a grasp on reality. Like, maybe you feel that you're so, kind of, immersed in your own thoughts and feelings, it's hard to see out of that for a different kind of perspective. [0:18:55]

CLIENT: Probably. Yeah, that's right (chuckling). How do I snap out of...? I try to, but it's hard.

THERAPIST: Yeah, well, it's hard to snap out of your thoughts and feelings.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Why do you want to snap out of them?

CLIENT: I just feel they can become damaging at some point. They just disconnect me from other people and their realities, you know? So...

THERAPIST: But snapping out of it could disconnect you from your reality because those are part of your reality. [0:19:53]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And ultimately they can guide you to what you really need.

CLIENT: It hasn't happened yet (laughing).

THERAPIST: Because they feel so tangled up.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You haven't found the right brush yet, the right conditioner (ph).

CLIENT: Yeah. Do you think I'll ever find it (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: I think you can get certainly some of this disentangled. That's why you're here.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause)

THERAPIST: And it seems like this issue of making a decision about Chris is particularly pressing these days.

CLIENT: I'm totally okay with just coasting along, you know? [0:20:58] But then, if he gets intimate and I don't deliver or whatever, then he becomes very kind of angry, and... yeah, and then he's all about, should we be together or not? And I'm like, whoa, you know? Another guy who's ready to throw me out (chuckling).

THERAPIST: That's what it feels like?

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, it feels like, great, I'm sexually suppressed [as Victor said] (ph), so I have to suffer for things that are not my fault. That's why I felt so strongly... I thought it was unjust of him to have suggested that and thrown me out because of that reason, because I feel like, but that's not my fault, you know? It's not my fault that I'm suppressed, you know? Shouldn't I get a chance with someone like him, who can bring it out or whatever, a normal relationship, you know? [0:22:05] So I felt like he was being very unjust (chuckling). But that's in the past, but... (Pause) [0:22:58] I mean, it seems like a big deal that suddenly I have become unattractive in a certain situation to Chris. So I feel very worried (chuckling), and then, on the one hand, I'm like, okay, this is worrying. I should focus on being attractive or whatever. And not just physically, like, whatever that makes a person attractive. And then, on the other hand, I'm like, why the hell should I bother when it's too much work, you know? Maybe I should just be single because I really don't... I mean, I've wasted so many years of my life, I feel, just worrying about him and making sure he's happy in every way and (chuckling)... it's too much work. [0:24:02] (Pause) [0:24:58] (Pause) [0:25:57] I'm sort of lost in my thoughts (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Yeah? Where did you go?

CLIENT: It's really frustrating, this whole thing, so... I just feel like I'm at the point where I just want to tell him that, you know, I don't want to see you any more (chuckling). [0:27:06] That's something that would work for more than 12 hours (chuckling). So... (Pause) Like, why is it so difficult to have sex? I mean, is that normal? Again, you don't have to answer that one, but why is it so difficult (chuckling)? [0:28:01]

THERAPIST: That's a good question.

CLIENT: Chris thinks that we care about each other too much to want to hurt each other (chuckling).

THERAPIST: What does sex have to do with hurting?

CLIENT: Well, just the actual physical pain that is going... I'm going to feel, you know? So...

THERAPIST: Based on...?

CLIENT: Based on what?

THERAPIST: Why would you feel pain?

CLIENT: Don't you feel pain when you do it, at least for the first time?

THERAPIST: For the first time, maybe some. I don't know. Everybody's different.

CLIENT: Yeah. I know I would (chuckling), so...

THERAPIST: How do you know? [0:28:55]

CLIENT: Because we've tried, and it doesn't work.

THERAPIST: What doesn't work?

CLIENT: I feel pain, and he stops (chuckling). So... yeah, I mean... (Pause) And he says it's okay and that it's been okay all these years, but I doubt that very much because that probably means that he is dissatisfied, right, even though he might not say that he is?

THERAPIST: Are you scared?

CLIENT: Of what?

THERAPIST: Sex.

CLIENT: Yeah (chuckling).

THERAPIST: What are you scared of? [0:30:00]

CLIENT: Of the pain (chuckling), of wanting to give... like, subject myself to it (chuckling) for Chris's sake, you know? But I feel like [if it has] (ph) to be any guy, it shouldn't be Chris because we've been together for so long, and he's done so much for me. So I should feel that gratitude and let him, but...

THERAPIST: Do you feel aroused when you're passionate with him or intimate with him?

CLIENT: I didn't use to that much, but now I'm starting to. Like, it didn't use to work until he started really stimulating me. But with Victor it was much better because... I don't know why. [0:31:05] But with Chris as of late I've started to feel that a little bit more. Not all the time, but... (Sniffing) (Pause) Yeah, I don't know. Like, Saturday night he took me out to dinner, and then he bought me flowers as well. So all that should have made me feel like, I don't know, something (chuckling). [0:31:57] But it didn't, and maybe I ate too much food (laughing), so I felt conscious of my body. But I don't know. Yeah. And he, I guess, was expecting something, and it didn't work. So he just was like... he lost interest. He was like, fine, just go to bed. But even though he might not say that he is upset or disappointed, I know he feels it, and it comes across in his behavior. And that really worries me. It shouldn't. I try not to think about it, but my mind goes back there. And I feel anxious, and I want to make it go away or make it better as quickly as I can. [0:32:59] (Pause)

And, like, with Victor... but Chris might say that was just like for... the initial days of any relationship are going to be... you're going to be attracted to each other no matter what. You don't have to do anything. Maybe that is true, but he didn't have to do anything, I don't think. He didn't even take me out to dinner once (laughing). We went out once, but we split the bill. Yeah, and no flowers. I would buy him so many things. He didn't buy me much of anything. In fact on my birthday, he said he didn't feel like doing anything. [0:33:56] He's like, I didn't do anything for Chris's birthday, so I don't feel like doing anything for your birthday. And I was very, very upset, but I somehow let that go. But...

THERAPIST: How did you let it go?

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: How did you let it go? Sounds like it was hurtful.

CLIENT: Yeah, but I couldn't do anything, right? I mean, he didn't... Chris was around, first of all, so I couldn't just see Victor. And, yeah, I couldn't do anything about it (chuckling), so I had no choice. But physically with him, it was always like I felt I was right there all the time. Just the way he would pay attention to me, you know? I just felt wanted and loved. [0:34:56] But not so much with Chris, he's very different. He's very cerebral (chuckling), and I have to be really, like... yeah, think of very creative ways and really make it special. I feel like I have to do a lot of the work (chuckling). But with Victor I didn't have to do much of anything, so... and I'm just stating experience with Victor not because I desire it any more. It's just another reference point in my head, and I'm like, hmm, you know? What's going on with Chris and me? [0:35:56] (Pause) I'm just not making any progress (chuckling). (Pause) [0:37:00] (Pause) [0:38:00]

THERAPIST: Where did you go again?

CLIENT: I was... I just feel like I'm running around in circles (chuckling). I just feel ridiculous because I'm so afraid to take any decision. It's just weird. I used to be a lot less afraid when I was younger. Now obviously, so... I tried to break up with Chris so many times (chuckling). Even as early as, like, when we just met, and I had so many doubts. And one time I was feeling very definite that I wanted to break up. [0:39:02] And this was right after I'd met his parents and felt really scared by his mom. But then he came... like, he drove all the way and was, in (ph) talking to my mom, talking to me, like, no, don't punish me for the way that my mom is (chuckling), all that, and... (Pause) (Sniffing) [0:40:01]

THERAPIST: When you feel like you're running around in circles, do you... would you rather not talk about it?

CLIENT: Yeah (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: I don't know, I just feel that I'm going to bore you (chuckling).

THERAPIST: No (ph).

CLIENT: And bore myself.

THERAPIST: What's boring about it?

CLIENT: Well, just repeating the same thing over and over again. [0:40:57] (Pause) Yeah, I don't know if there's a resolution, if I'll ever find it by myself (chuckling). (Pause)

THERAPIST: Does it feel like you'd have to find it by yourself?

CLIENT: Well, if I find it by myself, then I won't have anyone else to blame for it (chuckling). [0:41:57] (Pause)

THERAPIST: It's true, the responsibility of your decisions does fall on your shoulders.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Does that feel bad?

CLIENT: No, not bad, just [having a feeling] (ph) I'll be able to live with it, you know? I don't know why this happened (chuckling). (Pause) [0:43:02] (Chuckling) Basically, I don't know what I want. I think that's the problem. I'm just not getting any closer to knowing myself.

THERAPIST: Really? You haven't expressed that in past sessions.

CLIENT: Yeah? Well, I mean, like I said, just going from one extreme to the other of thinking, oh, I can be completely asexual, to thinking, no, absolutely not, you know? [0:44:00] (Chuckling)

THERAPIST: You're conflicted. These are all parts of you.

CLIENT: Yeah. But how can one person have so many opposing parts (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: It's normal.

CLIENT: (Chuckling) Are you teasing me now?

THERAPIST: I'm teasing you a little, and I also believe that.

CLIENT: But then who you are, how do you come up with one concrete definition that doesn't pull you apart (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: Why do you have to be one thing?

CLIENT: Well, how can one person be asexual as well as not asexual (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: A person can have conflicting thoughts about it. [0:44:57] And probably through this process you'll find that one part of the conflict represents you more than the other. The conflict doesn't go away. But it may be clearer what represents you more, and it may be clearer what decisions you want to make based on it.

CLIENT: Okay, I'm looking forward to that (chuckling).

THERAPIST: I wonder if it goes back to your feeling of being trapped.

CLIENT: What does?

THERAPIST: Like this feeling that there's this conflict, and you're kind of just mired in it. There's no way out.

CLIENT: Yeah, perhaps. If you give me one example I might be able to think about it better.

THERAPIST: Well, this feeling you're both sexual and you're asexual. And you're trapped in this conflict, and there's no solution, there's no resolution. It's just paralyzing. [0:46:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. Maybe if I take a decision, that might limit me, put me in a box, you know?

THERAPIST: Being put in a box doesn't sound like a good thing. Is it?

CLIENT: No, that's what I'm saying...

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: So maybe I...

THERAPIST: You're forcing... you're sort of trapping yourself by forcing a decision.

CLIENT: Yeah, because taking a decision would trap me further, so I want to not take the decision. Like, the decision would be the trap. But then I already feel trapped because I haven't been able to take the decision (chuckling). Yeah.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 0:46:46)

CLIENT: (Sniffing) There's too many traps (chuckling). [0:46:56] I guess that's what I'm scared of, like, if I move, one trap door will close on me (chuckling). So I just stay right here, stay put.

THERAPIST: Like a mouse trap where it cuts your leg or something?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Cut my tail (laughing). So...

THERAPIST: Actually (ph) we're going to need to stop for today, okay?

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I will see you on Wednesday at 9:00.

CLIENT: Okay (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Okay?

CLIENT: Sounds good. Thank you.

THERAPIST: Okay, take care.

CLIENT: You too. [0:47:47]

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