TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi. Come on in. You can always feel free to come in when the door is open. (pause)

CLIENT: Congratulations.

THERAPIST: On?

CLIENT: Another four years.

THERAPIST: Congratulations to me not to us? [00:01:03]

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. I mean us. (laughs) I didn't poach.

THERAPIST: [ ] (inaudible at 00:01:12)

CLIENT: Yes, it is.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I would think so.

CLIENT: (sighs) For what it's worth. (laughs) (sighs) Sorry, I have a little bit of allergy. My nose runs when it's cold outside. I was thinking about what we talked about last time. Unfortunately there is a very big flip side (chuckles) to the very nice and simple injunction. [00:02:04] But people like to be with someone with whom they have an emotional connection and I said, "What if I can be my own emotional sucker and not be with someone with whom I have an emotional connection be with someone like Chris?" I was thinking about that and for Chris, he might not be there for me emotionally and his way of dealing with issues is running, doing a lot of things running implies running away from something. So I might be running away and it might, in the end, not be such a good idea to keep running instead of sitting down and taking care of dealing with the issue. [00:03:06] If you are running, maybe while you're running you achieve a lot of things. Maybe you get a lot done. Maybe you help people, so in the long run (chuckles) running might not be such a bad idea. What happened with Victor, I think, was after like several months I reread some of the e-mails we exchanged and I had come to lean on him too much, so that is probably not a good idea in any relationship. [00:03:57] I just can't figure out why leaned on him so much. Was it because he was available emotionally or he responded to me emotionally in a way that Chris didn't and I liked that and I kept going back for it? That could have been what happened, but I think perhaps what happened was that (pause) when I realized that he wasn't in it for a relationship, then I panicked and ran and he got very angry and I wanted to abuse him and not lose him. I kept sharing too much with him just to make him stay. I don't know if that makes sense, but I wonder if that's what happened. [00:04:58] Regardless, in theory and in practice it's probably a good idea not to lean on anyone so much. Are you seeing what I'm saying? I think I'm being very abstract?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Oh. Okay. (chuckles) So this is the deal is someone like Chris right for me with whom I might not have much emotional connection? It's very cut and dried and it's all about working because I will not have any chance of abusing him emotionally; whereas someone with whom I have an emotional connection I might run too much of a danger of abusing them.

THERAPIST: Abusing him by relying on him? [00:05:58]

CLIENT: Yeah. I was reading some of the e-mails and I was so embarrassed to see that I was just spewing, spewing, spewing and that filter should have been there not telling him stuff; I shouldn't have told him stuff. He kept saying, "What scares me is the imbalance in you. Your past keeps informing your present and that's not a good idea. I've wasted too much of my life being someone like that and I don't want to be with someone like that. So you should do therapy," and this and that.

THERAPIST: So he's saying the same thing. He's saying that he can't do that. You can't have your past inform your present and he's saying his past informs his present because his past has happened. He can't do that again. It's the same thing. [00:07:02]

CLIENT: Yeah, you're right. (chuckles) It's true that he dumped everything on me and then just left. After he leaves I'm like, "I'm never contacting this guy never again." (laughs) But a few hours later . . . again . . . (laughs) But, he was so nice and this and that. (chuckles) (pause) Yeah. (pause) [00:08:03] I love thinking about when I started dating him because at that time I was, basically, running away. My parents had just divorced and it was a huge, big fight. I told you about this; I think I might have. It had to do with my dad wanting to buy a house and he wanted me to sign the loan papers. I hadn't even graduated and he wanted me to take on a $200,000 loan so he could have a house. My boyfriend at that time went with me and he said, "No. Don't do this." I said no and he just kind of freaked out. [00:08:57]

Then a few months later my boyfriend at the time moved away to another state and by that time I had just grown away from him, out of love with him. At that time I just wanted to reconnect with Nepal and I wanted to have an intellectual life. That's how I met Chris and I didn't want to talk about my past or anything, I just wanted to think of interesting things and projects. But now I'm like, "Okay, I guess Victor is right. I haven't dealt with my past." (laughs) [00:09:57] (long pause) [00:10:51] I was talking about this with my mom and her take on it was like, "Oh, yeah. Absolutely. You've not grown up with any siblings or any family, no cousins. You don't keep in touch with them now either. Obviously your need for emotional connection is going to be strong. It's going to inform you." I mean "define you."

THERAPIST: Inform you and define you are two different things.

CLIENT: Yeah, I know. I was incorrect. (laughs) I don't know if she said "define", she said, "Yeah, you haven't grown up." I hadn't even realized that. Maybe it was in the way back of my head, but I was like why do I have this emotional wound? Why can't I take care of myself and just be with someone who is just we don't talk about emotional stuff. (chuckles) [00:11:57] Yesterday I was talking to Chris, "In therapy we talked about this and, as I told you, it's like a daily disappointment not having you be there emotionally." He listened for a bit and then, very quickly he changed the subject. He was like, "So, what did you talk about with this professor?" (chuckles) That was really shrewd to talk about work. That's the thing that connects us.. It's not so bad, but my mom saying, You want everything from your boyfriend," or not you want, like one must get everything from one's boyfriend because I was asking her, "Can't I have different people for different needs?" I could have friends with whom I can have an emotional connection. I don't have to get that from my boyfriend. She was like, "No, you want basically everything from your boyfriend. (laughs) [00:13:06]

THERAPIST: What does she get from her boyfriend?

CLIENT: She doesn't have a boyfriend.

THERAPIST: Exactly, so I'm not sure I understand the advice.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think she feels badly about my childhood, that there weren't that many people around. If I tell her that I have an emotional wound she's going to say, "Oh, yeah. That's because that's how your childhood was," whereas I'm just going to be, "Why do I have this emotional . . ? I have to take care of it myself right now," instead of remembering that there's a reason for it.

THERAPIST: One of the fundamental questions you ask is "do I want too much?" or "do I need too much?" [00:14:02]

CLIENT: Yeah. I've been told that I'm insatiable. People feel like they cannot please me or satisfy me or whatever. (chuckles) (pause) I do feel like I should take care of a lot of things by myself and I shouldn't look to other people for everything. (chuckles) (pause) [00:15:09] I'm not really sure what's okay to ask for and what' it's not okay to ask for. I t seems like my basic thing. For a long time if I was going somewhere say I'm walking around in Trenton and I forget the address or the directions to get to a certain place, I would just call Chris, who would be in D.C., most likely in front of a computer, and he would just give me the directions. Earlier he said that I'd done this a few times. He wasn't at a computer and I got very upset. (laughs) [00:16:00] Now I see that it's completely ridiculous for me to have gotten upset and even more ridiculous that I didn't figure out the directions on my own. (pause)

THERAPIST: I also hear that story as a sort of mixed serving as a way to orient you in the world and it seems like you very much feel that way that he provides you with a structure and a set of values and an orientation, which at times I think feels very noble to you. His orientation is very noble. At other times it feels very limiting, as if you're depriving yourself of something essential or at least valuable. [00:16:59]

CLIENT: I'm depriving myself when?

THERAPIST: I think at times, like when you say, "Am I never going to be able to have that feeling of being emotionally connected or emotionally connected the way I want with him," at those times it feels very depriving. At other times it feels very orienting.

CLIENT: Perceptive observations. I do feel very much oriented, but I am (pause) . . . Like in what way does he provide orientation?

THERAPIST: In so many ways: A model for how one could live their lives, discipline, aspiration, diligence, hard work, particular things you like, like a partner to go to book signings with or book parties with. A particular kind of life which, in many ways, feels very appealing. And then in some ways it feels emotionally stifling.

CLIENT: How is it emotionally stifling?

THERAPIST: What do you think? You were talking about it just the other day.

CLIENT: Yeah, I know. I just wanted to be sure. I sometimes can't hear myself, in the sense that it's so confusing. I was just wondering what you heard.

THERAPIST: And that was because I was referring to something we had recently talked about. Were you not sure of what I was referring to or did it just feel confusing what you were . . .

CLIENT: Both. (laughs)

THERAPIST: I was talking specifically to your saying that there are many things actually just even what you were saying before. [00:18:58] It sounded like on some level you were trying to engage with Chris around this feeling you have or even the statement you make about feeling like every day is a disappointment and you were looking for something from him maybe him to get pissed off. Maybe some sort of engagement around that and you felt he was just like, "So how about the Yankees?" Right? You felt like he changed the topic. It sounds like that was somewhat disappointing to you, that you wanted to have engagement around that. That's what I mean by emotionally stifling.

CLIENT: What I mean is I'm confused because when he said, "What did the professor say?"

THERAPIST: How about those Yankees?

CLIENT: Yeah, I was both relieved and disappointed. That's the thing. That's the confusion. I'm so grateful that he says to me, "This is more important. Set your eyes on the prize. This is who you are, who you should be, why I will like you and others will like you that you are pursuing this ambition of yours, but when you talk about other stuff you get whiny. You lean on me too much. You're like this blob without a backbone and that's not pretty," and I very much want to be the first woman and not the second one. (chuckles) I'm relieved that he's showing me what I should be, but at the same time a little disappointed because I wish there were more shades. I wish there was more variety in his behavior, more color. I see a lack of color in him, in his responses. [00:21:08] (pause)

I'm wondering what exactly can I provide myself and what I cannot. Can I provide orientation to myself but not colors? I try to do both. I try to provide color and orientation. Right now I feel like I've learned a lot from him. I'm not saying I've created these walls around myself, this orientation, this map, all by myself. [00:22:03] I'm saying it's his contribution for sure., but I feel like now that I know what I'm working on now that I know the books to read, the videos to watch, the work that needs to be done, I feel more oriented and I feel like all that structure is my own work. I've had a few conversations with him, so that's helpful. He's bought me some books, but I feel like I've done the whole thing on my own, which isn't to say that I can keep on doing it on my own. I would miss it if it was gone. I would miss that orientation. I don't know. It feels stifling. [00:23:10]

THERAPIST: Maybe that's the wrong word if it doesn't resonate with you.

CLIENT: The picture you were painting, I could see myself in this maze; lots and lots of walls that make up a maze and me actually losing orientating, even though I'm being oriented. (laughs) It's weird. And feeling stifled by the walls.

THERAPIST: What's disorienting about a maze is you lose the big picture. You can only see what's right in front of you. You can't see the big picture, but what you're saying is that the big picture is overwhelming and you like the fact that Chris says, "Just look at this." [00:24:03]

CLIENT: Yeah, I do. I feel like the big picture is too much for me. It's funny, when I'm working on something I'm most harried when I work on the big picture, like the plot of things and narrowing down the focus of the story, for example, is when I'm feeling most inept or anxious, like "Let's get this over with." I'm actually in a tree pulling my hair out. But when I'm happiest is when I'm doing the details, when I'm in a scene and I'm describing the character or place. That's when I'm having a ball of a time. (laughs) [00:24:57]

I definitely love the idea of him throwing me a string and saying, "No. You just need to get from here to there." But that doesn't mean that I don't criticize him when he does that. (laughs) Yesterday he said something like, "Yeah, you just go right from A to B. Don't look at anything else." (laughs) I'm conscious of that, as well. But it's funny when you said that he provides orientation, the picture in my head was me in a maze; (laughs) only knowing how to get from here to there, not how I'm going to get out. It's funny because I felt both comforted and oriented and disoriented. It's really strange because I'm oriented for the time being, but overall I'm lost. The option is to be in a sea, an ocean, or to be in a maze. (laughs) [00:26:06] Are there no other options? What other orientations are there? If I say to you "orientation", what picture do you see in your head?

THERAPIST: A compass.

CLIENT: Okay, so just directions?

THERAPIST: Right. You're associating a structure or a lack of structure. I'm associating essentially a type of map. You're associating to a form of something or a lack of form. I'm associating to a tool orient, which is a compass. A compass is a tool. You're not in a compass like you're in a maze or in an ocean. You're just using it as a tool. [00:26:57]

CLIENT: I would never think of a compass. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: So maybe, to stretch the metaphor, maybe therapy is the compass.

CLIENT: Okay. (laughs)

THERAPIST: The tool to orient you.

CLIENT: I would never think of the compass and I would not be comfortable using it, which is sad. (chuckles) I don't know if it's sad.

THERAPIST: Say more about the sad part.

CLIENT: Again, I feel like I'm not grown up or able enough to make use of this tool that I feel like many people would know how to use and adults possess. I feel like that is in the tool kit of adulthood that I didn't get. (chuckles) That makes me feel sad that this is yet another thing that I don't have. (pause) [00:28:01] Why I feel like such a small fly in my imagination, a tiny thing in a maze, instead of an adult with a compass those are two completely different pictures, right? Maybe I should be that person with the compass. I'm very afraid of getting lost, though, not knowing how to use it. (long pause) [00:29:36] Do you think it's because I've never been out of the relationship? I don't know, because I've been in relationships since I was 18. There are only two, but they span a long time. I associate people who are not in relationships, that they feel more adult-like. They're so used to doing everything on their own for themselves that they have a stronger sense of self. (pause) [00:30:35]

It's funny that I feel this way even though I can see that I did things, like I have a job and I was able to support my family and I can fill out my own tax form and my mom's. (sniggers) I know how to drive. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: I was going to ask you that how does being in a relationship mean that you're not doing things on your own?

CLIENT: I don't know. (laughs) I feel like a blob again. I feel like certain things, even though I may be thinking about them, that I'm leaning on Chris. Even though I may not really [ ] (inaudible at 00:31:27) in a long time, it makes sense. I feel like this child that is sitting and everything is being brought to her, even though that's not the case. [00:31:45] (pause)

THERAPIST: It's hard for you to conceive of even though this is what's happening two adults who are in a relationship together; that a relationship can be comprised of two adults

CLIENT: I want to think that way. I know that is the goal. I feel like that is how it's supposed to be. That is what other people do and that is what I'm supposed to do, but why do you think it's hard for me to conceive of as a "me and Chris" or like . . ? [00:32:22]

THERAPIST: I think even more generally. I think for you part of the reason you say, "I've been in a relationship so I'm not sure if I can know how to be on my own," is because it's hard for you to conceive of yourself as an adult relationship, not being on your own implies that you're a child in a relationship and not an adult because you do things on your own as an adult. It doesn't matter if you're with someone or not, you're still paying your taxes and making your own decisions and all this other stuff. [00:32:50]

CLIENT: Why is it hard for me?

THERAPIST: Because you feel like a child a lot of the time. You feel disempowered. Sometimes you want to be a child because children get to be taken care of. I think it's a lot of different things. You feel helpless.

CLIENT: Am I childlike in my demeanor? I mean I know you only know me . . . (laughs)

THERAPIST: You've mentioned that many times before, that either you feel or you've gotten feedback that you're childlike. [00:33:32]

CLIENT: (pause) I would say I don't know how to be an adult. I don't know if I am an adult. I don't know what adults do, even though I'm surrounded by them. (laughs) (pause) [00:34:26] Yeah, I'm confused. I don't know. Is it just a state of mind, being an adult?

THERAPIST: That's an interesting question. What do you think?

CLIENT: It must be. I have all the equipment, like the physical equipment. (laughs) I have all the outer signs, the age and the fact that I vote and pay taxes and stuff. (pause) [00:35:33] I have been living away from my mom for several months now. (laughs) But not successfully because I'm mostly at Chris's place (laughs). (pause) I wonder if I should go on one of those survivortype trips, absolutely alone, struggling with nature for a month or so. Maybe that will make me feel like an adult (laughs), no one to do anything for me. (pause) [00:36:40] When I do things for myself they don't register. I do them like these are daily motions I go through without even thinking about them.

THERAPIST: Would you like me to answer?

CLIENT: I'm just surprised. Sure, if you want to answer. (laughs)

THERAPIST: It's sort of like do you feel this way? I can't tell you how you feel because I'm not inside knowing how you feel. I was thinking more so that you have a way of not taking credit for very interesting thoughts. You sort of pose them in the form of a question and there is a way in which you're not taking ownership of it, credit for it. Even the idea you ask if being an adult is a state of mind, which I though was a very interesting kind of idea, but you don't present it as much as an idea as like, "I don't know. What do you think?" It's almost like you're not saying, "Wow. Here is my idea." Does that make sense? [00:37:51]

CLIENT: I don't know. (laughs) I guess I'm unsure of what I'm thinking and I'm seeking approval, which I feel like is very childlike. I feel like adults are unabashedly adults and they're like, "This is who I am. Nice to meet you." (laughs)

THERAPIST: It sounds like that's the kind of adult that you want to be, that kind of person.

CLIENT: I do, but I don't want to be pushy or anything. I guess at some level I'm scared of being an adult. I feel like adults can cause a lot of harm, a lot of damage, so I don't want to be in that position. I want to be childlike and innocent, so not only do I not take credit for what I'm thinking, I'm also several places removed from a position of harm. It's very attractive, the idea of being like my mom or being like my dad, like in the sense that they were adults. When I was a child they were definitely adults, because the gap was just so huge, but now that I'm their age when I was thinking of them as adults I see them as weird, fallen people who did a lot of (laughs) brought me a lot of grief. I don't want to be on that pedestal talking down to a child, breaking their heart, you know? [00:39:57] I feel like I could pay taxes, I could make my own money, I could buy my own things, but I'm just not going to tell myself that I'm doing all of those things. I'm just going to keep that side of me secret and just continue to think that I'm just a child who needs to pay taxes. (laughs)

THERAPIST: If those things made you feel like an adult, how would that be harmful?

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: You said, "I don't want to think of myself as an adult because it could be harmful." How are those things harmful?

CLIENT: I don't know. I'll have to think about that. (pause) [00:41:02] Maybe I'm afraid I'll have too much power, like I won't be vulnerable and I won't feel connected to something that's more beautiful. I feel I'm cultivating the childlike person maybe for my work because I come from a child's point of view.

THERAPIST: Do you?

CLIENT: Yeah. That seems to work a lot when you're focusing on war or violence.

THERAPIST: Do you always write from a child's point of view?

CLIENT: Not always, but I like it. [00:42:03] It's something that I could snap in and out of maybe I could. (chuckles) (pause) Like with Victor, he's an adult, for sure. No doubt about it, but he can cause so much harm. He's in a bubble and if I invade that bubble too many times he gets upset. He got upset and he threw me out. I don't want to throw anyone out, you know? I don't want to be that angry. I don't want to be that hurtful. People can lean on me. My mom has and Chris has leaned on me, but that's just because I'm a big child they can lean on, but not an adult because, if I'm an adult, I'd be like, "Hey, you're invading my space. I have needs." [00:43:12]

THERAPIST: And children don't?

CLIENT: No. (chuckles) They're happy. They have no concept of their own space. You put them in any situation and they're happy.

THERAPIST: Really? Do you believe what you're saying?

CLIENT: I feel like I was that way, yeah. I didn't have too many toys of my own or anything, but I didn't have a concept of "this is mine and that is someone else's" well, I did, but not . . .

THERAPIST: Kids have a very strong concept of that, very strong.

CLIENT: Well I didn't grow up with other kids. I grew up with me and my mom. (chuckles) [00:43:54]

THERAPIST: I think what you're saying is there is a sort of romanticized idea of childhood and you're imagining a sort of safe, protected space where these kinds of troubles and difficulties don't exist; they're not impinging on that pristine space and that you're calling that "childhood," even though that's not really anybody's childhood. But you're calling that "childhood" as a kind of concept or archetype.

CLIENT: So it's not childhood, but it's a romanticized childhood?

THERAPIST: Yeah, and it's serving some function for you to think about it this way, something that maybe is more peaceful not war, but more peaceful. We need to stop for today, so I will see you on Monday then.

CLIENT: Yes. 10:15.

THERAPIST: You got it.

CLIENT: Okay. Have a nice weekend.

THERAPIST: Thank you so much.

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