TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: So where are you today?

CLIENT: I'm a little bit of everywhere. But I've been working a lot this week. And it turns out that they are going to cut back our hours by hiring the other person. Did I tell... I don't remember if I told you. No.

THERAPIST: No. That's new. That's good though, right? No. Oh.

CLIENT: Sort of. Not really. I mean, they're hiring a new... so they're hiring two new people which means that... so if they hired one person, it'd be great. That would be perfect. But they're hiring another full-time person which means that we're all going to get significant cuts to our... because they're…

THERAPIST: So too much of... because you've been working too much. But this is going to be too much of a cut.

CLIENT: Right. Yea, so now I'm like I don't know looking for part-time jobs around the side because we're going to be working two to three shifts a week. And I just worked four in a row over Thanksgiving. And then I had two days off. And now I'm working two or three in a row this week. And so I've been working a lot which is nice and not nice. [0:01:03] I mean, I'm getting really close to everyone in the ER which makes it kind of harder to think about leaving.

But... so I sent them an e-mail and I was like, "Hey, I really don't think that it's necessary to hire somebody." And I explained to them and then they were like, "OK. Well, we're going to go ahead with it anyway." And I was like, "OK. Well, who are you planning on taking the hours from? Are you getting rid of someone? What is your plan here?" And they were like, "No, we just think that it would be better for flexibility for the company." And I was like, "Well, I mean, I can see how that would be good for company but that's really crappy for us because we don't get enough hours." And they're like, "OK. Well, we're still going to hire that person." And I was like, "Well, I'm going to reconsider my continued employment here because this is not ethical." That's kind of where I left it.

And now I'm reconsidering because... I mean, I don't know. I feel like it's time. [0:02:00] I've been to doing this for over a year now a year and two months or something so that's been kind of enough. But I want to stay there till May. And now which means I'll have to train the new person. I don't really know what I'm doing actually. So…

THERAPIST: Take a deep breath and think about what... notice what feelings come up when you let yourself just sit quietly for a moment without thinking about it. What feelings come up?

CLIENT: I'm frustrated and I'm angry about the whole... at least the job situation. But it feels like it's two different jobs because when I'm at work I love it. I love the people there. I love the nursing staff and the doctors and stuff have gotten really close with everyone there. But my bosses who I don't get to see ever actually I've never... I don't think I've ever met them I hate dealing with them. I really dislike doing that. So it's kind of weird. [0:03:00] It's like a... it's like two different jobs almost.

So I don't know. I might just tough it out. I also mentioned that they didn't pay us very much which made me feel good. At least I said all that I wanted to say. So even if they didn't give me everything, I felt like I let them know. So that was good, I think. Yea, that's pretty much... that's…

THERAPIST: I know they didn't... they're not changing their plans based on what you said. But did you feel like they heard what you said?

CLIENT: No. I mean, they never... I wrote them a long e-mail. And I even... I did the calculations for them. I listed everyone who was working and then I was like, okay, that's a total of what was it like 184 hours. There's 168 hours in a week. I don't remember. Actually I don't know off the top of my head. But it's 160-something. [0:04:00] And then depending on two or three people, we ended up with up to 208 hours to fit into 168, I think, hour work week.

And so I did all of that and then I looked up the average pay for my position. For example, in this area which was $32,000 I'm making $20,000. And I was like, um. (chuckling) I would say that that's a comparable position. But they didn't care. Well, but I did all that research. And so it was like this huge, long thing. And then they responded with maybe two sentences of like, "OK. Well, we're going to do what we want to do anyway." (chuckling) I was like, "OK. Well, whatever." So it's been... it's just really frustrating dealing with them.

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: I dislike it. It's not something that I've been good at anyway before dealing with administration type of things. I think it's like this with huge authority figure thing. [0:05:03] It's the man. And I mean, it's... it always turns into this me versus them sort of thing which might be more my fault than theirs. But…

THERAPIST: What do you think creates the antagonism that you feel?

CLIENT: I don't know. Probably me, right? I don't know. I mean... I don't know. That's just how I'm rigged, I guess. I don't really do well with people tell... like it's not people telling me what to do because professors tell you what to do all the time.

THERAPIST: And that feels fine.

CLIENT: Right. I don't know. I think it's like the lack of trust because when you're in school, you can do whatever you want. You don't have to go to class. You don't have to... like all these things. But I do it anyway because I want to. You know what I mean? [0:06:01]

But at work it's like I don't feel like I'm trusted. I make a recommendation to hire someone over somebody else. They hire the person that I recommended. So I interview two people, right? I think I told you this. So then they hire the person that I recommended after I really fought them on it. And then that person quit halfway through training. And then they went back and hired the person I was adamantly against on hiring.

And so that felt really frustrating. It was like why can't we just... are there... is there nobody else who is interested in the position that can we not just interview somebody else? I don't know. It just... it feels like I'm not... I'm there. And they are in the mid-west or wherever. It makes sense to trust the person who's actually there. But that doesn't seem like they're doing that very much.

THERAPIST: And it seems like you feel like there's different... that you're not working toward the same goal which maybe what... part of what fuels the antagonism. [0:07:02] I mean, with…

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: …professors, there's this goal that you're both working toward of shared learning. But it seems like with your bosses, you don't feel like the same goal is there.

CLIENT: Yea, that's true. I thought about what you said last time. You said like, "Well, of course companies make money." I was like, "Well, yea. OK." Or want to make money. "But you can get something out of it too like in the process." And I was like, well, that's a good way to think about it. So I thought about it and I was like well, this whole over-hiring and overstaffing, that's really great for the company. But that's really terrible for us. That's a way in which the company is really sucking at. And you know what I mean? It could be better. And so I framed it in like really... like these e-mails were actually really... I was very pleased with myself at how positive and nice and constructive they were except for the last one. It was like, well, OK. Well...

THERAPIST: You'd sort of given up at that point.

CLIENT: Yea. But the rest of them were like, "OK. Well, let's try to work it through." [0:08:00] And it was I think better than I have been so that... I don't know. But it makes me feel better. I've told one of the nurses that I'm really good friends with. I told her kind of what is going on. And she was like, "Oh my God. That's ridiculous that they're doing that." And then…

THERAPIST: Oh, a really nice validation.

CLIENT: Yea. I was like oh my God. I'm not crazy. You know what I mean? Think... you're like, OK. All right, at least I got... at least I'm not crazy for thinking that this is unfair. So that was at least…

THERAPIST: Yea, I mean, even though you're not getting all of the results that you want. You didn't get them to change their minds or the way that they are kind of running things. It sounds like you did get some of what you want in terms of what you could control. You were able to craft some e-mails that were maybe worded in a way that could have given opportunity give you a chance that it was going to work out in a better way.

CLIENT: Sure, yea. [0:09:01]

THERAPIST: And you've done a really good job, it sounds like, forming relationships with your... the colleagues that are present. I think it's really hard to have bosses that are half a country away.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: It's... I mean, you don't have any chance for building... it's really hard to build a relationship over e-mail.

CLIENT: Right, yea.

THERAPIST: It's really hard to build a relationship.

CLIENT: Or house (ph) calls or whatever.

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: Yea. And I mean, I... from some of the other nursing staff, I've heard that this has been going on with the previous people that have left for the same reason. So at least it makes me feel like I'm not... like it's OK that I'm a little upset about these things.

THERAPIST: Yea. That it's... I mean, it sounds like it's one of the problems in the fact that you're working in the hospital but you're not managed or hired by the hospital.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Or am I... it's managed by an outside company. So there's this tension.

CLIENT: Yea. So then... so that's kind of... that's the weird thing. The other thing was... oh, I've been dating this person, Jordan (ph). I think I told you about it a little bit. [0:10:08]

THERAPIST: You told me... we... I got to talk about the first date with you.

CLIENT: OK. Well, now we're at three. (chuckling) I feel kind of bad because my work schedule is so crazy that we can see each other I don't know maybe like once, maybe twice a week. Plus Thanksgiving was in the middle so it had been awhile. But I don't... I've been feeling kind of weird about it. So we didn't see each other over the week of Thanksgiving or whatever. And I was like, well, maybe I'm just not meant to date. (chuckling) Maybe I'm just not meant to…

THERAPIST: What is feeling weird? What were you feeling?

CLIENT: I don't know. It's just a lot of different things. I don't know. It's weird. It's... so he's like a really nice person. He's really sweet and very respectful. And really easy to talk to and fun and so he's just like a really nice guy. But I don't know. [0:11:02]

I mean, I definitely... I see people come into the ER, right? And somebody is having a heart attack. And the wife is right there. And then there's this... they were like the cutest couple ever. And the guy... she's going to go home because he's going to stay in for a couple of hours of testing or something like that. And he tells her... he goes, "OK. Well, I want you to do me a favor." And she goes, "OK, what?" And he goes, "Call the ER and let them know that you got home safe because it's 5:00 in the morning." And everyone was like that's the cutest thing ever. They were really cute. I can't imagine ever having that. (chuckling) I mean, like…

THERAPIST: With anyone or with…

CLIENT: Yea. With... like that's why I'm not really thinking that it's necessarily Jordan (ph) in particular. It's really I don't know in general.

THERAPIST: Why couldn't you have that?

CLIENT: I don't know. I mean, I think it's hard to... even now just like the little things. [0:12:03] I don't mind planning for stuff. But it's definitely something more to do. So it makes me feel a little busier which I don't really want. But it's OK because I want to hang out with him, whatever. But it's sort of like I don't know it's like... it's almost like I have to... I don't know. This like relying thing relying on somebody else thing I don't... I'm not really too keen on that. (chuckling) That makes me feel really uncomfortable. I don't really ever want to get the point to where I need somebody else for something. Or maybe I do. I don't know. I'm feeling confused, I think. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: So it's not that couldn't have that. But you're a little bit fearful of what it might be like to have that level of sort of interdependence.

CLIENT: Yea. But I mean, I don't even know if I'm capable of that, right? [0:13:04] But yea, fearful definitely. I think that's scary. That's really scary.

THERAPIST: You haven't had the opportunity before to try it out.

CLIENT: Yea, that's right. (chuckling) I mean, but I've never had that in any relationship really. I've never relied on my parents growing up. I never really... I don't rely on them now. I don't... there's a heavy air conditioner in my room. I'll lift it. I don't really... that's hard for me, I think.

THERAPIST: Well, I wonder how it got that way. Have you ever had anybody that was safe to rely on?

CLIENT: I... like family?

THERAPIST: Anyone?

CLIENT: I mean, I guess my mom, sort of.

THERAPIST: Sort of. In what way is yes and what way is no? [0:14:00]

CLIENT: Well, no because I've never really told her a lot of things. (chuckling) I don't really... she knows part of me.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: In that part to... yea.

THERAPIST: But there were some things that you got the message that it wasn't OK to share.

CLIENT: Right, but the things that I do share, like totally. You know what I mean? I definitely feel like I can... I always feel like I have to call her. I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: That's OK.

CLIENT: I always feel like I have to call her when I'm making some sort of a large life decision. And I was telling her, "Hey mom, we're playing programs in New York. What do you think?" And she's like, "Well, it kind of sounds like you're just telling me." (chuckling) And I was like, "OK. Well, what do you think?" (chuckling) So in that situation, it was... it's good. And I kind of need for her tell me that it's OK but unconditionally, no. [0:15:01] I don't think so. I don't know. I'm pretty self-sufficient and I like that. I don't know.

THERAPIST: And you're afraid that being in a relationship you would lose that?

CLIENT: Yea, definitely. I mean, yea. Is that... I don't know. Maybe that's just me being judgmental about relationships. But I mean, I look at Julia (ph) and that's kind of what happened. And then she fell apart when they broke up. And I don't want to do that. I mean, I really don't.

THERAPIST: Have you ever seen a relationship work differently than that?

CLIENT: I don't know. What do you mean? Like…

THERAPIST: Well, it sounds like part of... it sounds like you worry that you would lose your ability to be self-sufficient and independent if you were to be in a relationship. [0:16:01] And I'm wondering if it's possible to maintain your competence and your independence in a relationship. That it doesn't have to be that you have a relationship or you have independence. But is it possible to be independent and have a relationship?

CLIENT: So it wouldn't be like mutually exclusive.

THERAPIST: That's a very self-succinct way of saying it. Yes. You said it very well.

CLIENT: (chuckling)

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: But isn't... yea, I don't know. I don't think I have ever seen that because... I don't know. My brother's wife my sister-in-law stopped working as soon as they got married. And they have kids and that's what they do. And I don't know. I mean, that sound really hard. [0:17:01] I don't know. That sounds really hard. I could never do that. I really couldn't.

THERAPIST: You couldn't do the stop working thing or you couldn't be the... be independent or self-sufficient and be in a relationship. Which thing can you do?

CLIENT: (chuckling) I couldn't be like my sister-in-law.

THERAPIST: OK.

CLIENT: And I don't judge her for it. I just know that I can't be like that. Yea.

THERAPIST: And I think that's OK. I think that it's possible to be sort of a whole independent person and be in a relationship. So I mean, I will share with you that's a bias I have. I think that what independence is maybe different for different people. So it sounds like... I mean, your sister-in-law I don't know about the other things but just looking at the model of so she's a stay-at-home mom. And her husband works and that's how their family works. So clearly she's not financially independent.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But that doesn't mean that she's not necessarily a self-sufficient person. [0:18:02]

CLIENT: That's true.

THERAPIST: She's... her work is unpaid but she's maybe very competently doing a lot of things.

CLIENT: Right, yea.

THERAPIST: She also could be a stay-at-home mom that's completely incompetent. I don't think that's defined by whether or not you have a job a paid job outside the home. The independence that I think that you're craving is a sense of sort of self-competence really. And for some that is defined by having a job identity and being able to be financially independent. That it gives you a sense of freedom that maybe you don't have otherwise.

CLIENT: Yea, I don't know. I guess I don't know what that would mean for me. I just... even just... I think even just scheduling dates and stuff. I was like, whoa. I have to make time for this. And then like…

THERAPIST: So that felt like an infringement on your…

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: …independence. [0:19:01]

CLIENT: I can't just go home and pass out. And maybe it's because like I started my period yesterday. And I was really having bad cramps and stuff. So I kind of didn't really want to go out. But…

THERAPIST: But you had made this commitment.

CLIENT: Right. But I ended up having a good time and stuff. But yea, it felt... and I know that's so stupid to say, right? Is like, oh, going on dates, you have to schedule them. (chuckling) I'm like, oh, you... that takes time out of your day. That makes sense. But it had been awhile and I think I had kind of…

THERAPIST: Yea, you hadn't had to incorporate somebody else's schedule into your own.

CLIENT: Yea, yea. Exactly, yea, and that was new. I think that kind of scared me even though it's kind of a small thing. And it was just like, whoa.

THERAPIST: Yea. I mean, logistically it's small. But I wonder if the meaning that you make out of it is really... is not small. Because there's a difference between taking time to schedule something that might not take that long. And the time... the actually amount of time you spent might not have been that large. [0:20:06] But if what... if the meaning that you're attaching to that is losing your freedom, that's a big thing.

CLIENT: Sure. Even though... I mean if you phrase it that way, that does sound a little bit... I mean, it sounds like I'm being melodramatic. But I don't know that that's necessarily... that wasn't my intention. I think the other thing was that it... I feel like I'm starting over again. I haven't really ever had a functional relationship ever. (chuckling) So it's all new to me. I don't know things like he paid for dinner last night and I was like that's weird. I don't know. Why can't we just split it? That's... it makes me feel weird. Or I don't know.

THERAPIST: Well, what would feel comfortable for you? [0:21:00] Why can't you just split it if that feels comfortable?

CLIENT: Because I wouldn't want to make him feel uncomfortable about it and also I didn't want to make a big deal about it either. But I think maybe... if we keep going on dates, that would be like something that would make me feel uncomfortable. I kind of have been avoiding going to dinner as in like let's just go get drinks. Let's get drinks.

THERAPIST: To avoid that who's going to pay for this bigger expense.

CLIENT: Well yea. Well, because he wouldn't let me pay for my drinks and so I…

THERAPIST: So you made the assumption he wasn't going to let you pay for dinner either?

CLIENT: Yea. And so... which was…

THERAPIST: Seemed accurate.

CLIENT: (chuckling) Yea.

THERAPIST: Turned out to be accurate.

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: Did you... what was his... what is his response when you asked to pay for dinner?

CLIENT: He said something like... I said, "Oh I am used to paying for my own dinner." That I would... or something like that. And he's like, "You should go out on more dates." (chuckling) I was like, "OK. Thank you?" [0:22:01] (chuckling) So that was that, kind of. And I was like, "OK. But next time please…" I don't know. I would... I just... I guess I want to toe the line between like I don't want to make it this huge deal. But I also don't want to feel like I'm not contributing. You know what I mean?

THERAPIST: Well, and so... and here's the compromise between you want to take into account what his feelings and wishes are. But you don't want to be silenced and not have your feelings and wishes count too. So I think find your way to be appreciative for his gesture and his feeling. It was... it felt important for him to be able to treat you to dinner and treat you to drinks. And... but it also feels... it sounds... it also feels important for you not to feel like you are being taken care of in that way. That your being... maintaining some independence. It's important. [0:23:01]

So I think there's a way to express your appreciation. And rather than making an issue out... feeling like you're making an issue out of dinner, you can invite him to dinner. Being clear like, "Hey, I appreciated that you took me out. I'd like to reciprocate." So it's not about not letting him have his way. But you also are getting a chance to feel good about treating him and being responsible for part of it.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: I think part of developing a relationship whatever this turns into is figuring out... first you have to figure out do you enjoy his company? That's a really important piece. And can you make rules that work for you guys rather than following... thinking you need to figure out what the rules are and following some set of rules. It's... you need to create what works for the two of you.

CLIENT: That's an interesting... that's a good way to put it, I think. [0:24:00] Because I've been thinking a lot about past relationships over the past few weeks or whatever and I have no basis for comparison. I realize it's almost embarrassing. I'm 24 and I never been on a date before. Not a real date because you don't really date in college.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: You don't go to a place.

THERAPIST: Right. I vaguely I remember.

CLIENT: (chuckling) So…

THERAPIST: I also think there's a difference between dating as a grownup which you are now. And in college you're sort of in that in-between young adult phase. And it is very different. There's a huge group dynamic in college and in grad school. Grad school kind of extends that sort of young adulthood period. Because there's this group dynamic and you have this... the cohort and there is lots of hanging out or studying together or…

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: …just meeting up at a place. And that's kind of taken away in the adult setting because you don't have the set of places where people just end up all the time…

CLIENT: Sure, yea.

THERAPIST: …which tends to happen in kind of communal groups like colleges and grad school. [0:25:04] So things come out more intentional.

CLIENT: Right. Which also translates to a little bit more intense, I think at least for me. There's no like, oh, we're just hanging out because we're friends.

THERAPIST: Right, correct.

CLIENT: It's like this is a date. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: Yea. You have admitted to one another and acknowledged that you are taking time to spend together.

CLIENT: Right, which is new, I think.

THERAPIST: How do you feel when you're actually spending time with him?

CLIENT: I think it's fun. I mean, it's fun. (chuckling) I don't know. I feel like I have a lot of feelings a lot of different feelings because in college I don't know I was just... it was different. And I don't know. [0:26:00] I feel like there's two things happening at the same time. So like on the surface I'm having a lot of fun. And I feel like I'm having a good time which is why I've agreed to go out with him several times. But there are also a lot of negative feelings that happened that it's like, oh, we're doing this again. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: So you have negative feelings about the dating process.

CLIENT: But not…

THERAPIST: But not necessarily the person that you're with.

CLIENT: Right, exactly, yea. So I have positive feelings that's what I was going to say, yea I have positive feelings associated with hanging out with him. But very negative feelings about the whole process or situation. I don't know. So it was weird. I mean, yea.

THERAPIST: What are you afraid of?

CLIENT: I don't know. A lot of things. (chuckling) I mean, it's all new, right? So that's part of it, I think. It's just unfamiliar or it's been a long time. [0:27:01] But I don't know. I mean, I've been hurt really badly before. (chuckling) I mean, I don't want to end up there. So it's hard to let myself kind of really let go or really let myself try and have feelings for him. I'm having a hard time doing that. I don't really feel like I'm letting myself do that again.

THERAPIST: Well, I think it's OK to take your time with him.

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: And to leave things... let them be at a pace that feels comfortable for you. This is stretching for you because it's a situation you haven't placed yourself in for a long time or you haven't found yourself in for a long time. And the associations you have in college are so negative and atypical and that's not how dating usually goes. [0:27:57] So I think allowing yourself to pace it in a way that you get to really focus on what are your feelings about spending time with this person and developing new associations with what dating might mean.

CLIENT: OK.

THERAPIST: You don't have to jump into being in a relationship.

CLIENT: Right, yea.

THERAPIST: You can date.

CLIENT: Yea. And I think sort of navigating that. I think that's why it's not... it doesn't seem... I'm not horrified when I'm with him. You know what I mean? Because I'm like, OK, well, it's a date. We're having dinner. OK.

THERAPIST: Yea. And you can keep it there for a while if that's what's enjoyable. If you're enjoying that and you're allowed to repeat that as many times as you want to.

CLIENT: I also wouldn't... I wouldn't... I just wouldn't want to lead someone along and then be like I'm not... I don't want to do this. So I just want to make sure to be nice too. I don't know. I mean, we just had our first kiss on the third date. So we're pretty... we've been pretty slow. [0:29:04]

THERAPIST: Did that feel safe? Did you enjoy that?

CLIENT: Yea. I mean, I think it was both. I smiled for ten minutes afterwards in the car.

THERAPIST: Good sign.

CLIENT: So it was fun. But then after that I felt like even lonelier than I began with. So... and like throughout it I was like thinking... I was definitely thinking a lot. So I was... and I was like, oh, I remember how to do this. Oh, this is going on for a long time. You know what I mean? But with... like intimately like oh, this is fun. So…

THERAPIST: That sounds very normal.

CLIENT: OK, good. (chuckling) But yea, I think it also brought up a lot of other stuff, too. So I don't know. I mean…

THERAPIST: Do you want to talk about some of the other stuff?

CLIENT: Yea, sure. (chuckling) I don't know. So I never really... so I was with this person sort of for three years intermittently while he was with other people. [0:30:04] Not that it was... I didn't know that at the time. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: And it certainly colors your perception of it…

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: …in retrospect.

CLIENT: Right. And so I don't know. It was just really... it was not very fun. And I mean I had really strong feelings for him. I could not control my (inaudible at 0:30:28) feelings for him which in retrospect is so embarrassing to admit because he's a terrible person. And I don't know. I mean, I think it's so weird to me because... and so I slept around a lot towards the end of college or I guess in the middle. And it was so weird because normally I'm like this pretty strong person who... determined and I'm hard working. I do what I want. [0:31:04]

But when I'm... I don't know when I'm like hooking up with someone or something, I totally shut down. I can't even say anything. I cannot... it's totally... and it's weird because it's like my choice to hook up. I never felt like I cannot or like I... you know what I mean? I hardly ever felt like I didn't want to be there. But I also never felt like I could say anything. It's hard to explain. I literally couldn't say anything. I couldn't open my mouth and move it. You know what I mean? It was like... I don't know.

THERAPIST: What would you have wanted to say in those situations?

CLIENT: I don't know. I mean, like for example, even sometimes like someone would ask like, "Hey is it OK that we have sex?" And I couldn't say yes. (chuckling) [0:31:59] It's like... or no. Or I couldn't say.

THERAPIST: Pretty powerless feeling.

CLIENT: Yea. But I don't even know where it comes from. I couldn't say either. You know what I mean? And so I don't know. I just don't want to feel like that again. But it's not their fault either.

THERAPIST: You can see why being in a relationship would terrify you. Because if being in a relationship mirrored the pattern of those hookups, then you would be voiceless and therefore powerless. And that's a really vulnerable position to be in.

CLIENT: Right. Especially for... I don't... yea. So I don't know.

THERAPIST: It doesn't have to be like that.

CLIENT: Yea. But see, I know that. And like... and I know even when I was hooking up I knew I was like if I say no, that's OK. And they would... this is a nice person. If (inaudible at 0:32:57) before and he's a nice person, if I say no, I know he'll stop or whatever. But even then I couldn't…

THERAPIST: So I wonder what it is about yourself about whatever you were thinking or feeling about yourself that you wouldn't give yourself permission to have a say. Was it that you were silencing yourself? Or did you... because it sounds like, at least in your head, you didn't feel like those people were taking away your power. It sounds like you felt like you were taking away your power.

CLIENT: Yea, yea. And I don't know why. Or maybe I was just embarrassed or... I don't know.

THERAPIST: Possibly. I mean, it's possible that you felt really conflicted about…

CLIENT: Yea, that's true. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: …about being with any one of the people that you hooked up with or…

CLIENT: Yea. [0:34:01] Yea. So I don't know. So that even just kissing last night was weird in that... I mean, I wanted to. But I still had all these thoughts afterwards.

THERAPIST: But if he had asked if it was OK, could you have answered?

CLIENT: I don't know. I hope so. But I don't know.

THERAPIST: That's what we want to kind of check in about as you continue to go... if you continue to go on dates with him. It sounds like you'll have at least one more. One thing for us to pay attention to is, can you have your voice in the process? Are you able to identify what you want? Are you able to talk about what you want?

I mean, it sounds like one thing sort of one test for you would be finding a way to take him out for a drink or for coffee or for dinner or for something and seeing if you can use your voice to get across the message that you would really like to pay for this next date or a next date. [0:35:06] That would be one way of practicing being there using your voice and making your wishes known.

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: These are really all important things of being able to maintain your sense of yourself in a relationship and not being lost into it.

CLIENT: Yea. Yea, I think they do feel related maybe. OK. (pause) (crying) OK, I can say that.

THERAPIST: It's OK with sit with... that's a lot to process.

CLIENT: It's just really embarrassing. I think it's so opposite of who... this person I think I am. So it's like hard to admit out loud. I mean, I know... I mean, I've thought about it in my head so I know it's true. [0:36:00] But…

THERAPIST: Well, I'm glad that you trust me enough to talk about things that feel embarrassing. People are very complex and very rarely straightforward. It's OK to have conflicting parts of yourself. You can be strong and vulnerable at the same time.

CLIENT: I feel like I have extremes.

THERAPIST: And smart and confused. You do. Of course you do. Human beings are really complex individuals. So you do have extremes within you. And they're both right. They're both accurate.

CLIENT: It's hard. It's not easy. OK. (pause) (crying) Oh my God. I just went on three dates and… (chuckling)

THERAPIST: That's pretty big stuff. [0:37:02]

CLIENT: Yea. But I think that maybe all of this is why I was feeling... last week was like maybe I just shouldn't... maybe I'll just focus on my career.

THERAPIST: That would be simpler.

CLIENT: Yea, it would.

THERAPIST: But maybe not as fulfilling.

CLIENT: Maybe, yea. I mean, I was talking to one of the doctors and she's like, "I never want kids. And I don't want kids. And I can't have kids." And she's really happy. She's been married for 20 years or something crazy. Twenty years sounds like a really long time to me. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: It is. Two decades.

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: It's a long time.

CLIENT: Well, she's also kind of young. So they've must have gotten married I don't know 18, 19 or something. But anyway...

THERAPIST: What was talking to her like?

CLIENT: I was nice because we bonded. But it was interesting. [0:38:00] I thought... I mean, and she kind of... somebody else because it was like a group conversation kind of thing somebody else... because all they talk about is their kids. And so for people who don't have kids, it's a little bit out. But now I know everything about their kids. So I'll ask them. Like, "Hey how was that thing that they were doing?" Or you know what I mean?

THERAPIST: That's nice of you.

CLIENT: But... oh, so someone asked her why she didn't want to have kids. And she was like, "Well, I can't have kids. But I also just kind of think that we're like…" What did she say? She was like, "We're like socially programmed to want kids and want to have a family. And we're not complete people without families," or something. And I was like that's really true. It's... at least like when I was growing up that's how it was a lot. People who didn't get married or have families are weird. Or I don't know. [0:39:00] Or if somebody got married and couldn't have kids, it was sad. Or I don't know. And so I don't know. It's interesting to think about.

THERAPIST: Have you had thoughts on this subject separate to this conversation or prior to it?

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Whether you want or don't want kids?

CLIENT: Yea, I don't know. That's a big responsibility. (chuckling) Definitely not now. I don't know. I think I don't know what would be my answer.

THERAPIST: That's a very fair answer.

CLIENT: Because I wouldn't want to have kids unless I absolutely knew that I wanted to have kids and knew that I could provide for them was mature enough to like actually prioritize. It's over myself. I don't know that I could do that right now or anytime soon. (chuckling) So I don't know. I think it sounds... I've sort of thought about it. [0:40:02] It kind of... I can understand planning for a kid because that makes sense. There's a kid coming. And OK well, get a crib or something. (chuckling) But planning for somebody else's existence sounds really hard core to me sounds really emotional and intense. So I'm not dealing with that right now, right? But I don't know, maybe eventually. But I like the idea of not feeling weird to have to have kids.

THERAPIST: Yea, being able to make your own decision about what works for you.

CLIENT: Yea. I really... that sounds really empowering and liberating. So I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yea, it sounds like it's a good thought to keep in mind. Not just for the issue of kids, but a good way to think about how you want to make decisions about a number of things in your life. [0:41:02] Figuring out what is it that you really want and giving yourself permission for those options, just options to be available to you. That you don't need to fit yourself into some prescribed expectation and role.

CLIENT: I think the hard part is recognizing that that's what's happening though. So…

THERAPIST: Well, when you hear yourself ask things like, "I don't know what I'm supposed to be doing right now."

CLIENT: (chuckling)

THERAPIST: That's a phrase I've heard from you. Or, "What should I feel?" When you hear... those, I think, are your... those are sort of your red flags. That you're trying to figure out what's the expectation here and can I mold myself into it? And I think though sometimes those phrases might jump into your head before you recognize what you're feeling. So those are kind of your... those are your cues. When you hear yourself asking someone or asking yourself those things, that's a red flag that I'm trying to figure out what someone else wants from me rather than figuring out what are my options and what do I want? [0:42:05]

And once you know what you want, it's OK to take... to decide that you want to take somebody else's needs into consideration, too. That happens in life. But it's important that you figure out what you want, too. And then you can make decisions that take that into account or that are completely ruled by what you want. But if you don't give yourself a chance to figure out what you want, then you're not... your voice isn't going to be heard.

CLIENT: Right. That made sense. Maybe... yea, maybe I should work on that. Maybe I'll be able to tell people what I want if I figure it out.

THERAPIST: Yea. If you can hear it, then you have a shot of expressing it to someone else. I think you already are working on it. It's not something new you're working on.

CLIENT: Thankfully. I'm a busy person. (chuckling)

THERAPIST: You are. (chuckling) Lots of things going on in [their wants] (ph).

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: Well, let me wrap up on that note. [0:43:02] Are we scheduled for December?

CLIENT: I think so.

THERAPIST: We probably are. I always get nervous that I forgot to do it.

CLIENT: And I'm not sure. But I think that is the case.

THERAPIST: I think I remember discussing your (inaudible at 0:43:18). So yea, I have us for the 11th at 4:20.

CLIENT: Oh, really? Oh. Oh, you know what? Because my calendar died on my phone and then I had to reinstall it. Oh crap, so now I... OK.

THERAPIST: I think that's all I have for us.

CLIENT: Is there... do you have any availability on the Monday before on the 10th? I can…

THERAPIST: Yea.

CLIENT: You do?

THERAPIST: Ooh…

CLIENT: You don't?

THERAPIST: I don't.

CLIENT: That's OK. I'll change the other thing. Not a big deal. I'm just going to…

THERAPIST: I thought I did but then I remembered that I actually need to pick up my kid.

CLIENT: (chuckling) 4:20, OK. [0:44:00]

THERAPIST: That's the whole being responsible for someone else's life.

CLIENT: (chuckling) I heard that's a big part of that.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: OK. And then I'll be back by the 1st. I don't know if you…

THERAPIST: OK. So you're gone the last…

CLIENT: Probably the 16th.

THERAPIST: OK.

CLIENT: …to... through the... I have to work on the 1st. So…

THERAPIST: OK.

CLIENT: So I'll definitely be back by then.

THERAPIST: OK. So we have the 11th and then I will probably not be in on the 1st.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But we can resume our regular schedule on Tuesday the 8th at 4:20…

CLIENT: That sounds great.

THERAPIST: …the following week.

CLIENT: Yea, I know that's a little early but that way we don't get lost in the…

THERAPIST: No, I'd rather have a time when we know we're going to reconnect.

CLIENT: Yea.

THERAPIST: And then I am... I'm going to be in the office Friday the 28th. [0:45:01] So if you get back as... if you're back by then, you can come let me know and we can meet prior to that.

CLIENT: OK. I might be flying the 28th or the 29th.

THERAPIST: OK. All right, so just keep me posted.

CLIENT: Yea, thank you.

END TRANSCRIPT