TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

[no voice until 00:02:06]

THERAPIST: Hi. Come on in.

CLIENT: How are you?

THERAPIST: Fine, thank you.

CLIENT: It's hot today. The weather keeps changing. (long pause) [00:03:38] So what should we talk about today? (long pause) [00:04:35] Do you think that people's interpretations have the power to really change reality in such a way that reality might seem completely different from what it actually is?

THERAPIST: I'm not sure if I understand what you're asking.

CLIENT: The past couple of times we were talking about how I may interpret people's behavior. I just wonder if my interpretation can really have that much power over me that I cannot see the real picture. I feel the answer is yes. (chuckles) It's kind of scare to be so out of touch with reality, to be so wedded or influenced by an impression or interpretation or association that I don't give other interpretations a chance. [00:06:12]

THERAPIST: What feels scary about it?

CLIENT: Just that (pause) would I be missing out on what's real? I might be causing myself and other people unnecessary pain just because I think that they think the worst of me and this and that. [00:07:03] (pause) Mostly I'm afraid that I might be wrong about Chris and I might be missing out on who he really is, if he, indeed, is expansive and fun and my interpretation that he's narrow-minded not marrow-minded as in conservative but just narrow-minded in his thinking. It might make me project too much onto him and not see that he might not be narrow-minded. I force him to be narrow-minded by not encouraging him to be expansive. [00:08:03] (chuckles) I don't know if that makes sense. (long pause) [00:09:27]

THERAPIST: What's preventing you from continuing with that thought?

CLIENT: What thought?

THERAPIST: The thought about how you perceive Chris. Are you hoping that I would say something in response?

CLIENT: Sure, I would like that. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Did your mind go elsewhere?

CLIENT: Not completely in a different direction, but other people who may fear and who I may think they don't like me. (chuckles) That's all. [00:10:05]

THERAPIST: Do you feel like when I don't say something that somehow I'm discouraging you from talking?

CLIENT: No, not all the time. Sometimes I wonder generally, not just here but in other conversations when people don't respond you kind of understand that maybe that thought wasn't interesting, that it was not worth pursuing, so that's a little cue. Here I guess it's a little different.

THERAPIST: How do you see it as different? I agree, but I want to know how you see it as different.

CLIENT: I see your sense that you want me to trust my thinking and kind of explore what I think is important without always looking for a cue from you. [00:11:04] Sometimes I want or wonder if it could be more conversational; I wonder how that would feel.

THERAPIST: What do you imagine it would feel like?

CLIENT: That conversation? I don't know. I feel I would be more engaged (laughs) if it were a conversation. It's more fun to talk to other people than just to talk to yourself. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Does it feel like that's what you're doing, talking to yourself?

CLIENT: Yeah, if I'm just talking a lot then it can, not because you're disinterested, but if you constantly just hear your voice then it could be like that. [00:12:00]

THERAPIST: That I'm not interested?

CLIENT: No that I'm just talking to myself. I feel there's too much of me. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: There's that expression again "too much of me."

CLIENT: Yeah. I'd like to come out of myself, I guess, to experience other people what they're thinking, what they're saying. Then I get very influenced by that and I lose my footing. [00:12:59] I'm constantly struggling with that. I'm constantly like, "Where am I in this? Where am I in this?" I wish I didn't have such a me-centric view. Not all the time. Sometimes I do feel comfortable, but sometimes it's very acute that I feel lost. (chuckles) I guess when I was younger this used to happen a lot.

THERAPIST: How do you mean?

CLIENT: It used to be the case that (pause) like one time, this was very early when I had just met Chris. I think it was in 2004. He and I had just started dating and he took me to his friend's place. [00:14:05] We were having a party and I felt very acutely conscious of being I had never known people like them, people who were students and had since bought a home and they were young and nice and successful and all that. I'd lived a very, very sheltered life; and not just a sheltered life, but like a cloistered life where I didn't really meet that many of my relatives, I didn't have that many friends. [00:14:58] In my early 20's I was at their place and was completely lost. Anything that anyone said . . . I don't know how to describe it except to say that I was very lost and I didn't know what to say. I didn't know how to present myself, how to speak of myself. I guess this problem still exists and Chris picks on me for that. Like we went to his old advisor's place for dinner over the weekend and he had invited many other people, including another graduate student of his and his wife and their two very little babies. In such a scenario and in scenarios like this they are like, "What are you doing?" [00:16:03] Earlier I used to have to say that I work; I'm very ashamed of that (chuckles) or that I'm studying, which was better. This time I stuck to that, depending on who asked me a question. Now I've started to say I'm an artist." (laughs) It feels really odd to say that. That's all I say. Chris's criticism is that I give one-word answers or answers that do not inspire people to be curious or prevent their curiosity or they look kind of baffled like "what do we do with that?" [00:16:57] Chris's friend was telling someone else about me as they said hello so he said, "I've asked her about it and all she said was this and doesn't say much more." I'm hard to communicate with is what, I guess, people's impression is. In my defense, what I said to him was, "I'm just not sure if people are curious or interested enough." In such a scenario you've got so many people around you and you're distracted and this and that. You're probably thinking, "I have to go and get a drink," or "I wonder when they'll serve dinner," or "I wonder where my baby is or my wife is." Someone is telling you about their work which, to me, is very important and I'm just not convinced that you'll give me your full attention in that half-second or five seconds and I'll share with you this thing that's so important to me. [00:18:11] Plus I'm not confident so I just remain shy or, as Chris says, painfully shy and I'll be by myself. I'll play with the babies. (laughs) (pause) How did we get here? I feel lost. I used to feel very lost earlier. I guess I still feel lost if they're strangers, but I'm okay if I've met them a few times before. I keep constantly asking, "Where am I in this?" [00:19:09]

THERAPIST: It sounds like you're looking for other people's feedback to orient you.

CLIENT: Is that what it is?

THERAPIST: Maybe.

CLIENT: How would that orient me?

THERAPIST: It seems like you're looking for them to provide some sort of guidance or direction; do you continue speaking? Do you not continue speaking? You're awaiting their feedback.

CLIENT: Why do I do this? Why do I go to such lengths?

THERAPIST: That's an interesting reaction.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean seriously.

THERAPIST: You looked so fed up. [00:20:02]

CLIENT: I'm . . . I don't know. (laughs) I'm just like I don't know if I want to constantly look for that elevator speech about my work. I feel so inadequate and awkward. The thing is that I don't realize that maybe there are more people out there who feel awkward, so it's all fine. I shouldn't put so much weight on those things, first of all. I should use these as an exercise to feel okay, to feel solid but I don't. I feel helpless and inadequate. (chuckles) [00:21:02] (pause) It's like I already feel bad so why should I go there and feel worse about myself? I'm trying not to think of it as something so significant, except that, again, if they're not significant then when I'm there I should have a good time and not feel anxious and disoriented. [00:21:59] Everybody there isn't a celebrity. They're not all geniuses. And even if they were, I shouldn't feel bad. (pause) Chris thinks that I'll feel differently or I'll act differently when I get some success, but I feel like you'll say, "No, I don't think so." (laughs)

THERAPIST: That's what I'll say?

CLIENT: Yeah, because you said earlier that these are all temporary solutions. The problem is elsewhere. The problem is from here.

THERAPIST: What do you believe?

CLIENT: I don't know. (laughs) [00:23:02] (sigh) That orientation word keeps coming up and I wonder just how important it is for me. I remember you saying compass as well. I just wonder are people born with their own compass?

THERAPIST: What do you think?

CLIENT: Do you have your own compass?

THERAPIST: What do you think?

CLIENT: I think you do. (laughs)

THERAPIST: What does that look like to you? How am I that makes you feel that? [00:24:01]

CLIENT: I don't know. You know who you are and what you want, I guess; and you're probably not awkward at parties. (laughs) (long pause) The only time I was engaged in that party was when all these economists got together and they were talking about this one paper that had just come out about this conundrum. The subject was a tailoring shop, tailoring shops in Nepal. They're using all these technical terms and Chris was standing there and I was listening to them and I got so frustrated I was like, "Oh, my God. What the hell are you guys talking about?" [00:25:59] I didn't say that loudly and I just walked away. I just felt very upset (chuckles) because I'm also researching tailors, but I'm trying to show them in their complexities and make them seem funny and complex and beautiful people and adamant and this and that. I

I'm so proud of my tools. I'm not saying I'm proud of my work, although I received very good feedback from my professors and my colleagues and stuff, but I'm just so proud that an artist can to do such a better job which I feel like is such a better job subjectifying tailors that these are columnists that are good. [00:26:59] Their approach seems I don't know. I shouldn't put them down because, again, why a columnist makes a policy suggestion and it affects a million people. But at that level of analysis and whatnot, it's so alienating to the tailor. If a tailor would come across that paper, first of all, he wouldn't be able to understand it. At least he would be able to understand and appreciate and love, and maybe even disagree with a fiction writer's portrayal of a tailor. My point is I felt very righteous (laughing) walking away from them, but then a little foolhardy. [00:27:58]

I'm either aloof or I'm hostile. (laughs) Yeah, people prefer people to be friendly and not aloof or hostile. (long pause) [00:29:09] When I go to Chris with these things, to his friends, part of me always wonders, "Am I wasting my time with this? Shouldn't I be going to more literary gatherings?" But then the kinds of literary gatherings that I could go to but I don't go to are full of emerging writers and they might be kind of beginners. I don't know. I guess I could go to them but . . . With Chris I have access to people who are more established. I don't know what that gets me, it's just probably not . . . I don't know. (laughs) [00:30:04] I guess in the end it will cost better than analysis here. I'm not really sure. I just wonder, will I fit there more and feel a little less lost? I doubt it. I feel I will feel lost there as well. I know I will because I have. I just wish I was a lot more grounded than I am. It feels like this is a constant complaint with me, not feeling oriented. I don't know why. [00:31:01]

I experience disasters every hour. I sound like someone who does (laughs), like they've been experiencing hurricanes but have no idea where their house is or who they belong to. But that's constantly my sense, but I wish I could learn to belong to myself, like I could be that tree that I tether to. Right now it feels like there's not much there in myself to tether me to myself. (laughs) It's like a bunch of dried leaves or something, not yet a tree. [00:32:01] Do I have a very me-centric opinion or again, that question that you hate. (laughs) Are other people as they-centric as I am? Me-centric? I feel like I need a new center. Do you think I should look for a new center?

THERAPIST: I don't know. (long pause) [00:33:48]

CLIENT: What is a compass? It has a center, right? (laughs) I don't know how a compass works.

THERAPIST: With magnets somehow, I think.

CLIENT: Yeah, but what is a magnet attracted to?

THERAPIST: I don't know how compasses work.

CLIENT: There's a gravitational force or a magnetic force. There is a center and there is pointing towards the north. It's always pointing towards the north, right? Depending on that, you determine where you want to go. I may know where I want to go, but I don't know well, I don't know. I can't make any (laughing) definite statements right now. I think I know where to go, but somehow I get lost. Is that what it is? [00:35:01] I'm not sure. (laughs) Yeah, that must be what it is, right? Because if I don't have a compass . . . yeah, it feels like a sea instead of like a city with streets and signs and stuff, I think. Yeah. (chuckles) So I guess when I approach people I'm always asking them, "So where is north? Which way is north?" (pause) [00:36:06] A compass seems to be a pretty significant tool. One cannot do without it, I think. (long pause) [00:37:28] Are people's careers their compasses, or their families, perhaps? I'm not sure.

THERAPIST: Do you feel like I have special knowledge?

CLIENT: (laughs) No, I'm just really lost so I can't even understand the thoughts that are coming into my head.

THERAPIST: What do you feel lost in? [00:38:20]

CLIENT: I don't understand . . . just talking about compasses, I just wonder about their significance and what the interpretation is and how I could get a compass. I'm a little lost in all the metaphors (chuckles) and their meaning. (chuckles) I'm not thinking very clearly.

THERAPIST: Do you feel lost in your work?

CLIENT: Sometimes, yeah, but I usually try to do a good amount of research and then have a plan laid out before I write so I don't feel completely lost. That would be not my first draft. My first draft I would probably be like I don't know. I usually don't work on just extemporary things. I have to have some idea, some solid grounding of an event or I know I'm going from A to B to C before I start. [00:39:58] In here, I don't know. (laughs) I'm analyzing myself and I don't know how to do that because I don't have all the tools.

THERAPIST: What tools are you missing?

CLIENT: I'm not sure. I don't know what I'm missing. (chuckles) I don't know. Distance, I guess? Definitely distance. Objectivity. (pause) Kindness. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: Why is that missing?

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: Kindness. [00:41:01]

CLIENT: Because I've known myself for too long. I'm a little impatient. (laughs) I'm a little frustrated a lot frustrated. (long pause) [00:42:17]

THERAPIST: What do you think about when you're quiet?

CLIENT: I'm still thinking about that compass thing and what it means to me and why I don't have it. (laughs) I feel like I can say with certainty that for Chris, his compass is his work and he orients himself on that basis. He knows what he wants and he knows how to get it. At any gathering he knows who he is. [00:43:00] He's always had a very solid answer for yeah about who he is and what he wants to do. That's funny. My roommates were sitting down and they had a few people over and Chris and I were just leaving. And even while he was just standing he managed to talk to them on his way out. He didn't feel pressured like, "Oh, no. They don't have much time for me. Are they really listening?" Like me. He managed to extract information from them and let them know about his work. It was neat and clean and done. (chuckles) [00:43:57] He made an impression. Yeah. (chuckles) (pause) Which is not to say that he does not feel lost ever. He feels very lost if he were to hang out with my mom's friends. (laughs) Completely very, very different socially, even for him. Me, too, I guess; but I've had that more often. He goes to readings with me and he feels lost and I feel very bad subjecting him to things about which he doesn't know much. [00:44:59] He'll go with me wherever and he won't even sense this, but it will definitely be there that he'll be far less interesting and engaging if the conversations around him are not interesting and engaging to him. And then he'll just slowly and slowly withdraw into himself and I'll feel awful. Awful. (chuckles)

THERAPIST: We're going to need to stop for today, okay?

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I will see you on Wednesday. I want just to let you know about the Holidays. I'll be here except for the Monday before Christmas, so I'll be here all the other times.

CLIENT: Okay. Sounds good. I got an invoice yesterday.

THERAPIST: Oh, yeah? Because you paid when the insurance was kicking in you had all that credit, so now it's $10 a session so I think there was a little bit of a balance. You can pay whenever.

CLIENT: Sure. I have a checkbook with me right now.

THERAPIST: You can pay me on Wednesday. That's fine.

CLIENT: Okay. Sounds good.

THERAPIST: Okay. Take care, Shelby.

CLIENT: You, too.

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