TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

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[0:01:00]

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in. (Pause) [0:01:59]

CLIENT: How are you?

THERAPIST: Good, thank you. (inaudible at 0:02:08)

CLIENT: (Chuckling) No. (Pause) I should wear layers or something (chuckling).

THERAPIST: I’m sorry?

CLIENT: I should wear layers like this. I feel hot and cold all the time. (Pause) (inaudible at 0:02:45) today?

THERAPIST: I’m…? I’m having a hard time hearing you today.

CLIENT: No, I’m just wondering what I should talk about (chuckling). [0:03:00] What’s been happening since Wednesday? (Pause) I can’t remember what I’ve been doing. (Pause) [0:04:00] (Chuckling) I’m not sure what to say.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I guess last time we talked about rejection and all that. [0:04:58] (Pause) I guess I still feel confused and not sure what my priorities are. The last time you said you’d help me realize or figure out what’s important to me.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I’m not quite sure… (Pause) [0:06:00] I feel like I should have some idea by now, considering my age. But I don’t know (chuckling). I feel (pause) there’s so much uncertainty. I guess I have to live with it. But I think certainty kind of scares me, bores me, so it’s… uncertainty scares me, but certainty bores me. So I’m not really sure which emotion is better, [which one I can live with more] (ph) (chuckling). I don’t know if that makes sense. (Pause) [0:06:58] Yeah, what is it about certainty that…? Well, I guess it also scares me. What could it be about certainty that makes me so afraid? I’m not sure. (Pause) Do you know (chuckling)? What usually scares people about certainties? I’m not sure.

THERAPIST: I don’t understand your questions, and that’s why I’m pausing.

CLIENT: Well, with David, he was saying, so my life for the next seven, six, seven years is going to be teaching and producing six or seven papers. [0:08:04] I was like, really? I mean, so… and I was surprised that it he had it down to that specificity. And he said, no, that really is it. And he was telling me it takes so much amount of time to work on a paper, and then send it out, and then they send it back, and this and that. So… but, I mean, there was… I tried to detect kind of a resignation in his voice. Maybe there was some, but it was more… there was more comfort in his voice than resignation. He knew this was what was going to happen, and he was prepared for it or preparing for it. He knew. It was almost like he could see his future and go forward and live it. [0:09:03]

And that frightened me a little bit. I mean, I wonder if I wanted certainty of that kind in my life, and I don’t know if I do or… I mean, it would be good to know that I’m getting published somewhere or finishing a book or… and sending it out and that it would be accepted. That would be awesome to know (chuckling). But I want… I think I want… I like the idea of having things open and not knowing and (pause) there being a lot more kind of variation (chuckling)? I don’t know. [0:09:56] I find it hard to describe the actual… he keeps saying, it’s so nice to have you here. (Chuckling) And I keep feeling bad about that. Yesterday, he was like, let’s get engaged. And I was like, no (chuckling). I just feel horrible for that, and... (Pause) Just… I’m surprised I guess. I’m like, don’t you want to know more people? Or don’t you…? How can you forgive me for what I did, and all that? And I guess I shouldn’t look a gift horse in the mouth. But still even… then for his sake what does it mean? [0:10:56] I don’t know if I’m making any sense (chuckling). But… (Pause)

I think I used to like or still like the idea of potentiality. Like, what is a person’s potential or an idea’s potential? And I was very afraid to explore those ideas. But now that it’s time to explore them... for the longest time I just thought if… I had to feel that I lived in just thinking. You know? Yeah, that I have this idea, I have these ideas, and I write them down somewhere. But I have a job right now, so I cannot really find out what those ideas would look like if I carry them through. [0:11:59] Now I have the (inaudible at 0:12:02) kind of carry them through, and very (ph) disappointing when you actually say you have an idea for a story, and then you execute it. And you’re like, huh, it wasn’t as interesting as I thought it would be. (Pause) You can’t really live your whole life just in the potentiality of stuff. You have to execute those ideas, too. And that is what they look like. They could be disappointing, but you have to, I don’t know, make your peace with them? I’m not sure (chuckling). (Pause) Yeah, I don’t know. [0:12:59] I guess I do that quite often. (Pause)

For the longest time that I’ve known Victor, he… the… what I liked about him was that… I would always introduce him to other people as, oh, he’s this great filmmaker (chuckling), even though he hasn’t made [a lot] (ph). But I had the idea, belief, that if he did get a chance to make a film, it would be awesome, it would be great, just because he’s seen everything great that’s been made. But I was talking to my roommate last night, and that’s what she was saying. It’s very dangerous to love people based on their potential. [0:14:03] You have to live in reality. What have they really achieved? Who are they right now? But then I feel like, in that case, David should not like me at all, because, who am I right now? I’m not anyone. I have this potential, and people recognize me for that potential right now, people who’ve heard my stories or my teachers. They recognize the potential, but I guess I have the time right now to turn that potential into (inaudible at 0:14:42) or something (chuckling) and see where that takes me. Am I making any sense (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: You’ve asked that a few times.

CLIENT: I’m not sure if I am. [0:14:56] I’m just saying, why would David want… ? I mean, isn’t he doing the same thing? I mean, he’s supposed to be the realistic one here. (Pause) (Chuckling)

THERAPIST: How is he not being realistic?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: How is he not?

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, for wanting to be with me, for liking me for my potential and not for who I am right now. But that’s just who I am. I haven’t… I’m on… trying to get somewhere. I’m not there yet. And that’s my (inaudible at 0:15:37), or that’s just what I’m doing right now. (Chuckling) Right now has been a few years, since 2009. But…yeah, [when I had jobs] (ph) (inaudible at 0:15:53). (Sighing) I don’t know (chuckling). [0:15:57] I guess I started talking about certainty versus uncertainty and then somehow connected to potentiality [at some point] (ph). Yeah, I mean, the uncertainty in potentiality, that is attractive, I guess. Maybe that’s attractive to David as well, maybe. (Pause) But can you help me understand some of this confusion in my head around being scared of certainty?

THERAPIST: Sure, I can. [0:16:56]

CLIENT: (Chuckling) Do you need me to talk more about it, or…?

THERAPIST: What would you like…? Would you like to tell me…? I don’t know what you want from me. I’m confused. I’m really confused.

CLIENT: (Chuckling) What confused you? I don’t…

THERAPIST: Like a philosophy of life?

CLIENT: No, not…

THERAPIST: Yeah, I’m not sure what you want from me.

CLIENT: No, like previously when you articulated some stuff to me that’s been very helpful, so I just wonder if you could do that here (chuckling). But I’m not sure how you do what you do. I don’t know how you do it, so (inaudible at 0:17:36). (Pause) [0:18:00] Yeah, I’m just not sure what it is about David’s certainty that scares me. [That’s all] (ph). I wonder if you could help me explore it (chuckling). That’s all.

THERAPIST: Well, and I guess… yeah. My answer is yes. So is then the expectation that you ask you a question…?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because I’m not sure, after that… yes, I very much feel I can.

CLIENT: (Chuckling)

THERAPIST: But then I’m not sure what you’re asking for after that. It seems like then there’s something else I should do.

CLIENT: No, I don’t know what your method is (chuckling). But (inaudible at 0:18:53).

THERAPIST: Really? We’ve been together for a while now. [0:18:58]

CLIENT: (Chuckling) Yeah, that’s true. But it seems like I have to talk for a while, and then you kind of see something or… and say something. I don’t know (chuckling). Am I right? (Pause)

THERAPIST: Yeah, I guess I’m not… you’ve been in here having your experience. And so I’m not sure if you’re saying, well, this is your experience, but that you’re not sure that’s valid, and I should tell you if it’s valid or not. That’s what I mean.

CLIENT: (Chuckling)

THERAPIST: I’m not sure what… when you say, am I right, well, I sort of want to say, but… well, has that been your experience?

CLIENT: Hmm. Yeah (chuckling).

THERAPIST: So then what’s the…? So I guess I’m trying to understand what the question is.

CLIENT: What question?

THERAPIST: You’re saying, how does it…? [0:19:54] Even your saying, how does it work in here, when you’ve been in here for a while, so I feel there must be something else you’re looking for, not just how it works, because we’ve been working together. It’s not like we’re meeting for the first time.

CLIENT: Yeah, no, I just never really understood or asked about the method of this. So now… (chuckling) maybe it’s too late to ask that now. But, I mean… yeah.

THERAPIST: There’s a way in which you’re always looking toward me for some guidance, for answers…

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And that’s sort of what I’m interested in, what that means. (Pause) It’s almost like you’re saying to me, I don’t know what to do. Can you tell me what to do?

CLIENT: (Chuckling) Yeah, kind of. (Pause) [0:21:00] I’m not very good at creating structure for myself.

THERAPIST: Yeah, and I think that’s probably what we need to talk about. But the thing that you are good at is creating.

CLIENT: Am I?

THERAPIST: That’s what you do as your vocation, is you create.

CLIENT: But if I was good at it I’d be published by now (chuckling).

THERAPIST: You’d be what?

CLIENT: If I were good at it, I would be published by now. Not really. I don’t know if I am good at it (chuckling). (Pause)

THERAPIST: I feel like when you open… ask me these very open-ended questions, you’re kind of saying, I don’t know what to do with myself (chuckling). [0:21:57]

CLIENT: (Chuckling) Yeah, that’s kind of how I feel most of the time.

THERAPIST: Yeah. (Pause)

CLIENT: I know other people are more confident (chuckling). (Pause) [0:23:00] [0:24:00] (Chuckling)

THERAPIST: Where did you go?

CLIENT: I’m not sure what to say (chuckling). I feel like talking is the problem (chuckling). [0:24:58]

THERAPIST: What do you mean?

CLIENT: I don’t know. I feel like if I say something it will be wrong or something.

THERAPIST: Do you feel like that’s what I’ve said to you so far, that what you’re saying is wrong?

CLIENT: No, I don’t know. I feel a bit shy now (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Hmm. What do you think that’s about?

CLIENT: I don’t know. (Sighing)

THERAPIST: Did you feel like I was reprimanding you?

CLIENT: (Chuckling) No. I’m not sure. (Pause) I guess I didn’t like hearing myself, so I just shut up (chuckling).

THERAPIST: What didn’t you like about it? [0:25:58]

CLIENT: Like I sounded helpless and not very confident, so I didn’t like that (chuckling). (Pause) [0:27:00] [0:28:00]

THERAPIST: What are you doing?

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: What are you doing?

CLIENT: Oh, nothing (chuckling).

THERAPIST: I mean, what are you doing with this session?

CLIENT: Oh, sorry (chuckling). I don’t know what to day. I feel very embarrassed.

THERAPIST: About…? [0:28:58]

CLIENT: Just earlier, so I don’t know where to start. I’m stuck (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Earlier?

CLIENT: Hmm?

THERAPIST: When you say earlier, I’m not sure what you’re referring to.

CLIENT: Just that thing about potentiality and all that. (Sighing) (Pause) Sorry, I get into these funks or something where I just want to get inside a hole and not say anything (inaudible at 0:29:40).

THERAPIST: Well, it seems like you started out wanting guidance.

CLIENT: (Chuckling) Yeah.

THERAPIST: And maybe you’re disappointed that you didn’t get a good (inaudible at 0:29:59). [0:29:59]

CLIENT: Maybe (chuckling). Yeah. It seems you’re saying that I shouldn’t want it, so I’m not sure… (Pause) I guess I come across as very needy or something.

THERAPIST: Hmm. I don’t think… I don’t want to be communicating that you shouldn’t want it. I want to communicate that it’s important to talk about that you want that.

CLIENT: Hmm. Well, I don’t know what to think, what else to say or feel about it. I do (ph), and I feel just embarrassed that I do, because I hear people disappointed that I want guidance. [0:31:03]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: It seems to be not the right thing to want at my age (chuckling). I’m not sure… (Pause) I feel like, if I don’t seek it, then I’ll be lost for a very long time. Instead of that, I guess I could have a shortcut to sensibility by getting guidance (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Hmm. Yeah, I do get this feeling sometimes… when you [were turning] (ph) to me earlier in the session, it’s almost like you’re saying, I don’t want to think. Can you tell me?

CLIENT: (Chuckling)

THERAPIST: It’s like, I don’t want to do this work. Can you just give me the answer?

CLIENT: Well, I can do the work. I mean, it’s been… I’ve been doing this for a while. [0:31:59] And I see… I feel good when I’m able to think through something, so I’m starting to trust myself. But I guess I still want prompts because the session at the beginning feels too much… too open. There’s… anything could be said, and what if it’s the wrong thing?

THERAPIST: What makes something wrong? Wrong in whose eyes?

CLIENT: I don’t know, just maybe it’s dull or not as fruitful to myself.

THERAPIST: To me, too, or just to you?

CLIENT: To both of us, I guess. (Pause)

THERAPIST: Well, you have this assumption that you don’t know, but other people do. [0:32:55] Other people have all this special knowledge.

CLIENT: About what?

THERAPIST: About a lot of things, I think. How to live your life, what’s important.

CLIENT: Yeah (chuckling). (Pause)

THERAPIST: Special abilities. (Pause)

CLIENT: (Sighing) Yeah. I feel like they are more in touch with reality than I am. (Pause)

THERAPIST: It also seems like a request to be taken care of.

CLIENT: I suppose. (Pause) [0:34:00] Is that a bad thing?

THERAPIST: I don’t know how to answer those questions. It seems like you feel I have some judgment on these things, though.

CLIENT: Well, it just sounds like being needed to be taken care of is a bad thing.

THERAPIST: Well, if that’s how you think about things, that’s something for us to talk about, too.

CLIENT: Well, just when I hear it I hear I should be independent and not wanting other people to take care of me (chuckling).

THERAPIST: That’s in you. Those are not my opinions or attitudes. Those are your opinions and attitudes. (Pause) [0:35:00] Maybe in that way you’re hoping that I would be more like David, sort of having a sense, this is right, this is wrong, this is what you should do.

CLIENT: Oh, I really hope you’re not like David (chuckling).

THERAPIST: In some ways… (Pause) I don’t know if these things are right and wrong. (Pause) I can talk to you about what they mean for you…

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And what you judge them to be and the implications of how you judge them. [But I don’t know] (ph). (Pause) [0:36:00]

CLIENT: Yeah, I don’t know why I hear judgment (chuckling) in those statements or… yeah. But that’s what I hear. (Pause) [0:37:00] (Sighing) (Pause) [0:38:00] [Anyway, I would feel lost if I didn’t need your] (ph) judgment (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: The judgment itself is an important indication of where I’m at or what I’m doing (chuckling). (Pause)

THERAPIST: You seem more inside yourself today.

CLIENT: I feel horrible (chuckling).

THERAPIST: About…?

CLIENT: Well, just… I don’t know, I just feel like I could cry right now, but… (Pause) I don’t feel very good.

THERAPIST: What do you feel horrible about? [0:38:56]

CLIENT: I feel kind of inadequate for… I don’t know why (chuckling). I’m not… [I feel like, wow] (ph), I’m so lost or something. (Pause) I just cannot shake that feeling, no matter what I do or how I… yeah, whose guidance I seek. Maybe I just have to make peace with this feeling of being lost. Maybe it’s a permanent state. (Pause)

THERAPIST: I guess I don’t understand the linkage between how you feel now and assuming that you will feel that way forever. [0:39:56]

CLIENT: [Then feeling of how I am] (ph) (chuckling). (Pause)

THERAPIST: Do you think that happens sometimes when I point out something about you, that it makes you feel badly about yourself?

CLIENT: Yeah, I suppose.

THERAPIST: Well, we should think about that, because my job hopefully is to point out things about you that you hadn’t thought about and things that you struggle with.

CLIENT: [I know] (ph).

THERAPIST: And if those bring about shame then that’s something for us to think about.

CLIENT: Yeah, okay (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Does that make sense?

CLIENT: Yeah. I don’t know if it can be immediate, though, because (chuckling) shame means that you feel shame and don’t know what to say. [0:40:57] (Pause) (Sighing) (Pause)

THERAPIST: What do you feel shamed about?

CLIENT: I don’t know. I feel like I don’t have certain basic things in place that I should have. (Pause) Yeah. [0:41:58] I feel disappointed in myself. (Pause) (Sighing) I’m not sure. (Pause) [0:43:00] (Sighing) (Pause) [0:44:00]

THERAPIST: Are (ph) you just feeling bad to yourself, you want to keep it quiet?

CLIENT: Yeah (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Why?

CLIENT: Because the thing I say I know will be (inaudible at 0:44:18) just sound mopey and (chuckling) sad and stuff. (Pause) [0:45:00]

THERAPIST: Well, I’m sorry to have to have us end on a note where you feel sad.

CLIENT: (Chuckling) That’s okay. I guess I’ll get over it (chuckling).

THERAPIST: I’d like to help with that process.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Bye, now. I’ll see you on Wednesday.

CLIENT: Yeah, at 9:00.

THERAPIST: Yep, you’ve got it.

CLIENT: (Chuckling) Thank you.

THERAPIST: And I think I mentioned the only day I’m not going to be here at the end of the month is the Monday before Christmas.

CLIENT: Okay, yeah.

THERAPIST: Okay? Otherwise I’ll be here.

CLIENT: Okay, thank you. [0:45:54]

THERAPIST: Okay, take care, bye bye.

CLIENT: Bye.

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