TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi. (Pause)

CLIENT: Hi. (Pause) (Sniffing, clearing throat) [0:01:00] So I guess I don't really... I thought I knew, but I guess I just assumed how this is supposed to work. So, if you could (chuckling)... how is it supposed to work?

THERAPIST: You've been asking that a lot. I'm not... what changed? What changed?

CLIENT: No, it's just, I guess from last time, right? Because it seems like... just to get it clear, I'm supposed to talk. Is that how it works?

THERAPIST: Is that... did you... what did you feel like you were doing before?

CLIENT: That (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I just wondered if that is the correct assumption. [0:02:02]

THERAPIST: Do you feel like there's something I'm not providing for you?

CLIENT: No, that's not... I'm not sure what you're supposed to provide, so I can't really say you're not providing that.

THERAPIST: Does it feel like there's something missing?

CLIENT: No. I don't know what to look for. I don't know, I guess it seems there's a lack of structure (laughing).

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: So I don't... I just want to be sure that thing, like, what... yeah. I'm looking for structure and not finding it and realizing that I have to make it on my own, I guess? That is what I'm confused about (sniffing).

THERAPIST: Well, it's certainly true that the type of therapy that I do, on some level, does... I mean, on some level, has a lot of structure (chuckling). [0:03:01]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But on some level, sort of the... some basic things, there's less structure. There's not you talk, I talk, you talk, right? There's not that kind of structure.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: There's not, let's come in with a topic every time, although you could do that, and you have certainly. That's why I'm kind of curious about what changed because you would often start by saying, you know, I wrote down what we talked about last week, and I was thinking about this. So you actually used to do a lot more of that, and something seems to have changed.

CLIENT: No, I still do that (chuckling).

THERAPIST: But you don't... maybe, but you come in... like, you used to write stuff down, and then bring it up right at the beginning, like, I was thinking about this.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you've been doing less of that.

CLIENT: Hmm. Yeah, I'm not sure what changed because I always right down stuff right after, even last time (chuckling), even though I didn't say much. But I still wrote down stuff that we talked... (Sniffing) [0:03:59] Because you said that I should... if there's something that comes up between us that you should talk about that. So I guess I thought maybe I should voice this thing that I feel scared of sometimes, that there is no structure. Or sometimes (blowing nose) there's just this open space, you know, 45 minutes, and I have to fill it up with something interesting and insightful or whatever, you know?

THERAPIST: For you or for me?

CLIENT: For both of us (chuckling). It's because sometimes I feel like, I don't know if I can do that (chuckling). I feel lost and stuff, I guess. [0:04:53] Like, this is not a classroom where we have assignments and, like, a structure of a discussion, so... I guess I prefer that (chuckling). But life is whatever it will be, like the classroom (ph), so...

THERAPIST: Well, you prefer that, hence going back for a degree you've already had before...

CLIENT: Yeah (chuckling).

THERAPIST: So that there's structure in place for you.

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm happiest in that setting I think. Not happiest, but, like, most satisfied (chuckling), most engaged or something (sniffing). So you're saying this is not really a very structured thing? (Chuckling) [0:05:58]

THERAPIST: You and I may have very different experiences about it. It sounds like you feel... you experience it as less structured than I experience it.

CLIENT: Oh, so you experience structure?

THERAPIST: I mean, I completely see what you're saying, that there are certain parts that are not structured.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But I do think there's ways in which this is a very highly structured environment...

CLIENT: Hmm.

THERAPIST: So it depends on how you look at it. We meet at very definitive times for a specific period of time...

CLIENT: (Sniffing, laughing)

THERAPIST: You usually start, I usually chime in at some point. There are particular things that we talk about that are related to you, and they're often thematic. I feel like, as much as possible I'm quite consistent in sort of my presence...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, there's not usually that much variation in terms of... like, I don't come in here sad some days, or at least I don't feel sad and you (ph). So I'm a pretty consistent presence, which I think can also be very structuring.

CLIENT: Hmm.

THERAPIST: So, while I agree that there's (inaudible at 0:06:57), it's not like there's a class topic for the day. Although in some ways the class topic is the same every time, which is you. That's the topic. [0:07:06]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I feel like there's a lot of structured parts of it, yeah.

CLIENT: Thank you for sharing that because you're right. Our experiences are different, so... yeah, I get so tied to one way of looking at things that I can really shut myself (chuckling) to other possibilities.

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: It is very scary (chuckling) for someone who wants to be creative, you know? Yeah, I wonder why I do that, like, just completely shutting myself off to other possibilities and (sighing)... I try, I (inaudible at 0:07:46) try to put myself in other people's shoes and try to see things from their perspective. And I don't think I do that very well, I mean, unless they're a character I've created, I don't. [0:08:01]

THERAPIST: Hmm. Well, so tell me more about your reaction to what I said.

CLIENT: No, I liked it. I was very comforted (laughing).

THERAPIST: What felt comforting about it?

CLIENT: I was very scared that there's no structure, oh no! I always have to talk about me, and I find it so boring or so... too much pressure on to produce something worthwhile. And I was just caught up in that fear. And you're looking at it from a distance and seeing, no, this is a highly structured environment, and there is... look, here, see, feel with me, here are the walls. Here's the roof. Here are the windows, and (chuckling)... I guess it felt a little like that, so... [0:08:59]

THERAPIST: Hmm.

CLIENT: I don't know. I really like when people show me things that I didn't see, you know?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: We read books... I mean, I read books, and... you know, lots of books. But that just doesn't take away or provide the same kind of magic as seeing something from other person's perspective. I really like it (laughing). And I guess I feel like I really need it in a lot of instances, so... (Pause)

THERAPIST: Do you feel, if someone isn't providing you with structure or at least as much structure as you'd like, do you feel alone?

CLIENT: How do you mean? [0:10:01] (Laughing)

THERAPIST: Just like that, [I don't know] (ph).

CLIENT: No, I never thought of it that way, so I'm not sure. Can you give an example (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: I don't know. No, actually, I don't know how to...

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess I do. Like, I guess in this scenario I feel alone looking at the problem all by myself and knowing that I was botching (ph) it, you know? I didn't have your peace, and my peace was screwed up and I just couldn't fix it, you know? So yes, I do feel alone. When there's structure and your perspective adds up to mine, it feels more sort of complete, you know? It's a weird connection I guess (chuckling). I don't know why you said that. [0:11:00]

THERAPIST: Well, I'm trying to understand what is at stake in your providing structure for yourself. Like, does that mean that you're all alone in your life? Like, what that means.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or what the drawbacks are because I think creativity is... I think people are happiest when they're leading a creative life, and I define creative very, very broadly.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: For you you're also looking to live your life, to have creative endeavors in a very specific way as well. It has broad implications, but... so for you it's a particularly difficult challenge for someone who likes structure so much and yet wants to have an open space to create for yourself. I mean, creativity is almost the antithesis of a structured environment, right?

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Creating something that's not there, that's what creating is, is creating something that wasn't there before, not filling in the spaces of something that already was. [0:11:59] And so this is such an important life, sort of, vocation or endeavor for you, that this tension is something that really is important to work out or come to some sort of better resolution around.

CLIENT: Yeah. I still don't see the problem, though. I mean, I see the problem as in, I sense it, but I don't have clarity about it, like, my need for structure versus my need for open space. I guess maybe it'll help if I define what kind of structure do I need versus what... yeah, I'm not sure (chuckling).

THERAPIST: The conversation seems too abstract? [0:12:51]

CLIENT: Yeah, abstract as well as I'm just so close to myself and my life and my needs, I don't really know what... you know, okay, this structure's good whereas that structure's very limiting. And I just have feelings and just not enough distance to analyze them as yet. I don't know. I mean it all comes down to Chris (sp?) versus someone else or me and what I try to do and (clearing throat) yeah, I don't know how to articulate it right now.

THERAPIST: Well, what if we change structure to a guide? You know, because that's... you've described Chris as providing structure, but in other ways he sort of guides you. These are the values by which you should live by.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And that, in many ways, is comforting to you. Oh, okay, these are the values that, you know, he's guiding you and sort of a plan for life, one way to approach life. [0:14:04]

CLIENT: Yeah, absolutely.

THERAPIST: And sometimes you feel it's too limiting.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And sometimes you feel like this is... oh, okay, now I know what to do.

CLIENT: (Laughing) Yeah, I'm just totally like that, and I don't know. Maybe that's how I live my life. I always desire structure and then hate it (chuckling). It's a challenge every single day (chuckling). It just doesn't go away, it just doesn't get better or have more clarity or make my decision and live with it. I'm just not convinced because... and I wonder if I ever will be. Yeah. Like last night we were coming back from (clearing throat) school, and it was 10:00 or something at night. [0:15:03] And we were on the train, and my other classmates were in a different car of the train. And (sighing) I wanted to sit with them (chuckling) instead of Chris just because they were talking about literature, and I don't have anyone to talk to about literature with. I should do something about that need, but how (chuckling)?

So soon as we sat down, I just put on my headphones just because I didn't... I guess I wanted to distance Chris, and yeah, just... I mean he didn't do anything. I was just, like, whatever. So he pulled out his book and started reading, and I was listening to my music. And people started coming in, and I was observing other people. [0:16:01] And there were these guys who were looking at me from across the train that were in... and they all kind of looked, I don't know, sort of degenerate. Not, you know... nothing wrong with them. They were just... they had moppy hair, and one guy had rolled up his trousers. And I was like, this is so cold outside, what is he doing exposing his ankles? And... but he was looking at me, like, weirdly or whatever. And I wasn't thinking consciously, but I was like... I was just thinking, if I just walked... I mean, got on the train right now, I would probably be put off by those buys and be interested in Chris because he's very prim and proper. It's 10:00 (ph), but everything is in its place, and he was reading this very think, important book (laughing). [0:17:04] But it was like I shut him out, you know?

Like, he's the idea of my... of how you live life. I'd rather have ambition and hard work, and I think that should be life. But not guys who are exciting or want to have fun, which made me sad because Chris was asking, what do you want to do over the holidays? You want to go on break? And I was like, are you kidding me? Have you forgotten how bad it was last year? (Coughing) And so, I mean, I said, basically, this is the thing (ph), like, I want spontaneity and all that, but you are very structured (laughing). [0:18:03] And he said, okay, we can plan for spontaneity (laughing), and I was like, this is the funniest thing I've heard all day. (Laughing) You should put it online, like, plan for spontaneity. I mean, you've got to laugh with that (laughing), being so him, you know? What do you do with that, you know? He was like, well, what if we don't find a hotel room? You have to plan. I was like, you're right (laughing). Good luck with planning spontaneity, you know, see how far you get.

So... but that's what I was thinking, that I want openness and limitlessness and (inaudible at 0:18:54) also in someone who I wanted to be with, you know? [0:19:01] But then, you know, that moment on the train where he is the most eligible guy, you know? I mean, not eligible, but... yeah, I mean...

(Knocking on door)

THERAPIST: Don't worry about it, sometimes the UPS person (chuckling)...

CLIENT: Oh. Yeah, so I was just like, I'm just never going to resolve this (chuckling), and... (Sighing) And I think about what you say, that why can I not provide whatever, so I guess that is what I'm thinking. Either I provide structure on my own, or I provide spontaneity on my own, which is the thing that I can provide. And I guess I can provide both, but I'm... [0:20:01]

THERAPIST: Well, I guess a different... or another dimension to it is if you're the one who's providing it, if it's structure you're providing, it's still spontaneous because it's coming from you. It's still a creative process.

CLIENT: So [what thing is] (ph) structure?

THERAPIST: Well, I'm not sort of... maybe spontaneous is the wrong way of saying it, then, because I see the distinction between something that someone else provides for you to fit in versus something you create. And whether the creative act is sort of a responsiveness to your own just wishes, you know, more of a... or whether the creative act is something that you plan in a... sort of a plan, they're both creative acts. They're both acts of creativity by definition because they're coming from you and not from somebody else. [0:20:57]

CLIENT: Hmm.

THERAPIST: You know, when... well, maybe this is true, it's a difference between someone telling you to write a story and this is what the topic should be about, which still gives you a lot of room for creativity but it's providing you with initial structure versus you sitting down and writing a novel.

CLIENT: Yeah. [I've never done the former] (ph) (chuckling). Well, kind of.

THERAPIST: In school there's probably an element of that, no?

CLIENT: No. I did enter a contest where they had, like... okay, write about [a red sweater] (ph) (chuckling). So I didn't (ph) do that. But yeah, the novel, it's like, I have to create all that structure. [0:21:50] It is daunting, I mean... but I see what you're saying, that it's part of the creative process. And it is actually spontaneous where, you know, you have to be creative and be like, okay, this is on the backburner now. But this topic because of these and these reasons I will work on now. And this is the plan, and, well, in five days I should have a draft or something. So yeah, I guess that element is there (sniffing). But I just feel like it won't happen as quickly if I'm not physically close to Chris (chuckling) or... yeah, Chris. Or yeah, school, and there's a lot of danger of just floating. It's so confusing.

When I wasn't in school, there were dark periods, and then there were very bright periods. [0:23:01] The dark periods were when I was getting rejected (chuckling). And then the bright periods where when I was seeing Victor (sp) and workin (chuckling) as well, so... but there's just a lot of danger of me not making a good use of my time. And someone like Chris who is so structured and so hard-working, it feels comforting to (clearing throat) just align myself and my project to him (chuckling). (Pause) [0:23:59] Yeah, I mean I fear quite illegitimately (ph) so that if I'm all by myself then I don't know if I'll be able to work (chuckling, sniffing). (Pause)

THERAPIST: And why wouldn't you?

CLIENT: Why wouldn't I work?

THERAPIST: Be able to work?

CLIENT: (Sighing) Yeah, just too much of an open space, too much freedom. And I have a tendency to be careless and (chuckling)... (Pause) [0:25:01] I don't know. I feel like I haven't tried it enough (chuckling). Maybe I have tried it enough (sniffing). (Pause)

THERAPIST: Well, when I think about the idea of floating, one of the reasons one floats is there's not enough substance to keep one to the... rooted to the ground.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well, just sort of from a physics metaphor, right?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: When you're floating, there's not enough substance, or maybe there's not enough gravitational pull. I don't know. But I was thinking, well, what creates this state of floating?

CLIENT: Yeah (coughing). [0:26:01] I just have this very visceral reaction, like, really, really, very, very strong negative reaction to thinking about (sniffing) the time when I write something that's utterly crap. I just want to cringe at that, thinking about those days in 2011 when I'd gone part-time, and (sniffing) Chris had gone to Rhode Island. And there just... I just had my time to do whatever I wanted, like, three days out of the week or more, four days. And I just worked, like, two or three pieces that were just... that went nowhere (chuckling). [0:27:01] I mean, I guess if I'd showed them to a teacher, they'd be like, oh, this is good, that is good. But it's not... they're not as substantive as the piece that I'm working on, and (sniffing) I just feel like, what the hell was I thinking? Why did I do that? Why did I waste my time on those things? Why, why, why? Like, how stupid of me. There's absolutely no tenderness that I feel that... but I just had to maybe get those things out of my system, and this is... you know, like things that other writers may say, like, no, you have to write those pages (ph) for you to write the other ones, you know? I just feel no kindness to that, and I just fear that so much. [0:27:55]

THERAPIST: Fear?

CLIENT: That time, the idea of writing those things, and that happening again (chuckling).

THERAPIST: The criticism? Your self-criticism?

CLIENT: Yeah (sniffing).

THERAPIST: Well, what do you think prevents you from being kind to yourself?

CLIENT: What's the need to be kind (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: You've just articulated the need to be kind.

CLIENT: I did?

THERAPIST: Yes. it helps you create.

CLIENT: It does?

THERAPIST: That's what you just said.

CLIENT: Really?

THERAPIST: You sit down and you work, and that you don't have to worry about that self-criticism. You know that, whatever you do, you can be kind to yourself.

CLIENT: Hmm. No, depends on the topic (chuckling). It depends on the story (sniffing).

THERAPIST: How do you mean?

CLIENT: Huh?

THERAPIST: How? How so? [0:28:58]

CLIENT: Well, like if it's not related to the piece, then I'm not going to be kind to myself. It's just not worth it. It's a very painful process (chuckling), you know? It's... yeah, I'm still not sure if I want to keep doing this.

THERAPIST: And what makes it painful?

CLIENT: Well, just having all my expectations botched, you know? Not have them, not getting published (chuckling). Yeah, just working, working, working, and no one acknowledging that or...

THERAPIST: Well, in any creative endeavor there are so many different functions. There's the value of self-expression. There's the value of valuing what you've expressed, which is something that you struggle with. [0:30:01] And then many people seek out recognition and acknowledgement from others of the beauty or goodness of what you've [put down] (ph). So there are many different functions, but you do focus on recognition.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you interpret non-recognition as catastrophic.

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, [I do] (ph). Yeah, I wouldn't change that at all (chuckling). Like, I stand by it unfortunately.

THERAPIST: You stand by it being catastrophic?

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean, I don't know of any other way of looking at it. I mean, all those things you're saying are nice, the self-expression and whatever. But it's just really embarrassing (chuckling) to not have that, you know? To tell other people, I'm an artist, and they're like, okay, what have you done? And then you're like... (chuckling) you know. [0:31:00] There's stuff here and there in journals (chuckling). What, what was that? And I just start mumbling and walk away. I don't know, I feel like there's so much of it, the pressure comes from being with someone like Chris who's so, I feel, successful. And, I mean, maybe I blow up his success a little bit too much. But really, like, yeah, it's embarrassing (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Well, that's the flip side of looking for someone else for guidance, that you then have a person that you compare to and can maybe surpass or come up... or fall short.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's not your own unique, individual endeavor. It becomes part of a larger sort of comparative model. [0:31:58]

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I mean, that's the thing (clearing throat). I mean, it feels like a contract sometimes, the relationship, that, like... I mean, he says, I am with you because you have a good heart and this and that. And now we've been together for so long it feels right or whatever, but also because you have this ambition to do something different, you know? That was the thing from the beginning, we both liked each other for that reason. And now he's achieved his goal, and only now am I starting to articulate that, well, he had a way more structured path, you know? Like, get a PhD, get a job. [0:32:56] He's not... yeah. so...

THERAPIST: Right, the nature of what he does provides more structure than what you do.

CLIENT: Yeah, whereas I have to create my own structure. I have to do stupid things like go back for a degree that I already have, you know? There're all these... and then there are financial constraints, and there's... it's a big old mess (chuckling). But you have to wade through that.

THERAPIST: Cecelia, would you like to come another time a week?

CLIENT: Three times a week (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I don't know, I guess.

THERAPIST: (Chuckling) You guess?

CLIENT: (Laughing)

THERAPIST: You're first response was, three times a week?

CLIENT: (Laughing) Am I that messed up?

THERAPIST: Is that what that sounded like?

CLIENT: I don't know (laughing). I mean, sure, we can try (sniffing). I'm open to that if you let me know what times. [0:34:00]

THERAPIST: Do you think that would be something you'd want?

CLIENT: I don't know yet (chuckling). Haven't thought about it much, but yeah, if you think it'll be helpful...

THERAPIST: Well, I'll share with you my thoughts about it. You know, you... despite these sort of moments of uncertainty about yourself and the process, you use this very well. And you can frame it in terms of messed up. I think you have a lot to talk about and a lot you want to sort out and understand about your life.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And what you want to make of your life. And you have very important and broad questions that are not just sort of focused, immediate, kind of, let's look at this and then move on.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And in general I have... you know, I feel that the more we meet, the more we can get stuff done (chuckling), just like the more days you work the more productive you can be. [0:35:03]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And so I do have that... I don't know if it's a bias, but certainly in my experience that, if people are using the process well and they have a lot of goals, having more of that process is a good thing.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: So that's sort of how I think about it. I also know that sometimes on Wednesdays you'll note... you know, you'll say, I'll see you in a few-you've done this a couple times-I'll see you in a few days. And you'll say, well, actually it's more than a few days.

CLIENT: Yeah (chuckling).

THERAPIST: And you're aware of that time between Wednesday and Monday. It sounds like you're aware that it's a stretch of time.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And so I think it's... that's not all of where this is coming from, but it's my awareness of your registering that, the absence of therapy for a period of time.

CLIENT: Yeah, I do sense that (chuckling). Okay. Thank you (chuckling). [0:35:58] (Pause) Yeah, I'm not really very... I guess I'm very confused and stuff, but (sighing) I mean, I have chosen [to think] very hard. [0:37:02] I just didn't realize it was that hard, you know? Like, psychologically would be even damaging (chuckling), you know? But I wouldn't... well not (inaudible at 0:37:12), but I don't have the mental strength to deal with the disappointments that this field can bring, you know? Yeah (chuckling). I guess I definitely need help in sorting out all the problems that I've created because of my assumptions or my, I don't know, lack of whatever (chuckling). [0:37:59] I don't know yet (clearing throat).

THERAPIST: Well, I think a piece of it is, you're looking for guidance that a parent provides, ideally, that you've never gotten because you're parents were so confused and childlike themselves.

CLIENT: I suppose. Yeah.

THERAPIST: You don't have anyone to look up to from your childhood as people who were not only sort of... were lacking in giving you the kind of love and nurturance you need, but models of how to be effective in one's life and in the world. Both your parents were sort of defeated by life in their different ways, not entirely...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But they certainly didn't exhibit a kind of mastery. [0:38:57]

CLIENT: But I do have teachers, and I could look up to them (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Yes, you have definitely created an environment where you do have people, and you do seek that out. And I'm simply pointing out something that was lacking in your past, which has a deep impression at a time in one's life that they really need that guidance because they're just little kids. And I think you feel that lack and bring that lack into different situations. And this is not to put a negative spin on it, because I think your ability to make use of what other people can provide you is a strength.

CLIENT: Hmm.

THERAPIST: But since you're adult and not a child, you also have a sense of your own needs and your own cravings to create for yourself and not simply rely on how other people do it. And so you're constantly feeling that tension. [0:39:59]

CLIENT: Hmm. You mean, like, why am I relying on Chris so much?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. Well, the why is interesting, but also that tension between feeling so safe and secure in that structure and at times feeling like it's suffocating and it's not allowing you to be you.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's like you were saying... did you move, by the way? Did you move out of the apartment?

CLIENT: Not completely. They're not... they haven't found someone they like yet (chuckling). It was going to happen, but it fell through.

THERAPIST: [Got it] (ph). Well, that's probably... it's a related discussion, but it's kind of like your describing that room as a place you actually love, but that it's too much you, which is itself an interesting expression, too much of me.

CLIENT: yeah.

THERAPIST: And so... but there's clearly an appeal to it. It wasn't like a horrible, scary place.

CLIENT: No (chuckling).

THERAPIST: But then... so there's that piece of you, and then there's a piece of you that wants to sort of go right to Chris and have him tell you how to live life or have him be a model for how to live life. [0:41:07] And then feeling inadequate when you're not doing it.

CLIENT: (Chuckling) Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, the more you talk about it, the more I'm like, wow, this is... I really, really need Chris (chuckling). There's really no denying it. I can be in denial, and, oh! I'm just crashing at his place, and that's how I'm explaining it. But I really need him (chuckling) to be him. But it's not that I... doesn't mean that I stop criticizing how structured he is (chuckling). [0:41:55] (Pause) I don't know. (Sighing) (Pause)

THERAPIST: Hmm. Well, that's actually not entirely what I said.

CLIENT: Huh.

THERAPIST: I said that, on the one hand, you feel you need him, and then, on the other hand, there's a part of you that feels there's a lot of beauty in creating something for yourself, but that it's a conflict.

CLIENT: No, I see that there is beauty in creating something for myself, but there's all this fear of not getting there, falling short, of going astray, of wasting time, is that I need (sighing) that wall, you know (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. [0:42:57]

CLIENT: But yeah, I feel that, that I need it and cannot create my own walls or get so afraid that I don't see that I can create my own walls. (Pause) So much work to be done, like... I'm turning into Chris (laughing).

THERAPIST: How so?

CLIENT: That's... I think that is his... that's his wall right there, you know? That is how he creates structure.

THERAPIST: That there's so much to be done?

CLIENT: Yeah, overwhelmed by work. That's him (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Hmm. Does my suggestion for you to come in an extra time, does that feel overwhelming? [0:43:59]

CLIENT: Yeah, but it's good. It's good to be overwhelmed. I'm learning to like being overwhelmed by stuff to get done (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Hmm. Well, I don't want to encourage you to be overwhelmed, that's not my goal.

CLIENT: (Chuckling) No, well, I don't know. How can I describe it? Like, it's good to be overwhelmed. It's good to... isn't it? Like, you feel important, you feel there's a purpose, you know?

THERAPIST: That's certainly a piece of feeling overwhelmed, is that there are a lot of things that are important for you to do and accomplish.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: We're going to need to stop, and [I want to] (ph)... so what would you like to do? Do you want to... you know, about the extra time, do you want to talk about it next week, or what would you like to do? Do you want to just sort of visit next week, and then we can figure out a schedule from there? [0:45:00]

CLIENT: Sure, whatever works for you, I mean, if you want to... because usually you like to e-mail me times.

THERAPIST: I can. The other piece of it is that I think that the third session...this is... we should... I should take more time to spend than (ph) talk about this in the end of the session.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But I think the third session I would not bill the insurance. I have a feeling that they may reject it. Sometimes if you come to many times a week and you bill the insurance, it's sort of flagged.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: So it's not clear that they're going to deny it, but I think it would be better for that extra time a week if we just work something out. I don't know, in addition to the co-pay with the $70 you were paying before, is that something you could do, you know, pay that $70?

CLIENT: Not...

THERAPIST: Or would that be too much?

CLIENT: Yeah, it's because, I mean, if I got rid of the apartment, then I could work something out. But yeah, right now...

THERAPIST: Well, if you pay the $70 total, the extra session and the two co-pays, would that work out? I'm just going according to what you were paying before. [0:46:01]

CLIENT: Yeah. So $70 plus...

THERAPIST: No, so if you do the $70, which would include the extra session and the two $10 co-pays, is that something you could do?

CLIENT: Yeah, I have to see because that would be $70 per week, right?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm not sure right now because...

THERAPIST: Take a look at... let's try to... I mean, if it's something you really feel would be helpful, we'll figure something out. So let me know... does it make sense, though, with the insurance? I just am concerned they're not going to...

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah, no, that makes sense.

THERAPIST: So think about your budget, and we'll... because, if you feel it will be helpful, then I do think I want to try to make something work for us.

CLIENT: Yeah, but, I mean, if I had that job, I would totally do it (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Hmm. Okay.

CLIENT: But right now, yeah. And we'll talk about...

THERAPIST: Well, let's talk about it. I'll see you on Monday.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Okay, take care.

CLIENT: You, too. (Pause) [A package] (ph).

THERAPIST: Oh, thank you. [0:46:56]

END TRANSCRIPT