TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: Hi.

THERAPIST: Hello.

CLIENT: So, Franklin (ph) came on Saturday. I got the message when I'm like getting ready to leave the house in the morning just like happy or whatever and wait. Let me preface this by saying make sure you remember that I e-mailed him and like we got into that whole thing about the e-mail and then I like listed what I'd like him to please take.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Yeah, there's a whole bunch of stuff and you anticipated that Franklin (ph) wasn't planning to be there for that long; he wasn't going to take a lot of it and you were going to have to deal with it and your (inaudible) was shit again like everything. [00:00:42]

CLIENT: Well, first of all the morning started off very typically with a message from him saying the guy that's helping him now isn't free until one. Okay, whatever. I was already out of the house. I had shit to do. Fine. Well, that leads to another story but, so that he's not coming till one. Then, like ((inaudible) out with Steph like we're shopping, like we had breakfast, like whatever and I get a he called me at one and says that he forgot the key and asks if I'm still home and like, so then I don't know like maybe he was like hoping that I would be home, who knows, but it made me like happier ((inaudible) at 00:01:21) since we broke up and like I know I was like, ‘this is so fucking typical. Like, ‘Jesus Christ, like the one thing you needed to bring was the goddamn keys, like I don't understand.' And luckily my roommate was home so she let him in. Even though he could have just gone back to his house and gotten them, like, so whatever. Okay. Then I guess he does his thing. I don't come back until later that night when literally I came home to like change and go back out and then didn't have a great night Saturday night because me and Steph were supposed to go out, like we looked really cute, whatever, and we ended up going to this party where this guy that she's like not dating but using, whatever, like it's her little distraction so that like the guy that we graduated from high school with she ended up hanging out with that night after the reunion and like had been talking to and they ended up like making out or something and having sleepovers, whatever. I don't think they're sleeping together, but, which is like, whatever, which is weird to me, like ((inaudible) sleepovers. But anyway, to each his own. And we ended up at his house and he lives with this other guy, Aidan, who I also went to high school with and know who is married. Like I really didn't understand, I mean he was living with someone for a while and like had a girlfriend, never met her and went back and married her a few months ago. Hopefully not for like green card purposes I have seen that not work out clearly and, but I guess she's having trouble getting here, so anyway he lives with Aidan, this guy that Steph's so we ended up at their house and like I was really annoyed. I wanted to sleep in my bed. I was like feeling emotional about going home. But I like I still wanted to hang out and I didn't want to be alone and ((inaudible) woman and blah, blah, blah. So I ended up going there, got in a better mood and we smoked a joint, hung out, had another drink, but like I slept really uncomfortably because I was on the couch, like not comfortable. And then I went home Sunday and like literally stayed in my room all day, like wasn't ready to walk around and look, like literally did not look at anything and then Monday went to work, had a difficult day at work because on Saturday in the morning what I did was I went to that oil place that my friend Sergio had suggested I go to talk to his friend. My car was leaking oil so I was like, and then my friend Sergio was like, ‘oh, go to my friend who works at blah, blah, blah. So I went and I asked for the friend and said, ‘Sergio sent me,' like **, cause which was really nice, because honestly, it is nice to have like a ((inaudible) like especially in a garage situation and you're a female. And he basically like took me down under the car and showed me where it was leaking from and suggested I go to the dealership because it will just be a better fix and it's like maybe going to be a $10 difference or maybe $20. So I go there and I ended up renting a car from them for the day because it's the Honda dealer and it's a schlep and whatever, so also the bill was $260 that I don't have so I had to charge it, okay? Then he gives me a whole other laundry list of stuff to do, one of which is tie rods which is linked to the steering -

THERAPIST: This is the guy at the dealership?

CLIENT: Yeah. And I like freaked out and so I was like freaking out on Monday when he called me and told me this and I had a bad day Monday. Then Monday night I was like, all right, I'm going to go through because I wanted to clean my house anyway and **. I was so enraged when I saw how much he left. I mean he took the weight bench and he took his suitcases that I packed and left for him and left all of the garbage that he had collected in the pantry, like all the crates, all the kitty litter container, like random bottles, all this shit that he left, all of his projects he was going to do he was going to build a sound studio recording with the egg he was going to make wine or I don't know the fucking heater for our kit I don't know. All this stuff he never did, obviously. Then, the whole closet in the office like computer screens, old keyboards, two broken Polaroids, the $50 piece of shit video camera that he needed to get off Craig's List because he needed it for projects and never used. Like, literally like a closet of broken dreams and promises and I was like so enraged I was like drinking, I was like having a cocktail, enraged and I think that like being so enraged, like all the adrenalin literally like poured out of the trash and recycling like three trips down the stairs of shit I was putting out on the street that I wasn't going to bother with, like pile of donation, like all this stuff. Right? And he had e-mailed me like, ‘I'm done, like ** and he had the balls to say, oh well earlier I had said it was really nice to hear your voice, like ‘I really miss you and then hearing your voice made me miss you more that's why I told you it would be kind of hard for me to see you and I hope you didn't mean all the things that you said to me the other day because I would never think anything like that about you, you know, and I'll love you forever.' And he wrote back nicely and said like, ‘I could never mean any of those things, I could only ever feel loving towards you,' like, okay, very nice but then (inaudible at [00:06:09] he has the balls to say, ‘I'm done, and whatever I've left you can do what you please with. Maybe you can sell some of it to pay off some of the debt,' like he literally had the balls to write that. And I know in his head he's like, ‘oh, I'm being helpful.' But, first of all it's shit that we never were able to sell together, like we tried to put it on Craig's List a thousand times and have a yard sale and whatever. Second of all it's worth the maybe $300 that I would get from these random computer parts to not have to look up what they would cost, figure out how to sell them it's worth that money to me to not have to do it. Is he kidding me? You're welcome to hang onto this stuff and sell it. Like, while I delete everything that is about you ever. And so, I wrote back and I was like, ‘okay, thanks, blah, blah, blah, whatever. So then I was like, ‘well, thanks for making it that much easier for me to now have closure over you because this is so typical and you are such an asshole for doing this. That's a real asshole move and especially because I specifically had mentioned this shit in the pantry, the egg cartons and the I said, ‘whatever you don't like you can leave on the street or put in the (inaudible) at [00:07:19]. I specifically mentioned those things and he just straight up was like, ‘no, I'm not going to bother.' So, I got it all out in one night. In retrospect, probably some of the computer stuff I probably could have donated or whatever, but I was like so annoyed at it that I like, ‘I'm putting it on the street.' But I did keep some stuff to donate like the video camera and a flash, like one of his many photography parts that he needed so badly to have immediately to have a full collection of shit that he's never going to do anything with. A fucking hoarder. So it really made me mad but really, honestly it did kind of cause a shift in my thinking about like how I was getting over this or whatever, I mean it was definitely helpful to have this stuff out. But just in terms of like him doing that to me was really like, nah, like you just made it a lot easier to like move on right now and that's great and I mean other than like breaking down this week about my car and then I did my January budget and I'm like really tight and just like, I was like wanting to maybe go on a vacation with Steph like during my time off and like just charge it anyway but whatever, but now I can't because I have to do some stuff to the car. My friend, Sergio, was like, ‘I'll call the place where I go, like he's great. I'll talk to them and let them know you're coming and he was very helpful. But I'm just freaking out about do I get a new car, like what do I do and my dad's like, ‘don't fix anything, just drive it till it dies.' I was like, ‘what? No, don't put any more money in it. You've put like $5,000 in it this year and I was like, ‘I know, but like, what if it needs new brakes, like it's winter; tie rods have to do with steering, I'm not sure I want to risk that, Dad. Like, worse I'm still leaking oil because of another thing. And like his thinking, and so my other friend -

THERAPIST: What year's the car?

CLIENT: Two thousand two. It's an old car and I haven't taken good care of it because I haven't known how to take care of a car and (inaudible) at [00:09:11]. But his solution was stupid and my friend Sergio was like who's had a lot of cars and you know has a business that he needs a lot of trucks for because he does real estate and construction stuff and he was like, ‘fix the tie rods and the brakes and like then just change the oil and it should be good for another year. You're probably fine and stop freaking out.' So I'll probably try to do that when I'm off for the three weeks instead of trying to fit it in now because Saturdays are busy at garages, whatever. So I'm just going to wait for that. But I was freaking out about it this week and e-mailed my parents my budget and stuff and like I don't understand how to live, like I don't want to cut out manicures like once or twice a month. I don't want to cut out like whatever grooming stuff, salon, that wrap thing whatever it may be. I don't want to not being going out with my friends and having dinner and drinks and whatever and I don't really know how to budget all this with the debt that I have and the fact that I'm trying to pay over the minimums and having a really high insurance because of an accident I had and the points are not off yet or whatever because it was about seven years ago or whatever the case is. And I guess like my dad and they didn't want to talk about it and whatever but like it's just difficult to talk about it with them because I don't, like they'll tell me to just like not spend as much but I don't know. I don't know how to first of all like I don't know how to budget just like for myself. Like I still have just been kind of just doing whatever I want because I need to enjoy myself. But like budgeting how much groceries I get, whether it's like the money, the budget itself, amounts like I got way to many yogurts that I didn't even eat and I think also the reason I haven't wanted to grocery shop or cook is just that I don't know how to do it for one anymore and like I need to figure that out. You know?

(Pause): [00:11:03 00:11:06]

CLIENT: And I don't know what they're going to suggest, like I really don't know what, you know, I mean my father's already given me $250 a month to help me with stuff, but like I'm still like budget-wise on the spread sheet I like budgeted -

THERAPIST: How far off are you?

CLIENT: Like a hundred bucks but that's like with giving a really low estimate to stuff like dinners out and like miscellaneous like snacks and coffees and whatever, like that's like really low because I don't know. And I got really annoyed at my mom because her suggestion she was like, ‘well, you know, this is not immediately helpful, but it's helpful to budget and just like put in an amount that you think that you would spend on that permanent, but for everything like clothing and everything and then just like try to get as close to that as possible,' and I'm like, what do you think I've been doing the past two years?' And then she was like, ‘well, I mean what you need to start doing is actually keeping track of the actual amounts to see how far off you are at the end of the month and I'm like, ‘what do you think I'm already doing?' She says, ‘wait, you add in like the amounts?' And I was like, ‘yeah, I know exactly how much I spent on dining last month. I know exactly how much I spent on alcohol. I know exactly how much I spent on every fucking little item whether it was on my credit card or on my debit card and so I was like enraged at her for like not having paid attention to me when I talked about budget before, because I've told her all this. I've told her how meticulous I am about writing stuff down every penny and you know wanting to know how much I spent on parking and quarters, you know, and so she didn't pay attention to that and that really annoyed me. We talked a little about how mad I was about her unloading on me and not really like asking to come over, asking how I was or whatever and she like apologized and you know, wants to make more of an effort to do that and so that's fine or whatever. And then Tracy's response was jut like, ‘well we'll sit down and talk about what is appropriate to cut down on and blah, blah, blah and I'm like, ‘you don't know anything, like you don't even wear bras, so if you don't even have that in your budget and you wear clothes from 1985 and don't wear deodorant and don't do any makeup or hair or anything so really like you have no idea how much I should be spending on that, like, at all (laughs).

THERAPIST: (Laughs). [00:13:14]

CLIENT: So for her to say that is like, ‘well why were you spending so much on clothing?' ‘Like, ‘cause it costs money and I do stuff like -

THERAPIST: Is a lot of this it sounds like you have a bunch of additional expenses after you and [by you] (ph) broke up.

CLIENT: Well, it's just that I'm paying all of it by myself now so that's the adjustment. So, whereas I had two incomes and so I wasn't paying for all of it like I paid over the minimums on the credit cards but I wasn't doing all of it, so it like -

THERAPIST: I see. He was helping out.

CLIENT: Yeah. Because all of our stuff was combined and we just split everything down the middle. It all came out of my account and his money went in and then he would take $200 a month for like personal spending money and I would, too. Even though I usually didn't and he usually did because I was the one doing the budgeting and like, whatever. So that's where the struggle is I think coming in now and my mom suggested like as if it's a realistic thought to try to get a third roommate and I was like, ‘what?' First of all the only available room would be right across from mine. Second of all, two bathrooms, one bathroom three people, no; third of all, it's my house. Like I don't want to bring another person like I'm a grown up. Like it's I don't think my landlord would even allow it, or would raise the rent so it would not matter. But I was even annoyed at her for that. I was like, ‘really, mom?' And then I said something that I know was a little bitchy, but like, something along the lines of like, ‘well, maybe for you that would be a realistic situation because you accept the fact that you just let somebody in your house and you really hate living with them and you hate the situation that you're in and you're fine with it because you do it over and over.'

THERAPIST: I think you're really annoyed and pissed off that like nobody's actually helping you out or are there for you kind of in your time of need and mostly what you're getting is stuff that feels very finger-waggy and kind of blaming, treating you as though you're being irresponsible or don't really know what you're doing.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And this is in the wake of a breakup and that sort of you make those changes that go along with that when the irony is that you were always the one who took care of that stuff whereby you within the relationship and once again as in, here we go, nobody's turning around and being there for you, but everybody's just giving you shit, pretty much.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you're pretty annoyed by about it.

CLIENT: It's really annoying and like she even said, my mom's like, ‘I mean look, you've had an expensive few years and you've learned your lesson.' I was like, ‘what?' Like, ‘you bitch.' (Laughs) Okay. Like, ‘you've had your fun, now reel it in,' kind of. And it's like, ‘well, no, you should actually be suggesting that I reel it out because now I should be spending more money on going out and stuff because I actually am doing it with my friends and for like my future, not for like my current relationship.'

THERAPIST: Right. Well, and just for your own well-being.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: In that it's an important time I would think to be seeing friends and doing fun stuff.

CLIENT: Right and don't point out that like these are not big problems and that people are hungry and people don't have houses, like I know, I'm very lucky. I count my blessings that's not what I'm saying but that doesn't mean it's not something that I want to figure out right now and get a handle on.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: And then the other suggestion was getting a new car and I could get something really little and it's like $90 a month and I was like literally rather have no car than be paying a monthly payment for and an insurance premium for an driving around a car that I literally hate. I've gotten accustomed to the car that I have and the like leather and the CD and the good stereo system and all that stuff and I'm not going to be comfortable driving around a little thing, like I guess it's not I would rather not be paying the money for it. I, you know and that's it. So, I do like the suggestion better of yeah, okay, like I can't go on my little vacation because I have to fix my car or whatever, but it is going to run for another year and then maybe I can try to afford something I like better or figure it out then, so great. So, that was another thing that I was like no, I'm not going to do that, like I'm not going to buy a car that I don't like which is not worth it to me. But, yeah, I mean I'm looking for concrete suggestions, not wishy-washy or finger pointing or wagging or whatever. And I'm like literally at a loss, like I don't, I really don't know what to budget for these items that I have. I mean besides my bills, which are the only concrete thing -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: then, I mean if I really, typically am spending as much as I want to be or like whatever, like want to feel free to be spending on like dining out and all that stuff -

THERAPIST: Yeah, how short are you then?

CLIENT: Then I need to lower the minimum payments on my credit cards in order to not be chasing my tail every month, to have that little big of extra money.

(Pause): [00:19:07 00:19:12]

THERAPIST: I guess rather then like even if you didn't change but kept paying your credit cards the way you are now and you dined out as much as you wanted to, how much would you be short?

(Pause): [00:19:28 00:19:31]

CLIENT: Probably like $150, $200.

THERAPIST: That's really quite a lot.

CLIENT: It's not that much but it still makes me like really anxious.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I'm sure it doesn't feel good to be short at all. I don't mean it that way.

CLIENT: Because I'm not saving.

THERAPIST: It's not like a $2,000 shortfall or -

CLIENT: Oh, no.

THERAPIST: You know.

CLIENT: Oh, God, no. That would be a much bigger (inaudible) at [00:19:55] But it's, I hate the idea of living paycheck to paycheck and not having wiggle room and you know, like not really being able to -

THERAPIST: Like whatever raise you get probably would take care of this, right?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: All right.

CLIENT: I don't think so. If I get the raise which they still haven't come to an agreement on since freaking June, then -

THERAPIST: Okay. I didn't even know that was in the (cross talk).

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: I was imagining that was like next (inaudible). I don't know if this may be changed I felt like people would work this way in my line of work (laughter) (inaudible) [00:20:30]

CLIENT: Well, I got a raise -

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: No, no. Last summer, like a year ago I got a raise from like 49 9 to like 51 6, just a merit based raise and that was after I got the raise like the union raise which is usually a small percentage and I think it went from like 47 to 49 9 or something like that.

THERAPIST: I see, yeah.

CLIENT: Then I got the merit based raise but then we were supposed to get our raises in July through the union but they've been in negotiations with the university because they either were trying to raise the amount that they give us or or, it's not university, it's something that's going on that they've been in negotiations and it's a real pain in the ass. But, regardless it would be very -

THERAPIST: Very small.

CLIENT: very small. It would be slightly noticeable but not all that much. But you know I don't like, I hate the fact that like I have to if I'm like in a store I like I can't go shopping with my friends when I'm in a store, ‘oh that's a cute skirt, let me check my (inaudible) card or big account and which I can't afford $20 for a skirt. That's good and that would really make me feel nice. Then like I feel like a brat for saying that, but then I'm like, you know, it's like okay for me to want stuff, I think.

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: I just don't know how to budget for it and I think like I just am very frustrated with my parents because I don't, they really aren't offering me and then they keep like, ‘well we need to sit down and discuss it.' And in the meantime like start wracking your brain because I just sent you all the information in a long-assed really well articulated e-mail about what's going on and what I spend money on and what I want to happen and what my debt is and blah, blah, blah, sent you my budget spreadsheet so you can see what I do and how I work things and what goes to what and where and then you're still like we'll just sit down and discuss it. Like, no, like look at it. Write me an e-mail back, call me.

THERAPIST: You've really thought this through very carefully and very closely.

CLIENT: Yeah and they're like, ‘well, just (inaudible) at [00:22:40]

THERAPIST: happy and you're asking them for help and they're saying, like -

CLIENT: Like, well don't get as many (inaudible) at [00:22:49]

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: When that was not really the issue. It's like the overall -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: thing.

(Pause): [00:22:55 00:22:59]

THERAPIST: And if it was that simple you would have thought of it.

CLIENT: Exactly. I mean I clearly did because I said to them, ‘I'm budgeting really low on this spreadsheet for stuff I spend more than that on so I'm not really sure.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: I'm like this brat in me it's like my father should just pay off like a large chunk of my dad because I know he has the money. Realistically, I'm like mature no.

But, like I still kind of feel like that way about it to a certain extent. And, so well, and then there's that situation of the loan with the jeweler and the whole situation. Did I even tell you this?

THERAPIST: I don't remember it.

CLIENT: Oh, God. So (inaudible) needed a loan, I wanted a loan and like the idiot that I was the entire three years I was like okay and he was paying it back and it was like $3500 from my 401K. So we're paying back ourselves and it's like, I'm paying it back myself and it's like 4 percent or something like that. Then, it turns out that (inaudible) wanted to buy a ring and I like started working with this jeweler that we had gone to talk to about like selling some gold that was the jeweler of my friend who did her wedding rings and like he gave us an education on diamonds and blah, blah, blah. Then I asked about it because like, ‘are you still giving me money, the loan' I don't know, like, ‘what do you want to do with this?' and like he explained the whole thing, that he even talked to the guy Sergio, ‘I'm working with him and blah, blah, blah,' and it's like I've already paid $2400 and I don't know if he had the rest of the $3500 or like spent it or paid it off, whatever, it doesn't matter. I wasn't really paying the loan. And like he asked me to deal with it. ‘Cause like the thing is, the jeweler had like the gold, like had my gold and like this stuff that we were going to sell and whatever and he was like, had all my stuff. And it was like, ‘can you deal with this?' So, luckily like I'd already had a relationship with this guy

‘cause I'd brought jewelry to him to be fixed and whatever and so I called in explaining and he was like, ‘oh, I was wondering why he wasn't calling me back,' or, like (inaudible) at [00:25:12] or whatever, so I had to go there and literally figure it out and he was really nice and gave me back all the money -

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: that (inaudible) paid. And, coincidentally that was exactly the amount that was still owed on the loan, like, I'll have $70 left that was owed on the loan. So I paid that off.

THERAPIST: On the 401K loan.

CLIENT: Yes. So, and then I think he's now going to stop the money that he is sending to my account each month that he was sending to my account to pay that loan because the loan was coming through my account. So, ridiculous. So I paid that. So then there is an option of retaking another loan. I think I can take up to 4500 -

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: from the 401K and put that towards some of the bigger interest credit cards so then I'd be paying a lower interest back to myself which is something my father suggested and I can do that fine, but it's just putting money from one place to another but the debt is still there in other words.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: It paid me in the long run.

THERAPIST: But it's still debt.

CLIENT: Exactly. So, and I have to say, my friend Steph pointed this out and I didn't really think of this before she did it but when I told her the story about (inaudible) teeth and all the dental work and the money and whatever she was like literally, Trina, like you're an amazing person for doing that and not a lot of people would do that and literally he'll think of you every time he opens his mouth and smiles or brushes his teeth for the rest of his life. And I cannot, like you're that happened to me thing, thing to do. And I was like, ‘wow, you're right.' And I hadn't really thought about that. My parents never once said that. They've only like shitted on me for doing that and like haven't even thought of that in the whole process of like why I have more debt because I helped this man save his mouth, basically. And I haven't gotten one ounce of like, ‘well I remember you had that big expense, like maybe we didn't agree with it, but you know that has to do with why you're in more debt now because you don't know we're paying that. It's $12,000 we paid $500 a month for two years with zero interest and we were both paying it. I mean I was always making more money than him and also I didn't mean to do that, like I didn't need to be paying half of it. Like my friend Mandy was actually like, ‘you helped him enough, like by co-signing, you shouldn't be paying for any of it.' But anyway it was there was that issue, too. I don't think about it. There's nothing.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: It's just like you have an expensive few years and you have a lot of the debt is by you and is like blah, blah, blah.

(Pause): [00:27:47 00:27:53]

CLIENT: I even was like maybe I should just tell my dad, ‘whatever amount of money you were going to spend on the wedding that you probably thought was coming up soon with me and [Franklin] (ph) just give it to me. I'll figure it out when I get married which is like I'm not going to do because it's just inappropriate but it would fix things because I'm sure he put aside like a decent amount for that. But, like I'm never going to do that. And then I get an e-mail from my stepmom because she had been like, ‘oh, we'll think of something and that's when I wrote back with like, ‘well, here's all the information you need to help you.' And then she e-mailed me that daddy's going to call you, he's going to reach out to you about this to talk about this more, like I'm not sure why and was like, ‘okay, thanks.' I'll probably hear from him I guess. But this is coming from the man, whatever he has to say, who suggested I drive with a -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: damaged car until it died, to hope for the best. No way. With the snows coming up you may need brakes, the tie rod's broken just drive it, just don't spend any more money on it. Just leak oil through the winter and keep filling it up way more times a month than you really ever will need to. And then the more I fill it up when it has more in it it's going to leak more because there's more pressure to push it out, like there's more volume. So, I don't know, hopefully they'll be able to discuss that with me this weekend and like actually be helpful.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: Things that are just kind of whatever. (Pause) I feel like I have the three weeks off and I'm not going to be able to go away any more which sucks and I really want to and I don't if I'm really disappointed actually, but it's going to be nice because I think that it'll be a good time for me to get back into a routine for myself like figure out how much groceries I should be getting and how much food of each item and figure out what nights I want to cook or what things I like to cook or how to cook single serving meals and get myself into a workout routine and all that. I think it's going to be a really good time to do that, so I'm really looking forward to that and to (inaudible) at 00:30:13] And then I think, I feel like I'm kind of getting myself in a good place to start January's budget and have an idea of how much to spend is really going to solidify me being able to try to move on and start over and do my own thing. I think that that's kind of a like a little (inaudible) at 00:30:31] because I am stressed about money and I feel like if I have a better handle on it, it just makes all those other things in terms of getting my routine in order and all that, easier.

THERAPIST: It would also be nice if somebody had your back a little bit.

CLIENT: Yeah, totally. I still don't know what form that's going to come.

THERAPIST: Right.

(Pause): [00:30:53 00:31:00]

CLIENT: He also, my father also suggested that I could do some work for him around the house to earn a little extra money. I'm like, ‘okay, like why don't you just give it to me? Like, I don't understand, right? Like, schlep books from one place in your house to another? What kind of work?

THERAPIST: Right. Sounds demeaning.

CLIENT: It's like really demeaning. Come clean out my garage. Here's 50 bucks. [Go to hell] (ph) right?

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: No. Thanks. I'm curious to see what they'll have to say. I mean, yeah, like I do, did learn a lot then, but that's not the point. The point is, ‘well, you learned your lesson, now suffer with budgeting, insane budget for yourself.' Like, ‘you learned a lesson now let's hope you get in a position that when this is paid down you have an idea of what's appropriate to spend on what.' That's the lesson, like help me. (Sigh).

THERAPIST: Yeah, it sounds like you just need some help, it sounds like you've been pretty consistently clear about what you're spending on what and where it's going, when you have enough or when you're short.

CLIENT: And my mom's like, ‘what's this miscellaneous category?' And like in parentheses I wrote, ‘like snacks, etc.,' because it's a miscellaneous category like I go out and buy coffee, I go out and buy some snacks. I go out and buy whatever, or I don't remember what I spent that $50 on that I had in cash. It goes in the miscellaneous category. It has to go somewhere. I mean, like I don't know what she wants me to say.

(Pause): [00:32:47 00:32:58]

THERAPIST: You know? I wonder about something.

CLIENT: What is that?

THERAPIST: I wonder to what extent you're setting yourself up.

CLIENT: Meaning?

THERAPIST: Well, I bet if I asked you two months ago, okay, Trina, what's going to happen if you, you know, show your budget to your parents, give them an explanation and explain why you need help and show them everything that's going on, how are they going to react? I bet you could have predicted it. I mean these are your parents and you know them pretty well.

CLIENT: Yeah, would say, ‘are you spending too much on x,y,z?'

THERAPIST: Yeah, that they would probably at least in part be pains in the ass and always be pains in the ass, you know, at least treating you like you're irresponsible, like you're not thinking about this, like the solution is probably obvious, you just haven't thought of it, or thought enough about it, making you feel worse about it, not just helping you out. I imagine that you probably could have anticipated that they would have reacted that way.

CLIENT: Definitely.

THERAPIST: And I wonder if there's even a way like I know that like constantly your intent in showing them your spreadsheet and giving them probably really detailed explanations of what's going on, your intent there was to show them that you are being responsible. But I wonder if it had the opposite effect.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I wonder if sort of, if it's infantilizing yourself a little bit which is what you're angry I think with what they're doing to you. In other words, if you just I'm just making this up and maybe this is a (inaudible) at 00:34:42] to think about it, but I wonder if you'd just sort of had gone to them and said, ‘look, you know, my picture's changed, [Franklin] (ph) left and I've got a roommate which is (inaudible) but you know, I'm a little bit short and here's about how much help I need. Can you help me out or not? You know, whether there's a way in which that actually sort of would convey sort of more ownership and more being on top of it which in fact you are, but I can imagine you're sort of bringing everything to them and sort of on one hand in an effort to show them that you're on top of it, is actually in a way like a bit infantilizing to yourself and maybe even sort of pulling a little bit for the kind of responses that they're giving you?

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean that I think that I definitely thought about it and think that. Realize that, like ‘oh, God, I'm sending them my budget.' But I mean also I felt weird making like a straight out plea like for some help because he already did that, he's giving me the 250 a month -

THERAPIST: Starting -

CLIENT: October.

THERAPIST: Just recently then.

CLIENT: Oh yeah, yeah. Just recently.

THERAPIST: In response to -

CLIENT: Me saying it's hard once when [Franklin] (ph) left and my financial situation is different.

THERAPIST: Right. And in that case he didn't actually ask you a bunch of questions or anything. He just said, ‘okay, sure.'

CLIENT: Yeah, it was like this is how much I have, I'm having some trouble with it because I'm paying over the minimums and whatever, and then he's well, actually the money my dad suggested, my mother actually told him, ‘like you need to start, you need to give Trina some money.' Actually, actually, Tracy's suggestion remember was to get me a membership to a synagogue.

THERAPIST: I vaguely remember that.

CLIENT: And (inaudible) at 00:36:26] I was like that's not an expense that I struggle with apparently (laughs). And then my mom told him to give me money. So I think that's why that came from there, but also I think it's also coming from a place of like I don't really know how much -

THERAPIST: But why don't you really know how much?

CLIENT: Like what I should try to budget?

THERAPIST: Well, why not?

CLIENT: Because I just want to be able to go out to dinner and whenever I want, and like buy wine and whatever any time. I want to be able to do that and like -

THERAPIST: What about that -

(Pause): [00:37:04 00:37:12]

THERAPIST: You've done a lot of very (inaudible) things, like why can't I don't understand like what, why you can get something you can't figure out how to reconcile?

CLIENT: Because I don't have enough money.

THERAPIST: That part I understand. But -

(Pause): [00:37:25 00:37:30]

THERAPIST: I think it's (inaudible) to say, ‘well look, I don't know how much I should be spending on these things and you know I just want to be able to do it as much as I want. Okay. Sure, that makes sense. That's not hard to understand.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Like, are you asking them for help in budgeting or are you just asking them for money?

CLIENT: (Exhalation, laugh)

THERAPIST: And if you're asking them for help with budgeting I don't understand why, because I don't know why you can't figure this stuff out, because you just said it's harder now all the time.

(Pause): [00:37:59 00:38:02]

CLIENT: Because I guess I'm asking them for money, I guess.

THERAPIST: Okay. You're asking them for money but not help with thinking out a budget.

CLIENT: I mean I think it would be helpful to hear what their thoughts are on what makes be wise and like (cross talk) will help me more in the future

THERAPIST: I think that's what they tell you.

CLIENT: I don't know. I mean I don't spend $300 a month on dinner but -

THERAPIST: How do they know that any better than you? You know that better than -

CLIENT: Exactly. But I'm much cooler than they ever were so -

THERAPIST: Right. (Laughter)

CLIENT: Those are the facts.

THERAPIST: I guess my point is that it seems that half of you is kind of affronted by the way they're (cross talk) (inaudible) at 00:38:43]

CLIENT: That maybe if they're responding -

THERAPIST: are coming at them. Yeah, and also what you seem to be thinking of yourself in a way like that you can't figure out what the right amount to spend on dinner is. I mean that I get it that you want to go any place you want, but part of what you're asking them is this reasonable, is this not reasonable? You don't even think they're going to know any better? But in some way you kind of want to reach for -

CLIENT: But in other ways it's literally like, ‘can you guys pay my credit card bills every month?' And I feel really bad saying that like I just don't feel right and I feel like they're going to be like, ‘well, no.' Like, ‘you got yourself into this.'

THERAPIST: Well, ah, then why wouldn't that be the conversation you'd -

CLIENT: In other words like -

THERAPIST: if that's what they come back with, ‘here's how I got into it, you know, [Franklin] (ph) and his teeth and blah, blah, blah. Again, there's this like presumption that you're being irresponsible about things. Which at another level you don't actually think you are because you (inaudible) somebody think that.

CLIENT: Yeah, and then there's this whole other dynamic involving my mother having resentment towards my father because he never gave her enough money and he doesn't now, he doesn't give enough for Jason or whatever, and then there's the Tracy piece where she's tight with like -

THERAPIST: Everything?

CLIENT: Yeah. Well, not cheap like we go out to dinner like way more than anybody that I know, but she's like got my dad on a tight leash, basically, so if she weren't around I would have been asking like, ‘could I just have $500 a month, please? Thanks.' Like, but with her there -

THERAPIST: He (inaudible) at 00:40:30]

CLIENT: I am nervous about that because I'm afraid that she said, ‘well, we can't do that,' or something.

THERAPIST: And would he (inaudible) her saying that?

CLIENT: I don't know. Maybe I feel like -

THERAPIST: It sounds like there's something very shaming about it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That I'm not sure quite what, though like concerning the way you sort of parroted her response, or what your fantasy of what her response is (inaudible), ‘oh, my God, you're being ridiculous,' has an outrageous quality to it.

CLIENT: Like, ‘you're 28 years old and we're not going to pay your credit card debt for you. We're already paying your school,' you know?

THERAPIST: And tell me what's so shameful about asking for that? I don't mean that they should pay it, I just there's clearly that you feel really bad about asking them.

CLIENT: Because I feel bad for having spent that much on credit cards and having been irresponsible and whatever.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: But on the other hand I'm being responsible by recognizing that, like -

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: needing to figure out a way how to deal with my finances, I think.

THERAPIST: I see.

(Pause): [00:41:54 00:41:58]

THERAPIST: It sounds like in a way, in that way you're sort of of two minds about how you've been and I think you're playing it out with them a little bit. I'm not saying that intending to, like left them off the hook or saying that they should act the way they do, I'm not trying to say that this is all about you playing (inaudible) out with them. It does seem to me that that's an important part of it.

CLIENT: Yeah. So this is helpful though because this is giving me a lot to think about in terms of like when I do have (inaudible) with them, I have them.

THERAPIST: Okay. To me, one thing that's very important that is you kind have reconcile with yourself about how you've been. It seems like you have this sort of that you're pretty ashamed and angry with yourself for how you've been about money at times in ways that I think is pretty hard to think about. It's still bad and you don't want to think about it like that.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: You'd rather focus on your efforts to be on top of things now.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: And yourself as a responsible person in this way even though you also kind of have this other impression of yourself as well and it feels like it's the one you're kind of inviting them to take on and get angry about.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think it will be good to have a discussion with them about it. But realistically, if they don't offer to give me any money which is totally, which is a possibility or whatever, then I am going to have to make a decision to lower some of my monthly payments because they're like I just what's going to have to happen and so that's what I think I'm going to have to think about as the option for me and maybe doing the 401K thing so I don't have to have 14 percent on the cards.

THERAPIST: Lower interest rate.

CLIENT: Exactly.

THERAPIST: (inaudible)

CLIENT: So, next Friday? And then I'm off. So Friday's a half-day of work next week and then I'm not going back in till the 14th.

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But I think that keeping our schedule is fine. I know that I'm going to New York a few times, but it may not necessarily be over the weekend.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: But I'm going to start planning out dates in the next week so that maybe next week when we meet I can -

THERAPIST: Sure. I also, I know I'm going to be in for a couple of days between Christmas and New Year's but I'm not sure if I'm going to be in on a Friday, yet.

CLIENT: The Friday aft -

THERAPIST: A week from today?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Can I let you know that next week?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. That's fine.

THERAPIST: It's like I'll have time to meet on Wednesday or Thursday if it will be helpful with that.

CLIENT: Okay, yeah, I'll be around and not at work so I'll just be able to come into the square. Okay. All right. Thank you. I'll be in next week.

END TRANSCRIPT