TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

(lots of garble and background noise until 00:06:40)

THERAPIST: Hi. Come on in.

CLIENT: Sorry I'm late. I don't know remember where we -

THERAPIST: I'm sorry?

CLIENT: I don't remember what we talked about last time. What's happened since then. (laugh)

(very long pause) (sigh) What we talked about when we first start and [00:08:04]

(long pause) I guess sometimes I have like, I'm unable to collect my thoughts quickly. (laugh) I guess that's what happens some mornings. (sigh) I'm just having a fear I guess or an anxiety, you know and that fear gets the best of me sometimes. I'm not really sure how to overcome it. [00:09:20]

(sigh) (very long pause until 00:10:24) I'm still remember (laugh) what we talked about last time, it's just. We don't have time to do that now completely like, where do I start? (laughing) Sorry. [00:10:40]

THERAPIST: Well, that was one of the things we were talking about. Just this feeling of feeling lost.

CLIENT: Yeah. (laugh) (sigh) (long pause) I don't know, maybe I like can, like feel lost. (laugh) That's why I don't want to completely feel the structure and ungrounded all the time. I'm not sure. [00:11:29]

You said something that I didn't quite understand last time. I think you said I'm good at making use of people? Or I'm not sure. I, maybe you don't remember (laugh) it now. [00:12:06]

THERAPIST: Yeah. I'm not sure I know what you're referring to. I'm not sure how I said it but, I think I was maybe referring to Chris. Maybe your program too. That you're sort of looking to them and you use them. I don't mean it in a pejorative sense -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: To help provide some structure. Some guidance. [00:12:34]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Orientation.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It certainly is what you looked for in Chris and I think it's what you're looking for in getting another, the same degree.

CLIENT: Well, yeah. (laugh) Yes. I feel kind of badly about that. I feel ashamed like when people ask me what I'm doing. I'm a student. And like I say that happily, that I'm a student. (laugh) Only because I'm not working. [00:13:05]

But I do feel ashamed that like what you know, everyone was saying. Why can't you just provide your own structure. Your own deadlines and this and that. And I feel mistreated so and like you know I couldn't create my own community you know, and. Because that's another thing that I'm getting from him. But there are other things also like him that, home contacts and just more guidance from faculty and teachers. I don' know. [00:13:52]

I guess I'm trying not to think too much about, oh no, you know, I failed. Or why I couldn't I do it by myself. Like maybe I should just accept it that I could not. People always says that it's my weakness. It's a big one. (laugh) What would I do about it? You know I just get on with it, you know. (laugh) [00:14:18]

So. But maybe I should do something about it, and like learn to have my own everything inside me. (laugh) Because you know, people do it. Everyone does it you know. They sit down and they make a plan. And it's all good and you know. (sigh)[00:14:45]

THERAPIST: All those seem like too extremes. Like between having everything inside you and feeling like you know, kind of you're adrift in evaluating people.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean everybody needs people -

CLIENT: (laughing)

THERAPIST: To provide meaning and context for their life.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And recognition.

CLIENT: Yeah, I know. I mean I wasn't getting anything from, well, yeah, I guess you're right. I did see it as extremes. Because like, I was completely holed up (laugh) and I didn't have, I didn't even have Chris because he was, you know away teaching, so.[00:15:42]

So I went from that to you know, back into a program where, I got everything that I didn't have. I got community and feedback and recognition. And I don't know. (laugh) So. (pause) [00:16:06]

At least I'm trying to learn to be balanced. Like (pause) Like this weekend I was a little sad because I was thinking about like, Victor, it was his birthday and I didn't, well I bought a book for him long ago (laugh) but I didn't want to you know, meet and give it to him. And I didn't I e-mailed him and said Happy Birthday. But I didn't let him know that I bought anything for him. [00:16:45]

And then I kind of just realizing, because earlier I thought oh, no, oh no, he has no friends and you are lonely and this and that. Then you know, this weekend it kind of occurred to me that he's probably not. He is emotionally sufficient in taking care of himself. He doesn't need me. And that hurt a lot. And I was crying. But I had work to do, so. [00:17:14]

I think I I guess I'm trying to say that I wasn't, I was able to somewhat like find the inner resources to deal with that disappointment, you know. And I recognized that you know, I was hold up for two days working on a paper, which is why I might have felt a little lonely myself. So, when I went down with some people and had a discussion with them, you know. (laugh) [00:17:53]

That made me feel like, oh yeah, so, so what you know. He's moving on, you know, I'm moving on. And he has his friends and work, and I have my own too. (laugh) Nothing disastrous has happened. (laugh) [00:18:12]

I don't know. I don't know if this makes sense, but that way, is like what balanced kind of view would look like? I know you need people for, I don't know, when you're sad and lonely. So you don't like abuse it or take advantage of them. You just completely break down and are unable to deal with yourself without them. Right? (laugh) [00:18:38]

THERAPIST: Does it feel like an abuse?

CLIENT: I feel like I may, I mean I might have abused Victor a little bit. Not abused as in like verbally or physically (laugh) obviously. But you know like, abused in the sense of used him too much, or leaned on him too much. [00:19:01]

So, I think we've talked about this before, that you know because I have an emotional connection with him, I felt like maybe I just completely, leaned on him. (laugh) And then I fell flat. (laugh) But [00:19:22]

Well yeah, it is a very like, demanding task for me to create my own structure. It takes you know (laugh) I feel like I should have been in the military for like a year to be able to learn that regime. I know you're thinking another extreme. (laughing) But [00:19:54]

THERAPIST: Is that what I'm thinking?

CLIENT: I don't know, I feel like that's, I operate in that way, so. Between extremes. But you weren't thinking that? [00:20:10]

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Hum.

THERAPIST: I was thinking what the childhood equivalent of a military is.

CLIENT: Well like I guess parents who would have provided love, but you know, tough love. I think I see structure and discipline. [00:20:39]

THERAPIST: Did you feel like there wasn't much discipline growing up?

CLIENT: It was weird. It was really weird. Like it was pad tea. (laughing) I feel sorry for my parents. Because now I'm like, oh, it isn't easy to be a parent. So for them. I think my mom was very lenient when I was with, just with her. And then my dad came back. There were moments when he like would lose all his sanity. Just go completely ballistic if I did something wrong. Like one time I stole like five rupees, and. [00:21:17]

And it was just (sigh) kind of you know, like outside of school there are these vendors that sell all kinds of junk food, but it's you know much better junk food. It's not like synthetic or whatever. It's you know like organic (laugh) junk food. Cakes and biscuits and it would be so tempting to like take a walk by them every single day for years and not have any money to buy those goods, you know, goodies. [00:21:47]

So one day I just went all out and you know, stole five rupees. And I was like I can have a feast. (laughing) Some stupid girl, you know, caught me and went straight to my mom because she was missing she was teaching in the same school but a different grade. She went straight to my mom and told. And my mom was made so mad that she punished me in her classroom, and. [00:22:16]

And that was fine you know. But then when she -

THERAPIST: She punished you in her classroom?

CLIENT: Well like she said, you know I have to like lean down and hold my ears. But that was fine, but. [00:22:30]

THERAPIST: But why in her classroom? Was she your teacher?

CLIENT: No, she taught like fifth grade and I was maybe in first grade or second grade, but. But I mean like her you know, punishment wasn't improper, you know. But then when I got home and my dad found out, he beat me so much like my ears bled and I peed in my pants. (laugh) And then like I wasn't even allowed to go to school the next day. That I thought was very, very severe. [00:22:59]

So I mean that's what I mean about patchy like, you know. I was free to do whatever I wanted most of the time. But then when my dad was with us and he was in a very bad mood and I would get blamed and the beating of my life for something. [00:23:16]

THERAPIST: Why weren't you allowed to go to school the next day?

CLIENT: I don't know. He wanted me to learn a very, very good lesson. (laugh) You know. Yeah, I definitely didn't steal from home again. (laugh) Yeah. [00:23:33]

THERAPIST: My association is that he didn't want to see, the teachers to see the marks on you or whatever he did to you.

CLIENT: No, I don't think so. Well like it's a different culture, so I suppose. I mean back then it was even more like, even teachers would hit us for once what like hitting children is not considered that severity like. [00:23:58]

THERAPIST: Was that the only time he beat you?

CLIENT: No, there were others. (laugh) So. [00:24:06]

THERAPIST: Under what circumstances?

CLIENT: Hum, I don't know different ones I guess. One time, this was, I was in ninth grade or something, and like he, I was in exam time, so but there was this, and I want, I always wanted to watch TV. (laugh) By then there were more channels and you know stuff, and. But he would forbid me to watch TV. And we had two rooms and I would sleep in like the bigger room with my mom. And then he had his own bedroom. And he went away one evening and there was this movie on TV that I really wanted to watch. So I snuck into his room and I was watching, and I didn't turn on the lights because I thought, you know if he's back any second, he might be able to see the light from the road. [00:25:08]

But I don't know, somehow he found out that I watched TV. And then he beat me and like the thing was, he was really angry. And the next morning he was like, he didn't let me go to school to give my exams. Then I eventually went because my mom came back somehow miraculously, or something happened where I was like contemplating if I could jump out of the window because I was actually not going to not take my exam, you know. [00:25:48]

But it was pretty closed there. I was just terrified. I was like this guy's not going to let me go and take my exams. That was very, very scary, much more than the being hit and stuff. [00:26:04]

THERAPIST: The exam was important?

CLIENT: Oh yeah. Well, like for me, yeah like school and studies are the only, I didn't really study much, but (laugh) still you know, being there with people is, you know nice to have. Because at home things are so ridiculous, so. [00:26:28]

THERAPIST: What did your mom do when your dad beat you?

CLIENT: Well sometimes, I think she tried to intervene and said you know, let her go, you know, and don't do this, and, yeah. I don't know, it feels so weird because I'm like you know, kids have to be disciplined. And you know if I did something wrong, I should be disciplined, you know. But it became such a dramatic thing, you know. Like it was so ugly, you know. Because it was not in the right amount. Or it was not you know, frequent enough. Or you know, it was all like up and down, up and down, up and down, you know. [00:27:19]

There was no steadiness and no, yeah, so. (long pause) Do kids like, do people like harbor resentment towards their parents if they've been beaten by them? [00:27:56]

THERAPIST: Absolutely.

CLIENT: I don't know. Because I feel like I still have resentment from being you know beaten. (laugh) I shouldn't, but. [00:28:07]

THERAPIST: Is that why you asked if it was normal?

CLIENT: Yeah. Because I'm like, you know I did something wrong and I did something I wasn't supposed to do, so why do I feel bad, but, I do. (laugh) [00:28:27]

THERAPIST: Well there are ways of disciplining a child without harming them.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean like not allowing to give my exam would be like very harming. [00:28:43]

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: (laugh) Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's also quite odd. I mean usually parents take away TV privileges or something. To take away school is kind of an odd punishment.

CLIENT: Yeah. Maybe he knew it was important to me. (laugh) I don't know. And you know kids struggle so much. They compare themselves to other kids so much. It's like that's how they define everything. You know, how cool they are, how they live and you know. I just, I remember that, that you know like when I finally got to the school I saw everyone and I felt like wow, it must have. Now I know it's probably not correct, but I thought you know everyone is so calm and peaceful and they probably have a very nice evening. They studied, and you know they had good food and they are all well dressed and are ready to take the exam. And here I am and I'm late. (laugh) And I almost, I almost had to jump out of the window to come here. [00:29:56]

I don't know. I don't know, I feel like other kids had a lot of plasticity. You know like they were able to bounce back. I'm sure they were beaten by their parents. I'm sure it was as intense as my beatings. But I don't know, I feel like they, like my classmates may have had just the ability to brush it off and forget about it. [00:30:31]

THERAPIST: Was it common for kids to be beaten when you were a kid?

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. Like our principal like, publically would beat a student on like the smallest of items, yeah. And you know I was never I was only punished once and that was when, well not beaten actually, but. Like yeah, like older, but not older, taller boys (laugh) would be beaten and. [00:31:07]

THERAPIST: Why taller boys?

CLIENT: Oh I'm just, I was just you know like this is how your memory works. You're like, you know there are all these height variations and the tallest girls and boys would sit in the back. And so for some reason you think that they must be like older or something (laugh) because they looked more grown up then you. [00:31:39]

THERAPIST: But this is a common theme for you. That you feel like everybody sort of has problems, but somehow you're just more inept at dealing with them.

CLIENT: Yeah. (laugh) You know I fell like it's been pointed out to me by a lot of people. [00:31:58]

THERAPIST: Who's that? Who's a lot of people?

CLIENT: (laugh) Well like Victor, Chris and other friends who are not my friends anymore (laugh) you know. I feel like they keep saying that I'm childish or this or that. That's how I feel. And I've been noticing that you know like if I have a sad thought or something happened to me, I wonder if I can go into the corner and deal with it and bounce back. And be fine, you know. [00:32:40]

You know like with this magazine thing like two weeks ago. I mean it wasn't a rejection. But so instead you know like it was a negative answer for now. And I just went completely, you know. I fell apart. And you know I bothered my teacher and secretary and you and Chris and (laugh) as many people as I could find that day. (laughing) [00:33:14]

THERAPIST: What do you mean bothered? You bothered us?

CLIENT: Well, I bothered Chris for sure. He was upset. And he was to the point of breaking up with me. And my teacher was worried, she's like you're going to be okay, right? (laugh) So I feel like I couldn't take that e-mail into perspective and deal with it on my own without involving everyone. [00:33:49]

THERPAIST: You were looking for some comfort and support.

CLIENT: Yeah, but why can't I look for it here.

THERAPIST: Can't you look for it both places?

CLIENT: Yeah, but I should look for it first here. I don't know, I just want to be like this very, very strong, where you can take anything. (laugh) And feel like I am far from being that. So you find it odd that I keep saying other people have more abilities to deal with? [00:34:29]

THERAPIST: Very, very odd.

CLIENT: (Laughing)

THERAPIST: It's highly odd.

CLIENT: (Laughing)

THERAPIST: It's extremely abnormal.

CLIENT: Well, okay. I don't know. [00:34:40]

THERAPIST: Can't something just be?

CLIENT: Be? (laugh)

THERAPIST: Like that's an observation and if it's something that you agree with great, and let it be an observation that we would talk about.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That you want to do something with it. Like is that normal? Or is that okay? Or I don't. You know it's like you can't let it be what it is?

CLIENT: Yeah. Well at first I, first of all I assume that you know, maybe you're bringing it up because it's an issue that we could work on. [00:35:18]

THERAPIST: Yes. That's true.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That's absolutely true.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That there are often implications to my observations. Yes. But where you go with it is, well that must be odd, like that must be really terrible.

CLIENT: (laughing)

THERAPIST: That's what I mean by be.

CLIENT: Yeah. (sigh) Well, I don't know.

THERAPIST: But it sounds like when you were a kid you had a lot of fantasies about what other peoples' lives were like. And they were a bit of a black box. But you put a lot of fantasy in those black boxes.

CLIENT: Yeah. Do kids put nasty stuff in the black boxes? (laugh) [00:36:09]

THERAPIST: I don't know.

CLIENT: No, I yeah. Yeah, well yeah, I mean it's I guess it could be bad if I do that because it could lead to resentment that oh you guys must just have and very peachy. You know? [00:36:35]

THERAPIST: That's true. I think it certainly can lead to resentment. It seems like the way you're sort of holding out hope though. Like things can be. It's not like life is just an awful place and everybody's household suck as much as you do.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And somehow there's a better life. Even if you're excluded from it. That there's a better life. So it seems like kind of one way of thinking about it is a way to hold out hope.

CLIENT: What do you mean hold out? [00:37:02]

THERAPIST: Well if you assume that everybody's life sucks, there's no hope. Right? It's just a terrible world. But if you imagine there's a better world out there, even if it's not one that you have access to, there's kind of a hopeful quality to it. Like it's not that the whole world sucks, it's just that your life sucks.

CLIENT: Yeah. Maybe it was a way of dealing with my own, you know household. (laugh) That I imagined. You know all those ads on TV were you know, the houses are big and beautiful, and the mom is all, you know kind of like in the 50's here. The same kind of principle is there. And the 80's and 90's in India were you know, mom was hard working and she's caring for the children and the dad comes home with a briefcase. (laugh) So all the, you know images, they do help you construct a kind of alternate reality. And yeah. [00:38:14]

THERAPIST: Well and it creates a sense of order in the world.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And that when there's an order there's not sort of this random chaos. A father coming and going. And sometimes in pieces and sometimes violence.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And a mother who's sort of bereft.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: With a life that could have been but isn't.

CLIENT: Yeah. (laugh) Yeah. It's a pity that when I got to my graduate school first time we kind of brushed over the structure lists. Because you know there was the full structure list and then there was a you know a daily done one, so. (laugh) We're not to take this discussion into the higher, I kind of think about what our times are like, but. [00:39:24]

I guess what you're saying is I'm a hopeful person, so. (laugh) Yeah. I think I am. I mean I just have to focus on being more of that, you know. To accentuate the positive. [00:39:44]

THERAPIST: Well and I've heard you vacillate between feeling like there is a beauty out there from which you will always be excluded. And then sort of like feeling like kind of empowered. That you could create that for yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean I guess I'm trying to see my limits because you know everything that I feel that I'm excluded from, well, maybe not everything, but most things I feel excluded from I try in times of when I'm feeling positive to create that. And like community and this and that. I'm like I always throw parties for people and you know like, so I can create my own sense of you know like, a welcoming environment and you know, food and laughter and conversation. (sigh) [00:40:41]

Oh well, but when I'm feeling (laugh) very, very negative or sad or something, it's just hard to pick myself up and like remember that I was hopeful not long ago. And that things will change. That is like, that is a hard lesson. But I have to, I don't know, maybe I'm learning it, so. [00:41:07]

THERAPIST: Um-hum.

CLIENT: To be, to remember that this negative time won't last forever and it's not a permanent state. I guess that's what you meant when you said like, you have this feeling that the desperation that you know, that this, it turns, this will last an eternity or something? [00:41:40]

THERAPIST: Um-hum. I think that's what desperation is. Is there like an urgency that things must change because there's not a hope that things will at some point change.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like there's only now. You know that's what desperation appears, like there's only now.

CLIENT: Yeah. Hum. I kind of miss not (laugh) feeling desperate I guess. You know when you feel something so intensely. You know, it's quite a high. Even though it's quite a low, you know? I feel old and boring if I don't. Thinking about not feeling desperate. (laughing) [00:42:45]

THERAPIST: I think there's an enlivening quality about it.

CLIENT: Enlivening?

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: Oh yeah. About feeling desperate. Yeah, you know. Yeah. But it does wreck havoc in your life. (laugh) And on other people's lives or maybe it's best disposed of. (long pause) But maybe the other way is that adults have of, or older people (laugh) have of feeling alive. Feeling that intense moment, I don't know [00:43:54]

THERAPIST: I think that's true. I don't think that desperation is the only way to feel enlivened. Or to feel so intensely about life.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I think you sort of associate Victor with a type of desperation. And the alternative is Chris who represents an adult, but boring.

CLIENT: (laughing) Yeah. Like Steadyyyyyyyyy! All proud you know, no fluctuation. (laugh) Sort of. (pause) I don't know. I'm stuck. [00:44:43]

THERAPIST: We really need to stop for the afternoon.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I'm so I'm not going to be here next Monday again.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I'll be here in. I'll be here throughout the holidays, just not next Monday. Would you like a I will be here from Wednesday on if you'd like to find a second time to meet next week.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: If you would like that, let me take a look.

CLIENT: So, we're meeting on Wednesday?

THERAPIST: Wednesday, yeah. The only day that is effected for me by the holiday is next Monday.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: Otherwise I'm here. But I will be here next Thursday and Friday.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: Would you be, let's see would you like to come in, I have an early afternoon on Thursday at 1:20, or I have a Friday at 11:20.

CLIENT: Yeah. Either one. 11:20 I guess.

THERAPIST: On Friday. Would you like that?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAIST: Okay. So, okay.

CLIENT: Okay, thank you.

THERAPIST: Sure.

CLIENT: Have a nice couple of days off.

THERAPIST: Thank you. And we've definitely gone over a lot. Take care.

CLIENT: You too.

THERAPIST: Bye.

END TRANSCRIPT