TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi, come on in (inaudible at 0:00:16).

CLIENT: How are you?

THERAPIST: Good, thank you.

CLIENT: Did you have a good Christmas?

THERAPIST: I did, thank you very much.

CLIENT: Were you here, or...?

THERAPIST: I was in Ohio.

CLIENT: Oh, nice! City?

THERAPIST: Yeah.

CLIENT: Oh cool. Are you from there, or...?

THERAPIST: Originally, right outside.

CLIENT: Oh, where from?

THERAPIST: Oxford.

CLIENT: I used to live in Cincinnati when I lived in Ohio.

THERAPIST: Oh yeah?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: When you were at Dartmouth?

CLIENT: Columbia. [0:00:57]

THERAPIST: Oh, you were at Columbia, that's right.

CLIENT: (Chuckling)

THERAPIST: Cincinnati is great.

CLIENT: Yeah, it's apparently the most diverse section... or most [healing world] (ph) section in the US (chuckling)...

THERAPIST: Really?

CLIENT: Or probably the world, yeah. At the train you hear more languages in one space than anywhere else (chuckling).

THERAPIST: My family lived in Cincinnati for a long time.

CLIENT: Yeah?

THERAPIST: 60s and 70s.

CLIENT: Wow. I miss it, but I like D.C. (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm. It's very different.

CLIENT: Yeah, people are more snobby here, I guess (chuckling)? Or that's what I hear, but I have to read DCites to really kind of have more of a historical idea for D.C. (chuckling, sighing). Was it pretty? Was Ohio pretty? [0:01:58]

THERAPIST: Yeah. It's Ohio at Christmas. It's crowded.

CLIENT: Yeah? That's good. This place was not crowded. It was completely deserted (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Because... I'm sorry?

CLIENT: It was completely deserted, the Square and everywhere else. It was kind of depressing to see that (chuckling, clearing throat).

THERAPIST: And what about that seemed depressing?

CLIENT: I don't know, it's just there's no one around, and all the shops are shut. I guess I miss Nepal when I think of that because, well, first of all it never gets this cold. So then, festivals, and just even generally people are very different in relationship with public spaces. Like, you just see a lot more people out. [0:02:56] And festival time, definitely, there's more celebration outside than inside? It's like more of a spectacle, and there's a lot of spectacles, you know? Like, you must have heard of people taking statues to the ocean and all... so that. And a lot of other aspects or other ways of making a big spectacle out of festivals (chuckling). (Pause) (Clearing throat) [0:03:59] Yeah, if at all possible, I want to live in Ohio (chuckling), if I can ever afford it again, just to be around as many people as possible. (Sighing) (Pause) So...

THERAPIST: It sounds like you feel more isolated here.

CLIENT: In the US, or...?

THERAPIST: US and then particularly in D.C..

CLIENT: Well, there's isolation everywhere. I just feel like... sometimes I feel like a bottomless pit (chuckling). I just will not be happy no matter what. [0:05:00] Like, I had a nice holiday. Like, usually most years it's just me, my mom, and Chris (sp?), and it gets really sad (chuckling). But this time I had a party with my roommates and their friends on the 24th, and then yesterday also Chris and I went to some people's place. Still, I felt kind of general sadness about everything (chuckling), so yeah. I just was waiting for it to be, I don't know... for the break to get over (chuckling). I wonder if I should live more in anticipation of things. [0:06:00] Maybe that'll make me happier (chuckling, clearing throat, sniffing).

THERAPIST: Did you like the parties?

CLIENT: They were okay (chuckling, sniffing). I mean, it was nice food. I had to do a lot of work, for the first one at least (chuckling). I don't know. I wasn't 100% there. I don't know why (sniffing). (Pause) [0:07:00] Yeah, and it makes me sad that I cannot be engaged in certain situations as much as I would want myself to be engaged. I don't know (clearing throat, sniffing). But I guess that's true for everyone, right? Like, so you go somewhere and you may not be 100% engaged all the time, but, for example, if someone asks you a question about your work or says something that strikes your interest, then you become 100% engaged, right? Is that how other people experience it (chuckling), or...?

THERAPIST: [I don't know] (ph).

CLIENT: I just wondered.

THERAPIST: Does it worry you that you're not 100% engaged?

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean (blowing nose), I wish it was just that, oh, I'm not engaged, and that's fine. [0:08:01] But I worry that I'm not, and I feel bad and (sniffing) try to make myself interested. But when it doesn't happen I feel disappointed in myself. Yeah. (Pause) Maybe I just have a lot of anxiety about my own things. That's why I'm not engaged. That could be it. There could be, like, a thick layer of glass separating me from everything (chuckling). [0:08:59] Just wish I could... sorry, go ahead.

THERAPIST: Go ahead.

CLIENT: No, I wish I could just break this wall (chuckling).

THERAPIST: I was going to ask you why you think the glass is there.

CLIENT: I think it's my own anxiety about work, about success. I think that's what it is.

THERAPIST: And that makes you disengage from other people?

CLIENT: (Sniffing) From everything (chuckling). (Pause) [0:10:01] Yeah, I just feel like, I wish things were easier, I'd done things differently (sniffing). (Pause) I waste a lot of time regretting and thinking about the past (chuckling) and trying to alter it even though I cannot alter it really. But I feel like I want to be generous and kind to myself. I feel like there is no other way that I could move forward. (Chuckling) Like, I was... the other day was actually making a list of all the years since graduating from college and what exactly I was doing in them, why... how much was I writing? And... yeah. [0:11:14] I just wish that right after MSU I had been able to get success, and it didn't happen. And I just kind of felt betrayed (chuckling), which is silly, you know? (Sighing) But that's what I felt, and... when I go back and think about it.

And this... most of this thinking happens at night if I wake up at 2:00, 3:00, 4:00 in the morning, and I cannot sleep. I feel really horrible during those times, like, half-conscious, half-subconscious. [0:12:01] And just like this really... the fear is very palpable at that time. But anyway, so I was thinking, why did I work on that piece? Why did I work on this one? They were such disasters, and this and that, and this and that. I wasted so many months, I wasted a year on that (chuckling). And certain moments I just hear myself saying, it's okay, you love this woman, and... my mom's friend, and you were so taken by how hard her life was. And you just wanted to make her... like, immortalize her, remember her, and paint her. So it's okay, you know (chuckling)? I don't know. [0:12:57]

THERAPIST: I'm not sure I understand the connection.

CLIENT: Oh, I'm just saying I was... I'm trying to be generous to myself because I absolutely detest thinking about the stuff that I've done before. Like, I'll look at it, and that's one reason why... I mean, that's a significant failure on my part because, I guess, to be an artist, you have to revise, revise, revise, and edit. So you can't just knock off a first draft and be like, okay, it's done. I have to keep working on it and polishing it and stuff. But if I detest the first draft so much, I'll never get to the second or fourth (ph) drafts and have to polish them. [0:13:58] I don't know (chuckling). I don't know how to break the glass wall (chuckling, sniffing). (Pause) I don't like being behind, and it feels like a punishment (chuckling). (Pause)

THERAPIST: What do you think the punishment is for?

CLIENT: For not performing, for not achieving (chuckling). (Pause) [0:15:00] Alcohol helps me break the wall (laughing), as it does to everyone, I assume. (Pause) (Sniffing)

THERAPIST: How does it do it for you?

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: How does alcohol help you break the wall?

CLIENT: Well, you get uninhibited and lucid and very talkative (chuckling). So... don't feel the anxiety, I stop judging people, and I stop thinking they're judging me (chuckling). So it makes it easier to just let it all out and ask questions or... [0:16:10] (Pause) (Sighing) But is there a non... is there another way of breaking the wall (chuckling) other than relying on alcohol?

THERAPIST: Well, I'm not sure how the wall got there to begin with.

CLIENT: Oh. Well, as a punishment? Just (ph) fear.

THERAPIST: So did you put yourself behind the wall, or...? How'd you get there?

CLIENT: I don't know. Did I put it myself, or did I just sense it? (Pause) I don't know. (Pause) I mean, I don't know if... I guess I must have put it there myself. [0:17:58] But, I mean, right? Because I don't feel like other people did. Or maybe they did (inaudible at 0:18:08) because I felt, you know, I don't have anything to say for myself. Other people do, and so it's best to not let them see that I don't have anything to offer, or... yeah (chuckling). (Pause) [0:19:00] (Sniffing, clearing throat) I mean, so if I put the wall on myself there are chances that I can take it down, right (chuckling)? (Pause) [0:20:00]

THERAPIST: Do you feel disengaged today?

CLIENT: Right now? Not unusually so. Like, I'm trying to think, and... yeah (chuckling). I don't feel... I guess you sense that I might be disengaged during certain sessions.

THERAPIST: Yeah, more so some sessions.

CLIENT: Yeah, but you feel like that today, or...?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean, you're thinking. It's not like you're not here, but it seems like you're more inside yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah, but I don't feel too... that disengaged right now. Like I said, I'm thinking and trying to talk, but... yeah. [0:21:00] (Pause) (Sniffing) I don't know. Like, I know I have all these fears, fear of what people will say and judgment and fear of failure. [0:21:59] And different people have different opinions about it, how to deal with it, how they've dealt with it. And my teacher said, just don't show your stuff to anyone for a couple years if you're that afraid, and just, I wouldn't do that if... I mean, she's phrased it like that. And I was wondering, can I really do that? And I just feel, I couldn't. Like, I just could not imagine going into a tunnel and staying there. I feel like I did that maybe last year. Yeah, and I had a very bad experience, or... yeah. I lost all sight of what people want, and (chuckling, sniffing) I feel like only a very strong person can do that sort of thing, you know? [0:23:04] Just go into your corner, into your shell, produce something brilliant, and come out, and everyone likes it, and... I have... yeah (chuckling). (Pause) I don't know, I feel very conflicted. [0:23:59]

A lot of people I've met recently (sighing) in the community... like, the South Asians that I know, they're kind of like public intellectuals in this sense. I mean, Chris is also, and I guess he teaches. But it's the article, the papers he publishes are kind of for... to be consumed by, not exactly masses, but maybe experts like him but maybe slightly more broad. Yeah, so I feel like that is the only way to be, you know? To produce anything, like art or... yeah. [0:24:56] I can only imagine it in that sense of being for public consumption. Like, I very much have an audience in mind. Yeah, or I just see myself or want to see myself in a sea of people (chuckling). And in complete and direct opposition to that is the idea of Victor (sp?) and him being in his own space and not really needing people that much (chuckling). To me that is an idea of inner strength. But then I'm like, what's the point? How do you know you're living your life correctly, you know? [0:26:00] How do you know? Yeah, I find some... find that kind of a little selfish? And the prospect of doing that is very bold but very risky.

THERAPIST: Risky how?

CLIENT: Well, you could go to the dark side, and no one would be there to tell you (chuckling). You know what I mean? Like, I really cannot digest it. I cannot... it's still there (ph). Like, it's there staring at me in the face, and I don't know how to judge it (chuckling). And I feel like I must judge it, I must have an opinion (chuckling). When I'm still seeing him, I was... anyone has a Mac, I have to open the Photo Booth (laughing) and take a photo of myself or not myself, just look at myself in the mirror or something. [0:27:09]. And I opened his Photo Booth, and there's the most scary photos of himself that he's taken. And he... almost in pitch dark, and he's pretending to be a director, doing this and doing... I was so freaked out (chuckling) by those photos. Why would he do that? Why would he take such dark photos of himself, right? And it occurred to me that he has a very... he has a dark side. He thinks perhaps of himself as a scary monster (chuckling), right? Do you agree with my interpretation? I don't... you have to have seen the photos, I guess. [0:28:00]

(Chuckling) But yeah, I mean, that's what I mean. Like, if you seclude yourself so much, you could end up like that (chuckling). And I just feel like, what's the point, you know? Why do that? Like, shouldn't you be with people and just deal with the pain that they cause you inadvertently or advertently and just make sure you're engaged, make sure you're doing stuff that's useful and interesting to others? Yeah. Am I making any sense (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: What made you say that right now? [0:28:57]

CLIENT: I don't know, I feel... I heard myself and was like, am I just rambling (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: You say that a lot.

CLIENT: I just get very afraid, so then like, where have I gone (chuckling)? Go back, retrace your steps.

THERAPIST: Like Victor, who sort of secludes himself and goes to the dark side?

CLIENT: Yeah (chuckling). And I become meaningless (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Meaningless?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What does that mean?

CLIENT: Without meaning (laughing).

THERAPIST: No, what does... really?

CLIENT: But [I didn't] (ph) really, like, not... I thought I had a thread, I know there was a thread, and just going too far away from it, and never being able to retrace myself like Hansel and Gretel, so... [0:29:59] I mean, does this sound like a legitimate fear of isolation and...? Yeah.

THERAPIST: What's an illegitimate fear?

CLIENT: I don't know (laughing). Yeah, I don't know why I said that.

THERAPIST: Well, it seems like on the one hand you're worried about being too dependent on the opinions of others and constantly monitoring yourself with respect to what other people think and want and need and value...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And then on the other hand being so disconnected from other people's view that you'll just be completely out of sync and maybe go off the deep end in terms of what any sort of normal reality is.

CLIENT: Yeah, because, I mean, that happened to me, and it was not pleasant, and... yeah. [0:30:59] I just don't... I mean, I understand that being by yourself and developing inner strength is important. But I feel like I wouldn't know when to stop, I wouldn't know when I've overdone it. Yeah. But I feel like, if I don't do it, then I become too needy, too clingy, too unsure of myself, just unable to function. I have no streak of independent inquiry, independent thought.

THERAPIST: What's too much inner strength?

CLIENT: Too... what do you mean?

THERAPIST: You said, if you develop too much inner strength, so I was asking about that.

CLIENT: No, I'm not... yeah, no, exactly what you were saying about being out of sync and... do you think Victor's out of sync? [0:32:01] You don't know him (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think it's more important what you think.

CLIENT: About him?

THERAPIST: Yeah, but it seems like... when you're asking me that, what are you wanting to know? Like, what are you wanting to figure out?

CLIENT: Well, if I have an objective opinion of him. I probably don't because of our history, but (chuckling) still... (Pause) I don't know, I'm just confused (chuckling). [0:32:58] (Pause) (Sighing, chuckling) I keep thinking... like, during the holiday, I just wondered if he had any plans. A part of me wanted to invite him stupidly enough. Of course I didn't. I just wonder if he was sitting by himself in his apartment, and, again, he probably wasn't. But if he was is that the thing to do? I just wonder if he's... because he said a few things about Chris and me when we were talking that I didn't appreciate or didn't... they got me worried because Chris would say... or even you said, what is...? [0:34:06] Like, when we first came to see you, you said, there's something that was pulling you guys together, keeps bringing you back together. And Chris thought, maybe that's love. But Victor said, oh no, that is probably... and this is before we came to you, but he was like, oh, that's just inertia. You guys are just too weak to be able to snap the thing and walk away from each other.

So I just have that thing hovering over me sometimes. When Chris and I are together, we're sitting together or something, I just wonder if Victor would say, see? All this happened between you two, and you guys are still together. That's just weird. You guys are totally weak. You guys have no inner strength (chuckling). [0:35:03] I just feel like he's judging us while he's sitting there by himself just like an ascetic or someone. So much inner strength (chuckling) that he knows all the mysteries of the universe. And here we are, weaklings, engaging and talking about politics or talking about history with other people (chuckling). And that's wrong by some standard? (Pause) I just...

THERAPIST: Well, you're (crosstalk) to comparing yourself to him and then thinking, well, who is he to judge? [0:35:56]

CLIENT: No, it's only because... I think, who is he to judge, just because of his dark side, because of those photos, and because of... I mean, so he wanted to make movies, and, like, where are they then, you know? (Chuckling) I understand that it takes hell of a lot more monetary investment to do that, but still, where is it? Where... why aren't you taking steps towards it? You say you don't define yourself by achievement, and you're happy no matter what. Yes, but what's the point of being happy no matter what? Shouldn't you be a little neurotic? Shouldn't you be a little dissatisfied and make things happen, you know? That's why I'm kind of saying, who are you to judge, because ultimately I want to do stuff that's interesting and well-regarded and useful. [0:37:09] I mean... and so does Chris. I mean, he's way more ambitious, and, his path being more structured and everything, he's able to get there sooner. Mine is meandering and everything, but I'm still ambitious. I still want to, yeah, produce something useful. So... I mean, I know I'm failing. I'm making a fool of myself (chuckling), but at least I'm trying, you know? And he's not even trying.

THERAPIST: How are you making a fool of yourself?

CLIENT: [Well, I] feel foolish, behind that glass wall, whatever, and having to say (ph) too much for myself, getting a second degree (chuckling), you know, that. [0:38:08] But...

THERAPIST: You're feeling foolish and making a fool of yourself are two different things.

CLIENT: Well, I feel like I am making a fool of myself in the sense that... in other people's eyes maybe, when they say, so you're getting a second degree? What do you...? What's the deal, you know? (Chuckling) That I feel is like a public spectacle of my failure, but oh well. At least I'm trying in my own foolish ways. [0:38:55]

THERAPIST: Why a failure?

CLIENT: Unless you success you're a failure. I don't know how to change that thinking, and I need your help (chuckling).

THERAPIST: [I know] (ph). (Pause) Yeah, it's certainly hard to succeed every moment of the day, and so, if you're not succeeding every moment of the day, you're... by definition of failure, that's a problem.

CLIENT: Every moment?

THERAPIST: Well, I guess it depends on what you mean by succeed. Like, succeed in what sense? You know what I mean? I guess, succeed in doing what? [0:39:56] (Pause)

CLIENT: I don't know, having some success (chuckling)?

THERAPIST: Well, if you have one success, you could say in two or three months from then, oh, you have no other success. I guess you're failing. Or six months, you're failing. I guess I'm just saying, by that logic there's no end.

CLIENT: Yeah. But how do I break the cycle (chuckling)? I mean, when I say that, that's when I think of Victor, who's happy no matter what (chuckling). And I wonder if I should borrow from his philosophy. And then it scares me because then I think the end result of that is scary (chuckling). [0:40:59] (Pause)

THERAPIST: Well, you have a very... it's almost like a quantitative... like two big jugs. So, if you feel good about yourself, well, why do you actually want to do anything because that'll just put more water in the jug? But your jug already has a lot of water in it, so then you'll just become kind of complacent and lazy because you already have water in your jug.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And, if you have no water in your jug, you feel badly about yourself. Well, then you'll keep being very ambitious because you'll keep wanting to get water in your jug. And so the fact that someone could feel really good about themselves and have water in the jug or a lot of it, but seek things out and want to strive and be better and have ambition, well, then the jug would just flood (chuckling) in your way of thinking about it.

CLIENT: Really? [0:41:57]

THERAPIST: Well, like, with Victor. You're like, well, he's happy with himself, and he doesn't want to do anything. That's what happens when you're happy with yourself, you don't want to do anything.

CLIENT: (Chuckling) So is that erroneous thinking or something?

THERAPIST: Well, it's a particular kind of thinking. I'm not sure it's entire... it's erroneous to the extent that I don't think it's entirely true. I think people can feel good about themselves and still really want things for themselves and achieve and strive.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You can take the opposite argument that it's hard to want to achieve anything for yourself if you don't feel good about yourself (chuckling).

CLIENT: Can you say that again?

THERAPIST: Well, that feeling good about yourself is also about wanting to do good things and achieve.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: It's not simply... I guess what I'm getting at in sort of a long-winded way is, you imagine that it's compensating for a deficit. Like, [getting things as a compensate] (ph)... first it's growing out of a sense of yourself, a good sense of yourself. [0:42:57]

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, you're right. I mean, I so desperately want a good sense of myself (chuckling). And I'm looking at everyone, saying, please like me, or please tell me I'm good and whatever, you know? But that never fills me up. Like, their compliments never fill me up. I don't accept compliments (chuckling). I know that the one person whose approval I seek desperately is myself, and I'm never going to give myself that approval. Or maybe I do in certain moments, and then I get complacent. I don't know, maybe I don't. But it feels... I have that fear. But what did you mean about the quantitative thing?

THERAPIST: With the water in the jug?

CLIENT: Yeah. [0:43:57]

THERAPIST: Well, it's sort of like the more you feel better about yourself, the less you want to do.

CLIENT: yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, like, that correlation. And I guess it's interesting that (ph) people who seem to put every priority aside just to strive for accomplishment... at some point, to go to your logic, you wonder if they're compensating for something, that their striving is coming from a place of feeling a deficit. So, I mean, I don't think that what you're saying is not logical. I just think there's a lot of different ways that ambition... a lot of different sources that ambition can come from. One is a sense of low self-worth, but I don't think that's the only source.

CLIENT: Yeah. Oh my God, it's just, like, yeah (chuckling). (Pause) It's... some of the stuff that... my more successful works have come from a sense (ph) of pride actually in my mom (chuckling). [0:45:10] Quite a few stories of mine are about her or her childhood or youth. And I just feel an overwhelming sense of love for her, and those... when I feel that, that's when I write.... I have written the most successful stuff... things (ph).

THERAPIST: That is... we're going to need to stop in a moment. That is very interesting. Maybe we can hold onto that. I'll see you on Friday, is that right? Is that when our next session is? We rescheduled?

CLIENT: Yes, I think [I wrote that down] (ph), let me see. Friday at 11:20 I want to say.

THERAPIST: Yes, yes. Friday, yes, exactly. [0:45:57] Great.

CLIENT: Thank you (chuckling).

THERAPIST: Sure. I will see you then.

CLIENT: Okay, bye. Have a nice day. Oh, sorry!

THERAPIST: Okay. Take care. No worries, just water.

CLIENT: (Chuckling)

THERAPIST: It's for your jug.

CLIENT: (Laughing)

THERAPIST: Take care. Bye bye.

CLIENT: Bye.

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