TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: How are you?

THERAPIST: Good, thank you.

(Pause): [00:00:10 00:00:19]

CLIENT: All this snow. (Heavy breathing)

(Pause): [00:00:20 00:00:31]

CLIENT: I've been holed up in the apartment with a cold. So I'm not very good.

(Pause): [00:00:40 00:00:46]

CLIENT: Dean and I had a huge kind of fight last night. I don't know whether it's because of being holed up or what, but I think it's kind of some of that and my behavior probably related to what we talked about last time like the whole day that Chris (sp?) and I have fallen into. But I guess we were talking about not having friends or whatever and he said, 'you're a loser. You see everything in terms of punishment or like we don't get invited therefore people must not like us. So, I was like, well it's hard for me not to think that way. Then I kind of remembered a couple of friends who I was close with and I'm not anymore and like these kinds deliberately went online and deleted me as their friend and one of them was amidst friends, that person was gay and I think we talked about it and like he's Chris's (sp?) friend and so he wanted to show his loyalty to Chris (sp?) but I felt betrayed because I'd really reached out to him when he came out but he spent all this time like reading about musicians and I read a few novels and I bought him a novel and he and I used to hang out and he was like don't you even want to hear my side of the story? So I felt very sad about that and (unclear) is like, 'why is this not broken?' He says of (unclear), 'who that guy? He's just collateral damage and that was bound to happen.' And I've lost a friend, too, and was talking about (unclear). And I said, 'why are you and I still' I felt like just (unclear), 'why is not broken?' I don't want to be known as a cheater, if that is going to be the narrative, you know. He's like I don't think of you that way and I think like for most people this breaks the relationship because they can't get past this and they only see the relationship in those terms. They just cannot get this one thing aside. But I think of all the other things they're doing to our company. I want to be with you. All those things in there and we want to get past that thing. [00:04:13]

I mean just say that I think that they were nice and he got upset for some reason, I don't know what. And I just kind of shut up. I couldn't open up to him like I don't know, like I was saying, 'are you very upset?' And Dean was like I'm going to answer about your (unclear) insecurities. So I thought he was mad so I couldn't open up to him and then when he kind of calmed down he was like, you know, it's okay, it doesn't mean that you know couples fight and this and that and my reaction was I'm going to go back to my apartment and something and then I just go and he's like, 'why does that have to be the case? You know, people fight. You get angry at me all the time, but that doesn't mean you hate me, right?' And I was like, 'when you get mad at me that's what I think, you know that you hate me.'

And then I was thinking about this the whole night and I think one time you got a little upset and like for the rest of the session I couldn't talk at all, like I was like in tears, or something. (Laughs). So just like the same thing I guess happens when I get so afraid when I think that I've made someone mad that I just I cannot open up to them for like a few hours.

THERAPIST: When was I upset with you?

CLIENT: This is like a while back. Like this was like a small misunderstanding. I don't know, I couldn't make some time or something. I was commuting -

THERAPIST: We talked about scheduling.

CLIENT: Yeah and you said like, 'it seems that you had all this time available.' And I just was like, 'oh no, I didn't mean that at all.' And (unclear) that you came across as a little upset so I think I started crying or something. (Laughs) [00:06:28]

And like the last couple of sessions, I'm just saying like that happens to me like people who I look up to and they like in the case of Chris, I really look up to like I just cannot and he kept saying, 'tell me what you're thinking, tell me what you're thinking.' And I just couldn't. And I just felt so weird and then I was thinking maybe he and I just don't share that kind of relationship. I think of him as he just has great intelligence, a smart person who is going to achieve so much. That's who he is as his whole entity and then when he and I are together we are having great conversations and he's encouraging me, he's teaching me, he's keeping me accountable. He's giving me structure and we are cooking together and making his place look more beautiful and yeah, well that's it, you know. Like I just cannot share my emotions with him just because I just don't know why.

THERAPIST: How did you feel you made him angry?

CLIENT: How?

THERAPIST: Yeah, you were analogizing it to feeling like I was upset with you.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: I wasn't clear of the analogy when you were saying that "it's hard for me," you were referencing the time that you felt that I was upset with you and I didn't get the connection to Chris.

CLIENT: I was just saying that like I couldn't talk for the rest of the session. I was scared. So that's the similarity that I was saying. I was scared with Chris also so like I just couldn't talk to him. And he kept asking me to open up to him to tell him what I was thinking. So I was just wondering like why I couldn't. (Laughs) Yeah. [00:09:21]

THERAPIST: What do you think you're scared of?

CLIENT: Several things a couple of things. Well one thing is that I was (unclear) and I cannot keep talking (unclear). He's already specifically said that I already talk too much. I try not to but even the little that I do is, obviously, too much for him. (Laughs) So I couldn't tell him about that. And then -

THERAPIST: What did you want to say about (unclear) to him?

CLIENT: Like he's saying, 'what are you thinking?' So like if he wants to know exactly what I'm thinking then that' not (laughing).

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: I cannot change that at all. Chris I mean, I'm scared of making him even more mad or (unclear) his judgment that, 'you're stupid,' or 'you're nothing.' And, 'you're just wasting my time and your time, get out.' And I know he's not going to say that.

(Pause): [00:10:31 00:10:51]

CLIENT: But I don't know, like I kept thinking that he was a liar, I think, I mean, yeah. Maybe that's why I don't want to open up to him.

(Pause): [00:11:11 00:11:34]

CLIENT: I don't know. He has everything going for him and I'm just a big mess and I just should just take my mess somewhere else or something, not spread it about, not share it.

(Pause): [00:11:52 00:12:12]

CLIENT: Do you think David really loved Goliath?

(Pause): [00:12:13 00:12:24]

THERAPIST: Not with a sense of injustice and maybe even resentment, no.

CLIENT: No?

(Pause): [00:12:32 00:12:37]

THERAPIST: I guess it's a certain kind of love but it's a love fraught with problems.

CLIENT: Hmm.

(Pause): [00:12:42 00:12:49]

CLIENT: Well that's what happened to us like exactly a year ago. So -

(Pause): [00:12:58 00:13:02]

CLIENT: I don't want to be David. I really don't want to. I want to be equals with everyone but, so it's an impossible (Pause), really, really huge and I really seem to have everything. I seem to have nothing. And I don't want to have I mean I realize I have thing but things kind of disappear in a puff of smoke and things take a turn for (unclear) the worst.

(Pause): [00:13:46 00:15:40]

CLIENT: It's kind of weird and all to sort of go back again to living with him. (Laugh) I mean he's so productive and like he has a set time for everything and even while he's not working he said he's going to take this week off. Even on his week off he's been working on some website on which he's been posting articles and stuff. (Laughs). Even the non-work is even work and I had school all this week. I mean I don't get anything done and like him watching me waste time also makes me feel very conscious of that but it's like it's worse than being naked or something that he can really see me as someone disgusting and someone that just wastes so much time and I just feel horrible. You know, like I want to be someone sparkly and productive and efficient sitting across the dinner table and (unclear) and having a lot to say for myself. But I don't and I'm messy and I'm a mess. Like how can anyone love this? I certainly don't, you know?

(Pause): [00:17:34 00:18:33]

THERAPIST: So that one thing that prevents you from being an equal and not David is this self-loathing.

CLIENT: Well I don't know how to stop it.

(Pause): [00:18:46 00:19:04]

CLIENT: How do you stop it? That's the key.

(Pause): [00:19:09 00:20:10]

CLIENT: You know I really must stop thinking about (unclear). It's like my mind just keeps going there and just keeps thinking, none of this was there with him. Like, I think. Maybe I was just so happy that I wasn't focusing on anything major. But I wasn't, yeah I wasn't loathing myself. I didn't think of myself as anything less. Yeah, I even felt myself as equal to him for some weird reason, you know. Like I didn't care if we were wasting time or whatever and everything was important, too, and it didn't matter like, 'oh, it's way past dinnertime,' or, 'it's way past lunchtime,' or something it's didn't really, it was whatever time we ate or (unclear) worked and didn't seem wrong, you know.

(Pause): [00:21:34 00:21:45]

CLIENT: But maybe I shouldn't think of that situation at all. I mean it's not going to help this situation.

(Pause): [00:21:52 00:22:07]

CLIENT: With (unclear), I don't know.

(Pause): [00:22:03 00:22:45]

CLIENT: I don't know. I keep thinking, maybe it's the wrong approach but I keep thinking if you're going to place a dull object next to a shiny one the dull object is going to look even more dull and even dirty.

(Pause): [00:22:58 00:23:10]

CLIENT: I think like I think so highly of him you know, when I think lowly of myself. (Laughs) So in comparison to him but then you know, I also don't want to just be by myself and completely feel and not strive for something higher, you know, like him you know, to be like you want to be as efficient as him.

THERAPIST: Do you feel like he inspires you?

(Pause): [00:23:46 00:23:53]

CLIENT: In theory, yes.

THERAPIST: I ask only because it sounds like what you're saying is that if you're with him somehow you'll be inspired, motivated, but what I hear you talking most about is just feeling badly about yourself, not motivated, but maybe you also feel motivated.

(Pause): [00:24:12 00:24:16]

CLIENT: Should I think about occasions when I felt motivated?

THERAPIST: Can you?

CLIENT: Yes, well I'm trying to. (Laughs) I mean that's the one reason why I moved back in with him to feel inspired to work.

(Pause): [00:24:38 00:24:47]

CLIENT: I think most of the time it's feeling bad but I wonder if it's my fault because I've been thinking negatively for so many years now. (Laughs) But yeah. So I don't trust my own (unclear).

(Pause): [00:25:09 00:25:26]

CLIENT: So what was the point of your question or comment?

THERAPIST: You were saying that you know, maybe you need a Chris because on your own you (unclear) exception.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So my question is does Chris really motivate you more or is he just someone that you're around that makes you feel bad about yourself?

CLIENT: Yeah, but, Chris is supposed to make me feel motivated. (Laughs)

And if he doesn't then what does that mean about myself?

(Pause): [00:26:10 00:26:17]

THERAPIST: What do you think? Can David love Goliath?

CLIENT: It's a very, very sad kind of love.

(Pause): [00:26:24 00:26:38]

CLIENT: I mean do you really love the person who tortures you? Sure, yeah. I'm sure you can do that. I mean like you said it's going to be fraught with all kinds of problems.

(Pause): [00:26:51 00:27:37]

CLIENT: I just don't understand why I cannot accept his love. He's so kind and he keeps saying he loves me despite all that I've done. I just don't understand why I cannot why I don't respond to that. You know?

(Pause): [00:28:01 00:28:06]

CLIENT: Perhaps because of this, because I feel (unclear) or something.

(Pause): [00:28:12 00:28:38]

THERAPIST: I don't know why I feel like I'm just equal. Like will I never feel equal? Or -

(Pause): [00:28:46 00:29:01]

CLIENT: Like some of the time I don't think about it, you know, unless he says something and then I think about it all the time. When I'm not thinking about it I mean you know, we are able to have a good time. But I think it's always there in the back of my head, this inequality. I just don't know. I don't know how to look away from it or look or gain a new perspective on this.

(Pause): [00:30:07 00:30:12]

CLIENT: And I desperately want to be me you know, and I want to have my own definitions of success and efficiency (laughs), and my own goals and my own path to get there, but (Pause) it is difficult to (unclear) your own goal and your own path and it's just like easier to subscribe to his ideas. But I don't know. (Pause) I'm so confused.

(Pause): [00:31:01 00:31:28]

CLIENT: When you live alone you feel like there's too much me and then when you live with someone like Chris it's like too much him. (Laughs) Like, what do you do? Like, live right outside his place? (Laughs) Just camp outside.

(Pause): [00:31:45 00:32:18]

CLIENT: I'm very rebellious so I wonder if that's also a problem like it's like he said, either I get defensive or I get to feel like a victim. (Laughs) It's like, yeah.

(Pause): [00:32:44 00:32:53]

CLIENT: If I have to do something and I don't want to do it (unclear) like I get defensive and it's like he's trampling on me. (Laughs) I don't know why I think that way.

(Pause): [00:33:12 00:33:48]

CLIENT: And so like this is my relationship and it probably sounds very unhealthy, right?

(Pause): [00:33:51 00:33:59]

THERAPIST: It sounds like you don't feel it's very healthy.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Pause) I'm feeling the problem is me because of the way I react. How can I stop feeling like a victim? How can I stop feeling like David who thinks people are out to get me or they will trample on me and they will take away from me my voice, you know me. They will take me away from me.

(Pause): [00:34:51 00:34:55]

THERAPIST: Well looking to someone as an authority is a mixed bag because in a sense you're purchasing a feeling of being taken care of for power and freedom and that's the cost. Someone in authority they have power over you and you're limiting your freedom.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Pause): [00:35:19 00:35:28]

CLIENT: So should I like cancel that contract? (Laughs) Like stop. Yeah stop doing that stop looking at Chris as an authority figure, you know, grow up. I don't want to look at my mom as an authority figure. I mean that was sort of happened. (Laughs) You know that happened.

THERAPIST: Maybe that's why you especially toward Chris for mom.

CLIENT: Yeah, but do you have an authority figure? I thought everyone has an authority figure, I sure, you know. I mean, a few have jobs and your boss is your authority figure but then that's it.

THERAPIST: Well then, I guess, I don't by definition since I'm my own boss.

CLIENT: Yeah. (Laughs)

(Pause): [00:36:22 00:36:30]

CLIENT: I have a boss and I have again, (unclear) teachers, and I'll always have teachers, I guess, but -

THERAPIST: Well, you crave that guidance and that feeling of being taken care of but you don't like the cost of it. The flip side of it.

CLIENT: Yeah. Why? I mean, are their people who like the cost or are okay with paying that cost?

THERAPIST: I think it's hard as an adult because adults want their freedom on some level and they want ultimate say in their life.

CLIENT: But I mean when you have a job, you have a boss and when you come home and want to bitch about their bosses but that amount of money they're able to kind of drink the bitter cup or whatever and they're okay at least from 9 to 5 but you're spending less time at home in that regard. You know, you spend the rest of your waking hours -

THERAPIST: What are there 144 hours in the week? Something like that. 25 times 175 no even more than that. Yeah. Well if you spend 40 hours at work you spend more time at home.

CLIENT: Yeah, okay. Not counting the hours you sleep. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: But you're highly, I mean it's true people have relationships in their lives where someone has some power over them and they may have to mixed feelings about that. But you're very sensitized to those parts of life. The other thing is you can leave your job and find another job.

CLIENT: Yeah. I feel there is always this tug of war between him and me like me getting empowered and him taking it back and it is stressful for the relationship.

THERAPIST: And I imagine your being with an (unclear) was sort of a way of saying, 'I can say how I live my life.'

CLIENT: Yeah. (Laughs) Like subconsciously I was like giving it to him. It was very bad of me but (Pause) I don't know, like when things pretty ugly with (unclear) he was like (unclear) because of my behavior probably. But those moments of sheer freedom of actually feeling equal were so nice (laughs).

(Pause): [00:39:33 00:39:38]

THERAPIST: It's scary, like having your own room where there's too much of you and no bounds. It sounds like you don't like the feeling of it no boundaries or bounds.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's like when do I stop, you know, and when do I win the row and say, oh yeah.

THERAPIST: Like a liquid with no glass.

CLIENT: Yeah.

(Pause): [00:39:58 00:40:16]

CLIENT: So what's the solution?

(Pause): [00:40:12 00:40:19]

THERAPIST: To find out why you feel like liquid and why there's no glass.

CLIENT: That's the solution?

THERAPIST: It's a path.

CLIENT: I was thinking more like not making Chris an authority or making him an authority and learning how to deal with the compromises.

(Pause): [00:40:49 00:41:12]

CLIENT: This isn't usually I mean I'm not wracking my brain about this when I'm home are we almost done?

THERAPIST: A couple minutes.

CLIENT: It's like I keep wondering why is he an authority at all and I'm like and he's not in my field, he's not you know, what does he bring me. You know, just he's just a workaholic and I'll stay long enough with him to study his methods. I mean I've seen the negative sides as well. Yeah. Well, Let's stop.

(Pause): [00:42:03 00:42:22]

CLIENT: You know we had a break and I thought I learned some lessons by being with (unclear), hungry, independent and everything and I thought I could apply those to Chris and my relationship and I thought we were doing that for a while and now we're just falling back into our old pattern of him being the school master and me being the errant student.

(Pause): [00:42:49 00:43:10]

CLIENT: But I'm going to need your help to figure out how not to feel like (unclear).

THERAPIST: I'll help you with that.

CLIENT: That would be very nice. (Laughs) It's so tiresome. I do this with everyone, not just Chris.

(Pause): [00:43:33 00:43:37]

THERAPIST: When there's like a sado-masochistic element and the sado part is feeling abused, like someone is abusing their power, and then feeling the one to be abused and then at times feeling like you're the abuser like getting involved with (unclear) and hurting Chris. And you certainly feel that at times where you feel like you're being too aggressive or overpowering someone and it's hard if you can only be one of those two roles in a relationship if those are the only options. It's very hard to be in a relationship.

CLIENT: Or just anywhere. Like even like with you, you know, you just got a little upset and sounded like you were just a little upset and I just ruined that session. You know. It could have been in other situations that it's worse and it is.

THERAPIST: I certainly don't think of it as you ruining the session.

Aren't we supposed to go to these really, really difficult places together?

CLIENT: Yeah. But I know we have a relationship until that we survived that but -

THERAPIST: Yes, we did. Going to some really difficult places together and surviving it I think has amazing value. I don't think of it as ruining it at all. And we do need to stop here. I will see you on Wednesday.

CLIENT: Okay. Happy New Year.

THERAPIST: Thank you very much. Same to you.

CLIENT: See you next year. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: Or in two days. Bye-bye.

CLIENT: Bye.

END TRANSCRIPT