TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

CLIENT: If my schedule says it, then it must be true.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Well, I'm sorry we missed each other. I know it was a long break. I also have to apologize about the [beds] (ph). I don't know if you saw your explanation of benefits from Blue Cross, so unfortunately the plan you have is an HMO plan that uses only a select percentage of Blue Cross Blue Shield providers so even though I'm a Blue Cross Blue Shield provider I'm out of network for your particular plan.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: So that makes you responsible.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: For sessions.

CLIENT: That's weird.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's a very strange setup so I think what happened was many, many, many years ago Blue Cross bought out another company and they have a few remaining plans that use the other company's network, not their own network and it's a little bit unclear sometimes what's what. So you can try to fight it. It's probably worth maybe, you know, trying to appeal to them to cover some of those sessions and if you do that I'm happy to rebill then it that's going to get you some coverage.

CLIENT: Because, remember I specifically asked this question and wanted to make sure that the coverage with you as a provider and I actually switched primary care physicians so that they would cover you, so I'll give them a call.

THERAPIST: So I would do that because sometimes that works and I'm happy to rebill them and you can hang onto that.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: And then, so you don't have to pay me right away. So if you want to work with them, try to appeal it, I will work with you to do that. That's sort of just a hold, you know I don't want you to – it's kind of just a hold up place until you know that something happened to go through (unclear) time. Then in the end if we can't get them to cover any or all of it you know what you have and you can pay it in installments because I know it's sort of a big chunky mess when you're not expecting it.

CLIENT: Sure. Okay. It sounds good. It's all good. I'll call them soon, like this week.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: I'll call them tomorrow.

THERAPIST: So, putting that stuff aside, how are you?

CLIENT: I'm well. Well sort of, okay. There's kind of a lot that happened I guess. It's been a while.

THERAPIST: Yeah, and you were home for quite a bit.

CLIENT: Yeah, was home for two weeks. So, home was nice. So we had a fight, of course.

THERAPIST: We – you and mom or your dad?

CLIENT: Yeah. And so I was home, it was great and it was really nice and then at one point like we – so she asked me – oh, I asked if I could go pick up my brother because we share her car when I'm there. I borrow it. And I asked if I could go pick up my brother from school because I had to go do something at the school. I needed to order a transcript for my applications. And so she's like, yeah, but you have to do this other thing, too. It was like taking the – because they don't pick up the recycling, you have to take it to the place. And I thought she said it in like this like really mean, order-y kind of way and I like responded angrily and like I was like really angry. I didn't – like this is obviously all in retrospect. It's clearer in retrospect. But I responded angrily and I was like, 'well, I don't know where that is. I'm kind of – like, can I just go?' Like kind of upset and then she's like I don't even know what she said. It was something like, 'well, I can't even ask you to do like a small favor, like you feel like you're a visitor here, like you don't do anything,' because earlier like the day before, I told her that I didn't pick up the phone when I was home because they have like these little wireless phones and I don't even know where they keep them because like they're never at the base and I never know where they are and by the time I find them the guy's like (unclear) [00:04:11] and it's always like 1-800 numbers because everyone else uses cell phones. So I was like, okay I'm not going to answer the phone when I'm home like leave a message or whatever.

And so she's like, you won't even answer the phone when you're home, like blah, blah, blah, like and she started like yelling at me and I was like, 'well I mean, I don't need to borrow your car, you can, I don't know, whatever.' Anyway, we got into this like (unclear) and she stormed off yelling at me like saying, 'oh, here goes the huge bitch going to pick up her – like would I like doing all this stuff. She left yelling. And I stayed home and was like bummed out and whatever, like okay, there's a fight. Then I kind of like fell asleep or something because I was like, 'well, (unclear) like my plan for the day. And later that day like I saw her and she was like perfectly fine to me and to me that makes no sense.

THERAPIST: It feels very disjointed.

CLIENT: Right. Like – and this is definitely like something I was used to when I was home, was like, 'oh, let's just pretend like nothing happened.'

THERAPIST: Yeah. Is that what she's doing? Pretending that nothing happened or did she really let it go?

CLIENT: Yeah, because no, because next time we fight or something like this is like what usually happens is like the next time she'll bring up that other fight and like hold me responsible for that and the comments of the day before. So it just builds up and I guess I'm not used to that anymore, like, maybe like fighting with Julia this whole time, we at least we never pretended like everything was okay. We would be awkward to each other and maybe that's like wrong, too, but I don't know. So that was weird for me and I was like, I just can't pretend nothing's fine. So I was like, 'okay, mom, like whatever.'

So things were really awkward for a really long time, like a week and actually, like maybe three days after we had that fight we went to Santa Fe. So I drove her to Santa Fe and then back and so she hates the way that I drive because we drive really differently and like now that I live in Providence I was really worse, right? So, it's like ridiculous to drive. And in New Mexico everyone does the speed limit because the speed limit's 75 and like 5 miles over and like you can get pulled over and here it's like okay it's 55, let's go 80, okay. I don't know. So I drove my mom to Santa Fe and like we were eating somewhere and I was like building myself up to like try to talk to her about this fight we'd had and I was like, I don't really feel right about the way that it ended or whatever. Like maybe we can talk about it and we'd already been fighting about my driving a little bit. And so I tried to like bring it up and tell her like, 'hey, I just really thought that you were kind of bossy and that's probably why I reacted so angrily. I didn't mean to be mean or, I don't know, be angry or whatever.'

I don't think I did it very well, but I tried and we like kept talking and then like she brings up your whole life like, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah and starts talking about everything I've done wrong in my entire life and I'm like, 'oh, my God,' like I'm trying to talk about this one little thing and that was really frustrating and then I started like getting really frustrated, but like really angry and she's like, 'well, fine then,' and I'd told her I was like we're talking about the same thing, but just not talking to each other. We're not making sense to each other.' And she's like, 'well, then maybe we shouldn't talk.' And I was like, 'okay.' Because that's clearly what I meant when I said that like I even said that, I was like, 'that's obviously I meant, is we should never talk again.' And so the ride back was really awkward and I had told her, I was like, 'if we're just going to be fighting over the way that I drive,' because we don't just fight over it, she yells at me over it because she thinks she's about to die so she's like, 'stop!' But I'm like that freaks me out and then that becomes a really dangerous situation because you know like when you get really scared and then all of a sudden you feel like your body goes cold or something? Like that's literally how I feel when she yells at me.

So it's like not even safe. So I don't feel comfortable driving, like, 'would you mind if I not drive on the way back?' And she's like, 'fine,' like and then she was falling asleep so I ended up taking the wheel anyway and it was like, 'okay, just try not to yell at me, please.' So then things were awkward then and then we went out to dinner with my brother and then my brother – I feel bad – but he was kind of like the intermediary – we had another fight, again and I was like, 'I just wanted you to say, like hey I'm sorry if I offended you, I didn't mean it that way.' And she apparently thought that I wanted her to use the word, 'please' whenever she asked me to do anything and I was like, 'no, no, no, wait – that would be ridiculous. Like, I just want you to say things nicely and then I will do them. Like I'd done like eight favors for her before and drove her to Santa Fe without saying no – that's a six hour drive. So, I don't know. Like I guess we talked about it for like a really long time and my brother kind of translated between what I was saying and between what my mom was saying and she kept on bringing stuff in from other – and I was like, 'no, let's talk about this, because we're never going to get anywhere if you try and talk about everything I've done wrong in my entire life.' (Laughs) Let's just talk about this one thing.

And so we finally did and then that kind of like –

THERAPIST: Did it feel helpful to have your brother do that translation?

CLIENT: It was really helpful. I hate putting him in that position.

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's hard.

CLIENT: Yeah, like that's not his responsibility but at least it worked out this one time, like he doesn't like really care about doing stuff like that I guess, but I still feel bad. But we like, I almost started to cry, actually, like where we were because I was like, 'oh, my God, I can't believe that actually worked.' But that whole expanded like three or four fights in like less than 10 days.

THERAPIST: So what is it that she was trying to say that you couldn't hear when she said it?

CLIENT: She was saying something like actually being able to just ask you things without saying please because you're my family. And like, we should just understand that I don't mean to like boss you around or whatever, that's not how I mean it and you should know that. And I was like, 'okay, granted, but the way that we – I don't know, I tried to explain like you also just can't be mean to me and then like that – I don't know. And I said it like, I understand that you weren't trying to be mean and I'm sorry for the confusion,' but –

THERAPIST: What made it feel mean to you when she didn't intend it that way?

CLIENT: I think she was like kind of half asleep and I didn't realize it until after and she just kind of said it like kind of weird and I took it as like, 'well, go do this,' and it may have just been, how am I going to do this?' And I misunderstood and that like backfired immediately as I was walking away from the fight I was like this is the dumbest fight we've ever had. This is not a real fight and apparently my mom thought the same thing. Like she told my brother that she thought it was a stupid fight, too. We're not really fighting over anything.

THERAPIST: You're fighting over the years of things you've fought over before.

CLIENT: Right. And I don't know that that' fair, like she brings stuff after like when I was six and I'm like I don't even remember what you're talking about, like and maybe that's not fair of me to just want to start over or something but I don't know, like really? When I was six?

THERAPIST: You can't really change something. Generally it's people are advised to try to fight about one issue, preferably one issue at a time and focus on the present because it's very hard for you to go back and change things that you've done in the past or even sometimes – you said, 'recollect' what was your perspective at that time. Do you remember?

CLIENT: Right, I mean – and I know that I was like, I think what that brings up for me is I know I was the hardest of the three to raise because I was the most rebellious and confrontational and like angry all the time but like I get it. To me it feels like I'm the worse daughter ever and like I don't know, that's really shitty. It makes me feel bad, you know? I don't know. So it feels like whenever she can't focus on something she's like bringing in all this stuff and I feel like this terrible person because I've done all this negative stuff and like, I don't know.

THERAPIST: That's hurtful to hear.

CLIENT: Yeah. And then apparently my brother, he like wrote a family summary or something and he like shared it with my mom and my mom was really sad because apparently he felt neglected when – I guess when I was a teenager he was like eight-ish and my mom's like, 'yeah, that's because your sister was so difficult to raise.' And I'm like, 'oh, great, now I'm responsible for the neglect of my brother, too. Like, so, I don't know.

THERAPIST: It doesn't feel like mom's taking a whole lot of responsibility here.

CLIENT: Oh, well, I don't know. I never thought of it like that. But, I don't know. (Laughs) Yeah, I was hard to raise, but –

THERAPIST: I wonder if it would have been an easier dynamic with a different parent.

Were you hard because of the specific things you did or was it hard because you were bucking up against your mom? She was there, too. You also were the only girl she raised. It may be different than raising boys.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean I was raised sort of like, 'let me do what I want to do,' like even when I was little, apparently I was obviously, I don't remember this, I was three and I was like, 'I can't wait until I'm 15 so I can go to Disneyworld on my own.' Or you know, like, so it has kind of been like a –

THERAPIST: Yeah, that's definitely the way the history is told like you were difficult, you were rebellious.

CLIENT: Yeah. But –

THERAPIST: There's many different versions of history depending upon what perspective you take.

CLIENT: Sure. I mean I did, I guess I always did well in school and like I don't know there were other things that were good, but like whenever I wanted to do – for example I wanted to go on a missions trip because like all the cool kids went on this missions trip to like Mexico and they didn't let me go because, not because it was dangerous or whatever, because at the time it wasn't really as dangerous as it is now – but because I was the only girl. I could never go on field trips alone because I was a girl. Like I could never sleep over at anyone's house because I was a girl. And all that stuff really bugged me because everyone else was like –

THERAPIST: Other girls were doing it.

CLIENT: Right. And so –

THERAPIST: Yeah, that's really a problem. So you had – the way the story is told from your parents' perspective, or your mom's perspective is that you were more difficult, right? Because you were angry about all these things. However, it's also important to remember that you had a different environment than your brothers had because they weren't denied these things that they wanted based on their gender.

CLIENT: Yeah, that makes sense.

THERAPIST: They had less to rebel against because there was a very different set of expectations based on your culture which was different than some of your peers. So then, having more freedom than you were given –

CLIENT: And I think part of it was actually since everyone in my group was Mexican. It wasn't even a cultural thing. I think it was like a family thing. So I don't know. Like I got invited to this – I went to a high school reunion, too, so like this was all -

THERAPIST: Merry Christmas.

CLIENT: Yeah. I got invited to this very prestigious trip, like you get to do a bunch of stuff with congress people and it's like really cool for high school. It was called USA Classroom or something and you had to be nominated by a teacher and then like go and they only selected 10 people every year and it was really cool and I got invited and I couldn't go because my mom couldn't go. And I – that one I really resented because this is a really cool opportunity and I'm totally missing out and I don't know. There was like a lot of that growing up. But I don't know. So anyway, I guess bringing all that up again like, I don't know, like I'm older and I'm not – maybe I'm not making a lot of money but I'm doing okay, I'm surviving and I'm doing it on my own which my mom has always said is really important. So, I feel like there are all these other good things but then I still go home and feel like a shitty daughter. And also for leaving because it just feels like – I feel like my mom thinks that I left because I hated her, but I didn't. Like I just hated where I was. Even just being there for two weeks I was like I'm so done with being here, I hate this city, the –

THERAPIST: What is it that you hate about it?

CLIENT: It's just, it's like so I grew up there and it's just like a really closed minded, little city. I never fit in. I don't know. If you think just a little bit different than – and it's really materialistic, too. Like all the people do is shop and like do stuff and like I like nice things sometimes but I'm not like that. I don't need a nice purse to live, really. I don't do that. And, I don't know. So, that's like not the way that I think. They think other things are more important. My mom does, too. I think that's where I got it I guess, but I don't know. Like everyone else does. There's not much to do or think about or I don't know. I like the big city, like I can go to the museum, I can go do something. I fit in more here. There's people that I have stuff in common with. I don't know if that's like a bad reason.

THERAPIST: You don't feel comfortable feeling like you don't fit in.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: It's a pretty strong reason to not feel comfortable someplace. You want to feel like you're surrounded by people that you can understand and who understand you. It's like you're trying to look for why is it that I feel like I don't fit in. Is it this materialistic focus that doesn't seem quite right with me or is it the lack of options to go and do and experience things. It's hard to know what it is but you feel it.

CLIENT: Right. And I mean I think it's partially like I've always felt it even growing up. I went to Catholic high school. I wasn't Catholic. And that's what my experience has been – I really feel like out of place.

THERAPIST: I wonder if that feels like when you reject a place, I wonder if your mom feels like you're rejecting her.

CLIENT: Yeah. I think my last trip, like she finally kind of understood 'cause I wanted to, like I do want to spend time at home, but like at home, like in the house with my family, not really doing other stuff, like I don't like the city but I really like my family. And so that's kind of the only reason I go back and –

THERAPIST: Because that's where they are.

CLIENT: Right. Even when I was on the plane back to Providence and I was sitting next to a guy. He was from China. Always, whenever he gets some time off he goes to New Mexico, to vacation. Like that's – he's like a world traveling business guy and he could go anywhere in the world but he goes to New Mexico. I was like, 'okay.' (Laughs)

THERAPIST: Right.

CLIENT: But yeah, it's kind of a long thing. I felt really different though to actually be able to feel better about – I think usually we just –

THERAPIST: Yeah, you worked through one. It was hard.

CLIENT: It took a long time.

THERAPIST: But you worked through one.

CLIENT: Yeah, so that was –

THERAPIST: I wonder how you can skip to that part of the process sooner next time.

CLIENT: Yeah, and not involve my brother.

THERAPIST: Yeah, see if you can find a way to translate for each other.

CLIENT: Yeah. I am totally like when I realized that she thought that I wanted her to use the word, please, I was like, "what?" Like, no, that's not what I'm saying at all, like – I don't know. It's interesting how we were talking about the same thing over and over and over again and we were still totally unable to –

THERAPIST: Plus, it's helpful to kind of slow the conversation down and kind of – you can play the role that your brother played by asking clarifying questions like, 'this is what I think I heard you say,' and repeating it back and saying, 'is that right? Is that what you meant?' And that may have gotten you to a place where she'd say, 'no, I didn't say that.' Or you could say, 'no, I didn't say that you needed to use exact words.'

CLIENT: Yeah. I was – I hope it's okay, but (laughs) but I was like, 'what would Dr. Asgaard say right now? (Laughs) I hope that's okay.

THERAPIST: Absolutely.

CLIENT: I borrowed you.

THERAPIST: That is part of the purpose of therapy. So you don't need me all the time, start to think what would I, yeah –

CLIENT: And that was kind of helpful too. But, it's like I notice that like what I used to do – like my nature is to do is to be angry and brood and not talk about it. Well, we've talked about that. But also like she would ask me like, 'what's wrong?' And I couldn't answer, like I would just be like, 'she should know what's wrong.' Like, why doesn't she know what's wrong? And like it was this really – so I figured out, like, 'oh, crap, I don't even tell people when I'm doing that, like that's – and then I was like, 'oh, that's not very fair for her to be held responsible for something I'm not even telling her what upsets me.'

THERAPIST: Not being able to read your mind or your body language.

CLIENT: Right. So that was new, too, where I was like, oh, I didn't realize that that's what I was doing. So that's –

THERAPIST: So you can express, 'I wish you were able to magically know what I'm feeling or need what I'm feeling but I guess you can't.' So. Because you can express that wish that you feel like she should be able to assume what's wrong or have an idea based on what's going on that might make it easier for you to be able to express it, being able to first say that you wish that she just got it.

CLIENT: Yeah, that's seems okay. I can try that. So that was kind of my trip home. It was also the first trip I didn't see my dad, I think pretty much. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Did you get your license renewed? Wasn't that one of the arguments?

CLIENT: Oh, to Mexico? No, I forgot my passport so I couldn't go.

THERAPIST: How convenient.

CLIENT: It was convenient (laughs). And you know what's really funny is I actually did forget my passport but then I was like, this is nice. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: (Laughs) I knew it was going to be one of your hesitations of –

CLIENT: Yeah, and I think next time I will have to go. It's just one of those things where I'm just going to be like, okay, he'll be angry for a day and then he'll be fine. I don't even know what to think about that. But it is like that lingering I don't really want to go back because of this. It's fine.

THERAPIST: You had started to say that you didn't see your dad.

CLIENT: Oh, yeah. Which was nice.

THERAPIST: How did you arrange not to see him?

CLIENT: Well, I think my mom – she asked me like towards the end of my trip, she was like, 'are you going to see your dad?' And I said, 'no.' And she was like, 'okay.' So I even felt like that was, that made me much more comfortable going home. It actually felt like I was going home to relax and see my family and cook a lot.

THERAPIST: So you had gone with the intention of not seeing him.

CLIENT: Right. But usually what happens is, at least what had happened before was I go, like I don't want to see him, but then my mom is like, 'you need to go out with him,' and then I like go and I'm angry. But I don't know, I kind of realize that she's not going to be there. It's not her relationship to like –

THERAPIST: Yeah, you can feel like you can make your own statement about it.

CLIENT: I think part of the reason she wants me to go is she doesn't want to feel responsible for –

THERAPIST: You not having a relationship with him.

CLIENT: And like maybe she is and maybe she isn't but that's neither here nor there, that's not –

THERAPIST: It's your decision.

CLIENT: Right. Exactly.

THERAPIST: So she's giving you a little bit more autonomy, allowing you to decide whether or not you'll have a relationship with him and what the relationship will consist of.

CLIENT: Right. And I felt like that was really nice, actually. And I think like I did a lot of thinking (unclear) [00:26:59] like that was kind of a summary of like my environment and I sort of thought about it and was like I don't know, like my mom has probably made a lot of mistakes like she asked me to fight for her and all these things that I never really thought about before like how if she hadn't asked me to stand up for her like so many times growing up, like my relationship would be different with my dad, but I don't know, like then I sort of (unclear) and I was like, you know, it doesn't, it's like everyone makes mistakes. If it was a mistake and like, I don't know. It's like I still, I don't know anything different than I do now so it doesn't really matter either way.

THERAPIST: Kind of letting it be what it is.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: At this point, it is what it is and you can decide where you want to go from here with it, but I mean it's similar to how you want your mom to let go of the things you did when you were six. You're letting go of things that she's done up until now that one point impacted her relationship with him.

CLIENT: I guess I didn't, what was new was that I didn't even realize that I thought that those were mistakes, like maybe I held it against her on some level but I didn't really realize that I did. I don't know. So, I don't know. That doesn't seem like (unclear) perfect, like you can't – I don't know. So, that was new I guess. When I come back and I get an e-mail from my supervisor being like, 'you are unprofessional, irresponsible, so we're going to have a conference call.' It's like (laughs) okay.

THERAPIST: What did they base that thought on?

CLIENT: So he thought that, this happened today, the conference call happened today. So it was an e-mail that said over the past few months we've had continuing concerns regarding your professionalism, your time management skills and your – what was the third – oh, your leadership skills. And I've never been called unprofessional before, like in my life, like ever. So I was like, what is he talking about? (Unclear) [00:29:08] goes, I don't know where he would get that, like was he talking to someone else? I don't know. Time management skills – okay, I have a problem with that. (Laughs). There's room for improvement. So we talked today. I sent him an e-mail back like, 'hey, I'm surprised and look forward to like getting your feedback, whatever. So the first half of the phone call we went over like the mission statement and the values and my job description and I was like, 'oh, my God, like I just wanted to shoot myself' like this is the worst phone conversation ever. Like, just let it end. And then we sort of went over like specific things, so like he thought I was unprofessional in like one e-mail where I was really sick and he thought I was being really sarcastic concerning something. Like I'd forgotten to send it, like it was a few hours late when I sent like a weekly report and he's like, 'hey, just a reminder that you have to send in your weekly report' and I was like, 'oh, oh, right.' So my first line was something like – and this is when I had the flu – I was like, 'oh, you're totally right, I'm so sorry I missed it. I just, I've been under the flu and I told him, I said, 'I'm sorry.' Then I sent in the report. And he thought that that first line was super sarcastic because we'd been talking about filling shifts and stuff while I was sick so he knew I was sick, he thought I was like, 'I'm sick, like I'm sorry it's late.' But like that's totally not how I meant it, like 'cause I'd been at that point I knew we were having issues with communication so I was like, I have to try to be more positive so my attempt at being more positive was taken as like super sarcastic and unprofessional and I was like, that's totally not what I meant. I'm really sorry if you took it that way, like I'll try to be clearer with my communication in the future.

THERAPIST: It's really hard over e-mail.

CLIENT: Yeah. That's what I said. I said something along the lines of like, I think this is one of those little blips because we mostly e-mail and you're far away. But I did say that I did ask him to e-mail me any time he thought I was being sarcastic or unprofessional and I asked him because one of the things that I really wanted to have during this conversation is like some of his e-mails are really, I feel like they're condescending where I feel like I'm being talked down to and I didn't quite know, like how do you say that to somebody? (Laughs) So he brought up some of my e-mail stuff and I was like, 'and while we're on the subject,' like I kind of wanted to touch that sometimes I might feel, I said something like, 'talked down to,' and it makes me feel, I forgot what I said. I tried to use I-statements. I did. And he's like, 'oh, okay.' So we agreed that we would send each other e-mails back and forth if we thought there was some issue. That was awesome. I was really happy after that. Because that's one of the bigger things that –

THERAPIST: Instead of just feeling that you've been told that you were bad, you found a way to find sort of a pro-active sort of stance in order to try to prevent future misunderstandings. And it made it a little more back and forth with both of you taking responsibility for how the communication goes.

CLIENT: Yeah. I felt like that was sort of –

THERAPIST: A very productive conversation.

CLIENT: It lasted an hour and a half so I wasn't doing anything. (Laughs) But I had like, I was so worried about this. Even when I got the e-mail, for the next four hours my stomach was like – I just like, I wasn't angry I was – I don't even know.

THERAPIST: Anxious.

CLIENT: Yeah, I guess. Maybe, I don't know. I like couldn't think about anything else and I was like – 'we found you to be, like 'these areas of concern, blah, blah, blah, 'we'd like to schedule a conference call if changes in these areas do not occur, we'll seek appropriate leadership changes.' So like, that was his e-mail and it was like, there's got to be a better way to say that. There's got to be a better way. (Laughs) So that was kind of the –

THERAPIST: Yeah, he gave an ultimatum.

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: Change what I tell you or you're fired.

CLIENT: Right. And I feel like those three days –

THERAPIST: In a nicer way –

CLIENT: Right.

THERAPIST: But still, it's pretty threatening.

CLIENT: But I feel like those three areas, like we found you to be unprofessional. Well, they didn't say that but that's how I understood it. Unprofessional – the three areas – unprofessional, time management and the other one – poor leadership. If you aren't that for my job like that's like you're – those are the essential job functions, like those are like core things that you do for the job. So like it's kind of understood that like my job is kind of in jeopardy here like there's no need to end it with like – I don't know – I found that you know to be so frustrating. And then yesterday I kind of chilled out but like I don't know, like –

THERAPIST: What were their issues with your leadership style?

CLIENT: So, the scheduling. They keep trying to over staff us and I always send them an e-mail like we don't need any more staff, like (unclear) [00:34:15]. They finally won – they're hiring some one new, full time so we're not going to hours to go around but their problem with my leadership style is that I'm not – I hate this language – I'm not willing to like put myself in a negative position in front of my staff and defend their overstaffing of our location and I was like and that's not my problem at all, like I've put myself in negative positions with I might be viewed negatively with my staff before, it's not an issue. The issue is that this is unethical because that's what my problem is – I didn't say it quite like that. I said, 'we sign contracts that say that you're going to give us full time and we plan accordingly, like it doesn't seem fair to not have the hours to give us like to be full time. But, he's like well we need the flexibility. That's basically what it was, so we need the flexibility. So I'm sort of reconsidering my employment with them, like when I got that e-mail I immediately started searching for jobs because I was like freaked out. And I have an interview for part time Starbucks for [inaudible] position (laughs) and (unclear) [00:35:37]. I've been a Starbucks employee (ph) before and it's fun but it's not exactly relevant to my career goals.

THERAPIST: Would there be a way to combine, I notice you said part time for the position, to combine something that might be sort of on par with your future career plans?

CLIENT: So, I've been thinking about this over and over the past couple of days, but no one would ever hire me until May, right? So that's kind of the issue. So I was thinking of maybe holding out until March and then doing the part time (unclear) [00:36:13] thing and then maybe sitting home for a while or something.

THERAPIST: Nobody would hire you from a more medical position until May.

CLIENT: I've been looking. Like nobody – there's not really like temporary positions, really. They want at least one or two year commitments and I don't have that kind of time so I don't know. I think it will be fine like I was freaking out, I was like, oh my God, how am I going to pay the rent, like I was like stuff but then I spoke to my friend and she was like well you know you can do temp agencies, you can do tutoring, you can do more babysitting and I was like, 'okay, there are options.' I can do stuff (laughs). So, but that, I don't know. Like I was kind of on a low from coming home from home and then coming back to that was kind of crappy –

THERAPIST: A rough welcome.

CLIENT: Yeah, so I haven't been feeling so good recently. Because I think part of what really freaked me out about this call is like I don't think that I've been unprofessional or a poor leader, but like I wasn't really confident in that. Do you know what I mean? I couldn't really –

THERAPIST: You started to question your own perspective.

CLIENT: Right, right. And that's – I think it's healthy if it's done in like a – am I being, is there something better? But like, am I professional? I feel like for me that's like a really basic thing, where like I don't know, can I add?

THERAPIST: Like so, I mean it's important to look at the language so you don't know exactly what the wording in the e-mail was, but when you're taking it in and internalizing what they're saying really what he meant was we've noticed some behavior, we've read some e-mails that appear unprofessional to us. What they're really talking about is specific behavior, specific wording. Maybe a particular incident rather than you as a global personality trait and you've translated it in your head to 'I'm unprofessional,' – am I unprofessional? And you know, it's useful to look at our behavior and see how an event or an interaction might be perceived by others, it's not really useful to label yourself in entirety because very rarely are we all one thing.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: So I think, regardless of how he worded it, his wording might not have been perfect – (Laughs) Reading it seems to say, okay, 'did I act in a way that can be perceived as unprofessional? Did I word an e-mail in a way that could be misinterpreted rather than jumping to this like, 'am I unprofessional acting person?' And leadership style. Am I a good leader? That's really global versus what are the particular situations that they are seeing and how am I acting in those? And like you said, it can be really useful to evaluate behavior in specific incidents to look for room for growth, but to label yourself in entirety generally causes us to feel badly – isn't adaptive, doesn't help us grow.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know. That makes a lot of sense actually. Because I was like kind of – I started thinking like back when I was in college and doing all these things with city government and I was like, 'were all my e-mails super unprofessional then?'

THERAPIST: It only took one place and then put it everywhere.

CLIENT: And then I felt bad for like frustrating myself, too, because I don't really – I know this is really crappy but like I don't know, I can't tell anyone anyway.

THERAPIST: Nope.

CLIENT: But I just, I don't feel like he has a lot to – like I feel like that the way he talks and stuff, it's just bullshit, like it's just like language like you find in like a mission statement or, I don't know how to explain it. It's just like – I never felt like – 'oh my gosh, that's a really great idea.' Like, I'll start doing that. I've always felt like you're telling me whatever I need to do, like what do you have – like I've never felt like there's anything that he's ever said to me that I'm like -

THERAPIST: That brings a lot of [value] (ph). [00:40:55]

CLIENT: Right. I know that's really crappy to say about someone and especially your boss, but –

THERAPIST: It doesn't sound like he's a very good boss.

CLIENT: Right, right. I don't. And he's definitely new at the position. So I'm like sort of you know, like he's like 'I definitely like I understand. Like he would – I don't know. It kind of like a way that I can't explain. It's something that Leonard does too. He speaks in like this weird language that's like – it's almost like you're at a leadership conference and you're talking about like you're using all those words – I don't, and I'm like, 'just talk to me, tell me what you're thinking –

THERAPIST: You want something more straightforward.

CLIENT: Right. So, one of the things I asked for out of the conversation – the first thing I said was like, 'I need tangible things to work on,' like when the conversation was over, like 'give me a list of things,' like that I could do better like, so –

THERAPIST: Deliverable.

CLIENT: Right, right. And so because I feel like he hasn't ever really like contributed to the way I do my work, if anything he's like put more obstacles in the way or like made me do more paperwork that is totally irrelevant to what I do or whatever, I was like, oh, my gosh, I'm like this unprofessional person and this guy who I have little respect for like is telling me all this stuff and like I'm questioning myself and it's like, 'Jesus, I must be really terrified.' I don't know.

THERAPIST: So it sounds like it bothered you that you listened to his perspective and started to believe it to be true about yourself even though you don't respect him. And if you've never liked what he said before, why when he said something bad about you, is it so easy to believe?

CLIENT: Right. And so I think what that means is like what if someone that I like and really, really deeply respect, what if they say something bad about me – like am I going to start believing that? Like, what if it's not true? Or, I don't know.

THERAPIST: So, how can you hear what someone has to say regardless of who it is and then check it out for yourself and determine for yourself whether or not that makes sense for you – or to jump automatically to this place where, 'ooh, I'm really horrible because you said so.'

CLIENT: Yeah, that sounds like it.

THERAPIST: Like, 'oh, this person said this about me. Does that seem true?'

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, exactly, because I can't even imagine like if my advisor for my master's and she's writing me a letter of recommendation so I'm going to see her soon because she says like, 'well, you know, you're really not that smart. Like I'm going to – I think I met you for the rest of my life – (Laughs) that would be really hard to – I don't know, like –

THERAPIST: It seems like with someone with whom you have a good relationship, it's less likely to happen.

CLIENT: (Laughs) Sure.

THERAPIST: But if it does, let's see what she says and take what she says and give you practice at saying, 'do I agree or disagree?' There are lots of perspectives to be held. But we'll see what her recommendation says and use it as practice. Why don't we stop there for tonight?

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: Do we have a follow up scheduled? It was so long ago that I'm guessing you only said today but maybe not. Yeah, I don't think I see you yet on my schedule for the rest of January.

CLIENT: Oh. Okay.

THERAPIST: Do you want to try for every-other-week again sticking with your 4:20 so that –?

CLIENT: I can't – I guess I could for the 22nd.

THERAPIST: I'm also here that Monday, Martin Luther King Day if that's easier for you because some people have it off.

CLIENT: What time do you have available that day?

THERAPIST: It looks like I have a 10:30 or a 12:30. I could probably do a 1:30 as well.

CLIENT: Would that be hard?

THERAPIST: No.

CLIENT: Or the 4:20 the next day.

THERAPIST: Or I could do a 4:20 on the 22nd or I could do an 11:30 on the 22nd. But you usually don't like those.

CLIENT: I have an overnight that night so I'm just thinking that –

THERAPIST: When do you want to sleep?

CLIENT: Yeah. So I think maybe the 4:20 would be great.

THERAPIST: Okay. On the 22nd.

CLIENT: Um hmm. 4:20 not 6 p.m.

THERAPIST: And that puts us on February 5th.

CLIENT: Is that okay?

THERAPIST: Same time?

CLIENT: Yeah. Oh, you know what? It defaults to 6.

THERAPIST: Oh, why?

CLIENT: I don't know. So that's what it was.

THERAPIST: That's why it happened.

CLIENT: Oh, man. Okay. Could we do the 19th, too, just so that I have it. Because I'm about to do this schedule for February.

THERAPIST: Yep. You've got it.

CLIENT: Plus, I'm trying to figure out when I can work at Starbucks.

THERAPIST: But the Square, huh?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I don't go to the Square.

CLIENT: Too bad. You could have had a free coffee. (Laughs)

THERAPIST: (Laughs) Maybe if I change my commute. Save the dollar seventy-five.

CLIENT: When (unclear) was a professor I really liked or something they would come by, 'oh, I accidentally messed up this drink. I have to get rid of it.'

THERAPIST: According to the APA principals I'm not allowed to take a free coffee.

CLIENT: Oh, I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: Even if you do work at my Starbucks.

CLIENT: Oh, really.

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