TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

(starts at 00:01:12)

THERAPIST: Hi. Come on in. (pause)

CLIENT: How are you?

THERAPIST: Good. Thank you. (pause, sigh)

CLIENT: (deep breath) It's hot. (laughs) (labored breathing sounds, pause) We talked about a lot of stuff on Monday. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: (clears throat, sighs, pause) I'm wondering where to begin. (laughs, pause, labored breathing) [00:02:52]

There's a couple of things on my mind. Well yesterday I got a rejection from a magazine and it caused me to be (sniffs) a little sad and depressed. (laughs) But it's just, you know, the same kind of anxieties that come about. You know, like, "Oh God. No, I'm just not good enough. I don't have the talent." Or you know, "I've been at it for so many years. It's just never going to happen for me." Etcetera, etcetera.

And then I did an unusual thing and just kind of e-mailed my professor. (laughs) And I kind of said, "Hey, would you look at this story for me? You know. A magazine was interested and all that." (laughs) So he just looked at the beginning and sent me some comments. And he said, "I can tell right away the piece is good but, you know, it doesn't have this, this and this." You know? [00:04:18]

Just basically to do with the work and the execution. It wasn't vivid. Or you know, some of the images weren't clear. The piece was cluttered. So I mean, you know, I can work on that. But I just kind of have all these anxieties. Like, you know, when I work it's a very [effort] (ph) and just so much negativity has been collected around it.

Like, you know, all those rejections are making me feel like, "I hate this genre. I can never execute them well." (laughs) And then, you know, when you have to do it then you do it. But then I do such like a slapdash job at it. You know like half hearted and (sniffs) and I found a way to get the first draft ready and once it's ready then I just, you know, send it out. [00:05:34]

I don't like put it away calmly, patiently for a couple of weeks and go back to it and, you know, polish the piece. If I would just do that it would have those elements that it's lacking. I just feel so like incredibly anxious that I don't want to look at it anymore. I just want like approval or acceptance like right away. (laughs) You know?

THERAPIST: What's the urgency about?

CLIENT: I don't know. It's just like, "Please someone tell me it's good!" (laughs) And (blows nose) you know it's like no one I forget that I have to be patient. And I have to make it good. I have to make sure that the elements that the editors are looking for are in there. You know? So (pause, sniffs) [00:06:55]

I feel like, you know, that's what my colleagues have and they do that and they are successful. And I just don't have that and I don't know how to get it. And you're right in asking me like, "What's the urgency?" And, "What's the panic?" You know? (laughs, pause) I don't know. It's like I cannot proceed or something like (clears throat)

Well, previously it was like this. (clears throat) I had framed it in this way that, "Okay, so I want to work but I'm not sure if I have the talent. If I make it, if I get a few stories accepted, then I'll know I'll have the talent." And only then will I, you know, give up a career and whatever. Or, you know, or I might move on to something else. [00:08:01]

But over the years it's just happened like I felt like, "No, work really is the only thing that I want to do." There is, you know, like despite my mind not being patient, I've made my life such that I have patience. Like, you know, giving up jobs repeatedly. Gone back to school repeatedly. (laughs) Changed my living situation. You know, I've done all kinds of things to give myself the space to work. But my head, if only it would only cooperate with the rest of me. (laughs) The rest of my actions. [00:09:00]

(long pause)

I'm just amazed that like for other artists they know that if they shut their doors and they stay in and think it will come. They know that. And it does come. (sigh) But I feel like in my case when I shut the door, like most of the time what comes is negativity and fear and (laughs) like clutter. You know? And that really reflects in some of my work. It's unfortunate and (long pause) I don't know how to resolve this. (laughs) [00:10:36]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: (pause) Like what does it take to believe that I could do this? You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: What is required? What do I need?

THERAPIST: To believe in yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah. To believe that, you know, if I shut the door I will be able to find the things that I lack. (clears throat, pause) And that I will find, you know, structure, and I will find clarity and calm and (laughs) all that. (pause) Is there like a special ritual people do to have all these things? (laughs, clears throat) [00:12:01]

(pause) (sound of phone ringing)

THERAPIST: Oh, sorry about that.

(sound of phone ringing, pause)

THERAPIST: You ask very good questions.

CLIENT: I don't know if I have the answers. (laughs, pause)

THERAPIST: Well, I really think I can help you in this process.

CLIENT: Mm. That would be (laughs) very nice. (pause) [00:13:22]

If I could just like not feel like, "My gosh. I'm just going to fail." You know? Like, "This is never going to work." And (sigh) you know. (clears throat) Despite everything that people say and my teachers say, it's not going to happen for me. It's just too good and it won't. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm. (pause)

CLIENT: Hm. And then sometimes I tell myself, "What is there to be afraid of?" You know? Like no one's Yeah, I mean, I can do what I want to do. But then, you know, that isn't always helpful because then I just get careless and reckless. And for a good artist you can't just be reckless. You have to be very methodical and clear and logical and you need to follow a train of thought. You know, all those things. [00:14:40]

I feel like all that only comes from a place of positivity and confidence, not necessarily from a place of sarcasm and like depression or like (clears throat) recklessness. At least I'm not talented in that way that I can produce good stuff from recklessness. (laughs) Or wrecks. (long pause) [00:16:15]

And I just cannot understand why like approval is so necessary for me. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like without external approval like the things don't move forward. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Because I don't think you ever felt you got it.

CLIENT: You mean like recently?

THERAPIST: No. Growing up.

CLIENT: Well, is it that necessary?

THERAPIST: Yeah, I think so.

CLIENT: Well, like I think my Mom has been approving. (laughs)

THERAPIST: How? How do you feel -

CLIENT: What do you ?

THERAPIST: Yeah. How is she? Where is that feeling coming from?

CLIENT: What feeling?

THERAPIST: I have actually never heard you say that about your mother. So I'm curious more about that feeling that she is approving.

CLIENT: Well, not like just, you know, every since Well, yeah, since we came here she has always been like, "Yeah, do what you want to do." You know, like she's been a very unconventional like Nepaln mom. Like no pressure about getting married or, you know, anything like that. [00:17:31]

THERAPIST: When did you first know you wanted to be an artist?

CLIENT: I don't know. Like I always liked to read as a child. (clears throat) Yes, in college, like my Dad insisted that I do computer science because, you know, at that time it was the dot com boom. Then it was a bust by the time I graduated. (laughs) But I would have chosen to be like an architect or an English major.

So I took a lot of courses. And at that time I was in a church and I felt like this dichotomy between being an artist and being religious actually. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like I thought I couldn't be honest. And the kinds of pieces that I would work on would be very un-religious. (laughs) Like the church was so evangelical that I just thought everything was There was a binary. There was Christian and there was, you know, Christian or it was secular, as they called it, I think. Yeah. [00:18:48]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So, you know, if I were to be an artist the first option would be to produce something religious. You know, the only option. Otherwise God would not be happy and [stuff like that.] (ph) (laughs) But I remember thinking that and wondering like, "Would I have to give up being religious if I wanted to be the kind of artist that people like."

But I guess I decided to try it out at that time but I had to have a job and stuff, so (sigh) I didn't really start until I came to MSU, like three years ago. So up until then it was always like on the side with a job and school.

So (clears throat) it was at MSU where like all these prominent artists and teachers said, "You're really good." And you know like, "You should keep, you know, at it," and stuff. But that didn't make me any less afraid. And I'd be like, "Yeah." (laughs) "I don't know if I can give up a well paying job for " But, you know, three years later I've done that. So (laughs) [00:20:22]

And just like being with Chris (ph) is, like I said a few weeks ago, it's just like I feel like he's judging me all the time. (laughs) And it's not just in my head. Like he actually does judge people, well women, on the basis of how efficient they are. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Just women?

CLIENT: Yeah. I think so. Because of heard him speak dismissively about a couple of women and he's been dismissive just of their like work ethics. (sniffs) Not men.

THERAPIST: Why do you think just women?

CLIENT: I don't know. It must be some like biological male thing in him. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Really? All men are like that?

CLIENT: No not all men, but Chris (ph) is. (laughs) He's very political and, you know, like progressive and stuff, but (sniffs) he does have some shreds of like patriarchal behavior, I think. (laughs) [00:21:35]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: And he wouldn't [do something.] (ph) (clears throat, pause, sniffs) The thing is just like negative talk becomes like this ball, and they get all tangled up and they're just coming right at me. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Like the big boulder and I just get crushed. (sneezes) Excuse me.

THERAPIST: Bless you.

CLIENT: Thank you. (clears throat) I don't know what it's like to be free and free of anxiety, free of judgment and just like strong and bold and (sniffs), you know. (sneezes) Excuse me.

THERAPIST: Bless you.

CLIENT: But there are some artists who, you know, work under great duress. Like (sniffs) when there's censorship and all that and they probably, if you take them out of that environment they wouldn't know how to function because these things that restrict them also give them structure. [00:22:45]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: So, if I didn't have like (clears throat, sniffs) things that I was critical of I would probably not want to be an artist at all. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: If I didn't have a shitty childhood or if I hadn't seen injustice or experienced it myself, I don't know if I would care to be an artist. But how do you separate material from the working process. (laughs, pause, sniffs) And you know, Dad was completely, when I did suggest it to him (inaudible at 00:23:45) laugh at my face. (inaudible) (laughs, pause)

I don't know what to do about my fears. (laughs, pause) And I didn't know what a chicken I was until the thing with Victor (ph). (laughs) And that was the second thing that's on my mind because he e-mailed and said he wants to meet to return my CDs or DVDs. (sniffs) I kind of was very anxious. So anxious that I had an upset stomach the whole day yesterday (ph). (sniffs) [00:25:20]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But I didn't know like whether I should meet him or not because I brought him a few DVDs from Nepal and now he wants to return them. And it's like, isn't this playing this game to like reject me constantly? You know?

And I was wondering if I should meet him and I would say, "You should ask your therapist (ph)." (laughs, clears throat) If I don't meet him I'll be curious. But if I do meet him there is every possibility that, you know, he will hurt me again. (laughs)

THERAPIST: You have a hard time seeing Chris (ph) as your boyfriend.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well, if you cheated on him and he is your boyfriend, he probably doesn't want you to see the person who -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So the fact that you asked him is so striking.

CLIENT: Well it wasn't quite like I did ask him, but we were on my computer and his e-mail just popped up. (laughs) So I couldn't hide it from him. But like seeing Victor (ph), I mean I have absolutely no, like I don't You know, we're not going to get back together and do anything. I'm pretty sure of that. He's already, you know, moved on. And I don't know if I want to do anything with him. [00:26:55]

But, I mean, you're right that it's weird that I asked Chris (ph) and that I have a hard time seeing him as my boyfriend. Because in my head like it's really just like we're good friends. And even to the point of being, you know, like brothers, like siblings. My mom also says, "You know, you guys have a sibling rivalry going on."

THERAPIST: Sibling rivalry?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: What's the rivalry part?

CLIENT: Well, who is better. You know? Who is more popular. Who has got more friends. Who is more successful. All of this is Chris (ph) right now. And I don't think it's just Chris (ph). Like I used to have this rivalry with my first boyfriend as well. In that case I won. (laughs)

THERAPIST: It's interesting because I hear more about you sort of looking up to Chris (ph) and sort of seeing his more of a parental figure, less about the rivalry part, the sibling rivalry part.

CLIENT: Yeah. It's very complicated. (laughs) I mean I do look up to him but it's also, it's like I don't know if this is the David and Goliath thing where, you know, I'm trying to bring Goliath down by competing with him. [00:28:16]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Because, you know, they compete. They fight and that is a competition of strength. Like who is, you know. Or not strength but strength and wisdom. I don't know. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But maybe this also comes from the fact that he is judgmental. You know? And just to get away from it I have to kind of show him that, "Well, you're not good at everything." Or you know like (sniffs, laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But I feel like I have to realize, you know, like I cannot keep comparing myself. It's just that I'm not going to measure up because he's maybe had a head start that I hadn't. Or you know, we are just so different.

THERAPIST: What do you think you're competing for?

CLIENT: Approval. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Of the world. You know? (pause) Like, yeah. And then sometimes when I was with Victor (ph) I guess it did kind of feel like, "Who does he love more? Me or Chris (ph)?" (laughs) [00:29:38]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: (sniffs, pause) So it makes it difficult for me to think of him as a boyfriend if he's a, you know, parental figure and a sibling.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And God knows what else. (laughs) A son.

THERAPIST: A son too?

CLIENT: Yeah, because, you know, all Nepalese men are babies. All mothers [more as] (ph) boys, you know so they have to be looked after. (laughs, sigh, pause) Sometimes I guess I wonder if our relationship will be successful because it's so messy and complicated. And Chris (ph) constantly wonders if I actually love him or I'm in love with him. But I don't know. (laughs) [00:31:44]

THERAPIST: And you question that too.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean I was convinced I wasn't in love with him. Then, you know, like all this crap happened. (laughs) And then it's like it's probably better not to be in love anyone if that's what love is. (laughs) You know?

So I guess we realized we need each other because we've been together for so long. And it's just better to be with each other than not. You know? Like the daily life. Of course we're weak and we didn't even give it Well, I don't know. I stayed in that apartment for a couple of months or more, September, October and half of November. August, half of August. Yeah, three months.

So it wasn't pleasant. You know, like but it wasn't awful. But I mean it's the quality of life I feel is better with Chris (ph) because, you know, we cook together and we talk and we share. I don't know. Like sharing life I feel has meaning and it brings life meaning. [00:33:13]

But I do also wonder like, "What is the cost of it?" You know? Like what am I giving up by living with Chris (ph). To me I feel like what I'm giving up is, you know, nights alone by myself that I would probably waste surfing the web or you know. (laughs) Or, you know, if I was dating and going out on stupid dates with, you know, men I probably would not at all like. (laughs, pause) Or you know just being shut in my room and you know. (sigh, pause) [00:34:31]

Yeah, so I mean I thought it's preferable to have like steady constant love than to be in love and having up and down and it will drive you crazy. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: And I don't think Chris (ph) wants that anyway. You know? I don't know. I mean, of course, he is not up and down, he is constant. But I don't think he cares very much if I'm in love with him or not. You know? As long as I'm not in love with someone else of course. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But what's the point? You know, like I did so much for Victor (ph) but it just wasn't enough. Or, you know, like just because I was sexually suppressed, or I wasn't mature enough for him. You know, I was a drama queen. All of the other things just didn't matter. [00:35:39]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You know, like what's so wrong? Like he throws me out of bed and I get drunk. Is that so horrible? Like objectively would you throw someone out because they, you know, you push them out of bed and they're drinking in your living room? Would you push that guy out of your house just because of that? (laughs)

THERAPIST: Is that a question to me?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Would you?

CLIENT: I don't know. I'm trying to think like Victor (ph) and he has me convinced that, yes, that is the right thing to do.

THERAPIST: So you're asking me because you want to know if that is okay? You're kind of testing your judgment or questioning your judgment?

CLIENT: Yeah. I'm just tired of like feeling responsible. You know, that we broke up because I did this. You know? Like everything was my fault. Like, you know, I'm not good enough and this, this and this. And so that's why I don't have him. But I don't know. I'm just like wondering what's so bad about doing that? You know, throwing a tantrum as he says. (laughs) [00:36:52]

THERAPIST: Well he's not coming from it from the angle of empathy and caring. He's coming from the angle of judgment.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And also absolving himself of any responsibility -

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: for his own decisions and reactions. And his own troubles and problems as if you have all of them.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: His own confusion and conflict and unhappiness.

CLIENT: Unhappiness?

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean I guess I generally think that people who treat other people badly have some unhappiness. Who don't treat them with kindness.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: They are taking some internal distress out on other people.

CLIENT: Yeah. (sniffs)

THERAPIST: I mean if one of your goals is to be more generous with yourself, which you've talked about, it helps to have people around you who are generous to you too. [00:38:06]

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean it's been really hard because I think of him and how he treated me, and I just sometimes think, "Yeah, yeah, he was right to throw me out. I'm a horrible person." (laughs) So that is not good, obviously. It's not going to make me be very generous with myself. (sigh)

So I mean that's what I'm saying. When I get really tired of feeling like that I'm like, "You know, wait a minute. (laughs) It wasn't that wrong." You know, like because (pause, sniff, laughs) [00:39:08]

THERAPIST: But you feel a lot of guilt. And I think that that guilt can obscure your vision.

CLIENT: Guilt for what?

THERAPIST: So many things. Even you're talking about the sibling rivalry with Chris (ph) and how you look at Chris (ph) and feel about him. You feel a lot of guilt about it. You feel guilt towards your mother.

CLIENT: Yeah. I wonder if it's, you know, the parting gift of the church. (laughs)

THERAPIST: (laughs) That's very interesting.

CLIENT: [Well, you know, that is] (ph) how they operate. Right? Like they guilt trip you into absolutely everything.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I'm sure I felt guilty before I became religious.

THERAPIST: I think so. And I imagine that the church fed into it. Not to say that the church didn't do a lot of good things for you too.

CLIENT: Oh yeah.

THERAPIST: But the more problematic side is controlling people's behavior through guilt.

CLIENT: Yeah. But like with Chris (ph) how do I? What do you mean that I feel guilty? [00:40:23]

THERAPIST: It seems like you feel guilty at times for how you feel about him.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) We're kind of in this circle. Like if I feel too guilty then I'll say, you know, "I'm leaving." And if I do leave then both he and will be miserable. And then, you know, want to get back together. (laughs) So how do you get rid of guilt?

THERAPIST: Well, for starters by talking about all the things that you feel guilty about and sorting them out. Kind of like what you're doing with Victor (ph). Like trying to question, 'Well, is what I did really that bad?"

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Rather than just sort of swallowing it. Taking the parting gift.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean in a sense that, what is Victor's (ph) parting gift? The guilt?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: "Look how badly you've behaved and this is what you get in return." [00:41:34]

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause) So questioning the guilt. Huh? (laughs) There's a long list of questions then. (pause, sniffs) But I feel like I am making progress. I mean like I would just, you know, feel this constantly and not even be aware of it until recently when I'm like, "Wait a second. Why am I feeling so horrible about watching a movie in the middle of the day on December 27th." (laughs) You know? [00:43:05]

My week off from school and work. Oh that's right. You're sitting next to me and writing for this political website while I'm just not doing anything. (laughs) Got it. (laughs) You know? And you've just criticized this other woman for being an airhead, or not getting things done on time. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm.

But how do I distance myself from that? Like how? I mean you can't Like if we were married, you know, it wouldn't be Would it be grounds for divorce? You know? Would we just talk about it and he would learn how to be less judgmental? If that's possible. And if I couldn't, what would I do? You know, short of breaking up with him. [00:44:03]

And I tell myself, "You know, that's just his insecurity." You know? Like if he doesn't work he doesn't feel like he exists. But that's not the case for me and it's okay. I don't feel very competent (ph). (laughs)

THERAPIST: Well it's hard now because he is tapping into a feeling you have about yourself.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And so it's confusing. And it's reinforcing. And there's a part of you that likes that attitude of his because you feel it motivates you.

CLIENT: Yeah. Sadly.

THERAPIST: And it's true that I do think over time, where you feel stronger in this and less judgmental of yourself and less reliant of judgment to feel like that's what will motivate you. The question is, what Chris (ph) is offering, is that going to be too much of a departure from what you need? [00:45:12]

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well when you need his criticism or judgment less.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And when it's not something you want anymore. The question is, is that going to be tolerable to you? His feeling. I don't know the answer to that, but that's my question.

CLIENT: So if I don't need his judgment to motivate me.

THERAPIST: And also if you feel less judgmental about yourself, would you want to break up with him over that because you don't want that anymore?

CLIENT: Yeah. I've wondered that. Like if I can provide structure and motivation from my own self, what would be the basis of our relationship? You know?

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: Well, we'll see. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Cecelia (ph), we have to stop for today. Okay.

CLIENT: Yeah. (laughs) See you Monday.

THERAPIST: I'll see you on Monday. Yes.

CLIENT: Thank you.

THERAPIST: Thank you very much.

CLIENT: Okay.

END TRANSCRIPT