TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

[Silence from 00:00:00 to 00:01:20]

THERAPIST: Hi. Come on in. (pause) [00:02:00]

CLIENT: I'm hot. Let me just take this off. (pause) Did you have a nice weekend?

THERAPIST: I did. Thank you.

CLIENT: (laughter) Were you here or did you go to Ohio?

THERAPIST: I was here. What made you think about Ohio?

CLIENT: Oh, just, you went to Ohio last time.

THERAPIST: Oh, I was in Ohio. Right. When I had a day off at that time.

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: Right. I think that was over Christmas.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. [00:03:00]

This weekend I cleared out my apartment. So, it's particularly tiny, so it's like, it was okay to, you know, to crash with him when it was just, you know, a few of my things, but now, you know, with everything it's like it's over flowing. (pause) I guess I'm a bit nervous about like living with him in earnest. I think it was all fun when it was all like under the covers, so to speak, because, you know, I still I had my place and I was paying rent, so I could say, you know, officially I have my own place and like when people asked where do you live and almost immediately say the Square and I will say no, I live in the Square and now I can't say that anymore. [00:04:30]

(pause) I guess it's like what you said. You know, you give up a little bit of your independence so you can have someone take care of you or you can have advantages, but then you have the risk of them taking over or like not giving you enough space and you know you feel that you'll lose sight of yourself or what you want. So, I guess I'm just a little apprehensive about that happening. [00:05:45]

I guess some people are okay with that, but I don't know if I am. [00:06:00]

[silence from 00:06:00 to 00:09:00]

THERAPIST: Where did you go?

CLIENT: I was thinking of several things. Like, yeah. I don't know how to... I was thinking about living by myself versus living with Chris (sp?) and the kind of people I admire and the anxieties it brings me, but then if I don't see him then I kind of feel that something's missing or something essential is missing. Like, yesterday I crashed this gentleman's tea that one of my friends was having. He invited Chris and he's very particular. Like, he invited me and didn't invite Chris. So, and now he invited Chris, but not me. [00:10:00]

I was dropping him off so he was like this is silly, just come in. I was like no. This guy, he's a bit older. He's like, I think he's almost 50 now, but he's a professor at one of these universities here and like and he had three other professors at his place and like, and they're all like deal like and one is the professor of English and the other is like Hindi and stuff and so like they all deal with Nepal and stuff, but so I just kind of listen to them talking and they're variously patriarchal in different ways. I mean, like, one guy doesn't even look at me, but his stories are very interesting and stuff and he talks a lot. [00:11:10]

So. Yeah. And the guy whose place I went to, you know, he's very neat and clean and likes beautiful things and I like the way he lives by himself and maintains a very nice kind of environment. It's a very nice place. So, I was just thinking about that places versus my mom's place right now or, you know, my parent's place right before they got divorced. They separated and what a mess that was and I feel like, you know, that's where I quote unquote come from and I detest that and I never want to be like that. I want to be like this friend of mine. You know, like, have pretty things or create pretty things and think about literature and language and history and engage with the world in this nice, cute, little place. [00:12:30]

But then I also see the limitation of that role. It's like nothing bad happened in it. If something bad happens, it's happened in like the 16th century and nothing, nothing violent here, you know.

THERAPIST: Nothing bad happens in what?

CLIENT: My friend's world.

THERAPIST: Oh, I see.

CLIENT: I'm sure it does, but not that I. I don't see it that way.

THERAPIST: How is it protected from nothing bad?

CLIENT: I don't know. Right? I don't see ugliness. It's so obvious to me in my scenario. You know? (pause) I mean I see what you're trying to say. This is going to my thinking where I think oh, everything bad is in my life and people, other people don't have sorrow. Am I right? [00:13:30]

THERAPIST: Maybe. I mean I guess that's, that's maybe an interpretation of what I'm saying. Except I'm questioning how you're thinking about it. So, I guess you could say it's a flaw, but I'm also just wondering how you think that happens. Like, the process.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah. In my childhood everything was just, well, like the house physically was never pretty. Like, my mom was never interested in maintaining the picture perfect household. Maybe because she was always having to work and then didn't have enough strength to come back home and cook as well as beautify the place. Plus, you know, that whole tension of dealing with my dad and his many, many affairs probably made her, you know, debilitated her psychologically or emotionally so that she didn't really care about wanting to do, you know, wanting to straighten up or make it look nice. So, it was always a mess and it physically looked bad. You know? Well, you know I didn't have a choice back then. [00:15:00]

I mean I would clean up. I would clean up and then it would be messy again. When I was away at college this would always happen every break. I would come and really, really clean up. Bleach and things and put everything messy away and then I would come back and it would be worse than when it left it. Then living with my mom was like a daily struggle. Daily. She would make a mess and then I would clean up and it would keep happening over and over and over again. Now her place, she can make how much a mess as she wants and it is messy. There's a dining table that is always full of notebooks and papers and coupons and all kinds of various things and I just find that very depressing. You know? It's like defeat. You know? I try not to be that messy. So. The people whose homes I go to, they also don't seem to be messy. So. [00:16:30]

I feel, I guess what I'm trying to think is maybe they do have sorrow, but somehow they are able to deal with it so that it doesn't defeat them in all the aspects sort of like in areas. In this area at least, you know. In the area of physical cleanliness.

THERAPIST: Does it defeat you?

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: You said it doesn't defeat them in this area. So, I'm asking you if it defeats you?

CLIENT: Well, it defeats my mom, I guess. Yeah. (pause) I mean it defeats me in other areas that I really don't like which is to just kind of shut up and not be interested in anything and not want to engage in anything. Like, be afraid of a lot of things. [00:17:30] (pause)

Yeah, I mean, I don't know. [00:18:30]

[Silence from 00:18:30 to 00:21:00]

I guess I wonder if like the thing that I'm most afraid of with my mom is her passivity. Maybe? You know? Like, just seeing her but just maybe not. I don't know if that's very accurate. She wasn't passive in any other ways. Like, she was always working and as much as should could she fought me and defended me against my father, but to me, certain aspects of her seeming passive maybe could cloud all of the other aspects. You know? I don't know. Do you think she's very passive? I think you said earlier like her, I don't know, you said something that might contradict this.

THERAPIST: You second guessed yourself. [00:22:15]

CLIENT: No. Earlier I thought I you said something about the way she was talking to me was aggressive or something about it. Something was aggressive. I don't know what exactly now.

THERAPIST: I don't see the two, being passive and being aggressive, are mutually exclusive.

CLIENT: That's true. There are things that are passive and aggressive.

THERAPIST: There is.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I know. [00:22:40]

[Silence from 00:22:40 to 00:24:00]

Yeah. I mean all these people who I admire they seem to have to be so active. You know, like, mostly they have been active intellectually just because Chris only met other intellectuals and I would like to meet a lot of people as well, but they seem to be so active and they seem to do so much and I just want, you know, a little bit of that for myself. I want to be kind of active in stuff and... (pause) [00:25:20]

I'm not making very much sense today. Sorry. I don't know if I...

THERAPIST: Do you feel distracted or do you feel sort of very internally focused?

CLIENT: I feel sleepy. (laughter) I don't know if I'm completely alert and engaged and active and thinking. I'm trying hard to be alert.

THERAPIST: Where is your mind going otherwise?

CLIENT: Well, I'm just thinking about different things, but it's not really like anything streamlined or a narrative even. You know? [00:26:20]

I just feel kind of burdened after looking at all of my stuff and even though I'm not looking at it right now, it's just like in the back of my head and it's like oh, God. I feel way down about it. I just want to fix it or, you know, put it away so that the room looks like it used to look. You know, sparse and not really cluttered at all. So. Clutter makes my head cluttered for some reason. Sometimes I have difficulty making space in my head. So. Plus I just feel very anxious that now I'm living with Chris in earnest and what does that mean? What if it doesn't work out and all of that? [00:27:25]

THERAPIST: What does in earnest mean? What do you mean by that?

CLIENT: When I don't have any pretenses. I don't have any excuses. Like, I'm not going to be paying rent in the other place anymore. Yeah. It's totally gone. Like, yeah. Previously, I would tell other people yeah, I live, you know, at this other place. So.

THERAPIST: And, now you say you live with Chris?

CLIENT: I haven't said anything yet to anyone. (laughter) Maybe I'll say I live with my mom.

THERAPIST: You don't want people to know that you live with Chris?

CLIENT: I don't know yet. I like him, but I just don't feel like too much. I don't feel like this one is it. You know, take his arm and, you know, walk down the street or, you know, declare my love or anything like that. I don't know. It feels like somewhat of a compromise and so. [00:29:00]

I guess I don't want to think too much about it. (pause)

THERAPIST: What are you compromising?

CLIENT: Oh, I don't know. I mean I appreciate him a lot and yeah, I guess, I mean it's nothing negative. It's just that as I'm leaning and I felt more positive about this on Saturday. I just had a better day, I guess. (laughter) [00:30:00]

I was telling one of my friends about this actually. It was very positive about Chris and me. Our kind of dynamic is just not as effusive. You know, it's not like, yeah, it's not like, you know, it was with, I felt with Oren or anything. That's you know, separate, of course. With Chris, it's more kind of subdued. So, I guess I'm learning that that can also be love. You know. It doesn't have to be, you know, intense or like declared or anything like that. It can be quiet and subdued and like mellow. [00:31:00]

So, I'm learning that I can feel love too, but then I guess somewhere, like, but that feels like a compromise. (laughter) So, I guess I just have to analyze that thought and wonder like is it a compromise or is it just what it is? You know? I don't have to judge it and call it positive or negative. You know? (laughter)

THERAPIST: Are you compromising your values, your wishes, your dreams?

CLIENT: Yeah. I guess. I mean, like, I guess the hope of finding someone more emotional. You know?

THERAPIST: Yeah. [00:32:00]

CLIENT: But... (pause) Yeah. I shouldn't say it's a compromise. It's kind of a very bad thing to say. If Chris heard it, he would be so upset.

THERAPIST: You don't think he'd know?

CLIENT: I hope not. He's not very perceptive in these things.

THERAPIST: That's good.

CLIENT: (laughter)

THERAPIST: Thank God.

CLIENT: (laughter) Well, he's not. What can I say?

THERAPIST: And, how do you think he thinks about your involvement with Victor (sp?)?

CLIENT: He doesn't think about it. I mean yeah, that's, and I constantly bring, I mean at certain times. Not recently, but previously I would bring it up too much and he would just be, you know, very frustrated, but if I don't bring it up, you know, he's not thinking about it at all. So, I don't know. I mean aren't men really good at compartmentalizing and stuff? So, maybe that's what he has done. Yeah. [00:33:30]

I'm not saying he's not smart or anything. It's just that he focuses his energies on work. You know?

THERAPIST: I was going to say he's man, not an idiot.

CLIENT: (laughter) What? No, he's not an idiot. I would not say that. I mean he, no, that's not it. I get to ride him too much. I think that's very bad. I call him stupid and idiot and all that, but really what I'm saying is that he's just so focused on his work that he doesn't notice a lot of things around him. Like, I threw him a surprise birthday party and we were living together in a little, tiny apartment and he was like working right there and I was like right here in the kitchen. Cooking, cooking, cooking. I just, yeah, he didn't even notice. Maybe once he said what are you doing and I said oh, you know, just making a nice meal for ourselves. For the two of us. You know? He said okay and went back to his studying. So, that's what I think of him as, you know, not very sharp, not very perceptive because he's so focused and I don't mean to take advantage of that by, you know, constantly cheating on him or anything, but I could take advantage of it to surprise him. You know? [00:35:15]

I guess now to like kind of not be really honest about the move, about moving back with him, but I feel like this is my own kind of psychological issue that I could slowly get over and deal with it here instead of bothering him with it.

THERAPIST: Well, I'm not quite, bothering him with it. What does that mean?

CLIENT: Well, and I always and this way might be lessening a bit now that I'm feeling a little better, but that's my kind of modus operendi. That is what I feel like every time I go to him. It feels like I'm bothering him and taking him away from work. [00:36:15]

THERAPIST: Well, if you're telling him what's on your mind is taking him away from work, why do you think he wants to be in a relationship with you? Why wouldn't he just see that as a distraction?

CLIENT: Yeah. I don't know. He says he likes me and loves me and wants me to be in his life because I make things better. So. Yeah. That doesn't involve too much talking, I guess. Well, I mean I don't know. Things are better with him than they would be with someone else. That's for sure. I mean they just, this weekend, we were taking a walk and all of a sudden I remembered something about my dad and that really pissed me off and I got very angry. [00:37:30]

You know, he listened and didn't say too much and yeah. I didn't feel as bad about that or as sad about that as I would have earlier when I really was constantly comparing him with Victor. I remembered oh, Victor is so perceptive and, you know, he would have hugged me and kissed me and said all these nice things. (laughter) Now I'm like thinking oh well, yeah he had ulterior motives for doing all of that. So. It's okay that Chris is not effusive or emotional. Yeah. He's not, he's not gallant. You know? But, he's, he really is, he's different. I don't know. I mean it might not work out. I might have to move out again. (laughter)

THERAPIST: What would not working out look like?

CLIENT: What do you mean? [00:39:00]

THERAPIST: When you say not work out, what do you mean?

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: On whose part, I guess?

CLIENT: Both our parts. (pause) I don't know why I said that. Well, I guess I meant like I might realize that I guess we've really exhausted all that there was to talk about. You know, or the things that we shared have kind of have come to kind of an end. That we've changed or he really wants someone more vibrant or more politically active or more academic. [00:40:00]

THERAPIST: Has he expressed that?

CLIENT: Kind of. Yeah. I mean when we've talked about you know, like, what we see the other person lacking. (pause) I think we're both very clingy, so it's hard to break up. (laughter)

THERAPIST: That's one of the first things that you guys talked about when you came in as a couple.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Is it simply sort of familiarity that is keeping you together? [00:41:00]

CLIENT: Yeah. That's the case, but it's very good familiarity. It's not like my old, you know, like more familiar brand of butter or something. It's more than that. There's a lot of affection there. Concern and love, so, you know. And, trust, you know, by what I did. So.

THERAPIST: I do think when I think about the two of you as a couple, there's definitely a stuckness to it. You guys are kind of in a holding pattern.

CLIENT: Yeah. Did you say that negatively? [00:42:00]

THERAPIST: Is being stuck ever positive?

CLIENT: Okay. (laughter) I'm hoping.

THERAPIST: I mean when you said it's negative. Let me turn it around. How is stuck being positive?

CLIENT: Well, you're stuck, that means you won't fall off. You're like solid-ish.

THERAPIST: That's interesting. Very interesting interpretation.

CLIENT: Well, you know. There's some solidity to that. You're not floating away or something. (laughter) I don't know.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean I guess that's very interesting and my thought to that is maybe there's a feeling on your part that that's the only way that you can feel secure is if you're stuck.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because you're absolutely right. I mean stuck. I think stuck typically has a negative connotation, but there is certainly that aspect of it. That there is stability. You're stuck to something. You aren't going to fall off of something. Absolutely. [00:43:00]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But, on the flip side, by definition stuck inhibits growth. There is no possibility for movement or growth.

CLIENT: Yeah. But, you have to be sure what direction you want to go, right?

THERAPIST: That's true, but even if you're sure or even if you have a sense, it's hard to do so if you are stuck.

CLIENT: Yeah. No. I see that. I'm saying that I might not even know where I want to, what part of me I want to grow.

THERAPIST: Right. Right. So, that's, so I was thinking about you as a couple. Right? That was a comment.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And, for you, I don't necessarily, I see you as a couple as stuck, but I don't see you in particular as stuck. I mean there's a stuckness to it, but there is also something going on internally and externally in terms of you're having conversations. We're having conversations together. Where you're trying to understand more about what being different or going a different path would look like and what it would mean. So, I don't actually see, I do see a piece of you is stuck, but I wouldn't actually describe you as stuck. [00:44:10]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Specifically or sort of as a general comment as much as I would describe your relationship as stuck.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because it's literally like not going. Almost like by route of it not going in any direction it just kind of goes like this.

CLIENT: You mean the relationship?

THERAPIST: Yeah. You move out. You move back in. You do this. You do that. But, it basically stays in the same space. I mean that's really how I think about it.

CLIENT: Like what would be unstuck? What would that look like?

THERAPIST: Well, I guess one more sort of obvious is like deciding whether or not you are going to be together or not.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Whether you're going to get married. Whether you're going to make a commitment. Moving in together and not telling anybody is stuck. That's just a version of not doing anything. [00:45:00]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: We're going to do something different, but we're not going to say that it's different. And, if you sort of, if you do something but don't identify to something different is it even something different ultimately? I mean, in your mind, it's sort of a variation of the same thing or at least hoping to keep it that way. So, even movement is described as the same thing as stuck.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: We need to stop for today. I'm sorry. I didn't mean to end so abruptly. Thank you for coming in a little earlier.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I appreciate it.

CLIENT: No problem.

THERAPIST: And, I will see you on Wednesday.

CLIENT: At 9:00?

THERAPIST: At our regular time, yes.

CLIENT: Okay. Have a good day.

THERAPIST: Okay, take care.

CLIENT: Bye.

END TRANSCRIPT