TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:

BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi [client name 0:00:04]. I'm so sorry I'm running late today. Come on in. I'm really sorry about that. (silence) Here you go.

CLIENT: Oh, thanks. (silence) How are you?

THERAPIST: Good, thank you.

CLIENT: (cough) (silence) Well, I guess...let's see. I wanted to ask you about...remember what you said last time about being stuck in stuff? (laughs) [0:01:08] (silence) But, like, a lot of people don't, you know, marry or, you know, sometimes they feel stuck.

THERAPIST: I'm not sure I understand the question.

CLIENT: Well you said last time that, Chris (ph) and I are kind of stuck.

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: So I just wanted...and you said, and I'm not moving forward, like, with commitment or, like, marriage or stuff. But I'm just wondering, like, a lot of people don't get married. So, you know, is that the only way one can feel unstuck or? [0:02:04]

THERAPIST: No, I was saying you guys are stuck as a couple. If you're not in a relationship, you can't be stuck as a couple because you're not in the relationship.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Do you see what I'm saying?

CLIENT: No. (laughs)

THERAPIST: I'm saying the two of you as a couple are stuck.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah.

THERAPIST: So, I guess if someone is single, they're not stuck as a couple. Because [crosstalk 0:02:25].

CLIENT: No, no. I mean, like, other couples. You know, they don't necessarily get married or, like, are they stuck? I don't know.

THERAPIST: That's an interesting question. Yeah, I actually wasn't commenting as much on your guys not getting married as stuck.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Yeah, I mean you guys are just doing the same thing.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You're not growing together.

CLIENT: (crying) How...what would that look like?

THERAPIST: You're just sort of repeating.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You're just repeating. I mean, I guess it wouldn't be making a commitment to each other, not necessarily marriage per se.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But committing to the relationship and...that's a good question. I can't really describe it or I need to put the words to it.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. (cough)

THERAPIST: The way...there's a way that you're just repeating, and repeating, and repeating.

CLIENT: Yeah. Mm-hmm. [0:04:00]

THERAPIST: And I think maybe a commitment is a piece of it. But a commitment would be a...the commitment isn't itself wouldn't be...it would be the byproduct of something else that would happen. Do you see what I'm saying? I don't think the commitment itself is what it is, but I think the commitment would represent something that's happening in the relationship.

CLIENT: Like what?

THERAPIST: You don't really know what to do with him? You're deeply ambivalent about the relationship. You don't know what to do with him. You're not quite sure if this is what you want. You feel like important aspects of what you want from a relationship are missing. Other important aspects are there. You have these particular dynamics...father, daughter, siblings...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...not a lot of man and woman. [0:05:00]

CLIENT: Mm-hmm. How did I make that happen? (laughs)

THERAPIST: Well it's something you created together but, you know, both...each of you, because of your own needs and struggles. And certainly, you know, our job together is to look at your piece of it.

CLIENT: Hmm. [silence 0:05:42 0:06:18] I don't know what a man and woman relationship is, I guess. I don't know. Maybe I've never been in one. (laughs)

THERAPIST: I think that's true.

CLIENT: But I've been in relationships. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Certainly...you certainly didn't witness it growing it up. In a way, your dad almost seems like a little boy who can't help himself who just acts with his own impulses.

CLIENT: That's truthful a lot. Yeah.

THERAPIST: And your mother sort of had to hold down the responsibility.

CLIENT: Yeah. [silence 0:06:59 0:07:20] So that wasn't, like, an ideal man woman relationship?

THERAPIST: Are you questioning whether your parents were not an ideal relationship?

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: Was that really a question?

CLIENT: Well, maybe sometimes they might have been.

THERAPIST: Really, when?

CLIENT: I don't know. (cough) Well, I, you know, analyze...overanalyze everything I've done. And if I at one time one act was to seem normal, then later time one wasn't, so...(laugh) Sometimes there was, like...there were communal rides in the inner-city and we were living in what my dad considered to be a dangerous area.

So he made the decision that we'd move to a different place. I thought that was being responsible of him, but that ended up backfiring at my mom in a very bad way. Like, she had to leave her...the apartment she left, they had kind of...left their things, you know, [unintelligible 0:08:55].

So that was a bad thing to have lost that place. Everyone in my family has felt that that was her fault. (laugh) But, I mean as bad as I...that's, you know...and...I don't know. But with Chris (ph), I don't really know what to do in the sense that maybe neither of us put too much energy into our...into this.

We're just kind of carrying on, you know, without really looking at it or, like, without really being aware. I mean that's possible, right? (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm-hmm.

CLIENT: I'm not really, like, thinking what does he want, highly vocalizing it and I really don't care if we really, you know, put up a fight for ourselves. [0:10:10] I think he said it wasn't...maybe it's more true for him that's he's very afraid to hurt me. (laughs) So...

THERAPIST: Hurt you how?

CLIENT: Well just, like, very afraid to say anything, like, he says he double guesses himself a lot. And this used to happen, like, earlier when I used to be more soft, like, I would throw tantrums, or whatever, or get very mad. But... (silence)

THERAPIST: What would you throw tantrums over?

CLIENT: Well I just felt very, very trapped in everything. [0:11:04] Like when I decided to take a job, and Chris (ph) was finishing his thesis. And my mom didn't have a job, so I felt really trapped and I couldn't [unintelligible 0:11:20], and stuff. So... (crying) [silence 0:11:21 0:11:47]

I don't know. So that...the...that time I would get angry and stuff with them a lot, so...I don't know. But I guess I see that as me voicing my, you know, what I wanted and of what I wasn't getting. [0:12:05] And I wasn't able to change that until recently. But then...but now it's like so much has happened, I guess they're both kind of numb and just we're kind of taking it slowly.

Although living together is not taking it slowly, I guess. I don't know. Maybe it is. (laughs). Yeah, but other than that, I really see us, like...and I don't know what an ideal relationship looks like, but I feel like in other couples perhaps they put in more kind of...I don't know...time, effort. I don't know.

[silence 0:13:00 0:14:26] But I don't know what to do about this...about the aspects that are missing. (sneeze) Excuse me. I mean if they're missing, they're missing, right? (laughs) Like, I make...I'm, like, more emotional and (laughs) that's just not his nature. And I can't become suddenly more intellectual, you know.

So... [0:15:02] I mean I guess I could stop seeing him as a father figure and more as an equal. (laughs) I don't know how to make that happen. I mean I do sometimes when I kind of take over, like, in the kitchen or something. (laughs) But, like, I don't know if that's adequate. (sniffle)

[silence 0:15:44 0:16:08] And not looking up to him too much, maybe. Not leaning on him too much. I try to do that. I mean (silence) it's just that in some aspects he really is, you know, my superior so...I don't...I have to look up to him, you know. (laughs)

THERAPIST: How is he your superior?

CLIENT: Well, you know, like, he's read more books or, like, if I have any question about, you know, some political aspect, like, you know, some politics in Nepal. Then...you know, I could do research on my own and I do. But it's also...it also helps to ask him, you know, because he's right there. (laughs) [:0:17:00]

THERAPIST: Well people have different...you know, a couple doesn't have the same knowledge base. No two people have the same knowledge base. Some people have...I mean you're certainly a superior in your language on writing and authors and so forth. And come people come in with different, you know, professions and knowledge. I'm not...so I'm not sure how you mean that that makes them superior.

CLIENT: Yeah, I don't know. But in my head...

THERAPIST: In your head, yes.

CLIENT: ...I think of him... (laughs) Yeah. Maybe it's got to do with patriarchy, just... (laughs) [silence 0:17:39 0:17:54] I mean I don't know how to...not to...maybe it is possible, but... [silence 0:18:00 0:18:08] Maybe he gives off a vibe too that, you know, it's not all in my head. (laughs)

THERAPIST: I'm sure he does. And I'm sure that there's a dynamic [unintelligible 0:18:18].

CLIENT: So...I don't know. Not everyone gives of that vibe.

THERAPIST: No, but you're also bringing that. You're experiencing him that way. It's both.

CLIENT: Yeah, like, when he talks and I'm gathering, he really does come across as, you know, like, "Okay, I'm going to tell you something and now if you have thought about...or, you know, my reading...this is really just let me share this very important piece of information, because you guys are just running around in circles."

And that probably is true, you know, that he...that it does come across as, you know, kind of...I don't know. [0:19:03] I don't want to say anything negative, but... (laughs)

THERAPIST: But you don't want to say anything negative?

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: You're not supposed to say negative things in here?

CLIENT: No, I mean I don't want to be an [unintelligible 0:19:16] or something. Let's see...comes across as...okay, I don't tend to be...

THERAPIST: Would you want to say that?

CLIENT: Yeah, because I know the sweet side. (laughs) I mean that's negative...is not being sweet of course, but... (sniffle) [silence 0:19:36 0:19:49] I don't know. Isn't it funny, like, you want confidence in a man and this and that, and when they are, then you think that they're superior. (laughs) Isn't...that's not true though. [0:20:03] (silence) I guess he could be a bit more humble at times, but, you know, like, not really dictate, you know...

THERAPIST: Yeah, I have a couple of thoughts about...with Chris (ph) and for you. I really think that couple's therapy can help you guys.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: I think it can help you as a couple and I also think it can help you personally. I really...it's a very...it's a sort of a strong recommendation. Ultimately, you can do whatever you want with a recommendation.

CLIENT: Sure.

THERAPIST: And obviously you're not the only person to make the decision.

CLIENT: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah, no...definitely...like, if you can give me the information, I can start talking to Chris (ph) and we'll see. (laughs) [0:21:09]

THERAPIST: I have a really...I have two colleagues I really think are great couple's therapists. I can check with them about their availability.

CLIENT: Okay, yeah. That would be very helpful, thank you. So...but you would continue as...alongside that? Okay.

THERAPIST: Yeah. Yeah, you and I would meet and then you would meet, you know, with the couple's therapist.

CLIENT: Okay, all right.

THERAPIST: Yeah, this is protected.

CLIENT: Yeah. (laughs)

THERAPIST: What I was...so, yeah. What I was also thinking is that, you know, that you've had...as we've talked about, you've had so many relationships where the roles are so complicated and not clear. You know, like, your mother is your mother. [0:22:03] Your Siamese twin, is she your mother? Is she your daughter? There's so much confusion about roles and multiple roles in one relationship.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I think that's sort of what's sort of happening with Chris, (ph) too.

CLIENT: Mm-hmm.

THERAPIST: But that you don't see yourself or each other as primarily equals is definitely a problem.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And it's a problem for you as a couple. For you individually, it's interesting and something we need to think about.

CLIENT: Yeah. Maybe I don't see anyone as an equal. (laughs)

THERAPIST: [unintelligible 0:22:48] [silence 0:22:50 0:23:27]

CLIENT: I don't know. I feel like I'm, you know, kind of a work in progress, so (laughs) I feel like, you know, I'm not done yet. So I can't really stand next to someone (sniffle) and be very definite, you know. And know for sure that this is who I am.

And with their search and they're definite, this is who they are. [0:24:02] (breath) But I'm not there yet, so (breath) I don't know why it has to be a comparison or, like, a match. (silence)

THERAPIST: Well I think you like to have someone that you look up to and it also make you feel inadequate.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah, it always goes hand-in-hand. I don't know why. (laughs) Why? (laughs) Why do I feel inadequate? (silence)

THERAPIST: Well it's hard to see yourself as a woman with choices and with power. [0:25:01]

CLIENT: Why? (laughs) [silence 0:25:05 0:25:55] So if I see that I have choices about, I won't feel inadequate?

THERAPIST: Yes, for certainly you'll feel more adequate.

CLIENT: Hmm.

THERAPIST: I don't know where this "not an intellectual" comes from.

CLIENT: By having only intellectuals as friends. (laughs)

THERAPIST: By having what?

CLIENT: Only intellectuals as friends. I'm trying to, like, expand my friend base but it happens very, very slowly. (sniffle)

THERAPIST: But why aren't you an intellectual, too?

CLIENT: I don't know. PHD...I don't have any interest in getting one.

THERAPIST: That's what makes you an intellectual?

CLIENT: It's really not just in my head. (laughs) I promise you that. (laughs) [0:27:02]

THERAPIST: I'm sure it's in some people's heads with PhD's. I have no doubt.

CLIENT: Like, really, the...I should give myself props or I should feel quite bold for doing this when I went [unintelligible 0:27:16], but I think it was Chris (ph) that I was telling you about going to this gentleman's tea, right, at my professor friend's house. And everyone else was a professor there.

And they're all just...you know, they're very privileged in that way. But, you know, they don't look at me. They don't talk. They don't listen. You know, they're not really speaking that much or if I am, you know, I have to very carefully weight my words and all that. I don't know. But...

THERAPIST: Well, A, that may be true...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...but they don't represent all of society. [0:28:03]

CLIENT: Yeah. Only the...but that I find most interesting apparently (laughs) and seek out. Sorry, I interrupted you.

THERAPIST: No, no, no. But that's an interesting comment.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: I also said that I wanted to know more about that. But the other piece of it is I think that you...because you feel the way you do, you probably don't project a sense of security and knowledge [crosstalk 0:28:28].

CLIENT: Yeah, absolutely.

THERAPIST: And so, people pick up on that.

CLIENT: Yeah, they do. Yeah. Like, all he did was ask my name...this guy...this professor. And he was like...and I was like, "Why?" (laughs) Everyone was like...even my friend was like, "He's just asking your name. What's wrong with that?" I was like, "Well, well, you know." And, you know, he asked for both my first and last name. [0:29:06]

And then was like, "Well, you know, just, you know, in case you, you know, were thinking if you've heard of me, you have not, because I have not, you know, published my work yet." You know, I'm not finished with my piece yet. (laughs) So it's just like, [unintelligible 0:29:19] and such a deep sense of insecurity and, like, inadequacy is there and probably comes out.

So...and my friends have, you know, okay, in comparison...bad, bad, bad idea, but, you know, they are so...they lack this whole thing of me. You know, like, this insecurity so much that...so yes. Monday...yeah...on Monday I found out that my...one of my colleagues, she was in the year after me in MSU (ph)...I think I might have mentioned her here before. [0:30:04]

But she recently got married to this [unintelligible 0:30:10]. He's her age, but he's written, like, two novels. So she got interviewed by the newspaper in Nepal and she posted a link to that online. And, you know, Chris (ph) was so condescending like the whole day.

He's like, "This article says absolutely nothing. It's just like, you know, these two people in this restaurant," which is true. I mean the article didn't really cover much. It just had a very nice photo of her. She's very pretty. She is. She's gorgeous. She's half German and half Nepalese.

THERAPIST: (laughs) I wasn't questioning it, but this, "Well, it was a nice photo of her. She's very pretty."

CLIENT: Well she is. I mean, Yeah. I mean the article said, you know, like, she's putting the finishing touches on her first novel and, you know, it's all, like, "Oh yeah, our relationship's good. And it's nice to have an editor right at home." [0:31:04] It wasn't much at all. It really lacked any substance, but, you know, it's pretty, you know, good publicity for nothing.

But, you know, still. (laughs) So I'm saying, like, I would totally, like, die if that happened to me. If, like...it wouldn't. It would never...but never as in, you know, not until I have something in hand. But, you know, I don't have anything in hand and that would just completely even prevent any idea of doing anything like this.

But in her case, it doesn't. Also, you know, she comes from a much more stable family...very privileged and this and that. But, you know, like, she's also psychologically sound. (laughs) You know.

THERAPIST: [Unintelligible 0:31:57]

CLIENT: That was the segue but...I really don't know. [0:32:05] I just tell myself to be bold, but I don't always succeed in that. (laughs) Well, you know, like, I think I've said this before. Like, I want to be humble too, because I don't want to fall smack on my face again. (laughs) But you've said, you know, don't do extremes. (laughs)

But...and maybe I don't know how to be in the middle, like, I wonder, like, what that feels like to be humble and confident and bold at the same time. (silence) I've tried to practice it. I wonder if it feels like saying, "I know this and only this, because I've worked on it or thought about it for a few years now. But I know absolutely nothing on anything else." (laughs) [0:33:08]

Does that sound confident and humble? But people are very, very, like, dismissive. It's just not...not just in my head. Like, we go to this thing that is this discussion thing that happens every week and the man who started it, he's very old. Like, he's like in his 60's.

I said something about...and this about...we were talking about patriarchy. (laughs) And he just came down on me...yeah, for saying something. And so that's just not with my head, like, you know, he...yeah. [0:34:03]

THERAPIST: Well, yeah, I mean I guess what you're saying is there are people who can act like this, but you're sort of seeing it as universal. And there are people who are condescending in the world. I'm not questioning that there's no one in the world who's not condescending.

CLIENT: Yeah. And I...maybe there's not even a connection between that and my feeling of inadequacy, I wonder. I just [unintelligible 0:34:44] my own judgment of myself, maybe.

THERAPIST: Well I guess the other thing is that people who are condescending typically have their own sense of inadequacy.

CLIENT: Probably. [0:35:01] (crying)

THERAPIST: Why else do you need to be condescending?

CLIENT: I don't know.

THERAPIST: What's the function of putting somebody else down?

CLIENT: Yeah, it didn't make yourself look on top.

THERAPIST: [Unintelligible 0:35:13]. I mean most people aren't mean for the sake of being mean.

CLIENT: Yeah. Hmm. But I just wonder, like, if it's that...if this feeling has become such a...has...I mean that attached...that feeling of not being an intellectual. It's become this kind of...made a home for itself in my head or heart in my psyche. It's become, like, my calling card perhaps because of being with Chris (ph). [0:36:04] I don't want to blame, but I know it sounds like I'm blaming him.

I just...I'm just wondering, like, before he came on the scene all the recent times when we were, like, physically separate...when he was far away, I just wonder if I didn't feel so inadequate or judged all the time. I don't know. Yeah, I don't know if I can answer that. [silence 0:36:39 0:37:03] Do you think that might be possible or probably not?

THERAPIST: Possible?

CLIENT: That feeling that sort of has something to do with Chris (ph).

THERAPIST: Yeah. Do you...all right. Do you question that?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But what do you question about that?

CLIENT: Like, for sure it sounds like I'm blaming him...a very big problem. That's my own...

THERAPIST: Oh, are you asking whether Chris (ph) makes you feel inadequate? Is that the question?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Because it...the question you asked was a little bit different. The question is does my feeling inadequate have something to do with Chris (ph)? I was thinking...I was taking it as, is part of the reason that you're drawn to him because of your sense of inadequacy, which is different than saying that Chris (ph) makes you feel inadequate. Do you see what I'm saying?

CLIENT: Well, this could be true.

THERAPIST: I think both are true.

CLIENT: Yeah. [0:38:00]

THERAPIST: Although, I don't usually like the term "makes me feel a certain way," because no one really makes you feel a certain way. People can treat you in a way that leads to how you feel.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But there's still...you know, someone needs to treat you a certain way and then you need to take it in, in a particular way based on your own feelings.

CLIENT: Yeah, I know. Yeah.

THERAPIST: But this one up, one down-manship that plays out in a lot of your relationships and about yourself, certainly plays out in your relationship with Chris (ph). And it takes two to tango. I mean he has that in him too.

CLIENT: Yeah, I know.

THERAPIST: It's not just you.

CLIENT: Yeah. But if we work on that aspect, I don't know if we'll necessarily get rid of my always measuring myself in others...to everyone. [0:39:03]

THERAPIST: If we get rid of what aspect?

CLIENT: I'll work on that, like, the relationship with Chris (ph).

THERAPIST: Oh, I agree.

CLIENT: Oh.

THERAPIST: I agree. My referral comes for a couple reasons. First of all, I think it will help your relationship. Second of all, I think of very much as individual therapy and couple's therapy is really working in tandem that you can work on personal issues in both. And that it's sort of extra bang for the buck so to speak.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And I agree working in a couple's therapy in that it would sort of just change that for you. And so...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...I agree this is something very, very deep seeded in you.

CLIENT: And I wish I could get rid of it. (laughs) I don't know how, but... [silence 0:40:03 0:40:28] Do you think if I achieve something I'll feel less insecure?

THERAPIST: I don't know.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I don't have the answer to that. I do typically find that over time sort of having different, like, and having things happen in your life can impact how you feel about yourself. But something like this which is so deep seeded, I don't think that, like, one or two successes is going to fundamentally change how you feel. [0:41:01]

CLIENT: Hmm.

THERAPIST: Is that bad news?

CLIENT: It's news. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Do you question that?

CLIENT: Well, no. I just wonder, like, I'm sure there is a good aspect of this news that...but, you know, if it's something that I should have to do myself for myself. So maybe that should make me feel more powerful. (laughs) That it's in my control. I don't know.

THERAPIST: But is true I think that your tendency is to look outside of yourself to affect change inside.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And one...I mean you're deeply committed to this process in here...

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: ...and looking at...and reflecting inside yourself, so what I just said isn't entirely true.

CLIENT: Well, it used to be true for me.

THERAPIST: Like, if you really, you know, had a pretty life and, you know, things like this.

CLIENT: Well, I used to think that, but...I don't know. So what would...so you're saying just having to look inside myself will have...can change some things that are deep seeded or can it never go away? I don't know.

THERAPIST: We should...you know, I started late and I'm wondering if I can make up. I started almost 10 minutes late, could I make up the time for you next time maybe [crosstalk 0:43:12] minutes?

CLIENT: Sure. Sure.

THERAPIST: Is that okay?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I'm really sorry about that. That was [crosstalk 0:43:17].

CLIENT: Yeah, no problem.

THERAPIST: Okay.

CLIENT: Okay. Still warm. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Yeah, it's very cold out. Take care now.

CLIENT: You too.

END TRANSCRIPT