Client "S" Therapy Session Audio Recording, January 28, 2013: Client discusses her relationship and moving in with her boyfriend, admitting she needs to do so only to afford to keep paying her mother's rent. Client discusses how she might be living in denial. trial

in Psychoanalytic Psychotherapy Collection by Dr. Tamara Feldman; presented by Tamara Feldman, 1972- (Alexandria, VA: Alexander Street, 2014, originally published 2014), 1 page(s)

TRANSCRIPT OF AUDIO FILE:


BEGIN TRANSCRIPT:

THERAPIST: Hi. Come on in.

(pause, background noise)

CLIENT: How are you?

THERAPIST: Good. Thank you. (pause)

CLIENT: I haven't called that doctor you suggested for the couple's therapy. (sniffs)

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I'm still working on Chris (ph) . (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: But I don't know. I don't really feel I don't want to bother him, you know. (laughs) But I just feel like bad. [00:01:05]

THERAPIST: Feel like bad, like not wanting to bother him?

CLIENT: Yeah. Like he has so much to do.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: And I'm adding to the confusion. (laughs) I feel very unsure, like very unsteady with respect to like being in his life. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It's a very weird feeling. (pause) I was just asking him the other day like, "How do you place yourself with your colleagues?" Like, so just to get a sense of how worried he is about his career. Or like how other people think about comparing themselves and all that. So like he has a good objective perspective that he's not published as much as his other colleagues, but he does more (inaudible at 00:02:26) work.

And like but then there are people he knows that work constantly. They're always on you know, gchat (ph) . They are always working. They are always putting out papers. And he's, you know, telling me about them. And I kind of feel guilty for Like I wonder if I keep him from doing that. Like if I should leave him then he would work like those people and like, you know, if that is what he wants then he would be able to achieve more. You know?

I feel very nervous about it. But he says, "You know, it's nice." You know like he wants to do a lot of other things and not just work all the time. He wants to engage in politics and he wants to not just produce academic papers, but like (sniffs) write for other mediums. And he wants to spend time with me. [00:03:41]

But all of that makes me feel very nervous. You know? Like I don't, I'm not sure or I don't know if I deserve it and yeah.

THERAPIST: Deserve?

CLIENT: Like him to be around so much. (laughs) It's weird. Like, you know, when he wasn't around I would be, like a couple of years ago, I would complain about it and feel, you know, hold on to that angst or whatever and feel very comfortable in a weird way that, yeah, he doesn't have time to spend with me. You know? And then just getting used to that. And now that he has time to spend with me I feel very nervous. (laughs, pause) [00:04:49]

THERAPIST: Nervous about having his attention?

CLIENT: Yeah. Too much pressure. I'm not sure if I wanted to Like I just feel very weird and anxious about it. Like, you know, that I'm keeping him from working. That he should work instead of spending time with me because he will succeed if he works. And, you know, I don't know. (laughs, long pause) [00:06:18]

I guess I feel nervous a lot. (laughs) I don't know why. (pause, sigh, long pause) I suppose I wonder if it has to do with not feeling like I'm his equal. [00:07:25]

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: Maybe I would feel nervous even if I did feel I was his equal.

THERAPIST: You do sound like you feel like an underling.

CLIENT: Yeah. (long pause) I don't know. It's just weird. I feel weird a lot about a lot of things. (laughs, pause) I just want to dig a hole and crawl inside and not come out for a very long time. (laughs) [00:08:28]

THERAPIST: What would you be hiding from?

CLIENT: Everyone. (laughs) Mirrors and your reflections and not know what people think about me and stuff. (pause) Like last night there was a protest for something and I was there. And like this was something I felt very strongly about, emotional about. And they pointed the camera at me and I spoke a little bit and then they put that video online.

And I saw it this morning and I'm like cringing and I scream every time I think about it.

Because I look so awkward and like so nervous and I just look like a mess. (laughs) Whereas other people are so poised and they speak so well. They articulate themselves so well. You know, very normal, very adult, very calm. And I'm just like, I'm so awkward. (laughs) [00:09:48]

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: And I think about it and I just scream every time I think about it. (pause, sigh) I mean I like going to such things like, you know, and I feel it's important too. And there is all this negative stuff in the media and it's important to lend your voice to say something positive and instead however few words or however small your gathering, it does reach people.

So it's not that I want to stop doing it. I just wish I wouldn't feel so awkward after having done it. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And it's not so bad. Like some other girl heard what I was saying and she gave me her business card. She was like, "Girl, let's meet up. Let's hang out." So it's not that people Maybe they see that I am a bit awkward and shy, but it doesn't prevent them from wanting to know more. You know? [00:11:04]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And that's a positive. But I just get so overwhelmed by thinking about myself like that that I just can't function for several minutes. (laughs, pause) I don't know why there's this acute sense of whatever it is. (laughs) I don't know what it is. (pause) I just want to be confident and bold and I don't think I'm naturally like that. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm. (pause) [00:12:04]

CLIENT: I mean even just thinking just for a bit about last weekend when I was telling you about crashing that gentlemen's [tea] (ph) or whatever.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know, in those scenarios where I'm sitting with a bunch of say men, you know, who are intellectuals, it's like I'm just telling myself, if I get something out of it, great. I should sit there and just kind of, you know, swallow the thing about them not letting me speak or listening to me or looking at me.

I should just swallow that because if I'm learning something and if that's important to me. But I shouldn't keep thinking, "Oh I should just leave." And, you know, "I'm intruding," and this and that. (laughs) I waste a lot of energy thinking negatively. It's become such a pattern. (laughs, pause) I don't know. (pause) I just think my temperament is really shy. [00:13:43]

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: (sigh) I just wonder if it's something like I cannot change. (sigh) I don't know.

THERAPIST: I guess I'm struck by the question, because I would think that you were a better judge of your temperament that I would be.

(phone ringing)

CLIENT: Well, I might not be able to be objective. That's all. Because right now I'm very critical.

(pause, phone ringing)

THERAPIST: So you feel I could be objective about your temperament?

CLIENT: What?

THERAPIST: I could be objective about your temperament?

CLIENT: Yeah. (laughs)

THERAPIST: How would I assess what your temperament is? How would I assess that?

CLIENT: I don't know. Like a few weeks ago I asked you if you think my temperament is, you know, sad. You know, I have a tendency to be sad and depressed.

THERAPIST: Depressed not sad.

CLIENT: Yeah. Depressed.

THERAPIST: (inaudible at 00:14:51)

CLIENT: Yeah. And you said you didn't.

THERAPIST: That's true. I had a stronger feeling of that, about that.

CLIENT: Yeah. (pause, sigh) I don't know. (pause)

THERAPIST: The main part of the point is that these moments, and there are many of these moments, that you look outside yourself for self definition.

CLIENT: Hm. What do you mean?

THERAPIST: Well by asking me to tell you whether you're a shy person.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I feel like that's something that you know from the inside out, not the outside in.

CLIENT: Hm. (pause) Why do I ask these questions? (laughs)

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: Again, (laughs) I'm just so unsure. I feel very unsure about myself, I suppose. (laughs) It's not a good feeling. [00:16:07]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: You want to get rid of it as quickly as possible. (sniffs, pause) I don't know. (sigh) I guess public speaking is not my forte maybe. It's a skill that I haven't acquired. (laughs) I guess I could think of it that way.

THERAPIST: Well it's not clear if it's that or if it's confidence.

CLIENT: Hm. Well you require confidence for public speaking.

THERAPIST: There's confidence in public speaking, but I don't think all public speaking is simply confidence.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like I think it has other skills attached to it too.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. How do I become confident? (laughs) [00:17:18]

THERAPIST: By stop being so unconfident.

CLIENT: And how do I do that?

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: (laughs, pause)

THERAPIST: Well there's something that makes you anxious and inhibited.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And you began today by talking about the couples therapist and not wanting to bother Chris (ph) . And feeling like he has important things to do. And I almost feel like it's like a kid who feels like their Dad's at work.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: "I don't want to call my Dad. I don't know. He's got a really important job."

CLIENT: Yes. (laughs) I feel like that. (pause) And feeling unworthy of their attention. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I don't know. I just want to shake that feeling with Chris (ph) . And it's like I want to feel that way about him because that's how I see him. And not seeing him like that would be a fundamental change in our relationship and in just the way see him. (laughs) [00:18:45]

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: I mean maybe I'd be more confident bothering someone who was not so important. (laughs) You know?

THERAPIST: Yes. I think that's absolutely true.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Or maybe you could see them as so important, but yourself as equally important.

CLIENT: I don't know if I would feel equal to anyone in this world. (laughs)

THERAPIST: That's quite a statement.

CLIENT: I know. (pause) Especially right now. I just feel really very, very nervous. (laughs, pause) It's just I'm nervous in my own skin. So I want to hop out of it and have at someone else's. (laughs) Or nothing. You know? (pause) [00:20:02]

THERAPIST: Do you think you've felt especially nervous the last few days?

CLIENT: Yeah, I mean (sigh) Yeah. It's just I wonder if [that something to do was] (ph), I have a deadline tomorrow for class, my class. And I have to submit something and I just didn't know what to submit. And then all of a sudden yesterday or two days ago, the deadline, I'm like, "Oh, I'll submit chapter one," which is, you know, the hardest thing to finish.

It's in shambles. And now I have just one day to work on it. And I don't know what. But it's, I mean, just like being nervous that I'll lose my chance with the professor. You know? Because he's supposedly a very good teacher. And I just don't want to lose my chance. (laughs) [00:21:15]

So I'm just nervous about that. Like actually very, very nervous getting started and yeah. Thinking consciously about working instead of subconsciously, which is a lot easier for me.

THERAPIST: Hm.

CLIENT: And then with this protest and looking, watching myself on the video. (laughs) And then there's Chris (ph) . And like last night also, like he wanted to listen to this classical Nepalese singer. He's very good. And Chris (ph) and I both like him a lot.

Unfortunately, (laughs) when I was seeing Victor (ph), he's also a lot more into classical music, Western more than Nepalese. So he played me that song and like I guess used it to seduce me. (laughs) So that I have very, very strong associations with that singer and yeah. [00:22:39]

So for the longest time I couldn't listen to the singer at all. But then, thankfully, I was able to. That's who I listen to most of the time when I work. And I've been able to dissociate because I guess I'm not consciously listening.

But then last night like right before we went to bed, Chris (ph) was listening to it and I just started crying. (laughs) And like he felt very upset and kind of didn't talk to me and went off to sleep. And he said he felt very powerless and this and that. And I told him, you know, "I try not to cry in front of you too much." And he's like, "That's very noble of you." (laughs) And I don't know if he was being sarcastic or not, but I took it as that. [00:23:37]

So it's like I feel like, you know, I've done this thing where I've made a mess of things. And we shouldn't have gotten back together in the first place because for most couples this would be a very big thing. You know, they wouldn't get back together after such a thing. So, you know, I just feel responsible for Chris's (ph) feeling powerless or feeling bad. It's like, "What a waste." You know, he could be thinking about work.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But, yeah, I just feel like a fool. (laughs) I feel that way for a long time, but like when I've actually been foolish then it's even more, like it confirms my fears. (laughs)

THERAPIST: And how have you been foolish in this case?

CLIENT: Well just getting seduced by him, you know, by Victor (ph) .

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: (sigh) Willingly. (laughs) [00:24:44]

THERAPIST: Is Chris (ph) foolish to be with you?

CLIENT: Well like I feel like, subconsciously I feel like Victor (ph) duped us both.

THERAPIST: You and Chris?

CLIENT: Yeah. So I do feel (laughs) there's a tiny bit of solidarity here. For, you know, there's two fools together. You know?

THERAPIST: Mm. Then Victor (ph) is the powerful one in that situation.

CLIENT: Yeah. He's had no losses. He's just the way that he used to be and he's moved in. And he was in Greece and hosting (inaudible at 00:25:38). (laughs)

THERAPIST: Didn't Chris (ph) have a girlfriend who also cheated on him with one of his friends.

CLIENT: No, it wasn't cheating. Like, it was Victor (ph) . (laughs)

THERAPIST: It was Victor (ph) again?

CLIENT: He just liked her and she was at a very weird stage in her life. She was experimenting apparently. And so she made out with him because he liked her a lot, but she didn't like him back. But anyway, so they made out and then like a few weeks later or something she made out with Victor (ph) . But she liked him for like a few days or something. And so Chris (ph) was upset about that.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: It wasn't the same.

THERAPIST: I see.

CLIENT: Exactly the same, but it was like it was the same thing in that, you know, triangle.

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: And it was Victor (ph) and Chris (ph) . (laughs) I knew about her. [00:26:39]

THERAPIST: I guess one of the reasons it came to my mind is that it seems like Chris (ph) has his own issues with triangles. Even the triangle with you, him and your mother. I mean it's a different kind of triangle.

CLIENT: Hm.

THERAPIST: But he seems very drawn to these triangles.

CLIENT: Hm.

THERAPIST: And I guess I'm saying that only because, I'm not here to psychoanalyze Chris (ph) .

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But I guess I'm saying it because it's very hard for you to see that, and I've said this before, that people have their own motivation and interests in what they do. And they allow themselves to be influenced. I mean they embroil themselves in the situation. They are not simply victims.

CLIENT: Hm. So what do you mean by that in this scenario?

THERAPIST: Well when you were saying that you and Chris (ph) are both sort of the victims of Victor's (ph) .

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You know, you were the fools of Victor's (ph) shenanigans or whatever.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: Machinations. I guess I'm just, and the thing that we keep coming back to and back to, is does one person hold the power and the other person helpless? [00:27:39]

CLIENT: Yeah. So you mean to say Chris (ph) is not a victim in this situation.

THERAPIST: Yeah. I mean to say that Chris (ph) that has his own complicated motivations for doing what he does and getting himself drawn into situations the way he gets drawn into them. And making the choices he does.

CLIENT: Hm. So you mean he shouldn't have, perhaps not, trusted Victor (ph) after that?

THERAPIST: I guess. I mean we could sort of I hadn't really thought about practically.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean it was a crappy thing for Victor (ph) to have done in terms of him supposedly being Chris's (ph) friend.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So, yeah, I guess I feel like for you there's a blurred line between people treating people badly and having sort of so much power over them.

CLIENT: Hm. Yeah.

THERAPIST: Like it's not to excuse Victor's (ph) behavior, or like Chris (ph) wanted it. (laughs)

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: I mean I'm not (inaudible at 00:28:38) suggesting that. But it's sort of this way that Victor (ph) has power, but Chris (ph) has made choices in his life.

CLIENT: Yeah. But he's chosen to be with me.

THERAPIST: Yes.

CLIENT: He could've said, "Absolutely no. I can never get over that." But he didn't. I think, I think what happened was he didn't think things through. He didn't. And that can be wonderfully powerful. It makes him feel powerful. You know? If he were to sit down and like picture us together, obviously he would, you know, completely fall apart and never even think of getting back together. But he doesn't do that.

And he also doesn't, didn't at the time, was saying, "Let's get back together." Not even saying, just falling into that pattern, realize that there will be moments when I will think of Victor (ph) even as Chris (ph) is around and cry and, you know, all this. But he'll have to go through it and feel powerless. (laughs) [00:29:43]

Yeah, I just have that pattern of thinking. I just fall, slip right into it that, you know, when someone has wronged me they And, you know, stupid internet, you can follow them. And like, "Oh they're doing just fine." You know? (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm hm.

CLIENT: You know, and they seem to be the victors and I seem to be the loser.

THERAPIST: What have they won and what have you lost?

CLIENT: What have they?

THERAPIST: If you're a victor, you're a victor of something right? So I'm wondering, what have they won and what have you lost?

CLIENT: Well I know I lost hours and hours and hours of thinking and worse. I developed patterns of negative thinking because of that. So I'm in, you know, a quagmire of, yeah, like a spider web. (laughs) And they have won as in that they are moving ahead. [00:30:46]

And, you know, I guess all of us fear that we didn't produce meaning or we didn't change someone. We weren't as special to someone as they were to us.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: Or they don't think about us and they've forgotten us. (laughs) All those things.

THERAPIST: So being a loser is having another person have more significance to you than you have to them?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That's an interesting definition.

CLIENT: (laughs) Well to me that's what's important, I guess. Or at least when you are playing this game of love or something.

THERAPIST: Here's the thing that I've got stuck in my head right now.

CLIENT: Okay. [00:31:48]

THERAPIST: Along the lines of what we were talking about in people feeling victims and people having power. And I was thinking well certainly the one grouping of people who are easy victims are children. Children can be very easy victims. I mean they are powerless. They cannot be self sufficient the way adults can.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And so I think of children that way. But then I started thinking about the culture you come from and then US culture. And certainly the idea of autonomy and freedom is like the essence of US culture. That you are free to do whatever you want.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Which I think that's true and not true.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: All cultures exercise influence, social influence. But I was thinking more about, you know, Nepalese culture. Certainly like when your mother was growing up.

CLIENT: Hm.

THERAPIST: And the pressure and lack of power that, you know, for example, a woman has of who she would marry at a young age.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: That it's not I mean there are certainly limits on autonomy here, but for the most part (laughs) you can say, "I'm not going to do that." [00:32:50]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But there is much less autonomy and much greater influence by others on your behavior.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And so I just then started thinking about, well I guess then you could see those adults can be victims in that way. I mean certainly adults can be victims of genocide.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And, you know, governments, oppression. So it's not like I don't think adults can be victims. I mean certainly they can. But I just started thinking about that more and I wanted to share that with you.

CLIENT: Yeah. I mean, it's true. It's true that she was kind of a victim in that sense. Truly. It's not like anything in her mind that she was a victim. She really was in that sense. And now living here we're supposed to not think that way. You know? We're supposed to feel free. And for the most part we are. But I guess it's not, that it is the psychological hang ups of not being free previously in our lives, like half our lives, in my Mom's case, most of her life, that are strong. [00:34:04]

And maybe that's also why I have hang ups. Not feeling like an adult, not wanting to be an adult. Because like a child can be victimized very easily so my childlike behavior also speaks to my feeling like a victim. (laughs)

THERAPIST: You're aware of the time?

CLIENT: Yeah. No, I just didn't know if we had more time.

THERAPIST: Yeah, we still have almost fifteen minutes.

CLIENT: Yeah I don't know if maybe that's why I feel like a child, like actively or maybe not so actively, but just slip into that pattern.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: I guess that's what I find most embarrassing about myself. That, you know, awkward, silly and childlike.

THERAPIST: But you don't always experience yourself that way. You've described at times you feel arrogant, but times when you're very sort of vocal and forceful in your opinions. [00:35:18]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Even in public arenas.

CLIENT: Yeah. That's true. Yeah. But I guess when I'm feeling small I slip into that image of myself.

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: As a child who can't really do it. (laughs) Or can't protect herself. (pause) And that's when I guess I need the most kind of assurance. And that's when, you know, the nervousness kicks in and I ask you, "Am I this? Am I that? Why, why, why?" I cannot Like the machinery up here just shuts down. (laughs)

I can't think for myself with any amount of confidence in anything that happens up here. (laughs) I just feel it very intensely so I just wish I could reduce the intensity of it. You know? [00:36:32]

THERAPIST: The other thing that's going through my mind, which I imagine is related on some level. We never, I don't think, fully talked about, is whether you were interested Well we did talk about it financially and logistically, but whether you would continue to be interested in trying to add another session?

CLIENT: Yeah, it's just right now I don't know if I could do it financially.

THERAPIST: That's the main concern.

CLIENT: Yeah. Maybe a little later. I'm working toward it.

THERAPIST: I think there is, and it came to my mind too, is I thought some of the issue I don't want to incentivize you moving in with Chris (ph) for financial savings, but I guess I thought about it too because I thought that it would be more financially feasible living with Chris (ph) . But I could be wrong about that. I mean, you could need your money for other things too. [00:37:26]

CLIENT: Yeah. You know, like I have moved in and the other people have found a place finally, or someone found a place for them. (laughs) After, you know, three months of my not living there and paying rent. But, you know, my Mom is kind of not in a good place at all. Like she, I have to pay her whole rent and all that. (laughs) And I only as a student make enough to pay her rent.

THERAPIST: When did you start paying her rent again?

CLIENT: It's been like a few months.

THERAPIST: Oh.

CLIENT: Yeah. (laughs) Because she was getting unemployment and then she, you know, obviously she's not going to get it for any more than they allow. Which [is only right.] But now she's studying for exams and hoping that she'll get a job. But I certainly don't want a job right now. (laughs) After a long time I'm doing what I should have been doing. [00:38:38]

And it's not going badly. So (laughs) I mean, that's the other thing. It feels like such a compromise. Obviously, I won't feel very romantic about Chris (ph) . (laughs)

THERAPIST: I'm sorry. It feels like a compromise?

CLIENT: Well, you know, living with him because of all these financial constraints.

THERAPIST: Is that part of the reason that you moved back with him is to pay your Mom's rent?

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: You never said that.

CLIENT: Well I didn't want to articulate it out loud because then it would be true. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Oh. So when was it? Did your mother start asking you to pay her rent? How did you even know?

CLIENT: Because like she just brought the envelope. (laughs) So, yeah, I mean she can't pay her rent. She has no source of income. [00:39:40]

THERAPIST: I thought she taught.

CLIENT: That was a few years ago. A couple of years ago.

THERAPIST: She can't get on disability?

CLIENT: She's not disabled, thankfully. (laughs)

THERAPIST: I don't know about that. She probably could get on disability.

CLIENT: But she hasn't a disability.

THERAPIST: She probably could qualify for a mental disability.

CLIENT: Hm.

CLIENT: I don't know if that will damage her psychologically more. Well she just needs to pass one more exam and then she should be able to get a teaching position. Actually, I take that back. She was teaching, not years ago, this summer.

THERAPIST: I thought she was teaching recently, yeah.

CLIENT: Yeah, yeah. I don't know why that slipped my mind. Yeah, because it was only in the summer and they paid her like two thousand dollars for like the whole year or something like that. That's all that she made. It's a good position, good experience, but very, very little money. But hopefully she'll be able to get something better after she has passed this exam. [00:40:53]

THERAPIST: My head is spinning.

CLIENT: (laughs) I'm sorry.

THERAPIST: No, you shouldn't have. But it's so interesting that you wouldn't have mentioned this.

CLIENT: Well I wanted for it to be I didn't want that to be true. I live in denial. That's a big part of me. (laughs) I'm surprised that word has never come up. (laughs)

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: But I didn't want to think that I was giving up my place because of my Mom. But I mean I really don't want to say that. Even as I'm saying it I'm telling myself, "No! It's not true." (laughs) But it is. (pause) But why shouldn't I move in with him? He likes me and I like him and, you know. (sniffs) [00:41:58]

(phone ringing)

THERAPIST: Sorry. [I'll just unplug this.] (phone ringing) Okay, well what you just said was denial.

CLIENT: (laughs)

THERAPIST: Because you're denying. Well, aside from the complications of how you feel about Chris (ph), you said that was, at least the timing of it was particular.

CLIENT: What do you mean?

THERAPIST: The timing of you moving in with Chris (ph) and your mother needing rent.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: So when she hands you an envelope, at that moment how do you feel?

CLIENT: Well, now I feel good about it in the sense that, you know Well not good, but it's something to be done. Like I try not to feel burdened and all that.

THERAPIST: No, not what are you trying not to feel. (laughs) What do you feel? I mean, "I try not to feel this."

CLIENT: (laughs) Well neutral, I suppose. Like, you know, it's duty. You know? If it has to be done, it has to be done. You can't really question every single thing that you're doing or you'll be a basket case. Which maybe I already am. (laughs) Yeah, I mean, she needs it more than I do. [00:43:14]

THERAPIST: That's an interesting statement.

CLIENT: Well, actually, this might surprise you.

THERAPIST: Okay, let me hear you surprise me.

CLIENT: (laughs) Yeah, yeah. I'm buying my freedom. You know? Like I'm keeping my mother at bay. (laughs) Because it really was very messy living with her. I feel all this positive emotion towards her. You know? Love and all this affection and all that and pride and everything. I want only those to remain and like the feeling of burden and, you know, all that, I want those to be minimized. And when I pay her rent that's what I'm getting.

THERAPIST: Well, you do appreciate that buying freedom is an oxymoron? Because if it's freedom it should be free and you don't have to pay for it.

CLIENT: No. Freedom comes from the barrel of a gun. So says Mao. (laughs) [00:44:16]

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: So in this case. You know?

THERAPIST: Are you a Maoist?

CLIENT: (laughs) Sure.

THERAPIST: Really.

CLIENT: Well, yeah. I mean, you know, I appreciate, you know, the tenets of socialism. But maybe not how it was carried out in China and the USSR. But anyway, so yeah, that's what I feel like. You know? By giving this check I hereby absolve myself (laughs) of the, you know -

THERAPIST: Mm.

CLIENT: duty of living with my Mom.

THERAPIST: So you're paying her off. Like a bribe.

CLIENT: Yeah. [Well that's a dirty way of putting it.] (ph) (laughs) but I'm buying my freedom.

THERAPIST: You're paying her off to shut her up.

CLIENT: (laughs) [Dump her in the ] (ph) No just keep her at bay. Give her her own space. [00:45:19]

THERAPIST: You're paying her off so she doesn't testify in court as a witness against you.

CLIENT: (laughs) I've done nothing wrong.

THERAPIST: Well, not according to you.

CLIENT: (laughs) Well (sniffs) I haven't killed anyone, so.

THERAPIST: Well there are things you can do wrong aside from killing. Killing isn't the only crime.

CLIENT: Yeah, I'm sure of that. Some of them. (sniffs) Spying and stuff.

THERAPIST: No, no, no. I think sometimes you might think your needs could kill your mother. They would trump her needs. That there's a battle between who's needs are more important. And if your needs took precedent she would be homeless and maybe die.

CLIENT: Well, I don't want to think that far. But there already has been that narrative that my needs trumped hers because (sniffs), I mean she's got her narrative that, "Oh, I'm trying to become a teacher. And it's been, you know, all these years. And, you know, and just as I'm about to get some kind of licensure in one state. We have to move." This has happened like three times. [00:46:30]

THERAPIST: When she was with your father?

CLIENT: No because of me. Like I wanted to go to school in Ohio. And then I wanted to go to school here.

THERAPIST: But why did she have to move with you? I don't understand? (laughs)

CLIENT: Yeah, that's again, you know, like we could debate that.

THERAPIST: (laughs)

CLIENT: But at that time it felt like it would be better because (sniff) she had to move from Virginia to Ohio because she just crashed her car and lost her job. And I wasn't living with her that year, so I just felt like, what's the point of, you know again, not having family and her not having a husband. It's difficult so you do the best you can. And that was the best I could do to live with her again. (pause, sniffs) [00:47:34]

But now I've been able to realize that having my own space or living away from her is important to me or has become important to me. So, you know, it was either getting a part time job and having a place, continuing to live with my roommates and pay my Mom her rent, or I could move in with Chris (ph) and not find a job.

THERAPIST: Do you think she Does she think you have a lot of money?

CLIENT: No.

THERAPIST: So when she takes that money, do you think she feels guilty or does she feel entitled to your money?

CLIENT: No, I'm pretty sure she feels bad, but I don't know. Until she finds something, some employment, you know? (sniffs) I guess she tries to make it up by cooking for me and (laughs) yeah.

THERAPIST: I guess what I was asking in that question is, it's not clear whose is whose and who is obligated to what and who is entitled to what.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Who owns what. I think that's what I was asking both from your vantage point and then also from hers. Which ultimately is your vantage point of her anyway. [00:48:56]

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: But that's what's so confusing. Like where does obligation end and choice begin? And expectation end and gratitude begin?

CLIENT: Yeah. We try not to ask too many questions in that scenario, I guess.

THERAPIST: You don't because it's hard for you to see her separate. It's hard for you to see the two of you as separate.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: And those lines get blurred because it's hard for you to see you and her as separate people.

CLIENT: Yeah. Yeah. I see some merit in not seeing each other as separate. You know? So I do that.

THERAPIST: Except there are conflicts of needs. I mean, between any two people, two individuals, there's conflicts of needs. But I think especially between two adults who just might need different things. But if you don't even It's one thing to sort of subvert, submerge your needs but be aware of it.

CLIENT: Yeah.

THERAPIST: Versus not asking the question. Because even that's a choice. Whereas, not asking the question, the choice is never made. [00:50:07]

CLIENT: Yeah. That's a good way of living in denial, I suppose.

THERAPIST: Cecelia (ph), we are going to need to stop.

CLIENT: Okay.

THERAPIST: So I will see you on Wednesday.

CLIENT: Yes at nine.

THERAPIST: Yep. Regular time.

CLIENT: Yes.

THERAPIST: Take care.

CLIENT: Have a good day.

THERAPIST: Okay. Buh bye.

CLIENT: Bye.

END TRANSCRIPT

1
Abstract / Summary: Client discusses her relationship and moving in with her boyfriend, admitting she needs to do so only to afford to keep paying her mother's rent. Client discusses how she might be living in denial.
Field of Interest: Counseling & Therapy
Publisher: Alexander Street Press
Content Type: Session transcript
Format: Text
Original Publication Date: 2014
Page Count: 1
Page Range: 1-1
Publication Year: 2014
Publisher: Alexander Street
Place Published / Released: Alexandria, VA
Subject: Counseling & Therapy; Psychology & Counseling; Health Sciences; Theoretical Approaches to Counseling; Family and relationships; Teoria do Aconselhamento; Teorías del Asesoramiento; Denial; Nervousness; Self confidence; Adequacy; Psychoanalytic Psychology; Detached behavior; Anxiety; Psychotherapy
Presenting Condition: Detached behavior; Anxiety
Clinician: Tamara Feldman, 1972-
Keywords and Translated Subjects: Teoria do Aconselhamento; Teorías del Asesoramiento
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